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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3667617 -

- damn, thats a lot of confusing thoughts. It makes some sense though.

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3667642 -

Why must one lie to only gain power of people who don't?

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3667953 -

Sensismoker said:
-this universe might not be efficient, but it is sufficient, the very fact that this universe is 99.9% uninhabitable is a demonstration of God in and of itself. IF this world was efficient, it had perfect living conditions, and there was no 'wastefullness' in design, we would be living in the Garden Of Eden. This is impossible since humans are imperfect.


So human beings are the product of a perfect creator, yet are themselves imperfect. How can this be?

I know that Christianity traditionally invokes free will in order to answer this, but for me that solution always seems to squeal like an ill-fitting fan belt. An omniscient God could hardly have created vastly lesser beings such as ourselves without knowing ahead of time that we would stray from him and descend into suffering. He (supposedly) fashioned the first human brains out of clay -- he must know what makes them tick. Yet he went right ahead and cranked out these imperfect grey globs destined for sin and rebellion. So the question remains: how can a perfect creator craft inferior goods?

To reformulate the question in more generic terms, how can sin and suffering ever descend from a perfect, benevalent being who is everywhere at all times and knows all things?

To get even more generic, why would a hypothetical perfect being, complete in and of itself, create anything at all?


--------------------

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3668000 -

Religion has nothing to do with verifiable truth.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Clark]
    #3668072 -

sensi
your posts are longer than my daughter's new apartment lease.(makes me think the same cut and past software was used to prevent any abuse of the landlord).

if you could simplify your questions and ask them fairly (i.e. not rhetorically) we might get somewhere.

we are earnest here, but this board is enjoyed mostly during moments of offtime, and none of us are using a lawyer to read what we are responding to first.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3668090 -


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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3669147 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Religion has nothing to do with verifiable truth.


-thats very true. :grin:

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3669221 -

Quote:
if you could simplify your questions and ask them fairly (i.e. not rhetorically) we might get somewhere.


-which questions would you like me to simplify?

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3669960 -

your mile long post for starters i didnt even read it that was way too much stuff man.

Also you said that God is the only side that has proof. How can you say this? Quoting the bible is not fact no how much you want to believe that it is. just because you can find a quote that says "God is love" doesnt make it true. Like I said if you want to argue these points find something besides the bible to support your case. Unless you have some evidence that supports the supernatural parts of the bible that is. I have no doubt that some of the histories are correct, but like i mentioned earlier, that doesnt make the rest true. Its like the Da Vinci code based on facts but twisted into a good story.

Now on the other hand there is EVIDENCE to support science. There is no EVIDENCE to support religion, if you want to argue come up with something logical, and factual. Here are the definitions.

logical [lɑ:ʒɪkəl]
A adjective
1 logical

capable of or reflecting the capability for correct and valid reasoning; "a logical mind"

2 legitimate, logical

in accordance with reason or logic; "a logical conclusion"

3 consistent, logical, ordered, orderly

marked by an orderly, logical, and aesthetically consistent relation of parts; "a logical argument"; "the orderly presentation"

4 logical

based on known statements or events or conditions; "rain was a logical expectation, given the time of year"

5 coherent, logical, lucid

capable of thinking and expressing yourself in a clear and consistent manner; "a lucid thinker"; "she was more coherent than she had been just after the accident"


factual [f?ktʃʊəl]
A adjective
1 actual, factual

of the nature of fact; having actual existence; "rocks and trees...the actual world"; "actual heroism"; "the actual things that produced the emotion you experienced"

2 factual

of or relating to or characterized by facts; "factual considerations"

3 de_facto, actual, factual

existing in fact whether with lawful authority or not; "de facto segregation is as real as segration imposed by law"; "a de facto state of war"

4 factual

based on fact; "factual accuracy"; "a factual account"

5 factual

characterized by fact; "the factual aspects of the case"


Also i really think you should try to at least imagine what it would be like to have grown up not knowing about the bible or god or anything pertaining to it. Then imagine someone telling you that this book was written 1000's of years ago and its all true. Try to imagine what that would be like.

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: blaze2]
    #3670946 -

How CAN you believe in an ideological abstraction? I trust experience, instinct.

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3671426 -

Sensismoker said:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Religion has nothing to do with verifiable truth.


-thats very true. :grin:


Yes it's true. Once you decide to put faith in an idea, any idea, it's quite easy to convince yourself that there's evidence in everything. To you, the way everything feels around you is evidence that god exists. To me, it is no such thing. I've never felt the need to believe in God, and the whole thing seems like a pretty silly idea.

I do think there is likely some psychological basis for the belief in God, though. When we're children, we see our parents as all good and all knowing. No matter what, our parents have the right answers for everything.

After a certain age, it becomes obvious that your parents are just people like yourself, but your entire view of the world is still based on the idea that there is a "right answer" to everything, that there are reasons to be good, and that there is someone that loves us unconditionally. Hence, we invent god to replace our parents. I'm not sure if this is an accurate explanation of how our minds come to believe in God, but my point is that faith isn't necessarily something magical.

Just because our minds are laid out in such a way that belief in god can easily come naturally does not mean that there is a god.

If there's anything humans are good at, it's believing what we want to believe, and fabricating reasons to justify our beliefs, even if the reasons don't actually make any sense.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Phluck]
    #3671461 -

phluck thats one theory, and a pretty damn good one, on why people may believe in god.

I still think it has to do with humans not likeing to take responisiblitly for themselves, and refusing to believe that something can happen for no "reason".

I think most people dont like to be wrong or not in control of a situation, and i think these are a pretty commonly accepted trait of human beings. I think the reason Man has always cooked up wild fairy tales about Gods thoughout the ages is because by doing so there is always someone else to take the blame "its all part of gods plan" or back in teh day "its the gods will". In addition you have natural distasters that humans even today have no control over, well if we cant control it then by golly there has to be some higher power at work.

thats how i think human minds work. An all powerfull being is a good scape goat becuase there is no way to prove without a doubt that its a lie. No one can prove that there ISNT a god, for the simple reason that if there isnt a god then there can be no proof of his UNexistence, and for some ingnorent or brainwashed people thats enough proof for them.

lets apply the exact same logic to something else

if that way of thinking is true then i talked to aliens yesterday. now prove that i didnt. ahhh thats right its impossible i must be telling the truth....

again sensi smoker if you are trying to have a real discussion about this then at least consider what me and these other people are saying. before you tell me to do the same i already have in teh past and you have said nothing new. but im open to hearing your argument even though i highly doubt that you will end up changing my point of view. Just as you will never see past your brainwashing. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: blaze2]
    #3671811 -

- alright, I'll play your way.

-you want Scientific, Physical Evidence?

HERE WE GO

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3671918 -

-This mainly pertains to the Atheists out there-

Characteristic--------God------SuperUniverse
Transcendence---------yes------yes
Eternal---------------yes------yes
Creation of Universe-designed--random
Intelligence----------high-----low

What we see in the table is a comparison of the two possible types of creators. Both creators must possess certain characteristics in common, such as being eternal and being transcendent to this universe. However, the naturalistic creator must be "stupid" and must have created our exquisitely-designed universe through some sort of random process. For some reason, the atheist chooses to believe that the universe arose randomly by the action of a stupid creator, instead of seeing the obvious - that a well-designed universe would most likely come into being through the actions of an intelligent designer. Let me give you an example. I show you a computer and ask you to make your best choice as to how it came into being:

1.Designed and put together by intelligent human beings.
2.Random computer parts were put into a large box and the parts soldered randomly by spraying molten lead into the box as it was rotated. This process was continued many times until the computer happened to be produced.

-Well, its your choice. Have you checked your tent lately?

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: blaze2]
    #3671921 -

I still think it has to do with humans not likeing to take responisiblitly for themselves, and refusing to believe that something can happen for no "reason".

I definitely think there's some truth to that, the real question is where the need for purpose or a clearly defined morality comes from. Are we born with it, or is it something developed based on what we learn and experience? It's certainly not present in everyone, as there are many people who are consistantly skeptical of any kind of overall meaning.

It would be interesting to try and collect some information on when and how our values are learned. Perhaps some studies looking for how different social values are distributed. I wouldn't be suprised to learn that income/education was a bigger factor than belief system.

I find the origins of belief to be pretty interesting, there's a good book called Why People Believe Weird Things, it's fairly light reading, but it creates a framework of a theory on faith and belief.

I think some people are a little aprehensive to do studies on faith, because anyone funding those studies will be accused of being anti-religion, but I wouldn't be too suprised to see things change a bit as science continues to grow, and science education improves.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3671971 -

Here is the mirror image of what you're saying:

"The believer must choose between two things:
1. Believing in silly fairy tales.
2. Looking at actual evidence."

Your argument is basically:

-Intelligence designs complicated things.
-Life is complicated.
-Therefore life was created by an intelligence.

What if there are other sources of complexity? With a universe that follows a set of physical rules over a huge period of time, it's not that unlikely that a few things would fall together in such a way that they create an object that absorbs more material and duplicates. If you let that thing exist for long enough, it's almost certainly going to change a bit, but keep going, and if you let time go on and on and on... it seems pretty unlikely that it wouldn't continue to change and diversify, each different copy changing a little bit, with the changes that make the little copying machines better at grabbing materials and copying allowing them to copy themselves even more. Then they influence the next round of changes.

It should be noted that computers and humans are very, very different. The computer follows a lot of rules and standards. It is designed to be understood by future engineers, and well organized. The brain is the exact opposite, it puts itself together on the fly, neurons growing and interconnecting with whichever neuron it comes in contact with next, and forming its abilities and skills as it grows.

If anything, comparing a computer and a brain shows that the ways in which they were created are fundamentally different.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Edited by Phluck (01/24/05 10:40 PM)

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Phluck]
    #3672034 -

Quote:
It should be noted that computers and humans are very, very different. The computer follows a lot of rules and standards. It is designed to be understood by future engineers, and well organized. The brain is the exact opposite, it puts itself together on the fly, neurons growing and interconnecting with whichever neuron it comes in contact with next, and forming its abilities and skills as it grows.


If anything, comparing a computer and a brain shows that the ways in which they were created are fundamentally different.


- The comparison of the computer and the universe's origin is intended to show that something of such complexity simply can't(or for probability's sake likely won't) come together on it's own.

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3672137 -

- The comparison of the computer and the universe's origin is intended to show that something of such complexity simply can't(or for probability's sake likely won't) come together on it's own.

But... where is that demonstrated?
A computer couldn't come about with a human... but a human couldn't come about without an ape...(skip a few)...without a fish...(skip some more)...without a cell...(some more)...without bacteria...

It's not too difficult to imagine the simples organism falling together, and from there, it's just baby steps over a very long period of time until you've got the complexities of humans.

And if complexity automatically meant that we were created by a higher power, the higher power's complexity would mean that it was created by a higher power. Is there just an infinite line of gods creating one another?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Phluck]
    #3672154 -

Oh, and if there can be infinite gods, then why not infinite time? And if there's infinite time, then it would be pretty much impossible for life NOT to randomly fall together at some point, creating a huge silly paradox.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Truth or Trash> [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3673054 -

Quote:
Sensismoker said:
-This mainly pertains to the Atheists out there-

Characteristic--------God------SuperUniverse
Transcendence---------yes------yes
Eternal---------------yes------yes
Creation of Universe-designed--random
Intelligence----------high-----low

What we see in the table is a comparison of the two possible types of creators. Both creators must possess certain characteristics in common, such as being eternal and being transcendent to this universe. However, the naturalistic creator must be "stupid" and must have created our exquisitely-designed universe through some sort of random process. For some reason, the atheist chooses to believe that the universe arose randomly by the action of a stupid creator, instead of seeing the obvious - that a well-designed universe would most likely come into being through the actions of an intelligent designer.



By using the term "well-designed", you assume your own conclusion. In that moment, the veneer of logical argument disintegrates. But since that's the point of breakdown, let's take a closer look:

A thing that is designed has a purpose. So a well-designed universe would be one that suits its purpose well. Please prove for us the purpose of this universe and describe how it suits that purpose better than all the other universes out there.

Oh, that's right -- you can't. You have no other universes to compare this one with. You have a sample size of 1. Oopsy; this is gonna be hard...

Quote:
Let me give you an example. I show you a computer and ask you to make your best choice as to how it came into being:

1.Designed and put together by intelligent human beings.
2.Random computer parts were put into a large box and the parts soldered randomly by spraying molten lead into the box as it was rotated. This process was continued many times until the computer happened to be produced.

-Well, its your choice. Have you checked your tent lately?


I am not moved by this example. I can easily compare the computer to things that were randomly shaken in a box, and draw the conclusion that the computer was not assembled by random shaking. What I cannot do is compare this universe to others known to have been designed by Creator Gods or known to have been blown into existence by some random catastrophe.


--------------------

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