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OfflineProsgeopax
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What's more 'unnatural'?
    #3699833 - 01/29/05 09:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What's more unnatural, a dam constructed by beavers or a dam constructed by humans? Please explain the justification for your opinion.



** edit- spelling **


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


Edited by Prosgeopax (01/29/05 10:28 PM)


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Offlineskystone
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3699839 - 01/29/05 10:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

both is natural


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: skystone]
    #3699870 - 01/29/05 10:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

well the overall construction of a 'human-made' dam may cause more harm to the immediate environment than that of one built by beavers..


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3699947 - 01/29/05 10:23 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The human made dam is clearly less natural because it was built with machines. Machines are not natural.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: shroomydan]
    #3699954 - 01/29/05 10:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
The human made dam is clearly less natural because it was built with machines. Machines are not natural.




Well why are machines not natural? Beavers take resources from nature and make something that is not made by wind or watter but it is still natural because a beaver is a force of nature.
Humans do that too, they take metal from nature and build machines.
These machines are no different from dams, both are made by a natural being and both are made from natural resources, only on a different level of complexity


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: shroomydan]
    #3699965 - 01/29/05 10:29 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Not all dams built by humans are built with machines.

Are humans tool makers and tool users? Is it unnatural for humans to make and use tools? Does the level of sophistication of an animal's tools determine whether or not they are natural?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3700025 - 01/29/05 10:46 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

beavers use thier teeth


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Invisibleusefulidiot
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Registered: 11/21/02
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3700029 - 01/29/05 10:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Is it unnatural for humans to make and use tools? Does the level of sophistication of an animal's tools determine whether or not they are natural?




I guess one could say that beavers don't really seem to contribute to the destruction of the planet that houses them with the tools they use to modify territory to suit their needs..


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3700044 - 01/29/05 10:51 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There are things which are directly natural, and indirectly natural.
Some things are organic, some inorganic, artificial or synthetic.

Ultimately, all of it is 'Natural'.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3700047 - 01/29/05 10:51 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

when an asteroid falls and makes a desert, its destruction and it came from nature. So there is destruction in nature.
We humans are in no way disconnected from nature, we are simply a new unique process.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3700051 - 01/29/05 10:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Humans have never destroyed any planet, beavers DO destroy or alter habitats with their dam building activities. Though the difference is one of degree, both animals do alter their environments for their own purposes.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisibleusefulidiot
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: skystone]
    #3700053 - 01/29/05 10:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

For the most part, I agree with you.


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3700055 - 01/29/05 10:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

We're starting this out all wrong. First we must establish a definition for the term "natural". I say this because that's really what everyone is debating about so lets just do away with all the mystery and define this word before we end up with 6 pages of useless rabble.


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OfflineCPT_InSaNo
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3700393 - 01/30/05 01:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

in my opinion, dams built by humans are beyond unnatural. for one thing, the dams we build are far more efficient than beaver dams, we are able to create massive lakes by stopping up rivers, and we build them by using materials that are not DIRECTLY taken from nature. Beavers build dams to survive, we do it for a profit.

If you want to talk more about wildlife/human issues feel free to pm me. Im a wildlife science major and i really enjoy discussing wildlife issues with people.


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"We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been. Spiral out. Keep going, going..."
Tool, Lateralus




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OfflinePiercedfiend
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: CPT_InSaNo]
    #3700477 - 01/30/05 01:34 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

human.


--------------------

A childs rhyme stuck in my head. It said that life is but a dream. Ive spent so many years in question to find Ive known this all along..


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3700565 - 01/30/05 01:54 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

As natural usually speaks of something that has to do with nature, it is what we view as nature and what we separate from nature. From the dictionary, it says:

na?ture
n.

1. The material world and its phenomena.
2. The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature.
3. The world of living things and the outdoors: the beauties of nature.
4. A primitive state of existence, untouched and uninfluenced by civilization or artificiality: couldn't tolerate city life anymore and went back to nature.
5. Theology. Humankind's natural state as distinguished from the state of grace.
6. A kind or sort: confidences of a personal nature.
7. The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing: ?She was only strong and sweet and in her nature when she was really deep in trouble? (Gertrude Stein).
8. The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament: ?Strange natures made a brotherhood of ill? (Percy Bysshe Shelley).
9. The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. See Synonyms at disposition.
10. The processes and functions of the body.

So I guess it goes by which definition you use eh? Discussions of this sort are all semantics, and with English having broad definitions for words like natural and love, not much progress is made.


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: Piercedfiend]
    #3700612 - 01/30/05 02:03 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Natural
nat?u?ral ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nchr-l, nchrl)
adj.
1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.
4.
---- a. Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
---- b. Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
---- c. Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.
5. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive.
6. Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
7. Faithfully representing nature or life.
8. Expected and accepted: ?In Willie's mind marriage remained the natural and logical sequence to love? (Duff Cooper).
9. Established by moral certainty or conviction: natural rights.
10. Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.
11.
---- a. Related by blood: the natural parents of the child.
---- b. Born of unwed parents: a natural child.
12. Mathematics. Of or relating to positive integers, sometimes including zero.
13. Music.
---- a. Not sharped or flatted.
---- b. Having no sharps or flats.


Unnatural
un?nat?u?ral ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-nchr-l)
adj.
1. not in accordance with or determined by nature; contrary to nature: "an unnatural death";
2. In violation of a natural law.
3. Inconsistent with an individual pattern or custom.
4. Deviating from a behavioral or social norm: an unnatural attachment.
5. Contrived or constrained; artificial: smiled in an unnatural manner.
6. In violation of natural feelings; inhuman.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3700621 - 01/30/05 02:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I just don't give a dam(n).  :grin:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: Ravus]
    #3700625 - 01/30/05 02:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
So I guess it goes by which definition you use eh? Discussions of this sort are all semantics, and with English having broad definitions for words like natural and love, not much progress is made.




Exactly :thumbup:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What's more 'unnatural'? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3701037 - 01/30/05 05:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
What's more unnatural, a dam constructed by beavers or a dam constructed by humans? Please explain the justification for your opinion.




Yes.

--------------------------------
un?nat?u?ral Audio pronunciation of "unnatural" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-nchr-l)
adj.

1. In violation of a natural law.
2. Inconsistent with an individual pattern or custom.
3. Deviating from a behavioral or social norm: an unnatural attachment.
4. Contrived or constrained; artificial: smiled in an unnatural manner.
5. In violation of natural feelings; inhuman.
--------------------------------


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