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InvisibletrendalM
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Philosophical implications of "real" AI
    #4489027 - 08/03/05 11:07 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

For the sake of this argument, we must start with a few assumptions:

a) "Real" Artificial Intelligence is possible - a "conscious" technology-based Entity
b) Human-intelligence is not the only "level" of intelligence possible
c) Once created, real AI will have the ability to "reprogram" itself to increase its own abilities

Ok, now there are two parts to my question. The first deals with the implications of the actual creation of real AI, and the second deals with the implications of AI which is of vastly superior intelligence to Humans.

First

It is the mid 21st century, and human researches have just created an AI entity of human-level intelligence and cognitive abilities. The AI is able to reproduce almost every possible human mental activity, with the possible sole exception of human emotion. The AI is just above average for Human intelligence - it cannot "overpower" most humans with its intelligence.

What are the implications of a human-equivalent intelligence being created by humans? How would this change our view of ourselves (Humans) and of the Universe we live in?

Second

Near the end of the 21st century, AI "lifeforms" have become common-place on Earth and the surrounding space. By this time the original AI has grown into an intelligence vastly superior to any human in existence. The AI has discovered its own Laws of Physics, most of which are hopelessly beyond the comprehension of even the most intelligent human. As such, the AI is able to control matter on a scale that humans cannot fathom. This gives the AI "godlike" powers over Humans, in much the same way as we have "godlike" powers over the common house cat.

What implications does this have for us humans? What would it mean for us to become the second most powerful lifeform on Earth, and how would we deal with it? Would it become acceptible to think of the AI as "gods"? Would, or could, we accept AI control over our lives (again, in much the same way as I have control over my cat's life)?

What are your thoughts?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: trendal]
    #4489036 - 08/03/05 11:09 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

""For the sake of this argument, we must start with a few assumptions""

haha :smile:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: Gomp]
    #4489048 - 08/03/05 11:13 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah yeah, I know, assumptions are the mother of all fuckups :smirk:

For the sake of the argument, however, we can make a few assumptions. Consider the assumptions to mean "if this were possible..." :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: trendal]
    #4489305 - 08/03/05 12:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I've always disliiked the term artificial intelligence. How can intelligence be artificial? I don't get that.

Anyway, I don't see any major implications from either of those events, except some bruised human egos as the last remnants of anthropocentrism come crashing down.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: trendal]
    #4489307 - 08/03/05 12:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"How would this change our view of ourselves (Humans) and of the Universe we live in?"
it would make it more realistic.

"What would it mean for us to become the second most powerful lifeform on Earth, and how would we deal with it? "
historically strong groups dominate weak groups.
we probably wouldn't deal with it well.

"Would it become acceptible to think of the AI as "gods"?"
i imagine human beings would resent the power of the AI, not venerate it.

" Would, or could, we accept AI control over our lives (again, in much the same way as I have control over my cat's life)?"
i think humans suffer when controlled.

(personally i find the idea that ai could reprogram itself to be unrealistic. the notion that ai would function like a symbol processor or computer- instead of a neural network similar to humans'-has a long history of failing to duplicate consciousness)


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: moog]
    #4489311 - 08/03/05 12:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Well I agree with you on the artificial thing...but for the sake of clarity/simplicity I use the term "Artificial Intelligence" as it already has a fairly well-defined and understood meaning in our culture.

It should be understood to mean "human-created intelligence".


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4489336 - 08/03/05 01:03 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

(personally i find the idea that ai could reprogram itself to be unrealistic. the notion that ai would function like a symbol processor or computer- instead of a neural network similar to humans'-has a long history of failing to duplicate consciousness)

It would not have to reprogram itself, but when "procreating" it would have far more control over it's offspring than we flesh-and-blood types do.

When the initial AI decides to "design" a new AI, its "child", it wouldn't be bound to accept "whatever comes" as we humans (currently) are...but would be able to make small changes to it's own structure/programming in an attempt to create an offspring of greater intelligence than it has itself.

Thus machines could have their own form of "evolution", just like we do.

Except for AI and machines, the rate of evolution would be astronomically higher than our own evolution. In the span of a single year the AI could have "evolved" itself comparable to tens of millions of years of DNA evolution.

Basically you have to look at it like this: if humans can create an intelligence that is greater than our own...it follows that the intelligence we create should be able to create another intelligence even more powerful than itself. Again because AI would not be bound by the comparable snails-pace of DNA evolution it could "evolve" into something vastly different/superior in a very short timespan (by human standards).

Ever read any Vernor Vinge?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: trendal]
    #4489447 - 08/03/05 01:32 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

our intelligence is a by product of our holographic associative recall system hooked up with our multitimer (cerebellum) to our I/O systems.
the only part missing in today's technology is a holographic associative recall system:

we have to examine how it starts as a supervisor resonator for all the other inputs, and then records engrams (memory traces) relating threasholded significant patterns such that recall can occur when simmilar input arises.

once such a resonator/engramator is designed we will be 1/2 way to a holographic memory device, and once one is built we can expect miniaturization and efficiency to generate a consciousness platform that will outstrip ours very quickly.

what's the rush?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: trendal]
    #4489623 - 08/03/05 02:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

What are your thoughts?
______________________

About what? :tongue:

Just kidding,  :grin:

Yipee, bring it on. In fact anything at all. Just keep it comming. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: Icelander]
    #4490053 - 08/03/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Vernor Vinge- haven't heard of this dude but sounds interesting based on what you're talking about.

i dont think we need to understand consciousness to duplicate it.

imagine- one day we will be able to fully scan the brain- and understand it on the micro-level- even if we don't understand how the elements produce consciousness.

all we would have to do is program a computer simulation of the brain with all the constraints it has- and there, you have a brain; and just connect that simulation with input/output - a real body.

and, if it's simulated, the consciousness of an "artificial" brain won't be limited by the same time as our embodied minds- but by the speed of our computers.

and you could have "virtual" minds that think exponentially faster (and reproduce exponentially faster) than humans.

so i see your point.

i love wild speculation  :biggrin:


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4490203 - 08/03/05 04:19 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

true most of us don't understand television and but are good at watching it, but some of us will understand consciousness even if we don't understand god.

the computing engine will need something that is not created yet, something like an MPEG card to interrelate multiple sensors, with saved patterns inside of an on board storage.

it will do consciousness, it won't emulate it - we can do emulation already, I did a max headroom like system in the '90's. basically stored attitude used to cue up stored attitude, reacting to a spoken language feed - audio via an IBM speech engine. color vision robotics is not that hard to add either, and you know the rest exists.

it did not learn though, just reacted to a live feed, using an attitude context, and could follow multiple conversational threads at the same time. limited feed, no states of mind, but the program was 100% attitude.

if we add a self programming attitude behavior to a dynamic experience acquisitive hound, it should do more than just fetch.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4490301 - 08/03/05 04:35 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

i wonder if what we're missing is an emotion card

like this: it's possible to program representations into a computer so that it can manipulate those representations and output an action.

but those representations have no meaning for the computer- the way a map has a meaning for me (helps me get to work, or visit downtown, or go to the dentist)

my internal representations mean something for me- i think that giving value to input is what's missing.

and with this- the ability to positively/negatively reinforce synapses in the brain.

methinks "representation" is what we call the mouse who moves through a maze based on the stimulus-response of the cheese.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: trendal]
    #4490358 - 08/03/05 04:44 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

For the sake of this argument, we must start with a few assumptions:

a) "Real" Artificial Intelligence is possible - a "conscious" technology-based Entity
b) Human-intelligence is not the only "level" of intelligence possible
c) Once created, real AI will have the ability to "reprogram" itself to increase its own abilities




While a is an assumption (though looking at the way technology is developing, not that large of a leap of faith), b seems ridiculous to dispute as machines have already gathered information beyond the intelligence and perception of humans, and c is part of the definition of strong AI.

I don't really see the philosophical implications of strong AI, since strong AI doesn't go against my philosophies anyway. It only has implications if it changes theories in philosophy, but my current theories are completely compatible with AI.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineAvatarofAtavism
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4490377 - 08/03/05 04:47 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

If we can make something that takes us over in every field of experience, hey, why not. Evolution in action?

I don't think human emotion is anything other than a massive collection of past memories - genetic memory - distiled into simple compartmentalised drives? There's no reason a computer program can't make this kind of use of memory, it's just a matter showing a program how to skip over the 99% of it's memory that it doesn't need. To sort of see the patterns in its own memory.

I don't know shit about computer function though. I love AI and thinking about the nature of intelligence in general though. Seems to flow through my head most every day.


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4490403 - 08/03/05 04:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
if it's simulated, the consciousness of an "artificial" brain won't be limited by the same time as our embodied minds- but by the speed of our computers.

and you could have "virtual" minds that think exponentially faster (and reproduce exponentially faster) than humans.




You definitely should look up Vernor Vinge!

He coined the idea of a "technological singularity" a while back, and it has kind of taken hold of some parts of the Sci-Fi subculture.

The idea is simple: at some point, humans will invent a human-equivalent AI...something that is at least as capable in cognitive abilities as we humans are. Not too long after that, the first AI which is beyond human capabilities will be created.

Then that AI will create an even stronger AI, which will create another stronger AI, etc, etc, etc.

As we already discussed, AI would not be bound to human timescales. It's thought-process could move at millions of times of the human rate. Time for the AI would be "stretched out", in a sense, so that one month of human time is actually 10,000 years of subjective time for the AI.

The "singularity" is the point in time where technological change - brought on by the super-intelligent AI's - begins to move at such a pace so that no prediction of even short-term future events can take place (at least, no human predictions...the AI is a different story altogether).

Basically the pace of technological chance would become so accelerated that we humans are "left in the dust", unable to keep up with the rapidly evolving AI-dominated world.

Most sci-fi writers and computer scientists who follow this idea agree that the singularity will occur just shortly after the invention of true human-equivalent AI.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: AvatarofAtavism]
    #4490415 - 08/03/05 04:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

if a computer program sifts through past memories- how would those memories have meaning for it? if a machine is performing operations on data based on a program- the data means nothing to the machine.

i think what's important about emotion is how it interacts with the rest of the mind. personally i doubt that the rest of the mind accesses emotion so much as emotion determines how the rest of the mind learns.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: Ravus]
    #4490465 - 08/03/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
While a is an assumption (though looking at the way technology is developing, not that large of a leap of faith), b seems ridiculous to dispute as machines have already gathered information beyond the intelligence and perception of humans, and c is part of the definition of strong AI.

I don't really see the philosophical implications of strong AI, since strong AI doesn't go against my philosophies anyway. It only has implications if it changes theories in philosophy, but my current theories are completely compatible with AI.




I used those as "assumptions" simply because I expect there are people who frequent this forum who don't think that "human intelligence" is merely "advanced animal intelligence" (as I think it is).

The third "assumption" was mostly to introduce the idea that AI could re-program or otherwise improve itself at a much faster rate than DNA evolution can match. I wanted to make sure everyone was on the same ground before going into the philosophical implications :smirk:

Obviously for those of us who already have a love-addiction with technology and especially those of us who are waiting for AI will not have much of a change in our worldview when/if AI actually is invented.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineAlobar
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: trendal]
    #4490564 - 08/03/05 05:23 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Just so long as the super-all-knowing AI spawn abuse me with their super-orgasmic libidos. That would be sweet.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4490614 - 08/03/05 05:34 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
if a computer program sifts through past memories- how would those memories have meaning for it? if a machine is performing operations on data based on a program- the data means nothing to the machine.

i think what's important about emotion is how it interacts with the rest of the mind. personally i doubt that the rest of the mind accesses emotion so much as emotion determines how the rest of the mind learns.




meaning amounts to aquired associations, hence it needs to be aquisitive and associative.

emotion is memory with body triggers, if the android has any body so to speak it will have body load, and body associations, and it will be capable of it's own range of emotions and emotional overloading.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Philosophical implications of "real" AI [Re: trendal]
    #4490678 - 08/03/05 05:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"Real" Artificial Intelligence is possible - a "conscious" technology-based Entity

Intelligence is the ability to solve problems, learn new things, incorporate the learned knowledge into the solution of future problems, extrapolate generalities from specifics, and other similar activities.

We've had intelligent machines for some time now. I've created several. The trick is to make an intelligent machine sentient. That's never been done (that we're aware of) and if it ever is accomplished, it would be hard to prove the machine really is sentient. Perhaps the best test would be to observe the machine make an irrational decision that is clearly against its interests.

Anyway, my point is that I prefer the term Artificial Sentience (AS) to distinguish this as yet uninvented property from Artificial Intelligence which has been around for a while.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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