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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456316 - 12/06/04 08:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Churches and religious orders provided social services for centuries before state welfare existed. Several Catholic monastic orders were founded solely on the basis of serving the poor.




Thats because it didn't exist before. The church doesn't have the place in society now as it did then. For years religuos orders got money from doweries from wealthy nuns and their place within the government and the vast amount of land that was owned by it. This isn't the case anymore. You can't assume that the church has the same financial clout or personal clout it once did. Do you claim that the lower-classes where better off at this time anyways?

Quote:

Your assertion that abolishing welfare would result in me getting robbed is based in ignorance.




How? People will rob you when they are frustrated with their financial situation. If you have no job and no money and lil billy is crying for food you will find no qualm knocking somebody out for there wallet. Or running a drug ring. You need money now you can't just "go get a job"--they won't pay up front even if you could get a job at that moment. But now there is no unemployment or welfare and you need to eat so its time to go down to the burbs and go play stick-em-up.

Quote:

Fact is that there are several countries much poorer than the US which also have much lower crime rates.




Who cares? This is irrelevant to the discussion.



I'm not saying the current state of welfare works but to get rid of it isn't going to make you any better off. You really get what you pay for. It's minor compared to other fleecing of you taxes that is going on. Alot of people abuse it but it truley helps more people than people who abuse it in my experiance.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3456379 - 12/06/04 08:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:
Quote:

Churches and religious orders provided social services for centuries before state welfare existed. Several Catholic monastic orders were founded solely on the basis of serving the poor.




Thats because it didn't exist before. The church doesn't have the place in society now as it did then. For years religuos orders got money from doweries from wealthy nuns and their place within the government and the vast amount of land that was owned by it. This isn't the case anymore. You can't assume that the church has the same financial clout or personal clout it once did. Do you claim that the lower-classes where better off at this time anyways?



"Better off" is hard to measure. In some ways I'd say yes. In other ways, no. If you grow your own food, you're less likely to starve to death. On the other hand, a lot of them were serfs, bound to land and forced to give up much of what they produced(much like the current tax system). Anyway, you apparently missed my point. I was pointing out that a decline in religion can be attributed to the rise of the welfare state. This is a likely reason why Europe has become so secular while the United States is still strongly religious, and Canada is somewhere in the middle.

Quote:

Quote:

Your assertion that abolishing welfare would result in me getting robbed is based in ignorance.




How? People will rob you when they are frustrated with their financial situation. If you have no job and no money and lil billy is crying for food you will find no qualm knocking somebody out for there wallet. Or running a drug ring. You need money now you can't just "go get a job"--they won't pay up front even if you could get a job at that moment. But now there is no unemployment or welfare and you need to eat so its time to go down to the burbs and go play stick-em-up.



Could you explain to me then why there was a big drop in violent crime during the Great Depression?

Quote:

Quote:

Fact is that there are several countries much poorer than the US which also have much lower crime rates.




Who cares? This is irrelevant to the discussion.



Actually, it's very relevant to the previous point you responded to.

Quote:

I'm not saying the current state of welfare works but to get rid of it isn't going to make you any better off. You really get what you pay for. It's minor compared to other fleecing of you taxes that is going on. Alot of people abuse it but it truley helps more people than people who abuse it in my experiance.



I'm all for a social safety net. I just don't trust the state to run it, and I don't want them running it by force.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3456412 - 12/06/04 08:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

welfare gives over 70% of every tax dollar to overhead. bureaucrats!

private charities give over 70% of every dollar to those who need help.

i love volunteer work, and i have worked with government workers who leave early from a project because they are overtime exempt.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456468 - 12/06/04 09:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I was pointing out that a decline in religion can be attributed to the rise of the welfare state. This is a likely reason why Europe has become so secular while the United States is still strongly religious, and Canada is somewhere in the middle.




I don't believe that. Maybe you should post your term paper or whatever to explain it to me but I feel there is alot more to the rise and fall of welfare vs religion and they have little to do with each other. For instance, does the welfare recipient necessarily preach the word of the government to the same effect as those receiving religious charity? Or the state sanctioned aethism of the soviet union?

Quote:

Could you explain to me then why there was a big drop in violent crime during the Great Depression?




If everybody is broke who you gonna rob? Maybe the implimentation of Social services?

Quote:


Actually, it's very relevant to the previous point you responded to.




No its not because every country is poorer than the US and our violent crime rate is astronomical compared to most industrailized nations.

Quote:


I'm all for a social safety net. I just don't trust the state to run it, and I don't want them running it by force.




How do you have a social saftey net without it being state run? I'm for the states to run this but not the feds. States are more apt to assess their own situation. Its there or it isn't IMO. I guess we are back to the beginning....


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3456480 - 12/06/04 09:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

welfare gives over 70% of every tax dollar to overhead. bureaucrats!




exactly the problem. This system need to be massively overhauled.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3456613 - 12/06/04 09:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
welfare gives over 70% of every tax dollar to overhead. bureaucrats!

private charities give over 70% of every dollar to those who need help.






source?


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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OfflineTao
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456632 - 12/06/04 09:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Could you explain to me then why there was a big drop in violent crime during the Great Depression?





end of prohibition?


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Offlinerezzan1
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3456684 - 12/06/04 09:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
shouldn't they be principally opposed to most forms of charity?




PRINCIPALLY(I guess their is not a group that fits entirely into my princaples, thank god!)

Generally speaking for their entire group is assuming a lot on anyones part. I am oppossed to a welfare system that is constantly abused and which creates dependancy. I am also oppossed to a charity that does the same. I would much rather have a government impower it's lower class, and IMO you do not do that by giving them everything they need.

Doesn't the government want to keep unemployment at a certain rate? Doesn't the government want low wages? I mean if no one is unemployed and wages were at an all time high. How would this nation be than?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3456837 - 12/06/04 10:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:
Quote:

I was pointing out that a decline in religion can be attributed to the rise of the welfare state. This is a likely reason why Europe has become so secular while the United States is still strongly religious, and Canada is somewhere in the middle.




I don't believe that. Maybe you should post your term paper or whatever to explain it to me but I feel there is alot more to the rise and fall of welfare vs religion and they have little to do with each other. For instance, does the welfare recipient necessarily preach the word of the government to the same effect as those receiving religious charity? Or the state sanctioned aethism of the soviet union?



My term paper addresses welfare as one of several factors contributing to the decline of religion in Europe. I didn't devote more than a paragraph to it. As for welfare recipients, I think you'll find that the strongest promoters of socialism in socialist countries tend to be those who benefit most from it. They may not preach it with the same "You're going to hell if you don't believe this" attitude, but they tend to put about as much faith in it.

Quote:

Quote:

Could you explain to me then why there was a big drop in violent crime during the Great Depression?




If everybody is broke who you gonna rob? Maybe the implimentation of Social services?



I think you'd better do some research. Not everyone was broke during the Great Depression. It was a hard time with lots of unemployment, but there were rich people to rob, if they so chose. The difference is that back then, poor people didn't have this attitude about society owing them something.

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, it's very relevant to the previous point you responded to.




No its not because every country is poorer than the US and our violent crime rate is astronomical compared to most industrailized nations.



Ya, funny how that works, huh? I guess being poor doesn't make people criminals after all.

Quote:

Quote:

I'm all for a social safety net. I just don't trust the state to run it, and I don't want them running it by force.




How do you have a social saftey net without it being state run? I'm for the states to run this but not the feds. States are more apt to assess their own situation. Its there or it isn't IMO. I guess we are back to the beginning....



I know this is probably a total shock to you, but do you think that maybe...just maybe...some people care enough about the poor to contribute voluntarily fund such a safety net?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456982 - 12/06/04 10:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I know this is probably a total shock to you, but do you think that maybe...just maybe...some people care enough about the poor to contribute voluntarily fund such a safety net?




I don't question that there would be charities whose sole purpose was to help those in need. What I do question is if there would be a universal system that could cover everyone.

I can imagine that gays, unwed mothers and drug addicts to name a few would have a much harder time finding help compared to say a white christian.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: newuser1492]
    #3457098 - 12/06/04 11:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Then I think you must have very different experiences with Christians than I have. You'd be amazed how many former drug addicts become Evangelical Christians. And the religious people have a very strong reason to look after unwed mothers: to reduce the number of abortions. While gays may have trouble at some charities, there will certainly be other charities, religious or secular, that will be more than happy to serve them. Personally, the think the "white christian" in your example is the one they'd be least interested in helping. Many of them want to "save" people, so they'll likely look for people who they think need saving. Of course, I'm talking only of the more Evangelical Christian groups. Other more mainstream denominations tend to have more open-minded attitudes towards those things than Evangelicals.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3457581 - 12/07/04 12:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

has anyone ever heard of State Taxpayer Choice. (like school choice). the taxpayers could allocate their welfare tax dollars to any qualified charity, public or private. the bureaucrats are fighting it just like the teachers union is fighting school choice.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3457593 - 12/07/04 12:34 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3457615 - 12/07/04 12:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

great, i did not know that. dollar for dollar. that would give the people needing help more choices.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: newuser1492]
    #3458077 - 12/07/04 02:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I can imagine that gays, unwed mothers and drug addicts to name a few would have a much harder time finding help compared to say a white christian.

Not to mention anyone who wants to have an abortion. We would be handing power over life and death to fundamentalist christian lunatics.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3458498 - 12/07/04 04:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Private charity can lead to dependence. For instance, giving clothing and food to poor Africans can wipe out the local businessmen trying to sell clothes and food, creating a situation where withdrawing aid can create more hardship than the aid prevented.

Not all forms of aid necessarily create serious dependence. For example, some disaster relief; or providing food and medical care to people displaced by war. However, disaster relief for people living in areas where disaster (flood, hurricane, earthquake) can be expected can bring a form of dependency.

In my view there are situations in which people or organizations (which could mean the state) should lend a hand. However, the repercussions of the aid should always be considered, and that includes the likely effects of eventually withdrawing aid.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Xlea321]
    #3458537 - 12/07/04 05:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We would be handing power over life and death to fundamentalist christian lunatics.



I believe abortions should be legal, to a point.

I don't believe in Christ by any name.

I don't think abortions should be taxpayer funded.

Does hat make me and those who think like me a "fundamentalist christian lunatic"?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3458658 - 12/07/04 08:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

welfare gives over 70% of every tax dollar to overhead. bureaucrats!




This basically sums it up for me. If governments werent so grossly corrupt and incompetent we could pay far, far less in taxes and it would go a whole lot further.

and another thing, until somebody can prove that there are enough jobs for every single person to earn an acceptable living then the arguement that we shouldnt have to pay for "fat lazy slobs" doesnt hold any water because although there maybe some leeching the system are they in the minority or the majority? and is it fair to prevent other people from gaining the help they need to live, just because some people abuse the system?

We all live as part of a society which like it or not it IS a collective. If the collective system we choose to live in produces a level of society where people live in poverty then of course those at other levels of society shpuld be more than willing to redistribute wealth to help those people out. With a little less selfishness dressed as noble individualism and a more efficient and honest government these sort of problems would soon become irrelevant and we might be able to actually move onto something a little more interesting...


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3458693 - 12/07/04 08:52 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.




What????? Can you direct me to an explanation of this? My understanding of what the Libertarian position would be is that the government should not be subsidizing anyone's choice of charitable giving, nor should it be involved in defining suitable charities. Are you saying they want to INCREASE the value of tax deductions for charitable giving? Are you sure?


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Xlea321]
    #3459732 - 12/07/04 03:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I can imagine that gays, unwed mothers and drug addicts to name a few would have a much harder time finding help compared to say a white christian.

Not to mention anyone who wants to have an abortion. We would be handing power over life and death to fundamentalist christian lunatics.



*sigh* :shake:

Not all religious charities are run by "fundamentalist Christian lunatics."


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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