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OfflineSeraph
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Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 183
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Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
    #2026313 - 10/20/03 04:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I always hate jumping in at the end of a thread but this is my first time in P,A,& L and I found this to be not such a new concept at least the welfare to Workfare part of the conversation...

Just in case any of you werent already aware Workfare already exists in the US as well as austraila which i am not familiar with but since it was already mentioned. Ever hear of TANF? Temporary Assitance for Needy Families recipient must work in order to recieve benefits. Job training is an integrel part of the welfare system in the US thanks to TANF

The system wasnt always like this tho it didnt change until the 1990's.

on another note
I find it funny, that often times people complain about our Public-assistance programs without actually knowing how they work or are at least meant to work. a good percentage of the people and families that recieve public-assistance wont go back on it once they no longer need it. (sorry i cant seem to find the exact percentage)

However TANF and other programs have caused strain on the job market b/c these people are replacing other previously skilled employees that were doing the same job but being paid more.

Other programs - non-cash benefits (foodstamps) are more susceptible to fraud, i believe. The program itself is obviously a good idea in my opinion we just need a better regulatory system, which could be said about a lot of things in the US.

hope im not rambling too much, that just my opinion..



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~nicole

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Seraph]
    #2026372 - 10/20/03 05:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

welcome aboard.

nice bunny :smile:

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InvisibleStarter
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Registered: 05/16/03
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: wingnutx]
    #2027102 - 10/20/03 09:52 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Alex is correct on the electrical subject a.k.a codes in construction.

If you do your own sparky work and it is picked up in an engineer/builders report for not meeting spec (only a fool wouldn't get one when buying a house btw) you'll be knocked back. At best you'll have to drop the bux on the house sale (if you can actually sell it?) or do it again under a retrospective approval *ouch*.

The same laws of building codes not only protect private property, they protect govt property too -- including welfare housing. In short, only qualified people can do such work and for good reason. Put simply, to be an electrician is a career, not a weekend warrior job. There's no debate in that. 240v is deadly.

Furthermore, why should welfare people have to live in dangerous dwellings? They don't, because the laws protect them (well they do here) and that's not going to change. Even though some of the fools in here would like to turn such places into widow making eye sores. It's not going to happen.

Welfare people in welfare housing can even take part of the free govt grant kickstart program to get a deposit up to buy the property, as can private people who meet the assessment of low income. Because private property is looked after better than govt, no debate in that. Last thing wanted is ghetto making by conservative penny pinchers who like the idea that a whole mass of population can never be home owners, thereby escalating the gulf between the have and have-not. Society thrives on a strong middle class.

Back on track, any out right work in workfare would be itinerant (so that slays the idea of them in child care and construction) as you want professionals for that, or the better alternative, the workfare rolled into a sensible career training scheme.

Of course, that would cost more than welfare itself. Education does. That's happening in Australia. Can I say interest free loans to university and reduced technical college admission fees to unemployed people by aptitude test? That's been going on a number of years now with long term unemployed now made mandatory to re-education training schemes. Flipping burgers is not a career folks.

Furthermore, loans already exist for university, they're called HECS (Higher Education Contribution Scheme) and every student gets slugged with it. In technical colleges, welfare and poor folks get a 50% discount on enrollment fees. Mind you, that's early-90's to my knowledge. Things might have changed or their fee costs waved all together? 

Compare that to an excavator, he's 250 grand in a bank business loan at whatever the current % rate be for plant purchase (truck tipper, dog trailer, hydraulic grab bucket excavator) to effect his business, so he runs 7 days a week to pay it off. Life is about debt. Whether you're a builder or a dentist, loans are the call. Yes it costs at first to train/skill people, but they'll give back to society in tax as they contribute for the rest of their working life. They'll even be self funded in retirement. I'm sure the right-wingers in here know that you have to spend money to make money. But do they believe it?

Appears not. They'd be happy to put welfare people without skills/training into *professional positions* to save money in the short term, kill real employment at the same time, even turn govt welfare housing estates into run down dangerous ghettos. That's simply penny pinching short sighted stupidity. Of course I expect some wannabe conservative *yawn* (see next paragraph) to argue that construction is itinerant as they tap keys from an office -- lol if they've actually got a job themselves and not indulged on their folk's PC -- as they clearly know squat about the industry, or run a business or paid off a mortgage ect.

As an aside, I even note one self claimed righty in this thread has posted past in the PAL that he's "upper middle class", more than likely born into money, thus never bust his can to make it himself. Then there's another who's stated he's "uber poor", but in that same post effectively blames the liberals for his lot. Sounds like the sins extreme-leftists pull blaming the capitalists LOL. Then there's another con who can't even afford qualified tradespeople to work on his house. What sort of credible input can one get from that? :smirk: 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
    #2027420 - 10/21/03 12:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Conservation worker. - This is everything from shoveling old ladies sidewalks to planting trees. The jobs that ehy would do are jobs that are not being done now.

So why not create a job to do it and pay them a living wage?

Incidentally, many council workers have jobs planting trees and taking care of the environment. You either have no idea what you are talking about or are making this shit up as you go along. Or both.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Xlea321]
    #2027655 - 10/21/03 01:33 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So why not create a job to do it and pay them a living wage?


Maybe she's poor and can't afford to pay someone to do it.

Hey! I've got an idea. We can get someone on welfare to do it. They're already getting the money, they might as well do something for it.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleHanky
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
    #2027901 - 10/21/03 04:31 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

lysergic....you forget one major point....there will always be a small percentage of people that thru no fault of there own except being born with a low iq are unsuited to any sort of work.
when you try to put these people into anysort of working environment they prove to be a danger to themselves and others working around them.
if you are such a tight ass that you begrudge these people a minimum welfare payment,well under the poverty line then i spit in your face.

go find a more worthwhile drum to beat rather than screaming that the poor must do shit work to futher the amount of misery in there lives.


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Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Hanky]
    #2027929 - 10/21/03 04:57 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I believe he made some exceptions in those cases already.

Even tards work at Wal-Mart.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Hanky]
    #2028092 - 10/21/03 08:05 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hanky said:
lysergic....you forget one major point....there will always be a small percentage of people that thru no fault of there own except being born with a low iq are unsuited to any sort of work.
when you try to put these people into anysort of working environment they prove to be a danger to themselves and others working around them.
if you are such a tight ass that you begrudge these people a minimum welfare payment,well under the poverty line then i spit in your face.

go find a more worthwhile drum to beat rather than screaming that the poor must do shit work to futher the amount of misery in there lives.




After reading your post, I"m assuming that you are one of the people you alluded to. The second post in this thread covers people that are medically unable to work. Also, lets not confus issues here. Medical disability is paid out via the social security system, while welfare is paid out via the STATE RUN welfare system.

Apples and oranges pal, apples and oranges.

After reading your post, something you obviously didn't do to mine, I'd have guess that you must be one of these people you are alluding to. Their is no need for name calling, nor face-spitting. I obviously made it clear that people who are medically unable to perform any work task will be exempt from this program, even tho, as all of us here with a working grasp of how social programs in this country are setup, these people are not now welfare recipients.

I'm going to suggest doing a bit of reading (such as my posts that started this thread), and doing a bit of studying on how things in this country really work.



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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Offlinelysergic
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Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Xlea321]
    #2028104 - 10/21/03 08:13 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So why not create a job to do it and pay them a living wage?




Because the goal of welfare isn't to have every single person on it working conservation projects, it is to support them temporarily while they get back on their feeet and back to their chosen job. It is not a permanent solution/job counceling service. These people would be assigned to a project that really has no end, so that they can do their conservation work on a daily basis, and when they find a job, instanttly be backin the work force, and no project is left crippled because workers are gone.




Quote:


Incidentally, many council workers have jobs planting trees and taking care of the environment. You either have no idea what you are talking about or are making this shit up as you go along. Or both.




Oh cheerio you proper guvvnah! Do you think that their is an excess of people out planting trees or conservation work? The only way that the council workers would be out of a job is if they were doing every ounce of conservation work that exists out there, and they aren't. I Don't see them picking up trash along the highways, do you?

Why are you so against anything that could actually make welfare recipients work for their keep? Are you that anti-rich that you just want to see them pay and pay and pay some more, and not think that the welfare recipients should od ANYTHING for their money? To sum it up, are you totally against any system in which the welfare recipients work for their money? If so, you should pop on out of this thread, because I think you are representing such a small percentage of the socialist/marxist dickfaces out there that your opinion will never matter. Cheerio Guvvnah, more porridge for you, eh you wanker? (Note: I really think british people are idiots, you certinatly are keping that stereotype in place you right proper wanker!)



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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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InvisibleStarter
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
    #2028203 - 10/21/03 09:27 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Hey lysergic, aside name calling me "a moron" in one of your earlier posts in this very thread, yeah despite my point of view being based on Australia and you having to be told (i.e like check my location under my handle eh), you admonish hanky for name calling and then do the very same thing towards Alex, in the very next post. Talk about hypocrisy or is it selective amnesia?

Gets better NOT, you point at Hanky to check out how things happen in this country, when the bloke is in Australia. I mean sheesh, there's only a handful of states in Oz to chalk up, near 10 times that in the US (so check his location eh). And to boot, you sledge Alex and all British people for your ethnocentric insecurity. Ever been to the UK or are you just a TCP/IP traveler?

I won't even go into what a waste of time this (your) thread is:
Considering you'd be more than happy to have poorly skilled and inadequately trained welfare people doing what only qualified tradespeople should, as the body corporate. Just one of your crazy ideas -- when you know nothing about trades industry and that such take years of apprenticeship -- which would of course see the whole thing go to hell in a hand basket. No doubt you'd proudly boast in smug satisfaction that these people are imbeciles who made their estate into a ghetto, when all along you set the poor up for a mismanaged dump. What's new?

This is the sort of bile the disadvantaged cop all the time by righties like you. If you've ever been poor and worked hard to move up because a system had the balances to get you there, you'd know. But you've never had to Mr. silver spoon so of course you don't want the balances. Just look at you.

Quote:

lysergic said:
What is wrong with catering to the rich? The rich pay MUCH MUCH more taxes than the poor people do, thus, they contribute more. I think that it's just part of the anti-White, anti-Rich, anti-American hype that liberals push on others. Well, tough shit, I'm "upper middle class', and I couldn't care less if you whiny poor bastards don't like it




Tragic.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Starter]
    #2028205 - 10/21/03 09:29 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Starter-  Maybeyou should read the definition of "on topic", then read "Ad hom", Even if I insult the moron who posted, I'll also go through and their their moronic post to shreds.

I still stick by my claim,the one that you feel the need to repeat in every thread that I participate in.  I realize that it's a horrible offense in America t ostick up for your own kind (in my case, UMClass people), but, well, tough shit :smile:


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
    #2028220 - 10/21/03 09:39 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Because the goal of welfare isn't to have every single person on it working conservation projects, it is to support them temporarily while they get back on their feeet and back to their chosen job.

No, the goal of welfare is to prevent the job market being flooded with thousands of people who will work for so little everyone elses wages fall through the floor.

These people would be assigned to a project that really has no endno project is left crippled because workers are gone

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but here goes, a job either needs doing or it doesn't. If it needs doing you hire someone to do the job and pay them a living wage.

As hanky pointed out it sounds like you just want people on welfare to dig trenches and then fill them in again all day because your own life is so miserable you want someone to be more miserable than you. You're too gutless to take on anyone who can fight back so you attack the easiest targets - people on welfare and single moms.

Why are you so against anything that could actually make welfare recipients work for their keep?

What are you talking about? I'm against slave labour being introduced into the market putting thousands of people out of work and driving down wages for everyone.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleStarter
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
    #2028229 - 10/21/03 09:44 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
Starter-  Maybeyou should read the definition of "on topic", then read "Ad hom", Even if I insult the moron who posted, I'll also go through and their their moronic post to shreds.

I still stick by my claim,the one that you feel the need to repeat in every thread that I participate in.  I realize that it's a horrible offense in America t ostick up for your own kind (in my case, UMClass people), but, well, tough shit :smile: 




Put your denches in when you speak. You're a joke. 


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Starter]
    #2028247 - 10/21/03 09:50 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Hey once again, off topic. If you'd like to flame me, how about you start a thread for it.  I'll be emailing Rono about this wee wittle comment of yours :smile: and the thread hi-jacking


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
    #2028256 - 10/21/03 09:53 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Johnny, while you're emailing rono remember to point out this one from you to me:

Quote:

Posted by johnnyrespect:

Cheerio Guvvnah, more porridge for you, eh you wanker? (Note: I really think british people are idiots, you certinatly are keping that stereotype in place you right proper wanker!)





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InvisibleStarter
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
    #2028267 - 10/21/03 10:01 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

And what was off topic in my ^above two posts?

Post #1 ^above, addressed, or should I say undressed you, and pointed out how your ideas are untenable. The quote I pulled from another thread was to reinforce how your mind set operates, simply to show that you have no sincerity in the programs/shemes you've hypothetically proposed to field this thread.

(btw, I think you're confusing me with another person who posted that same quote in the Firebombing of Dresden thread. Totally unrelated to me.)

Post#2 ^above, said you make no sense and I guess at best that's the comedy.

Nothing more, nothing less. Very straight forward.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Xlea321]
    #2028291 - 10/21/03 10:13 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

How about I just give the lot of ya a 3 day ban to cool your jets?....would that do the trick?

Seriously...HOW FUCKING HARD IS IT TO FOLLOW THE ONLY RULE THIS FORUM HAS?...Do I really need to start being a dick to get my point across?


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
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Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Rono]
    #2028381 - 10/21/03 10:53 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

This thread seems to have gone way way way off of topic. Rono,if you wanna put her on lockdown, that might be a good idea. Some idiots can't seem to have a proper debate.

Also, I'd like to state that, tho I do insult those that need it, I also reply to their positions.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
    #2028414 - 10/21/03 11:07 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

It would appear that you are missing the point...whether you feel they "need it" or not is irrelevant...no flaming means exactly that.

Apparently I am going to have to do another wave of bans to get my point across for the less astute.



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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