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InvisibleSwami
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Robotomy and Consciousness
    #4186288 - 05/17/05 01:48 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

When HAL, the AI computer from the book/movie "2001" misbehaved, one of the astronauts began to shut HAL down. After each memory and processor card was disconnected, HAL would lose more and more high-level functioning, much like a human experiencing brain deterioration or damage. When the last card was removed and HAL was shut-down, does it make ANY sense at all to ask where HAL went?

If not, then why do we ask this about biological units? (Specifically only ourselves as no one asks where bacteria go when they die.) There is no logic to this nonsensical question, only someone looking for a story to placate their fear of termination.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDoom
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4186328 - 05/17/05 01:54 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

because we arent storybook machines from old books?


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Doom]
    #4186415 - 05/17/05 02:07 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

good comparison
i think it is more a desire for eternal life than a fear of termination


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4186424 - 05/17/05 02:09 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Because (some) humans like to think that death is not the end of existance, and so project that thought onto other humans- Combined with the (popular belief) that humans are the superior animal, (some) humans wonder where a dead human is after they cease to exist in this world.

(Most (I would think)) humans don't consider machines to have "souls", and so don't project that belief on robots.

Here's an interesting thing to think about- (some) humans consider machines to be "artificial" and devoid of a soul. What might someone think if an "artificial" human, such as a clone, or even a human "built from scratch" dies? One might think they'd consider the "artificial" human to be without a soul, and so they would simply die- much like a machine. Then again, an extremist might say that they were a creature created in sin, and thus were doomed to hell, soul or not.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4186472 - 05/17/05 02:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"does it make ANY sense at all to ask where HAL went?"

Yes, it does, and that's a great question. If HAL was acting on his own accord it's possible that an imprint of consciousness developed in him, or rather, a unit of consciousness came into HAL and resided within. "The ghost in the machine."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: moog]
    #4186549 - 05/17/05 02:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

a unit of consciousness a unit of consciousness came into HAL and resided within"

Here we encounter the unnecessary layering of some mystical explanantion that nt only explains nothing, but is also based on nothing. How much is a "unit of consciousness"? Where is the source of these units? And where is the entry point?

Because we (engineers) fully understand computers/robots at the macro level, we find no need to add in some mystery factor. It is ONLY because brain function is not understood very well that we give it some mystical quality.

This game of "ignorance = mysticism" speaks only of ourselves and tells us nothing of the world. Saying that thunder was an angry God "explained" as much saying that a soul differentiates life from non-life. It serves no real purpose. It is time to grow beyond this primitive mindset.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4186613 - 05/17/05 02:45 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

When HAL, the AI computer from the book/movie "2001" misbehaved, one of the astronauts began to shut HAL down.

Leaving your question aside, HAL didn't misbehave. He was programmed with contradicting information, but he found a completely logical way to deal with it. HAL knew that his behaviour would force the astronauts to shut him down, and that this would lead to a successful mission. In other words, HAL sacrificed himself. He's the most misunderstood computer in the history of artificial intelligence.


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Nomad]
    #4186639 - 05/17/05 02:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

And some other highly misunderstood artificial intelligence computers would be?

Aside from Sonny (I, Robot) as portrayed in the book, not the awful movie, and the computer in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (Robert Heinlen), I can't think of many.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4186680 - 05/17/05 02:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

What about Marvin, the manic-depressive robot from Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. He wasn't manic-depressive at all, since he was programmed to be manic-depressive in the first place. That was his purpose. Being manic-depressive made him happy. He was never depressed at all.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4186793 - 05/17/05 03:23 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

a unit = 1 (one). it's not a matter of mysticism, it's a matter of whether consciousness exists independent of a brain or not, which we do not know.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4186814 - 05/17/05 03:28 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Because we (engineers) fully understand computers/robots at the macro level, we find no need to add in some mystery factor. It is ONLY because brain function is not understood very well that we give it some mystical quality.

This game of "ignorance = mysticism" speaks only of ourselves and tells us nothing of the world. Saying that thunder was an angry God "explained" as much saying that a soul differentiates life from non-life. It serves no real purpose. It is time to grow beyond this primitive mindset.




We have always used our imaginations to fill in the blanks until a better, more concrete explanation came along.  I don't think anyone can explain why we are here or where we go when we die because to be able to do that, one would have to have died and come back to tell us what happened after leaving his body.  "Discorporating."  :grin:

Humans like to have explanations for things.  Nothing wrong with theorizing about things until proven right or wrong.  Once the world was thought flat.  Once it was thought that the sun revolved around the earth.  Those are primitive ideas.

There is nothing primitive about believing that there is a reason for being here, or that we have souls that go somewhere after death, because nothing has yet been proven to the contrary.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: moog]
    #4186819 - 05/17/05 03:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

A unit of consciousness = 1? So now consciousness is a measurable thing? Would an enlightened person have more units of it? Does someone in a coma have less? Do less "self-aware" animals have lower quantities of it than we do?

As for Marvin, he wasn't manic-depressive, he was depressed. He never went manic. (And yes, I've read the series well before the movie was ever conceived) He was depressed, and unless he was programmed to enjoy being depressed, which would be contradictory orders, he surely got no pleasure out of experiencing it. Robots, unlike humans, do not get pleasure out of fulfilling their purpose, unless they are programmed to. They just DO it.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4186823 - 05/17/05 03:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

wtf are you talking about man. maybe i shouldn't have even used the word unit. look, you have consciousness. that means your brain is a unit of consciousness. jesus.


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Frog]
    #4186828 - 05/17/05 03:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
I don't think anyone can explain why we are here or where we go when we die because to be able to do that, one would have to have died and come back to tell us what happened after leaving his body.  "Discorporating."  :grin:





Green Day, "One of my lies"

"Why does my life have to be so long,
And death is forever?
And does forever have a life to call its own?
Don't give me an answer 'cause you only know
As much as I know,
Unless you've been there once and
I hardly think so..."

:grin:


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: moog]
    #4186835 - 05/17/05 03:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
look, you have consciousness. that means your brain is a unit of consciousness. jesus.



What????


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: spud]
    #4186850 - 05/17/05 03:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

ok, ok. follow me closely. you have consciousness. your consciousness is one. it is not the same as MY consciousness, which another unit of (one) consciousness. if we had the same consciousness we would be the same entity. just like red is one color and blue is another. my consciousness is not your consciousness, unless you want to get into crazy metaphysical stuff.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4186863 - 05/17/05 03:41 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, what about R2-D2. Those funny little squeaking noises lack the semantic structure of language entirely. They are a by-product of internal information processing, misinterpreted as an attempt at communication. One can find meaningful patterns in any large enough sample of random noise.


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Nomad]
    #4186903 - 05/17/05 03:48 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Have to disagree with that bit there. R2 and similar droids CAN communicate to other droids using "vocal" communication. And, in the Star Wars universe, there are sentient creatures that can understand them as well, although uncommon.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Nomad]
    #4186905 - 05/17/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

hmmm... maybe c-3po was delusional and he just thought r2's beeping was coherent communication.


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OfflineDoom
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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: moog]
    #4186949 - 05/17/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

hmmm... maybe c-3po was delusional and he just thought r2's beeping was coherent communication.

highly unlikely seeings as cee3peeo translated communiques from R2 that were highly disasterous and undesirable for its own welfare.


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