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Anonymous

Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3459778 - 12/07/04 03:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

those predominantly black inner-city congregations... buncha fundamentalist lunatics i tell ya...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3459812 - 12/07/04 03:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.




What????? Can you direct me to an explanation of this? My understanding of what the Libertarian position would be is that the government should not be subsidizing anyone's choice of charitable giving, nor should it be involved in defining suitable charities. Are you saying they want to INCREASE the value of tax deductions for charitable giving? Are you sure?




From the Libertarian Party Platform:

We call for the immediate cessation of such fiscal and monetary policies, as well as any governmental attempts to affect employment levels. We support repeal of all laws that impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws, so-called "protective" labor legislation for women and children, governmental restrictions on the establishment of private day-care centers, and the National Labor Relations Act. We deplore government-fostered forced retirement, which robs the elderly of the right to work. To speed the time when governmental programs are replaced by effective private institutions we advocate dollar-for-dollar tax credits for all charitable contributions.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3459848 - 12/07/04 03:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

libertarians aren't opposed to social welfare programs only because of dependency thing. they oppose it mainly because it means initiation of force.

it may be possible to set up a welfare system that makes it unlikely that the welfare system itself would breed dependency, but you could never set up a government welfare program that could be supported without the initiation of force.

voluntary charity is already less likely to create unwelcome dependence and it requires no initiation of force.


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OfflineTao
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: ]
    #3460231 - 12/07/04 04:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

you could never set up a government welfare program that could be supported without the initiation of force.




*government*

since we initiate force for certain things, it seems there is a higher good we are striving for. for many/most that is increased prosperity for the society, the question is can welfare help this or does it just cause dependence. i think what really needs to happen is create some market solutions for the problem, encourage competition among NGO's and charity organizations to provide the best service possible in exchange for subsidies, instead of just handing over a check to those under a certain income.

Quote:


voluntary charity is already less likely to create unwelcome dependence




why do you say that?


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Anonymous

Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3460256 - 12/07/04 04:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

since we initiate force for certain things, it seems there is a higher good we are striving for.

we are each striving for our own higher good. increased prosperity is a relative concept that means different things for different people. we should all be allowed to persue out own vision of a higher good, as long as we allow others to do the same. buraeucrats and public officials are probably the last people in a position to decide what higher good people will orient themselves toward.

yes, all government will initiate force, but doesn't negate the reasons for restraining the power of government over people's lives.

why do you say that?

because when people feel that their voluntary contributions are ending up in the hands of people who don't really need them, they can make contributions elsewhere. not so with a government welfare system.


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OfflineTao
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: ]
    #3460396 - 12/07/04 05:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

allowing people to pursue their vision of the good is only part. enabling them to do so can also be argued to be part. someone stuck on hard times or a child in desititue poverty can have all the negative freedom in the world and it won't do him a lick of good.

the family welfare that 'welfare' generally refers to accounts for somehting like 2% of the govt budget, hardly much of a dent into my ability to pursue my own good and yet it could do a hell of a lot of good for enabling those in hard times to pursue theirs----if the money is put in the correct channels (i.e. not the current ones)


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3460648 - 12/07/04 06:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.




What????? Can you direct me to an explanation of this? My understanding of what the Libertarian position would be is that the government should not be subsidizing anyone's choice of charitable giving, nor should it be involved in defining suitable charities. Are you saying they want to INCREASE the value of tax deductions for charitable giving? Are you sure?




From the Libertarian Party Platform:

We call for the immediate cessation of such fiscal and monetary policies, as well as any governmental attempts to affect employment levels. We support repeal of all laws that impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws, so-called "protective" labor legislation for women and children, governmental restrictions on the establishment of private day-care centers, and the National Labor Relations Act. We deplore government-fostered forced retirement, which robs the elderly of the right to work. To speed the time when governmental programs are replaced by effective private institutions we advocate dollar-for-dollar tax credits for all charitable contributions.




Holy fucking shit! They haven't won elections to be dog catchers and they're selling out their principles. Fucking shoot them now.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3460711 - 12/07/04 06:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

allowing people to pursue their vision of the good is only part. enabling them to do so can also be argued to be part

the government can only enable some to persue their goals by preventing others from persuing theirs.

i have a problem with the government trying, in any shape or form, to hijack the efforts of people and steer society towards a set of arbitrary values that not everyone in society shares.

everyone has different ideals. some want to eliminate poverty. some want to eliminate ignorance. some want to spread their religion. some want to get rich. some to want to convert people to a vegetarian diet. some want to further scientific knowledge. some want to raise children. each person should be allowed to persue their own values. they should not be forced to contribute to the visions of others at the expense of their own.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3460864 - 12/07/04 07:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.




What????? Can you direct me to an explanation of this? My understanding of what the Libertarian position would be is that the government should not be subsidizing anyone's choice of charitable giving, nor should it be involved in defining suitable charities. Are you saying they want to INCREASE the value of tax deductions for charitable giving? Are you sure?




From the Libertarian Party Platform:

We call for the immediate cessation of such fiscal and monetary policies, as well as any governmental attempts to affect employment levels. We support repeal of all laws that impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws, so-called "protective" labor legislation for women and children, governmental restrictions on the establishment of private day-care centers, and the National Labor Relations Act. We deplore government-fostered forced retirement, which robs the elderly of the right to work. To speed the time when governmental programs are replaced by effective private institutions we advocate dollar-for-dollar tax credits for all charitable contributions.




Holy fucking shit! They haven't won elections to be dog catchers and they're selling out their principles. Fucking shoot them now.



It's a transitional thing. They understand that it will be a while before we'll be able to end income taxes, so in the meantime they're proposing things which will give people more controll over how their money is spent.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3461040 - 12/07/04 08:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


the family welfare that 'welfare' generally refers to accounts for somehting like 2% of the govt budget,

Income redistribution(giving poor people free stuff) takes up a hell of a lot more than 2% of the budget.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/13/04
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3472584 - 12/09/04 09:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I don't know what welfare leads to, but I can definitely say that LACK of welfare leads to an increase in crime.




It depends on your definition of crime. I'd say that the government stealing from the people is a crime in and of itself and I'd submit to you that the Constitution backs this belief up.
Quote:


A lot of idealistic conservatives don't tend to face the grim meathook reality of the fact that if poor people are allowed to be poor, eventually they will start robbing and murdering rich people. Its as simple as that.




So I can either have my money stolen by the government to protect me from the thieves or I can have the thieves steal from me directly. How about we just stop welfare and let me deal with the threat upon my person as the Constitution allows me to?
It's interesting that you add murder in this discussion. Why would they murder a rich person? Stealing I can somewhat understand and possibly even justify, but murder?
Doesn't this sound a bit like extortion to you? We have our money taken from us forcefully to prevent others from attacking and killing us. I don't like that one damn bit.
Quote:


So: you don't think that the state has a moral right to take from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. I hope you like dodging bullets.



The concept of "moral right" and "the state" are so far apart that I'm trying to understand how you can group them. Does the state have a "moral right" to ensure that homosexuals don't marry? Morality is somewhat subjective, the common American's understanding of morality at least. If poor people would rather shoot at and possibly kill me for my money rather than working then they deserve the end that they would meet for attempting it.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Offlinenycomyco
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3473132 - 12/09/04 10:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yes. Some people abuse the system. I have a friend with a dad with a severe disability who got a fat check from the gov every month. BUT, you cannot dismiss welfare as only an institution of dependence. The fact is that, in this economic system, there is a section of the population that MUST be worse off than others- they are underrepresented, underprotected, underpayed, underemployed. YES- any one individual in this group can climb the ladder and be successful, but if you look at the whole demographic, this group must exist, or capitalism will not work. So, I'm not supporting the inefficient ways the government funds welfare, but I do agree that the gov should be in charge of dispersing the wealth to empower this group on who's shoulders the higher classes depend most of the time. People will abuse the system, but that does not justify abandoning those in this group who will use the money wisely. Churches can do their part, and so can money.
I think people worry way too much about a poor person abusing the privelage of welfare, and the taxes that support this abuse on a large scale. There are much much larger problems that these individuals who complain about welfare don't seem to mind ie- corporate corruption and tax evasion. The government loses (i think i've heard) in the range of many 10's of billions of dollars (i'll try to find a source) from companies thwarting attempts at tax collection. And Bush stripped the agency that watches over these illegal practices of necessary funding (funding that is a small investment that can save taxpayers much money). I guess if you're anti-taxes, you can say that these companies have a right to avoid paying taxes, but that is just a difference in opinion.
On a different note, one supporting libertarianism, Cb94l mentioned that churches wouldn't necessarily take care of addicts. But does our government imprisonment policy? Even more important than welfare, in my opinion, is the downfall of the war on drugs. Around 250,000 people are in jail for drug offenses, and most have no violent record. They are not criminal types, but the gov says they are because they use/sell drugs. Minorities are highly highly overrepresented in prisons, and are torn from their families, which are often thrown out of housing and have nobody to protect them. Ending the WOD would have a 2-fold beneficial effect on the economy. 1- it would return the inmates to the working world so they can support their families and fill that niche for low-paying jobs that is necessary to the function of society and 2- we would save 10s of billions of dollars a year on prison costs, law enforcement costs. The WOD represents the most disgraceful disregard for the lives and welfare of the lower class.


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Offlinenycomyco
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: nycomyco]
    #3473173 - 12/09/04 10:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Churches can do wonderful things, and volunteers that work with churchgroups and or other charities are extremely generous. But, one flaw i see with the system is that these churches/charities almost always work on the local level. This means that churches in rich areas will have lots of money, but little need to do much in their immediate community, while churches in poor neighborhoods could be wonderful tools in helping many individuals, but they do not have the capital to back it up. Now, I don't think the gov't should hand out money to churches because there is nothing really insuring that they are working fair/ not forcing ideology on people (i'm not saying this always happens), so to me an efficient and "overhauled" system of government welfare is the answer. Charity and church work will always be done out of the charity of the volunteer's heart.


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