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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc.
    #13747090 - 01/07/11 11:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Note: this is a spillover from the Organic thread.

We can (and will) go on and forever on this subject tossing around opinion after opinion. But here is the crux: not one researcher has ever shown there to be an X factor (love/pixie dust/vibrations) in a natural substance vs. a synthetic substance of the same composition.

Mimic a natual substance with the same arrangement and proportion of molecules and the two become indistinguishable.

END OF STORY!


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13747104 - 01/07/11 11:47 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

But natural substances make us feel good about ourselves. 

Consuming synthetic substances doesnt provide that pat on the back smug self satisfaction that I get when I consume natural substances. 

Plus, natural substances are just better for you - I know, my eyes and mind opened when I was on acid.

Edited by DieCommie (01/07/11 11:55 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13747841 - 01/07/11 01:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I always get a kick out of someone proclaiming that they smoke weed because "it's natural" but they would never smoke nasty meth because it's artificial and made with "battery acid".

Nevermind that battery acid (sulfuric acid) is a commonly used substance in the manufacture of pharmaceuticals.

And the kicker: meth is natural. It's probably made by at least two known species of Acacia plants. Dr. Shulgin thinks it's probably made by several other plants as well.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13747990 - 01/07/11 02:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
But natural substances make us feel good about ourselves. 

Consuming synthetic substances doesnt provide that pat on the back smug self satisfaction that I get when I consume natural substances. 

Plus, natural substances are just better for you - I know, my eyes and mind opened when I was on acid.





Was that orange sunshine?  Fresh from nature.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Diploid]
    #13748347 - 01/07/11 03:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I always get a kick out of someone proclaiming that they smoke weed because "it's natural" but they would never smoke nasty meth because it's artificial and made with "battery acid".

Nevermind that battery acid (sulfuric acid) is a commonly used substance in the manufacture of pharmaceuticals.

And the kicker: meth is natural. It's probably made by at least two known species of Acacia plants. Dr. Shulgin thinks it's probably made by several other plants as well.




How do you explain the dramatic change in appearance after meth?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13748578 - 01/07/11 04:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Meth is hardcore.  It has nothing to do with natural or not though.  According to Diploid's post, it is natural.

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13748656 - 01/07/11 04:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Of course, but not all synthetics manufacturers are fastidious about separation of isomers and other by products of synthesis that are toxic.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: falcon]
    #13748668 - 01/07/11 04:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Nor are plants necessarily free of toxins and other harmful chemicals.

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13748670 - 01/07/11 04:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
I always get a kick out of someone proclaiming that they smoke weed because "it's natural" but they would never smoke nasty meth because it's artificial and made with "battery acid".

Nevermind that battery acid (sulfuric acid) is a commonly used substance in the manufacture of pharmaceuticals.

And the kicker: meth is natural. It's probably made by at least two known species of Acacia plants. Dr. Shulgin thinks it's probably made by several other plants as well.




How do you explain the dramatic change in appearance after meth?






She is also an alcoholic.

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13748680 - 01/07/11 04:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Nor are plants necessarily free of toxins and other harmful chemicals.




Yep.


--------------------
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have done it before and it never has an effect on the true believer so what is the point?



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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: falcon]
    #13748698 - 01/07/11 05:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

So how is looking at the distinction between natural or unnatural useful at all?  Better to actually see what is good and what is bad regardless of if its 'natural'.

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InvisibleTropism
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: falcon] * 1
    #13748728 - 01/07/11 05:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

She is also an alcoholic.




And probably smoking cigarettes like no one's business.

Just another disguised suicide mission.

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13748743 - 01/07/11 05:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

With common foods that are considered natural you have a longer history of use as food and the risks associated with ingestion are better known. If the compositions are identical, though there is no difference and it's just a question of good or bad.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Tropism]
    #13748954 - 01/07/11 05:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tropism said:
Quote:

She is also an alcoholic.




And probably smoking cigarettes like no one's business.

Just another disguised suicide mission.





She also will have sex with liberals and does not eat organic. There is so much wrong with her.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #13749385 - 01/07/11 07:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There is so much wrong with her.

Yeah I bet she's a republican. :whoa:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlineflangenips
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13750760 - 01/08/11 03:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
So how is looking at the distinction between natural or unnatural useful at all?  Better to actually see what is good and what is bad regardless of if its 'natural'.




This.


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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OfflineMutantBonobo
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13750838 - 01/08/11 05:17 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Mimic a natual substance with the same arrangement and proportion of molecules and the two become indistinguishable.

END OF STORY!



I'm waiting for synthetic breasts like this... not attached to me of course.


--------------------
Lois, this family believes in the Easter Bunny.  He died for our sins in that helicopter crash.  Now, if you wanna go to hell, that's fine, but don't drag the rest of us down with you like a mentally handicapped rooster.
- Peter Griffin (Family Guy)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: MutantBonobo]
    #13752343 - 01/08/11 01:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Why would you want synthetic breasts that sag to the belly button? :confused:


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13754131 - 01/08/11 06:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There is a difference between natural and artificial substances. Natural ones have been tested for generations and generations for thousands of years, and indigenous cultures all over the world have had many generations to find out which natural substances are toxic.

Artificial substances in our foods mostly have been around for one, maybe two, at most three generations and many toxic effects are not properly understood, particularly due to the many medications people can use to inhibit obvious symptoms.


This is not an absolute distinction between natural/unnatural substances - it is merely a means to understand why there is a distinction made in the first place.

Many people then take the distinction and do the wrong thing with it. For example, being natural does not make something better than something unnatural. It merely increases the likelihood that someone has found out whether or not it is safe or unsafe to eat.


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Offlinequomaya2
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13758564 - 01/09/11 04:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Mimic a natual substance with the same arrangement and proportion of molecules and the two become indistinguishable.

END OF STORY!




Problem is that there are so many different molecules in any given plant that it is very hard to get all the molecules in a synthetic fertilizer. Synthetic fertilizers are reduced to only three things: nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium. It's extremely naive to think that those are the only nutrients that plants need. Even if scientists did make an attempt add a few more nutrients to a fertilizer, it would be extremely hard to get every trace nutrient. I know that when growing tea, the soil is extremely important in determining the quality of the tea. Indian tea is given a different grade than Chinese tea even though both soils have nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: quomaya2]
    #13758602 - 01/09/11 04:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Bingo!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: quomaya2]
    #13758835 - 01/09/11 05:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It's extremely naive to think that those are the only nutrients that plants need.




Nice strawman. :thumbdown:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #13758844 - 01/09/11 05:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Bingo!




I am petitioning the admins to disallow "Bingo!" to add to one's post count. :nono:


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: quomaya2]
    #13759364 - 01/09/11 07:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

bbc news article about organic milk having more nutrients.  I find the reasoning behind not worrying about it because you can get the nutrients normal milk lacks from other stuff to be a bit of a white wash, if you pardon the pun.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4153951.stm

For me the argument is less about the health similarities between synthetic and organic, whether or not synthetic can reproduce more easily the same nutritional properties as organic, but rather, the health differences.

Synthetic = fertilizers and specifically pesticides are made from things that ordinarily are not good for our health.  Yes, we can wash our vegetables etc, but when these plants grow from seed in soils that are drowning in the stuff, they absorb it into their whole composition.

One thing that i found interesting when looking at different studies also, is to check out the institute that funded the studies code of ethics or conduct.  I found that more often than not, the sources of research that say that its all good, have been funded by institutes who profess the importance of market and refer to people as consumers rather than prioritizing nutritional quality and public health.

Milk is a very interesting one.  This is slightly different element of the organic vs synthetic arguments.  Milk first started being pasturised to prevent various diseases spreading.  But the diseases only spread because of germs contained within milk that came from unclean environments.  Rather than regulating the cleanliness of the farms milking systems (which they do anyway today) they created the heating process that basically nukes all of the proteins and bacteria contained within milk, both unhealthy but also healthy.  The healthy bacteria that can be found in unpasterised milk is staggering, it contains overwhelming amounts of healthy stomach bacteria, very high levels of vitamin C from all the grass and plenty of other stuff which i cannot recall from memory.  People who are Lactose intoloerant can drink Raw milk aswell, because the Lactase compound which we do not produce in our bodies has not been nuked by the heating.

Synthetic methods with milk is definitely one subject within the argument that does not stand up to the organic and natural.

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Offlinequomaya2
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13759965 - 01/09/11 08:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Nice strawman. :thumbdown:




If you're going to make such bold statements as your original post, you have to at least back it up, instead of using words of which no one knows the meaning.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: quomaya2]
    #13760956 - 01/09/11 11:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Which words are you struggling with?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: quomaya2] * 1
    #13761378 - 01/10/11 12:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

quomaya2 said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Nice strawman. :thumbdown:




If you're going to make such bold statements as your original post, you have to at least back it up, instead of using words of which no one knows the meaning.





Who is this "no one" you speak of?:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinequomaya2
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #13765128 - 01/10/11 07:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It's the strawman part

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: quomaya2]
    #13765154 - 01/10/11 07:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It is discussed in the Logical Fallacies sticky thread. Would help to read it.

It is when you make a statement and pretend that is the other debater's point and then shoot it down. (Erecting something made of straw - it has no substance nor base.) It is a philosophical no-no and is frowned upon here.


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13765699 - 01/10/11 08:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Can you show me some synthesized food?

Please create (or show me) an apple, or a steak (and then eat it) from synthesized components.  You can say these things, but the truth is you need to eat what what formerly alive for you to survive.  There is no other way around it.  You go and only eat food synthesized in a lab and see how you feel.  Sure, we can create a single molecule that we see in nature the same, but there is no way we can come close to the diversity of compounds and mimic the taste or texture of food.

When you get vitamins in food they are in a full spectrum of different isomers.  In a single piece of fruit there are hundreds of different phytochemicals which all interact with your biochemistry as a whole.  To try and synthesize all of them and so forth would be ridiculous.

Furthermore, the cost perspective, it is far cheaper to grow food than to try and synthesize food.  Drugs too, THC is especially expensive to synthesize and is much cheaper to grow and extract (and then you get the full spectrum of ~60-70 cannabinoids rather than just THC).

We can mimic nature, but you still need it to survive.

As for the Organic agriculture debate.

It is not a debate in the scientific community that our topsoil is being eroded, and our over use of fertilizers is just making it worse and worse.  We need to restore traditional (or new) methods of creating better soil quality.  Our soils are depleted of major and trace minerals, fulvic acid and other organic compounds, as well as lacking useful microorganism from over use of chemicals.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (01/10/11 08:37 PM)

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13765945 - 01/10/11 09:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well I think the whole damn thing is backwards.

People have found that good things happen to be "organic" and bad things happen to be synthesized. And they assume, retardedly, that if something is organic it's good and if it's synthesized it's bad; when in fact it is the case that there is something good that happens to be organic and something bad that happens to be synthesized, and like humans do, they generalize and create stupid maxims.

OC you must admit that some pesticides and other food additives we've been using over the past 50 or so years have turned out to be cancerous or otherwise harmful to our health. I believe it is from this that the natural vs. organic argument stems from, or at least the only logical part. And like I said, it is more of "this thing is bad and is synthetic so synthetic things must be bad,"

So anyways, yeah. There are definitely some synthetic things that are bad for you but it is not a direct result of being synthetic. And there are definitely some organic things that are good for you but it is not a direct result of being synthetic.


--------------------

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: learningtofly]
    #13768124 - 01/11/11 10:59 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

We cannot recreate foods, only molecules.  We need to eat foods that were once living to survive because we cannot recreate the diversity of nutrients needed to sustain life (and more so, maintain good health).

OC do you have a response for this?  You seem to love to tell people their arguments are logical fallacies, or make irrelevant comments and redirect the discussion rather than actually talk about the topic you brought up.

Are you going to defend your point, or was this whole tread just you wanting to rant?

A good example here is Vitamin C.  Just eating ascorbic acid will give you vitamin C, but when you eat it in food it you get other bioflavanoids and phytochemicals which help the absorption and utilization of vitamin C.

Our biochemistry has been fine tuned for billions of years to interact with these compounds around us in their full spectrum form.  We cannot recreate the complexity and nutrients of food.  Same with drugs, you get a whole host of different medicinal compounds in pot, medicinal mushrooms, etc, rather than just a single one.

Our reductionist methods have been quite a failure in this respect.  Our focus on single molecules for medicine and health has lead people away from the holistic (and proper) view of health.  If you really want to be healthy and live as nature intended (without chronic disease and pain) then you need to eat what it provides for you, and not something made in a lab.

Just like we thought that hydrogenated veggie oil and saturated fat from nature was the same in the 50s (and the resulting "studies" then demonized all saturated fat for being unhealthy, when it was only the hydrogenated veggie oil).  We finally learned that the hydrogenation was unhealthy, but the fat phobia remains today with unprecedented health consequences.  This thinking has caused us enough harm to health already, and it doesn't need to be propagated. IMO the whole low fat craze has made people avoid nutritious filling fatty foods to constantly eat empty carbs feeding the obesity epidemic.

The more processed foods become, the more nutrients are removed to preserve macro nutrients, the sicker the population gets.

The more real foods you eat, the healthier you will become.  Notice most of the healthiest foods are ones that can be eaten closest to their natural forms (Meat, fruits and veggies, nuts and seeds, tubers) while the more unhealthy ones need increasing forms of processing (Grains, refined sugar, etc).  That is not to say all forms of processing are bad, but if your food needs to go through various processes to make it edible, then maybe you weren't meant to eat it in the first place?

If you want to be healthy you need to embrace nature and eat what it meant for you, we cannot make it in a lab at the moment, so they are not equal.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (01/11/11 11:25 AM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13768184 - 01/11/11 11:10 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We cannot recreate foods, only molecules.


I guess foods are not composed of molecules. :lol:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We need to eat foods that were once living to survive because we cannot recreate the diversity of nutrients needed to sustain life (and more so, maintain good health).


Proof?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Poid]
    #13768291 - 01/11/11 11:28 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

learningtofly is correct in stopping the generalization of either or to be god or bad. For all we know, everything on this planet may be of a synthetic origin, created to self-perpetuate.


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Poid]
    #13768384 - 01/11/11 11:45 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We cannot recreate foods, only molecules.


I guess foods are not composed of molecules. :lol:





Foods are a complex mix of molecules with a distribution and nano/micro scale structures we could not reproduce.  Don't try to get smart on me here, I am about to get an honors degree in biochemistry, I have been studying this stuff in depth for 4 years.  I am constantly taught by my teachers about how much better nature is at everything, and we are just naively messing with things in most cases.  I find it funny how many people here (with little chemistry knowledge, no offense) like to support this argument when they know little of the subject.

Try to get Piracetam or Johnm12 to weigh in here.  What occurs in life is far more advanced than what we can create in a lab.

I think organic chemistry is amazing. I am taking graduate level classes in it right now.  Creating the basic building blocks of matter, and changing molecular structures is something I find amazing, and I love organic chemistry labs.


Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We need to eat foods that were once living to survive because we cannot recreate the diversity of nutrients needed to sustain life (and more so, maintain good health).


Proof?





Would you want to eat a bunch of chemicals rather than food?  Food is tasty, cooking is tons of fun, giving that up because we can synthesize things is a waste (of resources too since as I said growing food is much cheaper).

You guys have no idea how much research money would have to be spent to try and create a total synthesis of all the phytochemicals, flavanoids, alkaloids and nutrients, etc present in just a single fruit (or variety of).

It would never be done because all you need to do is grow food.  We are nowhere near the point where we could feed ourselves from the lab, we are still dependent on soil (even as we destroy it with nothing to replace it with).


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (01/11/11 11:47 AM)

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13768418 - 01/11/11 11:53 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We cannot recreate foods, only molecules.


I guess foods are not composed of molecules. :lol:

Foods are a complex mix of molecules with a distribution and nano/micro scale structures we could not reproduce.


How do you know we will not ever be able to reproduce such a complex mix of molecules? Do you have any source which shows that we are not able to do that right now?


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Don't try to get smart on me here, I am about to get an honors degree in biochemistry, I have been studying this stuff in depth for 4 years.  I am constantly taught by my teachers about how much better nature is at everything, and we are just naively messing with things in most cases.


Well, then, if you know so much, you should be able to defend your claims; if you can't, then it seems to me like you haven't really learned much. :shrug:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
I find it funny how many people here (with little chemistry knowledge, no offense) like to support this argument when they know little of the subject.


I find it funny when people who claim to be knowledgeable in a certain area find it difficult to support their "knowledge" with facts.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Try to get Piracetam or Johnm12 to weigh in here.  What occurs in life is far more advanced than what we can create in a lab.


I guess our lab creations are not occurrences in life.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We need to eat foods that were once living to survive because we cannot recreate the diversity of nutrients needed to sustain life (and more so, maintain good health).


Proof?



Would you want to eat a bunch of chemicals rather than food?


What do you think food is made of, magic pixie-dust or some shit?


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Food is tasty, cooking is tons of fun, giving that up because we can synthesize things is a waste (of resources too since as I said growing food is much cheaper).

You guys have no idea how much research money would have to be spent to try and create a total synthesis of all the phytochemicals, flavanoids, alkaloids and nutrients, etc present in just a single fruit (or variety of).


Can you provide a source which explains how difficult such research would be?


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
It would never be done because all you need to do is grow food.


How does that mean that it will never be done?


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We are nowhere near the point where we could feed ourselves from the lab...


Source?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (01/11/11 12:53 PM)

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13768680 - 01/11/11 12:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

A good example here is Vitamin C.




Yes, that is a very good example. Not one person can tell ascorbic acid refined from a natural source or manufactured in the lab. A molecule is a molecule is a molecule.


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Poid]
    #13768701 - 01/11/11 12:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What do you think food is made of, magic pixie-dust?




Despite the attempt at weak arguments, that is the basic thinking behind many of these posts. Thye won't say it that way because it sounds ridiculous even to them, but that is the core of it.

We have witnessed this same nonsense for years here on the 'spirit of the mushroom' type threads. 'The Mushroom wants this..." or "The Mushroom punished me..." :blah:


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13768767 - 01/11/11 12:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"The Mushroom", LOL.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Poid]
    #13768813 - 01/11/11 01:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"El Hongito"


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13768823 - 01/11/11 01:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

:pinkshroom:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #13775019 - 01/12/11 02:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Did you just call Poid a name? :nono:


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Diploid]
    #13775056 - 01/12/11 02:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

BAN HIM!! :yesnod2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Diploid]
    #13775934 - 01/12/11 04:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Did you just call Poid a name? :nono:




It means: tiny penis. Is that against the rulez?


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13776021 - 01/12/11 05:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, having a tiny penis is against forum rules.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13780459 - 01/13/11 01:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

A good example here is Vitamin C.




Yes, that is a very good example. Not one person can tell ascorbic acid refined from a natural source or manufactured in the lab. A molecule is a molecule is a molecule.




Did you actually read what I said?

Ascorbic acid from plants or synthesized in a lab is identical, but they cab be absorbed at different efficiencies depending on their context.  As I said, Vitamin C in fruits is absorbed and utilized much more efficiently (than pure vitamin C, synthetic or natural) because it is present with the proper flavanoids for increased absorption.

Furthermore, the flavanoids are powerful antioxidants that work in concert with Vitamin C for better action.  Another reason why pure vitamin C (natural or synthetic) is poor compared to real food.

You guys need to understand that molecules can behave completely differently depending on their form and context.

I am not saying that Vitamin C from plants is different from that which is made in a lab.  You completely misunderstand me.  All I am saying is that it is presented in a form and with other compounds for high efficiency of use.

So if you want some synthetic food look here.  It is just sugar jelly.  As I said, there is no way at the moment to mimic the texture or composition of real food.

Michelin chef's formula for future of fine dining

This guy is serving completely snythetic food, it is just a jellyish sugar mixture, not much different from jello except it is all synthesized rather than refined (and no gelatin).

Go read how complex the workings of a cell are on wikipedia.  And think about having to recreat all the compounds and structures involved there for "synthetic food".

If you understood how complicated what happens in a plant or animal cell is, then you would find the concept of creating "synthetic food" that actually contained everything there laughable.

We can recreate billions of years of nutritional evolution in a lab, sure...


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (01/13/11 01:35 PM)

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13780513 - 01/13/11 01:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Go back and read the OP.  You have gone beyond the scope of his claim. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13780976 - 01/13/11 03:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ascorbic acid from plants or synthesized in a lab is identical




Yes, I agree. Case closed.


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13782295 - 01/13/11 06:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You're reduction of cannashroom's argument into a single sentence is as representative of his main point as the reduced product of a natural substance into a synthetic one is of the original substance. Just because scientists can't understand the complexity doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: quomaya2]
    #13782998 - 01/13/11 09:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

So I should refute points that I did not make?

Dint think so. :nono:


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: quomaya2]
    #13783024 - 01/13/11 09:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

quomaya2 said:
You're reduction of cannashroom's argument into a single sentence is as representative of his main point as the reduced product of a natural substance into a synthetic one is of the original substance. Just because scientists can't understand the complexity doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.





Go back and re read the OP.  He made a very specific statement and within the confines of that statement what he says is correct.

Is there more to the story? Yes imo, but that's not really part of the OP.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13784925 - 01/14/11 07:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Deleted: Double post, see below.

Edited by Cannashroom (01/14/11 08:39 AM)

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13784939 - 01/14/11 07:53 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
END OF STORY!




Somehow i doubt this is true because hippies will continue to annoy you, and you'll continue to annoy them... its the circle of life :awecid:

Anyway there is quite a few studies showing that calorie for calorie organic food delivers more essential nutrients
The only counter to this is that GM is cheaper, so you get more calories to ingest anyway

You think our monkey machines are sensitive enough to really show the difference?
Naaaaaah


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13785027 - 01/14/11 08:31 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Note: this is a spillover from the Organic thread.

We can (and will) go on and forever on this subject tossing around opinion after opinion. But here is the crux: not one researcher has ever shown there to be an X factor (love/pixie dust/vibrations) in a natural substance vs. a synthetic substance of the same composition.

Mimic a natual substance with the same arrangement and proportion of molecules and the two become indistinguishable.

END OF STORY!





My whole point was that WE CANNOT mimic a complex natural substance like food with the correct arrangement and proportion of molecules.  We can mimic a few molecules, but cannot mimic the amazing diversity and structure seen in nature.

@Icelander
I am pretty sure that my point was in the scope of his argument.  I am saying we cannot mimic them.  We can make a few substances in a goop, but we could not reproduce all the proteins, lipids, carbs and complex organic molecules present in a single cell (and especially not the structures they form).  Real food is alive and life is the most complicated thing on this planet -- we cannot recreate that in all its glory.  Furthermore, the title of the thread did include 'synthetic food'.

@OC
You don't even respond to my argument, you just keep saying the same point over, even as I make arguments against it.  Then, you just take quotes out of context to support yourself.  You criticize others for their logical fallacies, but you don't make any logical conclusions, you just keep repeating the same statement over and over.  If you are so superior to the magical pixies dust types than defend yourself in a coherent manner, or you are no better, you haven't come off as actually having a defense for your point.  You just made this thread, like all the rest, to stir shit up, and had no intention of  having a reasonable debate on the topic.


--------------------
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This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13785186 - 01/14/11 09:28 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You've got to do a little work on reading comprehension. There is no mention of synthetic food in the OP.

in a natural substance vs. a synthetic substance of the same composition.

this is his statememt


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #13785856 - 01/14/11 11:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Emotionalism and arguing against what you pretend another person wrote is somehow more 'fun'. :shrug:


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13786314 - 01/14/11 01:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I am sorry, I should have been more clear from the start with my meanings.  It comes does to what you consider "natural" and "synthetic".  Most people focus on the more trivial questions of origin than context.  All the molecules in the universe are "natural" and most of the reagents used for chemistry are life from millions of years ago.  You compare natural to synthetic in your OP, but, you are comparing an unnatural form of something to something synthetic (if you use the strict term of being chemically synthesized).  For me it is the context that is more important than the origin.  Pure Vitamin C from cherries in a pill is the same as Pure Vitamin C in a pill from a lab, but, both are human creations.  One was synthesized, and the other extracted, but both have been manipulated to an unnatural, pure form.  The "natural substance" is the cherry, and my point is that you cannot mimic that.

And since, the topic of this was " Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc." and is a shoot off of the organic/agriculture thread I thought my point was valid.

It is valid for agriculture because nutrients in organic fertilizer are presented in a better context for use.

It is also applicable to drugs, take this quote from the wiki on natural products:

Quote:

"Not all natural products can be fully synthesized and many natural products have very complex structures that are too difficult and expensive to synthesize on an industrial scale. These include drugs such as penicillin, morphine, and paclitaxel (Taxol). Such compounds can only be harvested from their natural source - a process which can be tedious, time consuming, and expensive, as well as being wasteful on the natural resource. For example, one yew tree would have to be cut down to extract enough paclitaxel from its bark for a single dose.[6] Furthermore, the number of structural analogues that can be obtained from harvesting is severely limited.

A further problem is that isolates often work differently than the original natural products which have synergies and may combine, say, antimicrobial compounds with compounds that stimulate various pathways of the immune system:

    Many higher plants contain novel metabolites with antimicrobial and antiviral properties. However, in the developed world almost all clinically used chemotherapeutics have been produced by in vitro chemical synthesis. Exceptions, like taxol and vincristine, were structurally complex metabolites that were difficult to synthesize in vitro. Many non-natural, synthetic drugs cause severe side effects that were not acceptable except as treatments of last resort for terminal diseases such as cancer. The metabolites discovered in medicinal plants may avoid the side effect of synthetic drugs, because they must accumulate within living cells.[7]

Semisynthetic procedures can sometimes get around these problems. This often involves harvesting a biosynthetic intermediate from the natural source, rather than the final (lead) compound itself. The intermediate could then be converted to the final product by conventional synthesis. This approach can have two advantages. First, the intermediate may be more easily extracted in higher yield than the final product itself. Second, it may allow the possibility of synthesizing analogues of the final product. The semisynthetic penicillins are an illustration of this approach. Another recent example is that of paclitaxel. It is manufactured by extracting 10-deacetylbaccatin III from the needles of the yew tree, then carrying out a four-stage synthesis."




(emphasis my own)


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (01/14/11 01:57 PM)

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13786360 - 01/14/11 02:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The "natural substance" is the cherry, and my point is that you cannot mimic that.




The point is: we have been able to replicate many aspects of 'cherry' and there is no technological barrier to one day replicating an entire cherry. And if we do, there will be no X factor to distinguish the two.


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13786399 - 01/14/11 02:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

there will always be a BS factor to consider.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #13786432 - 01/14/11 02:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

twue


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13786529 - 01/14/11 02:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

The "natural substance" is the cherry, and my point is that you cannot mimic that.




The point is: we have been able to replicate many aspects of 'cherry' and there is no technological barrier to one day replicating an entire cherry. And if we do, there will be no X factor to distinguish the two.




Replication the cherry exactly would mean replicating the cherry tree and life form completely.  I guess that would mean synthesizing a viable cherry seed, which is just absurd.  If you think there is no technological barrier to recreating such complex life from synthetic components then who is the one believing in magic pixie dust?


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (01/14/11 02:35 PM)

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13786632 - 01/14/11 02:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Is a thoroughly blended cherry still considered cherry?


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13786639 - 01/14/11 02:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

The "natural substance" is the cherry, and my point is that you cannot mimic that.




The point is: we have been able to replicate many aspects of 'cherry' and there is no technological barrier to one day replicating an entire cherry. And if we do, there will be no X factor to distinguish the two.




Replication the cherry exactly would mean replicating the cherry tree and life form completely.


No it wouldn't.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
I guess that would mean synthesizing a viable cherry seed, which is just absurd.


Why, because God forbids it or some shit? :god:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
If you think there is no technological barrier to recreating such complex life from synthetic components then who is the one believing in magic pixie dust?


You, because you have imagined that there exists a technological barrier without providing any proof of its actual existence. :fairy:


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Poid]
    #13786678 - 01/14/11 03:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Canna is not happy unless he keeps extending the argument past that which was made. Goal-post shifting and all that.

"Not until man can make a star and a planet from which the cherry tree can grow..." :blah:


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Poid]
    #13789453 - 01/15/11 01:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

The "natural substance" is the cherry, and my point is that you cannot mimic that.




The point is: we have been able to replicate many aspects of 'cherry' and there is no technological barrier to one day replicating an entire cherry. And if we do, there will be no X factor to distinguish the two.




Replication the cherry exactly would mean replicating the cherry tree and life form completely.


No it wouldn't.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
I guess that would mean synthesizing a viable cherry seed, which is just absurd.


Why, because God forbids it or some shit? :god:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
If you think there is no technological barrier to recreating such complex life from synthetic components then who is the one believing in magic pixie dust?


You, because you have imagined that there exists a technological barrier without providing any proof of its actual existence. :fairy:




As I said before, go learn about how complex cells and life are, and think about trying to recreate that synthetically.  I won't argue anymore, because you guys really do not comprehend the complexity of life if you think theses complex eukaryotic cells and tissues could be recreated in vitro.  I am not going to teach you years worth of organic chemistry and biochemistry for you to realize how ridiculous this is, so do some research on the topic.

Maybe we could do it in billions of years, but it would be so far advanced from our current technology it would be unfathomable.  We can only reproduce unnatural forms of molecules synthetically, so they cannot be compared to their natural forms.

We cannot synthesize molecules in such specified locations like cells.  Cells are incredible organized and structured, it is not just a bag of crap.  Our synthesis techniques focus on large scale production of one chemical, rather than the simultaneous productions of thousands in an organized manner on the micro and nano scale.

At the moment, we cannot recreate the natural context molecules arise in food or herbs.  We can mimic a single isolated compound, but not life as a whole.  That was my point all along.

If that is "out of the scope of the OP" then deal with it, it is in the scope of the tread title, you should have been more specific.

Isolated natural compounds are identical to synthetic isolated compounds.  But that is not what you said, you had natural vs unnatural and synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs.  And that is the topic I am talking about.  It is not like I took a huge tangent on this tread, you just don't like to have your reductionist logic challenged and would rather skirt the point.

Why include Natural Vs Unnatural foods in the title if you didn't want discussion on it?  Seriously?


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (01/15/11 01:49 AM)

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13789482 - 01/15/11 01:41 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You just don't get it do you?:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #13789539 - 01/15/11 02:00 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You just don't get it do you?:lol:




I get it completely. 

Quote:

Icelander said:
You just don't get it do you?:lol:





Lol, I get it, I just have been drinking and like to push it.  Also I think people should research molecular biology, so I will just keep saying it in the hopes at least one person will stop to actually learn something on the subject.

You ended your first post with END OF STORY!

You never meant to have any discussion what so ever, so why post somewhere for debate and discussion on the topic?


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13789548 - 01/15/11 02:04 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Lol, I get it, I just have been drinking




I have learned the hard way never to drink and post.  :nono:


--------------------
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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: deCypher]
    #13789664 - 01/15/11 02:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
As I said before, go learn about how complex cells and life are, and think about trying to recreate that synthetically.  I won't argue anymore, because you guys really do not comprehend the complexity of life if you think theses complex eukaryotic cells and tissues could be recreated in vitro.  I am not going to teach you years worth of organic chemistry and biochemistry for you to realize how ridiculous this is, so do some research on the topic.


Fucking Christ...:picard:

Did I ever claim that recreating cells/life is easy? Even if I did, why would it matter? What relevance would that have to the fact that you have failed to provide evidence for the existence of a technological barrier to recreating complex life-forms from synthetic components while insisting that one must exist? This discussion is not about whether or not recreating cells/life is easy, it's about whether or not doing so is technically possible.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Maybe we could do it in billions of years...


Finally, you concede, I really didn't think you had it in you. :thumbup:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
...but it would be so far advanced from our current technology it would be unfathomable.


Are you basing this prediction on the same pixie-dust that you based your assertion that there exists a technological barrier to recreating complex life-forms from synthetic components? :fairy:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We can only reproduce unnatural forms of molecules synthetically, so they cannot be compared to their natural forms.


Why does that mean that they cannot be compared to their natural forms? What is this X-factor, do you have any evidence for its existence?


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We cannot synthesize molecules in such specified locations like cells.  Cells are incredible organized and structured, it is not just a bag of crap.  Our synthesis techniques focus on large scale production of one chemical, rather than the simultaneous productions of thousands in an organized manner on the micro and nano scale.


Never heard of microbiology, huh? :lol:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
At the moment, we cannot recreate the natural context molecules arise in food or herbs.  We can mimic a single isolated compound, but not life as a whole.  That was my point all along.


No it wasn't, your point was that there exists a technological barrier to recreating complex life-forms from synthetic components; I believe you also had a few other equally stupid points that you have probably by now retracted.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
If that is "out of the scope of the OP" then deal with it, it is in the scope of the tread title, you should have been more specific.


What if I can't deal with it? :tickle:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Isolated natural compounds are identical to synthetic isolated compounds.  But that is not what you said, you had natural vs unnatural and synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs.  And that is the topic I am talking about.  It is not like I took a huge tangent on this tread, you just don't like to have your reductionist logic challenged and would rather skirt the point.


WTF are you talking about? :cuckoo:

Can you show me where you believe I attempted to skirt the point, or did that hallucination disappear already? :braindamage:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Why include Natural Vs Unnatural foods in the title if you didn't want discussion on it?  Seriously?


I don't fucking know, don't ask me. :nut:



Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Lol, I get it, I just have been drinking




I have learned the hard way never to drink and post.  :nono:


Never drink and post--you'll spill your drink. :beercat:


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #13790153 - 01/15/11 07:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Lol, I get it, I just have been drinking




I have learned the hard way never to pink and drost.  :nono:




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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13790189 - 01/15/11 08:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

u never meant to have any discussion what so ever, so why post somewhere for debate and discussion on the topic?

He's a troll. But you did stray from the topic. :nono:

If it's any consolation I agree with your off topic pov.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #13790207 - 01/15/11 08:28 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If only this were the "How to replicate a cherry tree" thread. Notice how Canna whines about wanting a discussion yet failed to answer my simple question? (first time that ever happened!)


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Poid]
    #13791009 - 01/15/11 12:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
As I said before, go learn about how complex cells and life are, and think about trying to recreate that synthetically.  I won't argue anymore, because you guys really do not comprehend the complexity of life if you think theses complex eukaryotic cells and tissues could be recreated in vitro.  I am not going to teach you years worth of organic chemistry and biochemistry for you to realize how ridiculous this is, so do some research on the topic.


Fucking Christ...:picard:

Did I ever claim that recreating cells/life is easy? Even if I did, why would it matter? What relevance would that have to the fact that you have failed to provide evidence for the existence of a technological barrier to recreating complex life-forms from synthetic components while insisting that one must exist? This discussion is not about whether or not recreating cells/life is easy, it's about whether or not doing so is technically possible.




And at the moment it is technically impossible, I don't really care what is possible millions of years from now, right now there are huge barriers.

1.  Our level of organic synthesis is still that we cannot synthesize many natural products in  food, so we need to overcome this first, especially our synthesis of giant peptides.

2.  We cannot organize structures on the scale of cells.  We would need to make thousands of different vesicles, and direct cytoskeleton arrangement around them, something which is just science fiction atm.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Maybe we could do it in billions of years...


Finally, you concede, I really didn't think you had it in you. :thumbup:




If it is going to take a long time to get there, then there is an obvious technological barrier at the moment.  Technological barrier is something we need to surpass to get there.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
...but it would be so far advanced from our current technology it would be unfathomable.




Are you basing this prediction on the same pixie-dust that you based your assertion that there exists a technological barrier to recreating complex life-forms from synthetic components? :fairy:




Yes, two are posted earlier.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We can only reproduce unnatural forms of molecules synthetically, so they cannot be compared to their natural forms.


Why does that mean that they cannot be compared to their natural forms? What is this X-factor, do you have any evidence for its existence?




Ugh, so you didn't even read all the stuff I said on this?  The nutrients in living (or recently dead) foods is presented in a context for maximum use.

Water soluble vitamins and minerals absorb very well from fruit because the sugar content helps carry them into cells (one reason you pee out most of pure vitamin pills).


I don't think there is any argument here that eating food is better than taking vitamins pills (In terms of bioavailability and efficacy of the vitamin).  This is because the food already contains tons


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We cannot synthesize molecules in such specified locations like cells.  Cells are incredible organized and structured, it is not just a bag of crap.  Our synthesis techniques focus on large scale production of one chemical, rather than the simultaneous productions of thousands in an organized manner on the micro and nano scale.


Never heard of microbiology, huh? :lol:




Um, microbiology is the study of microorganisms.  It has nothing to do with chemical synthesis on the micro scale.  You are acting like I don't know what I am talking about, and then misuse scientific terms.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
At the moment, we cannot recreate the natural context molecules arise in food or herbs.  We can mimic a single isolated compound, but not life as a whole.  That was my point all along.


No it wasn't, your point was that there exists a technological barrier to recreating complex life-forms from synthetic components; I believe you also had a few other equally stupid points that you have probably by now retracted.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
If that is "out of the scope of the OP" then deal with it, it is in the scope of the tread title, you should have been more specific.


What if I can't deal with it? :tickle:


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Isolated natural compounds are identical to synthetic isolated compounds.  But that is not what you said, you had natural vs unnatural and synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs.  And that is the topic I am talking about.  It is not like I took a huge tangent on this tread, you just don't like to have your reductionist logic challenged and would rather skirt the point.


WTF are you talking about? :cuckoo:

Can you show me where you believe I attempted to skirt the point, or did that hallucination disappear already? :braindamage:




I was talking about OC.  Since that was referring to the title of the thread, and you didn't make the thread.  You never tried to skirt the point, you at least acknowledged my arguments.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Why include Natural Vs Unnatural foods in the title if you didn't want discussion on it?  Seriously?


I don't fucking know, don't ask me. :nut:




Again, I wasn't.

We are just throwing around this term "technological barrier" without any meaning between us.  I am using it meaning what we can do now, and you guys are using, for what we could do eventually.

Technological barrier doesn't mean a fundamental property of nature that makes it impossible, it means our technology cannot do that at the moment.  So to say there is no technological barrier because we can do it millions of years from now is just admitting there is because we cannot do it now.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13791059 - 01/15/11 12:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I actually think I can agree somewhat with what Canna is getting at. I think he just isn't very good at writing/debating which is what causes him to make so many false statements.


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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13791071 - 01/15/11 12:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Did I ever claim that recreating cells/life is easy? Even if I did, why would it matter? What relevance would that have to the fact that you have failed to provide evidence for the existence of a technological barrier to recreating complex life-forms from synthetic components while insisting that one must exist? This discussion is not about whether or not recreating cells/life is easy, it's about whether or not doing so is technically possible.




And at the moment it is technically impossible, I don't really care what is possible millions of years from now, right now there are huge barriers.


Well earlier you were saying that it is impossible, period.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We can only reproduce unnatural forms of molecules synthetically, so they cannot be compared to their natural forms.


Why does that mean that they cannot be compared to their natural forms? What is this X-factor, do you have any evidence for its existence?




Ugh, so you didn't even read all the stuff I said on this?  The nutrients in living (or recently dead) foods is presented in a context for maximum use.


I asked you why that means that unnatural forms of molecules cannot be compared to their natural forms, I wasn't asking you about nutrients.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

We cannot synthesize molecules in such specified locations like cells.  Cells are incredible organized and structured, it is not just a bag of crap.  Our synthesis techniques focus on large scale production of one chemical, rather than the simultaneous productions of thousands in an organized manner on the micro and nano scale.


Never heard of microbiology, huh? :lol:




Um, microbiology is the study of microorganisms.  It has nothing to do with chemical synthesis on the micro scale.  You are acting like I don't know what I am talking about, and then misuse scientific terms.


I thought you were implying that there is no current field of study that could aid researchers in chemically synthesizing nutrients etc. on a micro/nano scale.


Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We are just throwing around this term "technological barrier" without any meaning between us.  I am using it meaning what we can do now, and you guys are using, for what we could do eventually.

Technological barrier doesn't mean a fundamental property of nature that makes it impossible...


That is the way me and OC were using the term. :shrug:


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Natural vs, unnatural or synthetic chemicals/foods/drugs etc. [Re: Poid]
    #13796704 - 01/16/11 01:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Did I ever claim that recreating cells/life is easy? Even if I did, why would it matter? What relevance would that have to the fact that you have failed to provide evidence for the existence of a technological barrier to recreating complex life-forms from synthetic components while insisting that one must exist? This discussion is not about whether or not recreating cells/life is easy, it's about whether or not doing so is technically possible.




And at the moment it is technically impossible, I don't really care what is possible millions of years from now, right now there are huge barriers.


Well earlier you were saying that it is impossible, period.




I said it is technically impossible.  It is theoretically feasible, but actually carrying it out would take an obscene amount of technological advances and money for something with no real purpose, since we can just mess with the life we have already, much more easily.



Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We can only reproduce unnatural forms of molecules synthetically, so they cannot be compared to their natural forms.


Why does that mean that they cannot be compared to their natural forms? What is this X-factor, do you have any evidence for its existence?




Ugh, so you didn't even read all the stuff I said on this?  The nutrients in living (or recently dead) foods is presented in a context for maximum use.


I asked you why that means that unnatural forms of molecules cannot be compared to their natural forms, I wasn't asking you about nutrients.




Well this argument stemmed from the agriculture/food/drug natural vs unnatural debate, so nutrients are a key point.  Life is the big factor here, we can recreate minerals and such without much trouble, it is molecules associated with life that we have trouble.  And when these molecules are in their "living state" they are together with tens or hundreds of thousands of different molecules all interacting.  When we extract or synthesize these molecules to a pure form, that is an unnatural state.  And since this argument all stems from debates about what is more "healthy", talking about nutrients is a key point.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

We cannot synthesize molecules in such specified locations like cells.  Cells are incredible organized and structured, it is not just a bag of crap.  Our synthesis techniques focus on large scale production of one chemical, rather than the simultaneous productions of thousands in an organized manner on the micro and nano scale.


Never heard of microbiology, huh? :lol:




Um, microbiology is the study of microorganisms.  It has nothing to do with chemical synthesis on the micro scale.  You are acting like I don't know what I am talking about, and then misuse scientific terms.


I thought you were implying that there is no current field of study that could aid researchers in chemically synthesizing nutrients etc. on a micro/nano scale.




As for microbiology stuff, even our use of bacteria for recombinant proteins and natural products focus on mass productions of a single compounds through various isolation steps.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cannashroom said:
We are just throwing around this term "technological barrier" without any meaning between us.  I am using it meaning what we can do now, and you guys are using, for what we could do eventually.

Technological barrier doesn't mean a fundamental property of nature that makes it impossible...


That is the way me and OC were using the term. :shrug:







Except you said there was no barrier, implying it is possible today.




Other than saying it is technically impossible, which is much of the debate, what other false statements did I make?

Edited by Cannashroom (01/16/11 01:34 PM)

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