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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Unnatural = Nonexistent
    #904390 - 09/24/02 01:45 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I got in this dumb discussion with someone on another board about 'nature' ....
he was basically saying that anything that an animal does that isn't by instinct is 'unnatural' ....

this post is a compilation of parts of several of my posts along with a conversation I had with someone else, so excuse the choppiness, I'm too lazy to rewrite all this stuff into a mini-essay... but I think you'll get the point
"natural" is a meaningless word.


does it matter whether a behavior is learned or instinctive? it's all processes affecting one another.
are you to say that animals that perform learned behaviors are doing something unnatural?
is learning unnatural?
what is a NATURAL need?
humans evolved forms of social organization, we call it society. it' part of what makes us human. societies evolved to the point that they have, evolution is the *natural* progression of everything. our societies evolved economic systems, art forms, governments, taboos, ideals, medicine, rituals, religion. those aspects are part of such societies and basically define them. they are necessary to what the society is. our technologies evolve to suit the needs of societies. evolution is natural.

who's to say creation of technology is not an instinct of humans, or other animals?
even apes use tools.
who's to say social organization isn't an instinct of humans, or other animals?
apes have it, ants have it.

I cannot concieve of any action that is unnatural because of this.

everything about us makes us human. at what point did the human species become 'unnatural'? it hasn't. it's just evolved, in a few specific aspects, vastly differently from other species.

everything is a result of evolution....even if computers take over the planet it was an inevitable consequence of evolution

you may sayy, "well you're just blurring the lines and making the words meaningless" ... but that's the POINT
everyone acts like what our species does is totally separate from nature and evolution
but it's entirely a result of it
everything is
I think the words came into existence from humans being too arrogant and/or ignorant to understand we're just the same as everything else

naturalists..those that want us to leave cities and live off the land....sure..move to the mountains, create a shit pile, change the fauna around the area, fertilize areas that never had that much fertiliization, wash your clothes in the river and let the scents scare off other animals that drink from the banks..etc..cut down trees, bring in insects that feed off of the shitter and your new plants for food that never existed there before..etc
ridiculous. the 'natural' world, now that we have abandoned it, has sorta evolved to not need us and actually probably couldn't support us anymore




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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Edited by Albino_Jesus (09/24/02 01:48 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904411 - 09/24/02 01:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Unnatural = Nonexistent

I agree.
I've argued this to death with ignorant, hippie-wannabe teenagers.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904418 - 09/24/02 01:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Unnatural = Nonexistent




Yup. Sadly, even pagers and Reality TV are products of nature.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904448 - 09/24/02 02:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yes. Why is it that when a beavers build dams it is considered natural, but when humans do it it is considered unnatural?

Humans cannot be seperated from nature, nothing can be. Everything follows nature's rules. "Nature to be commanded, must be obeyed" (Francis Bacon, I don't think those are his exact words).


Edited by Evolving (09/24/02 02:09 PM)


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904475 - 09/24/02 02:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

its not the definition of the word unnatural its the meaning its supposed to represent. sure everything is natural. so if i go and kill 500000 people with a nuclear bomb its natural so its ok. those that argue that humans have developed into an unnatural state have a good point and your stuck on the definition of unnatural.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #904498 - 09/24/02 02:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

its not the definition of the word unnatural its the meaning its supposed to represent. sure everything is natural. so if i go and kill 500000 people with a nuclear bomb its natural so its ok. those that argue that humans have developed into an unnatural state have a good point and your stuck on the definition of unnatural.





um.
very dumb post.
no one is asserting that "since everything is natural, everything is ok"
killing 500000 people is not ok, in my book, because who is anyone to say that those 500000 people deserve to die? it's not ok because it's unethical, not because of anything to do with its "naturalness"
also: polluting the planet to all hell can't be deemed "unnatural", but it is not ok, in my book, because it is unhealthy for just about every organism around, and we'll end up killing ourselves, along with other creatures who don't have the ability to defend themselves against extinction... we do. we can use our "oh so unnatural" technology to undo all the damage we've done


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Offlinepattern
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #904503 - 09/24/02 02:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

the problem is associating the word "natural" with the word "good"


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man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: pattern]
    #904510 - 09/24/02 02:28 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

the problem is associating the word "natural" with the word "good"




exactly.
I do not.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904621 - 09/24/02 03:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

edward o wilson, a highly reputable ecologist/scientist/biologist believes that our civilazation is bringing on the fastest extinction period ever. :wink:
 


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: CleverName]
    #904776 - 09/24/02 04:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

so?
we can fix it with our technolgy, if only everyone would stop worrying about their flat screen tv's and missiles and cutesy angel potholders and put a little effort into cleaning up.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904801 - 09/24/02 04:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Everything is natural. If we end up blowing up the Earth due to ignorance, that was natural. If the Earth ends up getting sick of our shit and wiping us clean, that was natural.  :wink: 


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Anonymous

Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Shroomism]
    #904812 - 09/24/02 04:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Nature and life will unfold as it should. Anyone who thinks that they can control or conquer nature is a fool. Our role as a sentient species is to understand how to properly comply and work with nature to our benefit, if we fail to do so we will go the way of the dodo.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Sclorch]
    #905105 - 09/24/02 05:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I've argued this to death with ignorant, hippie-wannabe teenagers.

Yeah, but have you argued this with informed, real middle-aged hippies?

Taking on ignorant children in a logical debate - I am proud that you bested them! :tongue: 


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: ]
    #905111 - 09/24/02 05:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

That we voted in George Busch and Busch Lite, tells me that we are indeed, going the way of the dodo.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Swami]
    #905141 - 09/24/02 06:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Ah but remember that most people didn't even vote for Busch Lite. Three cheers for democracy.


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Anonymous

Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Swami]
    #905226 - 09/24/02 06:58 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

That we voted in George Busch and Busch Lite, tells me that we are indeed, going the way of the dodo.



I'm proud to say that I personally didn't vote for either tweedle dumb or tweedle dumber.  Maybe I'm on the cutting edge of evolution. :cool:


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Swami]
    #905248 - 09/24/02 07:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

W. Bush, Busch beer, Bush the band... dude it's a fucking crappiness conspiracy


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #905531 - 09/24/02 10:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The only thing that is natural to me is the light, as we evolve in consciousness you could say we are becoming more natural, a clearer reflection of source.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #905716 - 09/24/02 11:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"because who is anyone to say that those 500000 people deserve to die?"

Nobody deserves to die. the word natural in this context is referring to a balance or symbiosis and anything that is natural is something that fits into the balance and doesn't destroy it.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Anonymous

Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #905830 - 09/25/02 12:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Everything balances in nature, just not necessarily the way you think it should. What great perspective do you have that gives you superior knowledge of how nature should balance? To say that humans can destroy the balance of nature is equivalent to saying that humans can destroy the balance of God. What grand arrogance people have to think that humans are capable of ruining that which controls their existence.


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Anonymous

Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: ]
    #905833 - 09/25/02 12:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Nice to see you posting here more! :smile:

Cheers,


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: ]
    #905990 - 09/25/02 01:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

what grand arrogance you have in thinking we cant destroy nature. so what right do we have in creating the greatest rate of extinction in world history? sure species through time kill off other species and of course their is no god to answer to about what is right and wrong but should we be acting like we are the only thing that matters in the universe?


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #906443 - 09/25/02 04:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

We can destroy.. we can destroy each other, we could destroy Earth even.. Nature is eternal.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Shroomism]
    #906448 - 09/25/02 04:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

...but some threads live on forever. :smile: 


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #906760 - 09/25/02 08:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

should we be acting like we are the only thing that matters in the universe?





are we?
or are we simply a result of nature, as are our actions? read the original post, and stop thinking everyone thinks we should drive ourselves to extinction and take everyone else along with us.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #907570 - 09/25/02 05:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

then what are you debating? the definition of the word natural or are you trying to justify destruciton. what is your point? that everything is justified no matter what it is? look beyond the word natural. there is probably a better word a word that needs to be invented to describe living outside the balance of life on earth.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #907574 - 09/25/02 05:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Self-destruction is probably unnatural.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Shroomism]
    #907579 - 09/25/02 05:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

are you saying life is insignificant or that life doesn't exist as we think of it. i look at life and marvel at it. i do not wish to destroy life and i dont think others should either. sure nature is eternal but life isn't if we destroy it. it will eventually come back however but we wont be around to comprehend it. i find that there is something sacred in having a consciousness and i dont think we should make extinct other life and its consciousness because it is sacred also.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Offlinecrystalhuman
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #907687 - 09/25/02 06:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"Nobody deserves to die."

actually, we all do, we are mortal


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ANSWERS may be hazardous to your Uncertainty.
Danger! ANSWERS carry High Overdose Potential.
Remember: ANSWERS are the Thrill That Kills.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: crystalhuman]
    #907893 - 09/25/02 08:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

actually, we all do, we are mortal


our bodies may be... but WE are not...
in fact, our bodies were designed to last forever, we just don't take care of them...


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: ]
    #907899 - 09/25/02 08:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Nature and life will unfold as it should. Anyone who thinks that they can control or conquer nature is a fool. Our role as a sentient species is to understand how to properly comply and work with nature to our benefit, if we fail to do so we will go the way of the dodo.


amen


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: crystalhuman]
    #908097 - 09/25/02 09:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

just because we will die doesn't mean we deserve it. nobody deserves to die is a statement against capital punishment not the life cycle. besides, we are finding ways to live longer and longer and whos to say someday we will physically be eternal.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleEcoFreako
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #909068 - 09/26/02 04:17 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe, 1st, "sustainable" is the word you were thinking of before. Its being used a lot today, and is very appropriate,
(refering to being in 'balance' with the natural world.)
Many of our technologies are "unsustainable", same holds for our behaviors, lifestyles and so on. This term is outside of symantics and subjectivity. It is where somthing can NOT continue indefinitly...like the use of fossil fuels. Like our blooming populations, or continually increasing GDP's.
Albino seems to think technology isnt being focused approprietly....and if this were to commense, things may be peachy. Yep, weve found certian bacteria that can eat oil spills...but to me its obvious that technology is power, power and control over our 'natural' habitats is what got us into this great mess. Some of you want to call that part and parcel of evolutuion. Yes, our inherited instincts are the cause for our behaviours and conditions, and if we know that, than nothing we do should be trusted. There has been no real time for biological evolution to mean anything when we are speaking of technology, the type of evolution here is cultural, and its to such an extent that people are beginning to refer to technology itself as seperate from us, or even self-evolving. I don't give two shakes to the puritanical definitions and boundaries that humans insist on placing everything into...I do know that destroying NATURE is horrible, irregardless of how you define nature. I do know that the poster seems to have a clear cut distinction between cities and nature. Take some of you own points that you were trying to make, and realize that cities are leveling sites of where "nature" used to flourish, that cities are contiually expanding, and that the environmental degredation that you suspect of those whom live within nature, is surely as considerable to that which cities represent. Try looking at any human development, especially city centres, and just take one moment to relect on what it USED to be, a very short time ago. It is obvious to me that those of whom havnt had any access to "nature" (poster; non-cities, non-suburbs, non-argriculture monocultures), clearly have major rifts in a conscious understanding of what kind of a world we live in. Without nature we are unsustainable to ourselves, technology can never keep us alive nor content. When we destroy natural habitats we are destroying ourselves and all other life, we are not putting in place some 'other' form of nature. --Ec0


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Mmmm....permaculture....


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: In(di)go]
    #909110 - 09/26/02 05:07 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Body... just a vehicle for experiencing the physical
Spirit... lives eternal,
we are one forever being, split into trillions of perspectives of consciousness designed for gaining different levels of experience with which to return to the eternal spirit and help it grow.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: In(di)go]
    #909253 - 09/26/02 07:50 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

in fact, our bodies were designed to last forever, we just don't take care of them...

*cough*
Ahem... telomeres...
Blanket statements are dangerous.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Sclorch]
    #909355 - 09/26/02 10:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You obviously haven't read "The Common Sense of Physical Immortality" by Leonard Orr.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Sclorch]
    #909955 - 09/26/02 03:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

it is not a blanket statement, i know what i am talking about


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: In(di)go]
    #910005 - 09/26/02 03:53 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm assuming you know what telomeres are...

Yet somehow I think you don't know.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Sclorch]
    #910117 - 09/26/02 05:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

and yes, i know what telomeres are...


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: In(di)go]
    #910638 - 09/26/02 09:46 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

so then, why do you think we are designed to live forever?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Sclorch]
    #910899 - 09/26/02 11:22 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Tel-o-meres are those tiny TVs with the 3" screen.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Sclorch]
    #910920 - 09/26/02 11:27 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Actually one of the biggest hopes in longevity research is to contol or modify the enzyme that snips the telomere. Cancer may actually provide the answer! Cancer cells are believed to be theoretically immortal as their telomeres are NOT snipped after each cellular reproduction cycle as with normal cells.



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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/27/02 12:18 AM)


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InvisiblethePatient
Criminal Bodhisattva
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Registered: 07/07/02
Posts: 3,289
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Swami]
    #910964 - 09/26/02 11:47 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Wouldnt it make sense that whatever is killing us, might actually mutate or evolve us? No? Ok, maybe not.  :confused: :confused: 


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #911595 - 09/27/02 06:10 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i don't think we are, i KNOW we are


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #912436 - 09/27/02 04:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I think this discusion is very generalistic. What is "unnatural" anyway ? Wich perspective of the word is everybody argueing ?
I don't get how people can describe killing 500000 people as being unnatural, it's stupid and outrageous but it has nothing to do about being considered, as a whole, natural or not . If you ask me about a biological perpective then it's natural, man has a killing nature (note the word nature refering as to being natural in this terms), it is still needed as a weapon for survival. The social perspective about the issue has shaped us regarding the biological aspect, killing people can be considered "unnatural" by modern society and thus not permited, on the other hand you have countries where killing is a punishment or even countries where killing is seen as a common practice when "needed".
So, what is natural, i believe it's just a conception (as we need to conceptualize reality). If we see reality as a construction of nature, everything we see and exists is natural, so how can we consider the existence of something "unnatural" ?
1- Belief - unseen something, "I believe in god".
2- Knowlodge - seen something but misses the laws of nature, "i saw a ghost".
The problem here is our conception of the word "natural" and its evolution. Back in the midle ages, if you asked someone if flying was considered "unnatural" for man, he would respond "it is unnatural, man was not made to fly". Today we consider flying a very natural thing, although we are not ready biologicaly to fly we do it, is the social concept of the word "natural" evolving as we evolve, the social concept tends to diminuish the biological concept as we find ways to know better our reality (nature) and to change it as well, it's ..... natural  :wink: .

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: MAIA]
    #913216 - 09/27/02 09:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I totally agree with you.

Saying something is "natural" is about as meaningless as arguing over human nature.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
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Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: In(di)go]
    #914639 - 09/28/02 12:45 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

i don't think we are, i KNOW we are




then explain what you "know"


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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