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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
"Artificial Intelligence"
    #5032699 - 12/08/05 06:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Nobody in the AI community has got a clue what "intelligence" is, yet they are trying to build it. :shake:

They even claim they are getting closer day by day! When you're there, let me know alright?


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OfflineVegas
Complicated.
Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 34
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5032947 - 12/08/05 08:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I honestly doubt they'll ever build anything that has actual intelligence. Anything they build that they claim has artificial intelligence would be simply programmed (or what have you) with the given information and knowledge that whoever created it wishes it to have. The problem is, I honestly don't see a machine being able to think and make rational decisions by itself.




Originally I had something really clever to say... but after the first sentence I just kinda lost my train of thought and rambled.


--------------------
"I smoke chronic, pop speed, get drunk, throw up, wake up in the dump, with some of my lunch
covering the front of my sweater, smellin of skunk, deader than fuck and still ever ready for drugs
I won't hesitate to take em, I hate my life, I won't ever make you wait, shit I'll take my pipe
and load it up, with the ripest nugs I sight and puff 'till the night turns to light, I'm the type
to steal prescriptions just to feel so twisted, I can't feel my skin tissue or limbs, witness
my vision's when it's shifting, bless me quick or catch my head spinning like the Exorcist

No, I don't ever wanna come down from this, escape is everything I ever wanted.
This place is where I go to get away from all of this, take me home again.
"


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 7 months, 12 days
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5032962 - 12/08/05 08:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Nobody in the AI community has got a clue what "intelligence" is, yet they are trying to build it.

And you would be an expert that is qualified to judge the AI community, because... ?

There is a large difference between intelligence and cognition.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
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Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5032963 - 12/08/05 08:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What is intelligence?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Posts: 66,006
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: dorkus]
    #5032990 - 12/08/05 08:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The ability to learn and apply knowledge


--------------------


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OfflineVegas
Complicated.
Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 34
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Shroomism]
    #5033004 - 12/08/05 08:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
The ability to learn and apply knowledge




Applying knowledge, possibly. But I doubt a machine will be able to actually learn as we do. At least not for a long while.


--------------------
"I smoke chronic, pop speed, get drunk, throw up, wake up in the dump, with some of my lunch
covering the front of my sweater, smellin of skunk, deader than fuck and still ever ready for drugs
I won't hesitate to take em, I hate my life, I won't ever make you wait, shit I'll take my pipe
and load it up, with the ripest nugs I sight and puff 'till the night turns to light, I'm the type
to steal prescriptions just to feel so twisted, I can't feel my skin tissue or limbs, witness
my vision's when it's shifting, bless me quick or catch my head spinning like the Exorcist

No, I don't ever wanna come down from this, escape is everything I ever wanted.
This place is where I go to get away from all of this, take me home again.
"


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: dorkus]
    #5033020 - 12/08/05 08:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What is intelligence?
To be honest, I don?t know. I guess we have to come to a mutual agreement on what it is, but that would only make sense if we need to make a point besides defining it.


Edited by raytrace (12/08/05 09:17 AM)


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5033022 - 12/08/05 09:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Lets set aside my qualifications, and lets stick to the subject.

Seuss, what is the point of building AI?


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 7 months, 12 days
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Vegas]
    #5033027 - 12/08/05 09:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> But I doubt a machine will be able to actually learn as we do.

Who said anything about "as we do". I have many computer games that I have written that learn how to play the game and eventually learn how to play well enough that I can no longer beat the computer. Although the programs do not have any cognitive abilities, they certainly have learned, going from seemingly random moves to a very strong player without any human direction or intervention.

Based upon Shroomism's definition of intelligence, the ability to learn and apply knowledge, these programs that I have written are certainly intelligent.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Posts: 9,954
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5033042 - 12/08/05 09:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Seuss, what is the point of building AI?


Many commercial and industrial uses abound.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5033094 - 12/08/05 09:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, fair enough, but in most if not all of these cases the "artificial intelligence" label can be dropped. they are just some cool algorithms. some inspired by biological organisms, some not.

what i'm interested here though, is the so called "strong AI". that machines can be indistinguishable from humans.


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InvisibleDre
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5033233 - 12/08/05 10:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

There is never ever going to be a program that will be intelligent like man kind. There (probably) will be programs that are indistinguishable from real humans. But that will only be achieved by statistical analysis

The problem with AI is that you need to define intelligence. And make it AI intelligent enough to figure out that 'it' excites and it doesn't know everything there is to know. And thus motivating it to learn. If the program is not motivated to learn something but it has a hard coded learning algorithm it is not relay intelligent at all. You would end up with something like google-bot or some other web crawling program.

To seuss, if you write a piece of code that will play a game and will eventually become better then a human. You have actually written a program to analyze statistics, so your program is not really intelligent (no flame intended) it is just really good at processing data and statistic analysis of your game. Of course your program will become pretty good at the game it was designed for but it won't be able to play another game because it is simply not made to do that.

A real challenge would be; explaining a game (in plain English) and then letting the AI figure out how to play it.

PS OT: How can i join the shoomery folding at home team  :tongue2:


--------------------
Dre - A source of incoherent bullshit since 1986


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Loc: Caribbean
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Dre]
    #5033522 - 12/08/05 12:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> You have actually written a program to analyze statistics

Actually, the work I do is with simulated evolution. The programs evolve to a better solution using directed selection. I can honestly argue both ways, the programs are learning and they are not, depending upon the definition of learning or intelligence.

> And thus motivating it to learn.

Again, we are confusing cognition with intelligence, two very different things.

> Of course your program will become pretty good at the game it was designed for but it won't be able to play another game because it is simply not made to do that.

This was the thesis of my high school science fair project, back in the mid 80's. I wrote a neural network that learned to play tic-tac-toe. I then took the same network and applied it to another simple game (3d tic-tac-toe). Although the network had to learn the new game, the convergence to a solution was much faster than a network that had not previously learned from 1d tic-tac-toe.

> A real challenge would be; explaining a game (in plain English) and then letting the AI figure out how to play it.

This is pretty much how my simulated evolution games work. I define the rules of the game using a program rather than plain English. The organisms have no idea what the rules of the game are to begin with... they simply make random moves. If a move they choose isn't valid, they immediate loose. I never actually program the organisms with the rules of the game... they figure that out on their own.

> what i'm interested here though, is the so called "strong AI". that machines can be indistinguishable from humans.

I am not sure that such a beast will ever happen... it may, but it may not. The problem of cognition is much more difficult than the problem of intelligence. Animals are intelligent, but very few species are actually aware of themselves.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,790
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5033694 - 12/08/05 01:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

raytrace said:
yeah, fair enough, but in most if not all of these cases the "artificial intelligence" label can be dropped. they are just some cool algorithms. some inspired by biological organisms, some not.

what i'm interested here though, is the so called "strong AI". that machines can be indistinguishable from humans.




Seuss has said this before, and I happen to like how he put it so:

Forget about using the term "AI" to describe what I think you are trying to describe - a machine that can "think" and "act" like a human mind does.

Instead we will call that "Artificial Sentience".

Because AI itself is already in production. We already have, as Seuss pointed out, computers that can learn and then apply that learned knowledge in future situations. This kind of intelligence research has made some great steps forward with things like intelligent-agents and neural-networks.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5033706 - 12/08/05 01:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I am not sure that such a beast will ever happen... it may, but it may not. The problem of cognition is much more difficult than the problem of intelligence. Animals are intelligent, but very few species are actually aware of themselves.

This brings up a good point, the possibility that we could invent "artificial cognition"....but even if we did we may not recognize it as human cognition. Perhaps our idea of "sentience" is so strictly defined by what we see in ourselves that we really can have no concept of what "sentience" in a machine would be until it has already happened.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: trendal]
    #5033753 - 12/08/05 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How does humans use intelligence? Aren't we feeding new variables (experiences) into an already existent (from previous feeding - meaning lived life) sum?

Where does a truly original thought come from?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: dorkus]
    #5033772 - 12/08/05 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Aren't we feeding new variables (experiences) into an already existent (from previous feeding - meaning lived life) sum?

What about infants? They don't really have much life experience to feed any new variables into, do they?

It has to begin somewhere, at some time.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Dre]
    #5033804 - 12/08/05 01:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What is intelligence?

I like this one: "a very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings?"catching on", "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do."
- http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html

Quote:

There is never ever going to be a program that will be intelligent like man kind.




From my materialistic point of view, the human brain is a very complex machine/computer. I believe that we can, in theory, recreate or simulate a human brain. This synthetic brain will also have consciousness.

Quote:


PS OT: How can i join the shoomery folding at home team




http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/24037


Quote:

Actually, the work I do is with simulated evolution. The programs evolve to a better solution using directed selection. I can honestly argue both ways, the programs are learning and they are not, depending upon the definition of learning or intelligence.





Suess, that's really interesting. I'm not a programmer, but I did follow a decent Java course for my study, is there any way I could understand the basics of the code of a simple evolution program you wrote? I would love to read and understand it but I don't know if that's possible.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5033817 - 12/08/05 01:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

the ability to learn/save...

I could make it within the week, given the right fonding..

'they' are getting close to it though, and I tell 'them' in dream-scape, each and every night & day.. so just be patient.. :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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OfflineVegas
Complicated.
Registered: 12/07/05
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5034167 - 12/08/05 03:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> But I doubt a machine will be able to actually learn as we do.

Who said anything about "as we do".  I have many computer games that I have written that learn how to play the game and eventually learn how to play well enough that I can no longer beat the computer.  Although the programs do not have any cognitive abilities, they certainly have learned, going from seemingly random moves to a very strong player without any human direction or intervention.




I've toyed around with a few games, mainly just Counter-Strike mods, but the AI of the bots and such are nothing more than way-points. Attacking a stronger player is simple, can easily figure out who the stronger player is in a scenario given to statistics.

Note, that's only with my limited experience, but I've tried reading and reading for any AI improvements with video games. If I'm mistaken, fill me in :laugh:


--------------------
"I smoke chronic, pop speed, get drunk, throw up, wake up in the dump, with some of my lunch
covering the front of my sweater, smellin of skunk, deader than fuck and still ever ready for drugs
I won't hesitate to take em, I hate my life, I won't ever make you wait, shit I'll take my pipe
and load it up, with the ripest nugs I sight and puff 'till the night turns to light, I'm the type
to steal prescriptions just to feel so twisted, I can't feel my skin tissue or limbs, witness
my vision's when it's shifting, bless me quick or catch my head spinning like the Exorcist

No, I don't ever wanna come down from this, escape is everything I ever wanted.
This place is where I go to get away from all of this, take me home again.
"


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
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