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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
A few "welfare" myths
    #1743353 - 07/24/03 01:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Myths and Facts About Welfare

The general public views poverty as the result of personal failures and deficiencies. This perception rests on several myths. The most prevalent are that poverty results from a lack of responsibility; welfare leads to chronic dependency; African American women make up the largest group of welfare recipients; welfare promotes single parenthood and out-of-wedlock births; welfare provides a disincentive to work; welfare creates a "culture of poverty" because recipients share and hand down to their children a set of defective behaviors, values, and personality traits; and welfare funds extravagant spending by welfare recipients (Ehrenreich, 1987; Katz, 1989). These myths of pathology translate directly to the debate of who deserves help. They also fuel powerful stereotypical racial and gender messages. It is mothers, especially African American and single mothers, who are viewed as undeserving. Unwed mothers are thought to have the choice of marriage and do not obtain the sympathy that widows have. Other groups that are perceived as undeserving are immigrants, especially if they are not fluent in English.

Even the term "welfare" has been pejorative, and distortions of facts about welfare perpetuate myths about public assistance and those who receive it. These negative myths and stereotypes reinforced the government's agenda in cutting welfare spending to those recipients viewed as undeserving. Reform will continue to be ineffective if those implementing it do not separate myth from fact.

Strategies for alleviating poverty and decisions about government spending continue to be closely linked to the perceived causes of poverty, as well as the extent to which these causes are perceived to be modifiable (Furnham, 1982). Poverty is seen as an individual problem or a social issue (such as education or crime) rather than an economic issue (such as unemployment and the economy)(Gallup, 1992). Consequently, solutions are geared toward fixing or punishing those individuals with the "problem." Little attention is focused on societal factors that may perpetuate under- and unemployment, such as inadequate education, transportation, child care, and mental health problems.

Myth: Poverty Results From a Lack of Responsibility
Fact: Poverty Results From Low Wages
Welfare programs have been our country's response to poverty, and everyone agrees that those programs have not solved the problem. Jared Bernstein (1996) of the Economic Policy Institute identifies wage decline as the crucial economic factor that has had the largest impact on poverty rates in the 1980s and 1990s. While hourly rates of pay have fallen for the majority of the workforce since the late 1970s, by far the largest losses have been for the lowest paid workers. According to Bernstein (1996), between 1979 and 1989, the male worker, for example, at the 10th percentile (meaning 90 percent of the male workforce earns more) saw his hourly wage decline 13 percent, and since 1989 he lost another 6 percent. For women workers at the 10th percentile, the decline over the 1980s was 18 percent. The low-wage female worker gained slightly since 1989, but by 1995, her hourly wage rate was $4.84, down from $5.82 in 1979 (all dollars are in 1995 inflation-adjusted terms).

Myth: A Huge Chunk of My Tax Dollars Supports Welfare Recipients
Fact: Welfare Costs 1 Percent of the Federal Budget
Widespread misperception about the extent of welfare exacerbate the problems of poverty. The actual cost of welfare programs-about 1 percent of the federal budget and 2 percent of state budgets (McLaughlin, 1997)-is proportionally less than generally believed. During the 104th Congress, more than 93 percent of the budget reductions in welfare entitlements came from programs for low-income people (Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, 1996). Ironically, middle-class and wealthy Americans also receive "welfare" in the form of tax deductions for home mortgages, corporate and farm subsidies, capital gains tax limits, Social Security, Medicare, and a multitude of other tax benefits. Yet these types of assistance carry no stigma and are rarely considered "welfare" (Goodgame, 1993). Anti-welfare sentiment appears to be related to attitudes about class and widely shared and socially sanctioned stereotypes about the poor. Racism also fuels negative attitudes toward welfare programs (Quadagno, 1994).

Myth: People on Welfare Become Permanently Dependent on the Support
Fact: Movement off Welfare Rolls Is Frequent
A prevalent welfare myth is that women who received AFDC became permanently dependent on public assistance. Analyses indicate that 56 percent of AFDC support ended within 12 months, 70 percent within 24 months, and almost 85 percent within 4 years (Staff of House Committee on Ways and Means, 1996). These exit rates clearly contradict the widespread myth that AFDC recipients wanted to remain on public assistance or that welfare dependency was permanent. Unfortunately, return rates were also high, with 45 percent of ex-recipients returning to AFDC within 1 year. Persons who were likely to use AFDC longer than the average time had less than 12 years of education, no recent work experience, were never married, had a child below age 3 or had three or more children, were Latina or African American, and were under age 24 (Staff of House Committee on Ways and Means, 1996). These risk factors illustrate the importance of structural barriers, such as inadequate child care, racism, and lack of education.

Myth: Most Welfare Recipients Are African American Women
Fact: Most Welfare Recipients Are Children-Most Women on Welfare Are White
Children, not women, are the largest group of people receiving public assistance. Less than 5 million of the 14 million public assistance recipients are adults, and 90 percent of those adults are women (U.S. Bureau of Census, 1995). The majority of the recipients are White (38 percent), followed by 37 percent African Americans, and 25 percent other minority groups (Latinos, Native Americans, and Asian Americans) (McLaughlin, 1997). However, African Americans are disproportionately represented on public assistance because they are only 12 percent of the population (O'Hare, Pollard, Mann, & Kent, 1991).

Myth: Welfare Encourages Out-of- Wedlock Births and Large Families
Fact: The Average Welfare Family Is No Bigger Than the Average Nonwelfare Family
The belief that single women are promiscuous and have large families to receive increased benefits has no basis in extant research, and single-parent families are not only a phenomenon of the poor (McFate, 1995). In fact, the average family size of welfare recipients has decreased from four in 1969 to 2.8 in 1994 (Staff of House Committee on Ways and Means, 1996). In 1994, 43 percent of welfare families consisted of one child, and 30 percent consisted of two children. Thus, the average welfare family is no larger than the average nonrecipient's family, and despite considerable public concern that welfare encourages out-of-wedlock births, a growing body of empirical evidence indicates that welfare benefits are not a significant incentive for childbearing (Wilcox, Robbennolt, O'Keeffe, & Pynchon, 1997).

Myth: Welfare Families Use Their Benefits to Fund Extravagance
Fact: Welfare Families Live Far Below the Poverty Line
The belief that welfare provides a disincentive to work by providing a well-paying "free ride" that enables recipients, stereotyped as "Cadillac queens," to purchase extravagant items with their benefits is another myth. In reality, recipients live considerably below the poverty threshold. Despite increased program spending, the average monthly family benefit, measured in 1995 dollars, fell from $713 in 1970 to $377 in 1995, a 47 percent drop. In 26 states, AFDC benefits alone fell 64 percent short of the 1996 poverty guidelines, and the addition of food stamps only reduced this gap to 35 percent (Staff of House Committee on Ways and Means, 1996).

Despite the ready availability of facts, myths about welfare continue to be widespread. The media contributes to this lack of information. The media helps shape public perceptions about welfare recipients. The way in which a topic is reported can turn a neutral reader into an opinionated reader and can greatly influence public opinion. Although in an analysis of articles published in 10 major newspapers from January 1997 to April 1997, the tone was generally sympathetic to the poor, actual research and facts to counter myths were generally lacking (Wyche & Mattern, 1997).

Recommendations
Federal and state agencies should provide newspapers and other media with accurate information about welfare recipients and programs, including information on welfare reform.
Jobs need to pay better than welfare. Rather than focusing on welfare time limits, policy action at the state and federal levels must address reforming the low-wage labor market by raising wages and increasing the ability of low-wage workers to join unions and bargain collectively.
Public and private agencies should collaborate more effectively to promote and increase employment opportunities for women, especially of hard-to-place women.
States should provide training for case managers and other appropriate personnel to advocate for, support, and follow up with clients in ways that are not adversarial or punitive during their job search process.
States and federal agencies should fund and conduct research on the impact of the transition of mothers to work on the mother and the family and on what strategies best promote most positive outcomes for the mothers and their families.
States should require and fund formative and summative evaluations of proposed programs.

http://www.apa.org/pi/wpo/myths.html


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1743423 - 07/24/03 02:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yup yup. if only we were all jewish....


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744489 - 07/24/03 01:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:Myth: Poverty Results From a Lack of Responsibility
Fact: Poverty Results From Low Wages




So people should take the responsibility of finding a better paying job!  There is always a choice.

Quote:

Alex123 said:Myth: A Huge Chunk of My Tax Dollars Supports Welfare Recipients
Fact: Welfare Costs 1 Percent of the Federal Budget




Well thats still too fucking much!  Being forced to give something for nothing is theft.  Im all for helping the less fortunate volintarily however.

Quote:

Alex123 said:Myth: People on Welfare Become Permanently Dependent on the Support
Fact: Movement off Welfare Rolls Is Frequent




About as frequent as those who stay on for longer periods.  How many go off, then go back on after a few weeks or months?...i wonder...

Quote:

Alex123 said:Myth: Most Welfare Recipients Are African American Women
Fact: Most Welfare Recipients Are Children-Most Women on Welfare Are White




Who cares?!  That doesn't matter.  A mother is responsible for her children not me.

Quote:

Alex123 said:Myth: Welfare Encourages Out-of- Wedlock Births and Large Families
Fact: The Average Welfare Family Is No Bigger Than the Average Nonwelfare Family




Great, then they should be able to support themselves like all the other "average" families.

Quote:

Alex123 said:Myth: Welfare Families Use Their Benefits to Fund Extravagance
Fact: Welfare Families Live Far Below the Poverty Line




I'll let luvs get this one... :smirk:


Welfare is a plague!  Unemployment insurance is not.  What a crock of shit! :thumbdown:



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744500 - 07/24/03 02:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Good post. Cuts through a lot of baseless stereotypes.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1744502 - 07/24/03 02:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Name one!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1744511 - 07/24/03 02:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Practically every one of your replies is based on the assumption that "better paying jobs" are in infinite supply. I'd like to see you prove it.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1744515 - 07/24/03 02:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Not better paying jobs, rather personal choice and will to make a better life for yourself. Poverty is no excuse.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1744554 - 07/24/03 02:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought maybe you had some facts at your disposal, but it seems you only have a great deal of rhetoric, and even more self-righteousness.

There is no doubt that a percentage of welfare recipients do abuse the system. Those people should be identified and forced off. But there are many people who try as hard as possible to be self-sufficient but are held back by systemic lack of opportunity.

For an unemployed person to become employed, one thing is required: a job. A job that that person is capable of doing, and one that pays enough to support the existence of that worker and her dependents. No amount of "personal responsibility" on the part of welfare recipients themselves is magically going to create the hundreds of thousands of jobs that would be necessary to bring them into the workforce. We live in an economic climate in which even trained and educated middle-class workers are losing their jobs in great numbers.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1744609 - 07/24/03 02:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

EchoVortex said:
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought maybe you had some facts at your disposal, but it seems you only have a great deal of rhetoric, and even more self-righteousness.

There is no doubt that a percentage of welfare recipients do abuse the system. Those people should be identified and forced off. But there are many people who try as hard as possible to be self-sufficient but are held back by systemic lack of opportunity.

For an unemployed person to become employed, one thing is required: a job. A job that that person is capable of doing, and one that pays enough to support the existence of that worker and her dependents. No amount of "personal responsibility" on the part of welfare recipients themselves is magically going to create the hundreds of thousands of jobs that would be necessary to bring them into the workforce. We live in an economic climate in which even trained and educated middle-class workers are losing their jobs in great numbers.




Well, you just made the case for welfare reform. That is what everyone, besides most liberals wants. It should be a second chance, not a life long meal ticket.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1744652 - 07/24/03 02:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alex123 said:

I didn't write the article.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1744658 - 07/24/03 03:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No amount of "personal responsibility" on the part of welfare recipients themselves is magically going to create the hundreds of thousands of jobs that would be necessary to bring them into the workforce.

Good point Echo. Sure is refreshing to read a little truth about this once in a while!


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744699 - 07/24/03 03:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The thing that pisses people off are the habitual abusers of the system. This may not be an overwhelming majority, but it is enough to put a large drag on the system.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1744728 - 07/24/03 03:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So when is your flight out of B.C scheduled? This place is the most liberal province in Canada,it must drive you nuts. There is a line to be drawn but welfare has a purpose.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1744795 - 07/24/03 03:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Well thats still too fucking much! Being forced to give something for nothing is theft. Im all for helping the less fortunate volintarily however."

If you're bitchin about 1%, then I'd have to ask how you survive without a heart.

mine might be bleeding, but at least its still there.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: shakta]
    #1744800 - 07/24/03 03:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The thing that pisses people off are the habitual abusers of the system.

Never pissed me off yet. The people that piss me off are the bastards following economic policies designed to create unemployment, drive down wages and then blame everything on people on welfare.


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1744898 - 07/24/03 04:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
If you're bitchin about 1%, then I'd have to ask how you survive without a heart.

mine might be bleeding, but at least its still there.



Exactly. Almost every other civilized country has a welfare system, and they see the US bitch all the time about what little welfare we have. It must make them think "why do Americans only care about themselves?"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1744902 - 07/24/03 04:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:
If you're bitchin about 1%, then I'd have to ask how you survive without a heart.

mine might be bleeding, but at least its still there.



Exactly. Almost every other civilized country has a welfare system, and they see the US bitch all the time about what little welfare we have. It must make them think "why do Americans only care about themselves?"



They don't have a 10th ammendment, we do.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744980 - 07/24/03 04:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Alex123 said:

I didn't write the article. 




No shit?  i was using the quote function, but it doesn't surprise me you thought i was quoting you. :shake: :smirk:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: shakta]
    #1745670 - 07/24/03 08:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Quote:

EchoVortex said:
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought maybe you had some facts at your disposal, but it seems you only have a great deal of rhetoric, and even more self-righteousness.

There is no doubt that a percentage of welfare recipients do abuse the system. Those people should be identified and forced off. But there are many people who try as hard as possible to be self-sufficient but are held back by systemic lack of opportunity.

For an unemployed person to become employed, one thing is required: a job. A job that that person is capable of doing, and one that pays enough to support the existence of that worker and her dependents. No amount of "personal responsibility" on the part of welfare recipients themselves is magically going to create the hundreds of thousands of jobs that would be necessary to bring them into the workforce. We live in an economic climate in which even trained and educated middle-class workers are losing their jobs in great numbers.




Well, you just made the case for welfare reform. That is what everyone, besides most liberals wants. It should be a second chance, not a life long meal ticket.



What makes you think most liberals don't support welfare reform? Clinton did.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineshakta
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1745673 - 07/24/03 08:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I take that back. You are correct. Clinton wanted to, but he didn't do anything unfortunately.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: shakta]
    #1745680 - 07/24/03 08:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I take that back. You are correct. Clinton wanted to, but he didn't do anything unfortunately.



The problem with Clinton was that he only did things if it benefited Clinton.

Since welfare reform wouldn't, he didn't.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshakta
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1745814 - 07/24/03 09:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

He sure was a good talker though.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1746495 - 07/25/03 01:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No shit? i was using the quote function, but it doesn't surprise me you thought i was quoting you.

It's the kind of thing you'd do isn't it tho  :smirk:

Perhaps you'd be better using the Bold option on things I havn't said. 


--------------------
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OfflineDeepDish
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1747496 - 07/25/03 10:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Amendment XVI seems to give congress the power to collect and spend income tax money as they see fit. Since welfare programs have been around for many years and have yet to be struck down by the supreme court, I would say that lends support to the argument that they do follow the constitution. But it never hurts to be proactive, so if you really feel the 10th amendment bars these kinds of social programs, take it to court; it could be the next Roe vs. Wade or Brown vs. Board of Education. I personally think the judge will laugh at you the same way he would a "lefty" who tries to argue that the second ammendment doensn't allow citizens the right to bear arms.




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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DeepDish]
    #1747505 - 07/25/03 10:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Funny, I don't see "spend on anything they wish" in that amendment.

It is specifically to "lay and collect".
Or did I miss a sentence?

And until the 10th is changed or repealed, it's still in force.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1747831 - 07/25/03 01:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it is admirable to want to help people. generocity and compassion are both virtues. i respect anyone who cares about those less fortunate than them and wants to help them with every tool at their disposal. people step over the line however when they use the power of the officials they elect to take from some and give it to others. this is stealing, and stealing is wrong.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: ]
    #1747865 - 07/25/03 01:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"people step over the line however when they use the power of the officials they elect to take from some and give it to others. this is stealing, and stealing is wrong. "

you know what else is wrong? Back when I was in undergrad, I used to work at starbucks. Do you know how many people pulled up in lexuses and mercedes, paid with hundred dollar bills, and left NO TIP!?!?

now THAT'S wrong, man.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1747904 - 07/25/03 01:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hey they're paying enough for the stinking starbucks coffee!!!!...its coffee for fucks sake.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1747927 - 07/25/03 01:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"people step over the line however when they use the power of the officials they elect to take from some and give it to others. this is stealing, and stealing is wrong. "

you know what else is wrong?  Back when I was in undergrad, I used to work at starbucks.  Do you know how many people pulled up in lexuses and mercedes, paid with hundred dollar bills, and left NO TIP!?!?

now THAT'S wrong, man.
 


Ummm, maybe your service sucked?    :wink:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1747931 - 07/25/03 01:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Still luvs, you could have afforded to leave a tip! :wink:


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1747950 - 07/25/03 01:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Ummm, maybe your service sucked?"

not unless I don't get a tip. I remember who tips and who doesn't. I have also bartended and waited tables and found that the rich are notoriously bad tippers. the best are actually low-upper middle class.

me, I'm broke as fuck and I tip the guy who carries my groceries to the car!

anyway, its stupid not to tip a guy who is in total control of what goes into your drink.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1747959 - 07/25/03 01:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, how do you think the rich became rich? By being cheap, of course! Either that or they inherited their rich daddy's fortune.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1747963 - 07/25/03 01:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

anyway, its stupid not to tip a guy who is in total control of what goes into your drink.



Or food.

Wise words. I live by them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1747976 - 07/25/03 02:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Well, how do you think the rich became rich? By being cheap, of course! "

true true. I rememer Elie Wesiel wrote a book about the holocaust and he said that "only the worst jews made it out of the concentration camps alive", meaning that the people who survived were capos and informants and nazi ass-kissers.

i feel the same way about the rich. in a dog eat dog world, only the biggest asshole makes it to the top.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1748002 - 07/25/03 02:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You have to suck, if money is how you determine your success, and worth.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1748009 - 07/25/03 02:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

in a dog eat dog world, only the biggest asshole makes it to the top.



I'm sure many feel that way about those who stay at the bottom, or at least those who don't aspire to better their lot in life.

Besides, line up the poor who wish to be rich, and a seperate line of those who are rich but wish to be poor.

Which is longer?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1748059 - 07/25/03 02:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Besides, line up the poor who wish to be rich, and a seperate line of those who are rich but wish to be poor.



And of the poor who wish to be rich, see how low each of them is willing to go to get there. The ones who would stoop the lowest are the ones most likely to succeed in becoming rich.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1748078 - 07/25/03 02:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Pretty sad generalization.

Sounds like you need to get laid.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1748166 - 07/25/03 02:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That might be what you do luvs, but we all know using your hand..no matter how much you practice....doesn't count! :wink:


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DeepDish]
    #1748655 - 07/25/03 05:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DeepDish said:
Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Amendment XVI seems to give congress the power to collect and spend income tax money as they see fit. Since welfare programs have been around for many years and have yet to be struck down by the supreme court, I would say that lends support to the argument that they do follow the constitution. But it never hurts to be proactive, so if you really feel the 10th amendment bars these kinds of social programs, take it to court; it could be the next Roe vs. Wade or Brown vs. Board of Education. I personally think the judge will laugh at you the same way he would a "lefty" who tries to argue that the second ammendment doensn't allow citizens the right to bear arms.



Excellent point. Also Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1, of the US Constitution states "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States". We've had this debate before, and luvie feels that only conservatives are entitled to interpret what "general welfare" means.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1748772 - 07/25/03 05:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

We've had this debate before, and luvie feels that only conservatives are entitled to interpret what "general welfare" means.



Actually what I said was it doesn't say general welfare of the citizens, but it does say general welfare of the United States.

If you would take the time to read a bit, such as the Federalist papers, the founders speak of what they meant by it. I can assure you it wasn't hand outs to lazy fucks.

While you're at it, read them all. I won't call them a good read, but they are quite informative.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1748807 - 07/25/03 06:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I can assure you it wasn't hand outs to lazy fucks.


I agree, it's definitely not good for the general welfare of the United States to give hand outs to lazy fucks.  But handouts to people who just got laid off, or to people who are retarded, etc... well, that's another story.  :smirk: 


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (07/25/03 06:12 PM)


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1748812 - 07/25/03 06:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

As I said, read the Federalist papers.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1748933 - 07/25/03 06:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I haven't read all these replies to this most excellent post...I'm a little hurriedto throw my two cents in here...

Poverty in a modern society (like the USA), is a result of social engineering. NAIRU theory?

It's when the labour market gets too hot, then interest rates are cranked up to slow the economy, thus increasing unemployment. It is done to preserve the value of assets from inflation. (wage inflation mostly)

It is practised to a greater extent in Canada than USA, but every country employs some form of it.

It relegates a portion of society to poverty. A great man once said..."workers have no bargaining power when there are crowds of unemployed willing to work for less, rather than have nothing" or something to that effect.

Anyways, good post Alex123.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1749039 - 07/25/03 07:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
As I said, read the Federalist papers.
 


Ok, I read them.  And I found nothing supporting your argument that general welfare is not to be used for helping individuals.  The only thing I could find that came close to addressing this issue was under Federalist #30:  "Concerning the General Power of Taxation"

The following statement was made by Hamilton in defense of taxes (something that you are vehemently opposed to, except to support a very limited number of things):

"How is it possible that a government half supplied and always necessitous, can fulfill the purposes of its institution, can provide for the security, advance the prosperity, or support the reputation of the commonwealth? How can it ever possess either energy or stability, dignity or credit, confidence at home or respectability abroad? How can its administration be any thing else than a succession of expedients temporizing, impotent, disgraceful? How will it be able to avoid a frequent sacrifice of its engagements to immediate necessity? How can it undertake or execute any liberal or enlarged plans of public good?"

Now it's debatable what a "liberal or enlarged plan of public good" is, but I found nothing in the Federalist Papers saying welfare couldn't fall into this category.

Can you provide evidence to the contrary?  I can't.  :stoned: 


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1749408 - 07/25/03 10:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Can you provide evidence to the contrary?  I can't.  :stoned: 




Crack out your nachos and DVDs.  You're in for a long wait. 


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1749428 - 07/25/03 10:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:grin: 


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1751160 - 07/26/03 07:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'll find it but kudos for taking the time to look.

You read all those federalist papers? Didn't take you very long as there are dozens.

Pretty dry reading aren't they?

Keep in mind while I'm looking.... there was no welfare in the days it was written. Unless the writers had future sight, they couldn't have used the word welfare in the manner you'd like. Could they?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1751244 - 07/26/03 07:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i was about to say that.

and it's not as though they couldn't concieve the idea of welfare... as though it was some future technology yet to be invented.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: ]
    #1751465 - 07/26/03 09:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I always thought that welfare was basically needed because of the great depression... you know, when capitalism FAILED.

correct me if I'm wrong.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1752084 - 07/27/03 01:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It relegates a portion of society to poverty. A great man once said..."workers have no bargaining power when there are crowds of unemployed willing to work for less, rather than have nothing" or something to that effect.




Bingo! That was exactly what I was trying to get across in a recent thread. I remain with open mind to hear a Capitalist apologist attempt a sincere address to this problem. So far stoicism or feigned obtuseness are all I've heard. If that's all they have, then maybe they should stop griping about "left-wing" alternatives.

btw, Who was the great man?


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: shakta]
    #1752325 - 07/27/03 04:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Well, you just made the case for welfare reform. That is what everyone, besides most liberals wants. It should be a second chance, not a life long meal ticket.




I'm with you, I'm for reform, and I think there's a big need for it. But actually, a lot of posters here have spoken out against any type of government welfare, and they might say that the idea for reform is liberal.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1752700 - 07/27/03 11:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Keep in mind while I'm looking.... there was no welfare in the days it was written. Unless the writers had future sight, they couldn't have used the word welfare in the manner you'd like. Could they?



They used it in such a way that it could be interpreted to mean welfare as we know it today.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1752709 - 07/27/03 11:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i disagree.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: ]
    #1752889 - 07/27/03 02:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No one who shares your disagreement has made an effective case in court.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1752986 - 07/27/03 02:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Keep in mind while I'm looking.... there was no welfare in the days it was written. Unless the writers had future sight, they couldn't have used the word welfare in the manner you'd like. Could they?



They used it in such a way that it could be interpreted to mean welfare as we know it today.



Bullshit.

It's used quite plainly and simply.

You can't use a word today, and imply it will mean something totally different 200 years from now. Do you really think, even for an instant, that when the constitution was written the founding fathers, who prided themselves on independence, who left a country and fought a war for independence, and wanted the most minimum government possible, were thinking "lets use the word welfare here so that in a couple hundred years the government can take from the rich and give to the poor?"

Get real.

Do you think the word "gay" 200 years ago was implying what it's come to mean today?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1752988 - 07/27/03 02:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
No one who shares your disagreement has made an effective case in court.



I'm not aware of anyone even trying.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753021 - 07/27/03 03:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"lets use the word welfare here so that in a couple hundred years the government can take from the rich and give to the poor?"

That's your "interpretation" of what welfare is. Certainly got nothing to do with what welfare actually is.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: hongomon]
    #1753048 - 07/27/03 03:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hongomon writes:

Quote:

It relegates a portion of society to poverty. A great man once said..."workers have no bargaining power when there are crowds of unemployed willing to work for less, rather than have nothing" or something to that effect.




Bingo! That was exactly what I was trying to get across in a recent thread. I remain with open mind to hear a Capitalist apologist attempt a sincere address to this problem. So far stoicism or feigned obtuseness are all I've heard. If that's all they have, then maybe they should stop griping about "left-wing" alternatives.


Ah. You certainly are enamored of the phrase "feigned obtuseness", aren't you?

Is it not obtuse to presume that simply because there is more than one human on the planet, NO human has the right to live his life as he chooses? No one has ever been able to defend that premise logically, and no one ever will.

I don't often quote "great men", but since some here seem to set great store in quotes from un-named "great men" (appeal to anonymous authority), I guess no one will object if I do the same --

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all."

and

"Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not give a dime to a beggar. That is not the issue. The issue is whether you DO or do NOT have the right to exist WITHOUT giving him that dime."

Should I hold a contest to see who can guess the authors of the above statements?

As for workers having no bargaining power if there are crowds of workers willing to work for less, that is untrue. If this were really the case, no non-unionized company would ever pay their employees more than either minimum wage or union scale. In reality there are thousands of companies who routinely pay more. I know this is the case because I have worked for several myself.

Hongomon, your position seems to be that it is wrong for companies to offer employment to people on terms they would willingly (in many countries, even GLEEFULLY) accept -- such companies should offer employment only if they will do so under terms that "left-wingers" from the wealthiest country on the planet would accept. If they can't do so, it is better for them not to offer employment at all. Excuse me if I find this position a textbook example of "feigned obtuseness".

What is "stoic" about either accepting an offer of employment or rejecting it? What is "obtuse" about offering employment at the rate one is willing to pay?

As I have said in the past, you use words differently than most people do. Sometimes I really wish I had a secret "Libbie-speak" decoder ring.

pinky


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753065 - 07/27/03 03:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The founding fathers worded the Constitution vaguely enough so that it could be reinterpreted with the changing times. Remember also when you talk about the right to keep and bear arms that back then "arms" meant rifles and muskets, not Uzis and M-16's.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1753070 - 07/27/03 03:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

1. JSM
2. AR


--------------------
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1753076 - 07/27/03 03:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Weak.

Arms still means arms despite there being different types of arms.

Press still means press despite there being different types of press.

Welfare never meant payments / income redistribution when the writers created the constitution.

Your arguement is more than just lame.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753118 - 07/27/03 03:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

One right, one wrong.

pinky


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753121 - 07/27/03 03:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And who are you to say that having a social welfare program isn't in the best interest of the United States. Of course when the founding fathers wrote the constitution, their idea of general welfare for the United states was not what we think it today. The definition they were probably using was;

A. Health, happiness, and good fortune; well-being.
Prosperity.

So we know that constitution says:

1. Congress has the power to levy taxes on income
2. Congress can provide for the welfare (definition A) of the United States.

Therefore, if at some point congress decided that it was in the United States well being to have a social welfare program, and they wanted to use 1% of the taxes they collected to support this program it would hardly be unconstitutional. At some point Congress did decide to enact this policy, and they did so with a large amount of information that normal people don't have access too (poverty studies, crime statistics, ect). You have accused a number of post here of being left wing conspiracy theories (WMD, 9-11 conspiracies), don't mistake me, on most of them I agree with you, but the "Welfare is a handout to lazy fucks" statment seems like a classic right wing conspiracy. It sounds as if our congressmen sit around saying "Well how should we spend our taxes this year", "Gee maybe we should just hand money out to some lazy fucks, that sounds like a good idea."

To end this, is one example of how a social welfare progam, can improve the general welfare of the United States as a whole. If you look up crime statistics, you will notice the trend that the crime rate is directly proportional to the economy of the country and that most people committing crimes are the poor, or drug users. Welfare, plays in important role by providing needy people, with the means to survive without turning to crime. If you don't believe me, look at any country with a strong social welfare program, crime in Sweden is almost non-existant. I think 1% of your yearly wage is a small price to pay.





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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1753138 - 07/27/03 04:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Crap.....
1 is of course FB


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DeepDish]
    #1753156 - 07/27/03 04:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And who are you to say that having a social welfare program isn't in the best interest of the United States.



I'm someone who believes we should follow the 10th amendment.


General welfare = well being of the country. If they had meant the people, they would have said the people. After all it's not as if they didn't use those words when that was what they meant.


Quote:

Therefore, if at some point congress decided that it was in the United States well being to have a social welfare program, and they wanted to use 1% of the taxes they collected to support this program it would hardly be unconstitutional.



Read the 10th amendment and then try again.


Quote:

I think 1% of your yearly wage is a small price to pay.


Good, then you pay my 1% back to me.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753178 - 07/27/03 04:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Press still means press despite there being different types of press.



Actually, I believe that a while back, the FCC decided that freedom of speech did not apply to radio or TV.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1753204 - 07/27/03 04:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

First, it's not up th the FCC to define what press means. It's up to the legislature and the Supreme Court.

Now, here are the way the writers looked at the term "general welfare".....

The Framers specifically on public charity:

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." - James Madison criticizing an attempt to grant public monies for charitable means, 1794


The Framers Speak:
Long has it been acknowledged that Congress's powers were limited as described above by Article I, Section 8. Here the framers acknowledge this Section as a limiting factor, proving that today's misinterpretations, which allow full justification for practically anything Congress desires to do under the guise of this often misread and forgotten section, are both erronious and absurdly illogical.

Proof of intentional and strict limitations on the authority and power of Congress:
"[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any." - James Madison, Federalist 14

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce." - James Madison, Federalist 45

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but
an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

Note the reference to "General Welfare." Please do not confuse this with "social welfare" as we know it today, or public charity. The two are distinctly different as will be addressed later in detail

"The Constitution allows only the means which are ?necessary,? not those which are merely ?convenient,? for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed" - Thomas Jefferson, 1791

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson, 1798

There we have it! Proof that both the Father of the Constitution and unquestionably our nation's foremost expert on the Constitution, James Madison, AND the Father of American Independence, Thomas Jefferson, specifically acknowledging Congressional powers to be strictly limited and defined - quite a long shot from today!
One distinction must be noted though. Jefferson and Madison were by no means representative of the opinions of all the framers. They were both strict constitutionalists representative of those very fearful of the strength of the new government. For that reason I turn to the other side most represented in Alexander Hamilton - one that believed in a looser interpretation.

"This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

Here Hamilton specifically acknowledges that all congressional powers are enumerated (necessary and proper relationships included as such an enumeration). Hamilton notes that the existance of these enumerations alone makes the notion that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires for if such broad congressional power was intended, specifications of powers (the 18 enumerated powers) would be useless.

"No legislative act ? contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 78

This quotation furthers the above statement by acknowledging legislation contrary to the Constitution to be unconstitutional. Since powers of Congress are enumerated and done so binding Congress to these powers alone (necessary and proper related powers included), a power outside of these enumeration without reasonable relation must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore unconstitutional.

Edit: forgot the link
Link



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/27/03 04:28 PM)


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753208 - 07/27/03 04:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Arms still means arms despite there being different types of arms.

But you're convinced that a "well-regulated militia" actually meant "civilians"?

Which "well-regulated militia" do you belong to?


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753215 - 07/27/03 04:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

General welfare = well being of the country. If they had meant the people, they would have said the people. After all it's not as if they didn't use those words when that was what they meant.




The country is the people, is it not. Any country is defined by the people who live in it, and what is in the best interests for the majority of the people is also that of the country. Hence the founding fathers decision to make our country a democracy. If you would care to show how something could be done for the well being of the country and not for the welfare of the people in turn, I will be most impressed.




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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753233 - 07/27/03 04:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Arms still means arms despite there being different types of arms.

But you're convinced that a "well-regulated militia" actually meant "civilians"?

Which "well-regulated militia" do you belong to?



Well Alpo, we've shown you the error of your thinking on this many times, but to humor you....

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ? and include all men capable of bearing arms." - Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169

"What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty." - Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress at 750 (August 17, 1789)

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." - George Mason, 3 Elliott, Debates at 425-426


I don't know why I bother seeing as this has been covered in several threads before this which it appears you haven't read.

Please read them now.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DeepDish]
    #1753242 - 07/27/03 04:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Read the above quotes. I see to need to rephrase the words of the founding fathers themselves. I couldn't possibly do them the justice they so richly deserve.

Your wishing the constitution means what you'd like it to mean is pointless. It does not and the writers themselves say so with their written words.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753247 - 07/27/03 04:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And I've demolished that argument many times too luv. The only thing that matters is what the second amendment actually said. It says "well-regulated militia".

I repeat, what "well-regulated militia" do you belong to?


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753255 - 07/27/03 04:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You've demolished nothing but your credibility on this issue.

If I do or do not belong doesn't matter.

So say the writers of the constitution.

If you don't like the way they phrased it, and that they included the right, take it up with them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753256 - 07/27/03 04:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Your wishing the constitution means what you'd like it to mean is pointless. It does not and the writers themselves say so with their written words.

Once again luv, address what the amendments actually say. Not someones interpretation of what they say. Address the reality, not fantasy.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753260 - 07/27/03 04:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Those quotes were from the writers, who better to say what they meant?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753266 - 07/27/03 04:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The amendments themselves.

They took great care in how they phrased them. You can't say "Well one guy involved in the writing of them said this, so that must be what they meant".

It doesn't work like that.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753269 - 07/27/03 04:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So you know better than the writers?

Gosh... you're awesome.

:lol:

A legend in your own mind.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753275 - 07/27/03 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So you're saying we should pay no attention to the amendments themselves but what some guy said in the federalist papers? Are you serious?

Read what the amendments said. Seems obvious enough.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753282 - 07/27/03 04:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Using the language of the day , they are obvious enough.

Too bad you seem unable to do so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753311 - 07/27/03 05:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nope, the language of the day included the word civilians. If they had meant civilians they would have said civilians. They're was certainly no need to include "well-regulated militia".

What "well-regulated militia" do you belong to?


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753323 - 07/27/03 05:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Not even a good try Alpo.

The word people is included. The definition of the word people hasn't changed at all.

The definition of the word militia, while it has evolved to include our current understanding of the word, has always included civilians / citizens.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753337 - 07/27/03 05:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"And who are you to say that having a social welfare program isn't in the best interest of the United States.

I'm someone who believes we should follow the 10th amendment.
General welfare = well being of the country. If they had meant the people, they would have said the people. After all it's not as if they didn't use those words when that was what they meant."

Seriously? Are you trying to say that you don't want what's best for the people? That you prefer strictly following an amendment to making sure as many people as possible has it as good as possible? Remember, the amendments were written by human beings and is not neccesarily perfect. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753343 - 07/27/03 05:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe welfare is good for the country or the people. (other than those it allows to sponge off of others)

Yes, the amendments should be strictly followed. That's why they were written.

Fight to add a welfare amendment if you wish.

I'll be fighting against it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753349 - 07/27/03 05:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

if they ment civilians, why did they write well-regulated militia?

why does it seem to me that you are more concerned with your right to bear arms, than the general welfare of other people? and what more proof do you need to approve welfare than the simple fact that countries with good welfare systems have a lower crimerate, and are generally better to live in?


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753354 - 07/27/03 05:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Because the militia of the day was, was in their words, every able bodied male.


Quote:

why does it seem to me that you are more concerned with your right to bear arms, than the general welfare of other people?



One is constitutional, one is not.

I'm concerned with the constitution. If you want to help others, donate to charities. The federal government does NOT have the lawful ability to steal from me and give to those who have not earned it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753356 - 07/27/03 05:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"General welfare = well being of the country. If they had meant the people, they would have said the people"
Explain what "the country" is, and why it is more important than the people.
Also, explain why they write exactly what they mean some places, and "well-regulated militia" elsewhere when they don't care about regulation at all and hand out guns to nearly everyone who wants them.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753361 - 07/27/03 05:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The words of the writers of the constitution have been pasted in this thread. Read them.

The term well regulated militia is exactly what they meant to say as in their day, a militia was evey able bodied male. It's not my fault you either can't or won't read what the wrote. It's been pasted.

Where did you get the idea the government hands out guns to anyone?

I had to work for the money to buy mine.

Perhaps you can tell me where the line for free guns begins?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753383 - 07/27/03 05:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yelimS asks:

if they ment civilians, why did they write well-regulated militia?

They talked funny back then. In the popular use of the terms at the time, "well regulated" did not mean official, organized or supervised at all. It simply meant a militia that could do its job well. A well regulated watch kept good time, a well regulated oven held an even temperature, a well regulated rifle was accurate, and a well regulated militia fought well.

The militia was every able-bodied man, not a specific group like the National Guard. It is the reason for the Second Amendment protecting the individual's right to keep and bear arms, not a requirement. You still have that right even when there is no active militia formed. Just as you have the right to freedom of speech even if you don't own a paper, magazine, radio or TV station, are not a reporter or publisher, heck, even if you can't talk.

Back to the grammatical structure of the amendment:

It reads "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Some misinterpret this to mean that only the well-regulated militia, that is, something like the National Guard, has the right to keep and bear arms. Why, it says it right there in the Amendment! Grammatically, it says no such thing; it is an explanatory clause, not a restrictive one. Which part of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" do you find unclear?

Let's construct a parallel sentence with exactly the same construction but on a less emotionally-charged subject:

"A well-crafted pepperoni pizza, being necessary to the preservation of a diverse menu, the right of the people to keep and cook tomatoes, shall not be infringed."

Try to argue that this statement says that only pepperoni pizzas can keep and cook tomatoes, and only well-crafted ones at that.

pinky



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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753397 - 07/27/03 05:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I knew you'd think i ment they handed out guns for free. I'm sorry, I was too lazy to write that I think it's far too easy to get guns in the US. You don't even have to be an able bodied male, you can even be legally insane, isn't that correct?
However, what I think is worst isn't your gun ideas, it's that you prefer a law to the actual well-being of the people, like the law were words from the Gods.
And please explain why the country is more important than the people, and what the difference is.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753403 - 07/27/03 05:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I knew you'd think i ment they handed out guns for free. I'm sorry, I was too lazy to write that I think it's far too easy to get guns in the US. You don't even have to be an able bodied male, you can even be legally insane, isn't that correct?



There are criminal record & mental health checks.


Quote:

However, what I think is worst isn't your gun ideas, it's that you prefer a law to the actual well-being of the people, like the law were words from the Gods.



The amendments are not "laws", they are the words which control the laws.


Quote:

And please explain why the country is more important than the people, and what the difference is.



As I said before, read the quotes from the writers.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753450 - 07/27/03 05:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

sorry im to lazy to use quote, but it's getting late
"There are criminal record & mental health checks. "
still too easy. do you disagree that many people who shouldn't have had guns have them anyway?

"The amendments are not "laws", they are the words which control the laws."
I know that, and you know what I meant.

Well, it seems we're debating two different things here. You're debating that welfare is unconstitutional, and I don't care one bit for your constitution, A: because I have different constitution, and B: because a constitution can never be perfect because it is written by humans, and thus we should use it as guidelines, but not limit ourselves to what they say. I care for the general well-being of the people, and if the constitution says my means are illegal, then they'll just have to be, but I'll keep defending them.

Pinksharkmark: I'll accept your explanation, but I still think something should be done to improve gun control.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753465 - 07/27/03 06:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

still too easy. do you disagree that many people who shouldn't have had guns have them anyway?



Yes I disagree. Somewhat less than 3% of leagally owned weapons are ever used in the comission of a crime.


Quote:

I don't care one bit for your constitution



What a horrible tragedy!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753485 - 07/27/03 06:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Somewhat less than 3% of leagally owned weapons are ever used in the comission of a crime."
Too much.

"What a horrible tragedy!"
I don't know what to make of this. Are you being sarcastic or can't you think of anything to say?


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753506 - 07/27/03 06:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Too much.



Your opinion. It's much less than in some countries. Look it up if you care to.


Quote:

Are you being sarcastic



Yes I am. The opinion of someone not from this country, as regards to our constitution, matters not at all to me.

Just as I'm fairly sure, my opinion of Norway, if that is where you're from, matters little to you.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753522 - 07/27/03 06:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, I'd be just as interrested to hear what you have to say about our politics as what you have to say about any politics. It's still politics, and I want to debate the idea of welfare, not whether or not it's constitutional, as that's just a topic for americans, but the idea of welfare is a topic for anyone.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753554 - 07/27/03 06:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Fine, I believe welfare is a big mistake. I think it encourages laziness from those who collect it, bitterness from those who are forced to pay taxes for it, and it has led to a decline in the family as the benefits are higher for single parent families. There should be no welfare, social security, or medicare.

Now, I hope it works better in your country than it does here, because here it sucks.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753673 - 07/27/03 07:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it does and i suggest you look at examples from other countries before you dismiss it.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753680 - 07/27/03 07:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I said I hope it works better, not if it does it's a good idea.

There should be no welfare under any circumstances.

Private charities, fine. Welfare, no.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753764 - 07/27/03 08:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If they meant every able bodied male,then why do females own guns? :grin: If your wife has a gun,Luv,I'm notifying the authorities.


One could interpret "well-regulated militia" a million different ways.

Take the constition for what it is-an aged document that was probably written vaguely on purpose that can be interpreted in many different ways (funny how it seems that people are always bending it to further their own agendas).
I don't remember reading "this doesn't apply to people of color,the poor,or women" in the constitution either,but that's how our founding fathers applied it at the time.So you can cite the Federalist papers and all that jazz all you want,but our founding father's seemed pretty damn hypocritical and contridictory by their actions.

Totally unrestricted capitalism with no socialist support would mean the downfall of civilization,in my view.

Do you really think Billy Gates "earned" that couple billion or so he has? I'm sorry,but no one is that important.No one deservers that much money.No single person can possibly contribute that much to society. But that's the way capatalism works. The people at the bottom do most of the work,and the people at the top  bend the laws in their favor,don't produce a damn thing in most cases,and make all the money. It's also funny how corporations are treated like individuals under the law,but the law says otherwise. When's the last time someone's had their corporate charter revoked? 


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: monoamine]
    #1753790 - 07/27/03 08:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If they meant every able bodied male,then why do females own guns?



Perhaps because it's no longer the 1700's?


Quote:

One could interpret "well-regulated militia" a million different ways.



Yes, one certainly could. However the ONLY correct interpretation is that of the writers. There are more than enough of their writings to have no doubt what that is.


Quote:

So you can cite the Federalist papers and all that jazz all you want,but our founding father's seemed pretty damn hypocritical and contridictory by their actions.



In their time it wasn't hypocritical. It's just how it was. I don't recall ever seeing them say that women had no rights. If you're aware of them having done so, please show me where.


Quote:

Totally unrestricted capitalism with no socialist support would mean the downfall of civilization,in my view.



We should all have a view. Mine is backed by the constitution and written words of the founders. Yours are backed by feelings. Sorry man but the written word trumps your feelings. If it didn't, whos feelings would we go by? Yours? Mine? John Does?


Quote:

Do you really think Billy Gates "earned" that couple billion or so he has?



Yup.


Quote:

No one deservers that much money.



I do.  :smirk:


Quote:

But that's the way capatalism works. 



And should.


Quote:

 


 


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: monoamine]
    #1753804 - 07/27/03 08:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

grandmasterfat writes:

One could interpret "well-regulated militia" a million different ways.

Even if one could, it is irrelevant. The right of the people to bear arms is still protected.

Totally unrestricted capitalism with no socialist support would mean the downfall of civilization,in my view.

Why do you believe that? By what process of reasoning did you arrive at that conclusion?

Do you truly believe that in order for "civilization" to survive, peaceful, non-interfering people must have force used against them? Can you please provide some supporting arguments for your position?

Do you really think Billy Gates "earned" that couple billion or so he has? I'm sorry,but no one is that important.No one deservers that much money.No single person can possibly contribute that much to society.

What if some guy discovers a surefire vaccination against AIDS. He patents it and gets a lousy buck for every shot sold. How can you argue that he wouldn't have earned that money?

As for Bill Gates, you say he hasn't earned all his money. Are you saying he inherited it? Stole it? The fact is that he sells stuff to people. People are free not to buy his stuff. For example I have never bought a Microsoft product and I have owned a personal computer since 1984.

But that's the way capatalism works.

If you mean that Capitalism works by people voluntarily exchanging goods and services, you are correct. What is your problem with that? You seem to be of the opinion that coercion must be thrown into the mix. Why?

pinky


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753823 - 07/27/03 08:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps because it's no longer the 1700's?



Yeah,people no longer carry muskets either. I think you know were I'm going with this one...so I'm no even going to bother.
They did say "men" in the Federalist papers and whatnot. If you'
re going to cite this stuff so much,it's either all or nothing.If you want to go word for word,then women shouldn't own guns. I think you're being a bit hypocrital in that respect.

Quote:

However the ONLY correct interpretation is that of the writers.




What is the "correct" interpretation? I do think interpretation involves opinion,no? You're also assuming every writer of the constitution had the same exact interpretation.

Quote:

In their time it wasn't hypocritical. It's just how it was.




I don't think hypocrisy is limited to a time peroid. I don't think "it's just how it was" is a very good arguement.

Quote:

Sorry man but the written word trumps your feelings.




See the "interpretation and opinion thing" above.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: monoamine]
    #1753837 - 07/27/03 08:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah,people no longer carry muskets either.



Yup, and they read newspapers too. See where we both can go?


Quote:

If you want to go word for word,then women shouldn't own guns. I think you're being a bit hypocrital in that respect.


Hey, I can live with women being chattel, and not having the right to vote and what not. Good luck turning back the hands of time.  :wink:


Quote:

You're also assuming every writer of the constitution had the same exact interpretation.



I'm aware of the supporting writings. Perhaps you can show me some that didn't?


Quote:

I don't think "it's just how it was" is a very good arguement.




No, it isn't. Which is why times have changed and *gasp* women have rights. They didn't know any better when they wrote the constitution. Spank those that taught them if you wish.


Quote:

See the "interpretation and opinion thing" above.



I did. They were weak.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: monoamine]
    #1753882 - 07/27/03 09:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I see all you "righties" (Can we please stop using all this rhetoric and stereotype crap?) point out that "lefties" are unrealistic. I think your idea of capatlism is quite a bit "utopian", to say the least. Unrestricted capitalism is just going to divide the line between the rich and poor even further. And the idea that most rich businessman earned the money is simply absurd to me.Contrary to what you seem to think, most wealth is inherited. I do think if you work harder than someone else you deserve to get payed more,but Billy Gates did not earn his dozens of billions or whatever the hell he has. He used fucked up loopholes in the law and bullshit beucratic business games to get where he is. Money stands for resources,and they are only so many resources for humans to share. When someone has that many resources,he's taking them from other people,plain and simple.
Contrary to what Ayn Rand (btw,Atlas Shrugged is the biggest piece of garbage ever written) says,capitalism does not allow the cream to rise to the top.If that were true,90% of PC's wouldn't be using windows.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753884 - 07/27/03 09:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You are aware, of course, that the constitution can be changed.

Right?


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1753889 - 07/27/03 09:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
You are aware, of course, that the constitution can be changed.

Right?



Of course, but it's a deliberately difficult process. It's been changed many times. Too many. (does prohibition ring any bells?)

Those who wish to change it via a constitutional convention should be careful they don't get what they wish for.

If for example a convention is called.... ALL the amendments are open to change.

Of course 3/4's of the states can vote to change it. There's actually a debate on whether the amendment allowing an income tax was ever properly ratified by the full 3/4's in the alloted amount of time.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: monoamine]
    #1753968 - 07/27/03 09:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

grandmasterfat writes:

I see all you "righties" (Can we please stop using all this rhetoric and stereotype crap?) point out that "lefties" are unrealistic.

So you have no answers to my questions. *shrugs* Okay, then.

I think your idea of capatlism is quite a bit "utopian", to say the least.

Who here has ever said Capitalism is perfect?

Unrestricted capitalism is just going to divide the line between the rich and poor even further.

Can you support this assertion through a line of reasoning, please?

And the idea that most rich businessman earned the money is simply absurd to me.

This is because you haven't bothered to actually research the subject. There are far more businessmen becoming HWIs (high wealth individuals) every year than there are wealthy people dying and leaving their money to their heirs every year by at least one order of magnitude. If they didn't earn the money, how did they get it? Steal it?

Whether you find the idea repugnant or not, most rich businessmen (in the US, at least -- can't speak for Russia or Norway) didn't start out rich at all. That is not an opinion, that is a fact, and easily checkable.

Contrary to what you seem to think, most wealth is inherited.

Absolutely untrue, at least in the US. Source, please?

As an aside, note that the wealthiest individual in the world, the aforementioned Bill Gates, did not inherit his wealth.

I do think if you work harder than someone else you deserve to get payed more,but Billy Gates did not earn his dozens of billions or whatever the hell he has. He used fucked up loopholes in the law and bullshit beucratic business games to get where he is.

If he broke the law he of course should be tried and convicted.

Money stands for resources,and they are only so many resources for humans to share.

Ah. I see your error. You are equating currency with wealth. You compound your error by equating resources with wealth. Neither is correct. A free market economy is not a zero sum game. Wealth is created through productive human effort.

When someone has that many resources,he's taking them from other people,plain and simple.

Incorrect. What did Bill Gates take from other people? The opportunity to develop and sell a computer operating system? The chance to write a killer spreadsheet program or word-processing program? Or do you mean that he is taking (rather than buying) wood pulp resources from someone by printing too many "Microsoft Office" manuals?

Contrary to what Ayn Rand (btw,Atlas Shrugged is the biggest piece of garbage ever written) says,capitalism does not allow the cream to rise to the top.

Ayn Rand didn't invent Laissez-faire Capitalism, nor is she even its most convincing apologist. Further, the point of Capitalism is not to allow the cream to rise to the top, but to allow people the freedom to live as they choose as long as they don't fuck with anyone else. What is your objection to allowing people their right to exercise this freedom?

pinky


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1754025 - 07/27/03 10:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Didn't Gates give away like a quarter of his net worth a few years ago?

Something like 20 billion dollars.


Edited by Baby_Hitler (07/27/03 10:10 PM)


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1754045 - 07/27/03 10:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

Didn't Gates give away like a quarter of his net worth a few years ago?

Something like 20 billion dollars.


Dunno if that was the exact amount, but yeah, it was a pretty hefty chunk of change.

Of course, it would have been far better if he had never made more than a few million tops and then retired. That way he wouldn't have taken any resources from people. The recipients of that 20 billion would never even have realized they had missed a windfall, right?

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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1754049 - 07/27/03 10:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

*snicker*


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1754057 - 07/27/03 10:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So you have no answers to my questions. *shrugs* Okay, then.




Even though I didn't address you specifically,I think I answered many of your questions in my other posts.I'm only one person for christ's sake. I have to approve posts in ODD and whatnot now-which I'm neglecting for a little while.

I didn't see a few answers to some of my questions either,you don't see me bitching.
Quote:

Who here has ever said Capitalism is perfect?




I never said you guys did. I just hate it when the "righties" on the board accuse the "lefties" of being unrealistic,when most of the vocal "lefties"
support a mixed system,which in my view is far more realistic than this laissez-faire stuff.

Quote:

Can you support this assertion through a line of reasoning, please?




Can you support your line of reasoning? I think it's pretty self evident that if the current resistricted form is changed to a laissez-faire system in a less than a few snail's pace (or even at all),the rich are just going to get richer,or even worse,the whole fucking economy would colapse.


Quote:

If they didn't earn the money, how did they get it? Steal it?




Legally-no.In my view-many of them might as well have.

Quote:

If he broke the law he of course should be tried and convicted.




I think he has,on a number of occasions (broken the law that is). I guess I just imagined the anti trust thing a few years ago.

Don't be naive.If you have that much many,politicians,or that ones that make laws,are bought and sold.

Quote:

Ah. I see your error. You are equating currency with wealth. You compound your error by equating resources with wealth. Neither is correct. A free market economy is not a zero sum game. Wealth is created through productive human effort.




Yes,productive human effort that actually creates something is "resources". If money doesn't stand for resources,then what the hell does it stand for?


Quote:

Incorrect. What did Bill Gates take from other people? The opportunity to develop and sell a computer operating system? The chance to write a killer spreadsheet program or word-processing program? Or do you mean that he is taking (rather than buying) wood pulp resources from someone by printing too many "Microsoft Office" manuals?





See above.


Quote:

Further, the point of Capitalism is not to allow the cream to rise to the top, but to allow people the freedom to live as they choose as long as they don't fuck with anyone else.




I think people would lose many rights if completely unrestricted capitalism was implimented.
I thought that the biggest capitalist arguement was that it creates commpetition and that the consumer benefits this way.
If libertarianist Laissez-faire was implimented,there would be unprecedented monopolies.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: monoamine]
    #1754095 - 07/27/03 10:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Some actions create wealth, some destroy it.

you can take a little petroleum, and a few miligrams of metals and make a plastic disc with a thin metal film on it. On that disc you can put Windows XP, a college course in algebra, instructions on how to grow psilocybe mushrooms, or a whole lotta farting noises, each uses the same resources.

You can destroy good farming land for a few ounces of diamonds which have monetary value, but no real value. They are just useless shiny rocks, and destroy more wealth than they create.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1754105 - 07/27/03 10:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually diamonds have many industrial uses.

And the diamond industry keeps many employed.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1754114 - 07/27/03 10:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

^^^ a capitalist stands up for a monopolized industry.

happens more and more these days


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: monoamine]
    #1754121 - 07/27/03 10:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

grandmasterfat writes:

I have to approve posts in ODD and whatnot now-which I'm neglecting for a little while.

No problem. Take your time.

I didn't see a few answers to some of my questions either,you don't see me bitching.

Who's bitching? Just observing. Which question of yours have I failed to answer, by the way? I am usually pretty good at answering all direct questions asked of me.

I just hate it when the "righties" on the board accuse the "lefties" of being unrealistic,when most of the vocal "lefties" support a mixed system,which in my view is far more realistic than this laissez-faire stuff.

Interesting word, "realistic". If by realistic, you meant that "mixed system" economies can exist for long periods of time, who has ever said otherwise? Slave-based economies existed for long periods of time too. Totalitarian economies can limp along for decades as well -- see the USSR as the most famous example.

What I want to know is why you are convinced that giving people the freedom to live as they choose would result in an economic collapse. Take your time.

Can you support your line of reasoning?

Sure. I have done so dozens of times in previous threads. If you like, I can bump Trendal's thread titled "The United States is NOT Capitalist" one more time.

I think it's pretty self evident that if the current resistricted form is changed to a laissez-faire system in a less than a few snail's pace (or even at all),the rich are just going to get richer,or even worse,the whole fucking economy would colapse.

I don't think it is self-evident that the whole fucking economy would collapse, which is why I asked why YOU believe it will. As for the rich getting richer, what's wrong with that?

I think he has,on a number of occasions (broken the law that is). I guess I just imagined the anti trust thing a few years ago.

So he was taken to court, and the due process of law took place as it should. What's the problem?

Don't be naive.If you have that much many,politicians,or that ones that make laws,are bought and sold.

Let me get this straight. You are accusing the judges who heard the case of accepting a bribe to rule in his favor?

Yes,productive human effort that actually creates something is "resources".

Yes, it is. Which productive effort did Bill Gates take from whom?

If money doesn't stand for resources,then what the hell does it stand for?

Currency is a medium of exchange, nothing more. Money represents goods and services, both of which exist in ever-expanding quantities, not in fixed amounts. As I said, a free market economy is not a zero-sum game. It is not necessary to loot someone in order to gain more wealth.

See above

Uh, sorry, but "see above" does not address the question asked. Let me rephrase it slightly to clarify it -- How did Bill Gates's marketing of an operating system prevent others from doing the same? What resources did Gates "take" from anyone?

I think people would lose many rights if completely unrestricted capitalism was implimented.

Name a few for us, please. Take your time.

I thought that the biggest capitalist arguement was that it creates commpetition and that the consumer benefits this way.

Then you thought wrong. While it is true that the consumer benefits more under Capitalism than under any other system of which we are currently aware, that is just a side effect. The biggest argument for Laissez-faire Capitalism is that it is the only politico-economic system of which we are currently aware that fully recognizes the right of each peaceful person to live his life free from the interference of others.

If libertarianist Laissez-faire was implimented,there would be unprecedented monopolies.

This myth has been debunked thoroughly many times by many economists. In fact, monopolies cannot exist for any length of time without government interference.

pinky


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1754129 - 07/27/03 10:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Industrial quality diamonds aren't that rare, and aren't worth destroying valuable farmland to get at. Mining of Gem quality diamonds results in the impoverization of subsistance farmers who then have no choice but to work for the people who destroyed their way of life.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1754187 - 07/27/03 11:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Interesting word, "realistic". If by realistic, you meant that "mixed system" economies can exist for long periods of time, who has ever said otherwise? Slave-based economies existed for long periods of time too. Totalitarian economies can limp along for decades as well -- see the USSR as the most famous example.




That's not what I meant by realistic at all. I think pure capitalism is unrealistic like pure socialism is unrealistic.

Quote:

What I want to know is why you are convinced that giving people the freedom to live as they choose would result in an economic collapse. Take your time.




Well,not being able to put food on the table is a damper to individual rights.


Quote:

Sure. I have done so dozens of times in previous threads. If you like, I can bump Trendal's thread titled "The United States is NOT Capitalist" one more time.



I don't know how else to support my position.I'm not going to cite sources that you probably wouldn't agree with anyway.

Quote:

As for the rich getting richer, what's wrong with that?





It'll make the poor poorer.In my view, a lot of rich people don't deserve the money they have.


Quote:

So he was taken to court, and the due process of law took place as it should. What's the problem?




Due process never took place in my view. I don't think any anti trust laws have ever been properly implimented.

Quote:

Let me get this straight. You are accusing the judges who heard the case of accepting a bribe to rule in his favor?




I never said nor implied that. I meant less overt ways of buying the law.

Quote:

Yes, it is. Which productive effort did Bill Gates take from whom?





Billy is pretty well known for his ruthless business practices. There are many smaller firms that have made legit claims they he has illegally misled or flat out stolen ideas from.

Quote:

This myth has been debunked thoroughly many times by many economists.




Economics is not a hard science.
You act like there is a common concensus and that every economist agrees with each other.





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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1754190 - 07/27/03 11:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And the diamond industry keeps many employed.




Yeah,mainly through "slave labor".


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1754470 - 07/28/03 01:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, one certainly could. However the ONLY correct interpretation is that of the writers.

Then why do you always ignore what the second amendment actually says and try and pick nonsense from the "federalist papers"? Looking at what the amendment actually says is the only correct way of interpreting it.


What exactly is "a well regulated militia?"

A Militias in 1792 consisted of part-time citizen-soldiers organized by individual states. Its members were civilians who kept arms, ammunition and other military equipment in their houses and barns?there was no other way to muster a militia with sufficient speed. Over time, however, the state militias failed to develop as originally anticipated. States found it difficult to organize and finance their militias and, by the mid-1800s, they had effectively ceased to exist. Beginning in 1903, Congress began to pass legislation that would eventually transform state militias into what is now the National Guard. Today, the National Guard?and Army Reserve?are scarcely recognizable as descendants of militias of the 1790s. The National Guard and Reserve forces, in fact, do not permit personnel to store military weapons at home. And many of today?s weapons?tanks, armored personnel carriers, airplanes and the like?hardly lend themselves to use by individuals.

Q Does the Second Amendment in any way guarantee gun rights to individuals?

A No. The weight of historical and legal scholarship clearly shows that the Second Amendment was intended to guarantee that states could maintain armed forces to resist the federal government. Most scholars overwhelmingly concur that the Second Amendment was never intended to guarantee gun ownership rights for individual personal use. Small arms ownership was common when the Bill of Rights was adopted, with many people owning single-shot firearms for hunting in what was then an overwhelmingly rural nation.

http://www.aclu-mass.org/archives/2ndamend.html



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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1754514 - 07/28/03 02:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Fine, I believe welfare is a big mistake. I think it encourages laziness from those who collect it, bitterness from those who are forced to pay taxes for it, and it has led to a decline in the family as the benefits are higher for single parent families. There should be no welfare, social security, or medicare.

That's fine - that's your opinion and opinions are like assholes.

If the writers of the amendments did mean welfare then I take my hat off to them. They had the foresight to realise that without it slavery would rapidly be re-introduced and wages driven down for all. Nike didn't build their factories in south east asia because they WANTED to, they did it because they couldn't get away with paying 10 cents an hour in the US. Take away welfare and they'll be back in the US paying 10 cents.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1754681 - 07/28/03 04:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That's assuming you also take away Minimum wage.

Isn't having Both Minimum wage, and welfare kind of redundant?


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1754942 - 07/28/03 05:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
^^^ a capitalist stands up for a monopolized industry.

happens more and more these days



I'm sorry you're not aware of industrial uses for diamonds, but if you're capable of using a search engine, you'll have no trouble finding some.


--------------------
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: monoamine]
    #1754957 - 07/28/03 05:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

grandmasterfat said:
Quote:

And the diamond industry keeps many employed.




Yeah,mainly through "slave labor".



Really? The mine owners own their workers and force them to work?

Perhaps our definition of slave differs.


--------------------
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1754983 - 07/28/03 05:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't ignore it. What's being ignored, by you, is the words of those who wrote the document, the definition of the time for the word militia, and the fact that numerous court decisions have stated that the words "the people" mean the same thing in all of the first batch of amendments where that term appears. That it is a right of the PEOPLE

It's not to hard to see, unless you do not wish to.

Now for you to ignore all that because you don't like the amendment and the way it's written, means nothing.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1755129 - 07/28/03 06:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Looking at what the amendment actually says is the only correct way of interpreting it.





So then I guess you are one of those people who believe that flag burning is not protected by the first ammendment since it is not "speech".


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1755721 - 07/28/03 12:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Now for you to ignore all that because you don't like the amendment and the way it's written, means nothing.

On the contrary, I think it's a fine, well-written amendment that stands up to no end of misinterpretation by the likes of the NRA.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1755771 - 07/28/03 12:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Then it's a good thing that the majority of the government, the majority of the courts, the majority of legal scholars, those who actually wrote the bill of rights, and the majority of the citizens of the United States see it differently.

And without a pre-conceived notion, and with a willingness to both read and admit you're wrong, so would you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1755800 - 07/28/03 12:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

grandmasterfat said:
Quote:

And the diamond industry keeps many employed.




Yeah,mainly through "slave labor".



Really? The mine owners own their workers and force them to work?

Perhaps our definition of slave differs.



Where Diamonds Come From


--------------------


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1755819 - 07/28/03 12:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

While I admit to not reading the "further information" links on that page, perhaps you could show me where on that page the word slave or slavery appears?

Didn't think so.

I even did a search on it using the word force, as in forced or made to work.

Surprise, it's not there either.

You're still trying way too hard. At least make a decent attempt.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1755824 - 07/28/03 12:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Show me where I said they used slave labor. :smirk:


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1755835 - 07/28/03 01:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

no, seriously, luvdem, I thought that debeers owned all the diamond mines in the world in an attempt to keep their value artificially high.

am I wrong?

and, yes, I know they use the non-jewlry grade ones for drill bits and such.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1755836 - 07/28/03 01:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Show me where I said they used slave labor. :smirk: 




Did you say it directly? Nope.

You did however quote two posts where slave labor was the main point.

Either you have failed miserably in conversational skills, or you just don't care enough to follow along.

So, if your happy with your "where did I say it" response, good for you.

You'll need better abilities than that to get by in life.

Keep trying. You'll catch on.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1755843 - 07/28/03 01:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I was merely pointing out the human rights abuses that go on in the diamond industry. It may not be slave labor, but it's not much better.


--------------------


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1755845 - 07/28/03 01:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
no, seriously, luvdem, I thought that debeers owned all the diamond mines in the world in an attempt to keep their value artificially high.



I'd be very surprised if it was ALL the mines.

Quote:

am I wrong?



I don't know. Can you show me they do actually own all the diamond mines in the world?

Quote:

and, yes, I know they use the non-jewlry grade ones for drill bits and such.



Good. Then you're a step ahead of a whole shitload of people.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1755850 - 07/28/03 01:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I was merely pointing out the human rights abuses that go on in the diamond industry. It may not be slave labor, but it's not much better.


If human rights abuses were the thrust of your post, why quote two posts talking about slave labor and then a link to a page with no mention of slave labor at all?

Weak. That's why I say you try too hard.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1755864 - 07/28/03 01:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I was pointing out to both of you--one saying that diamonds come from slave labor, while you stuck up for the diamond industry--the reality of the diamond trade.


--------------------


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1755867 - 07/28/03 01:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"I don't know. Can you show me they do actually own all the diamond mines in the world?"

well, I know this isn't a solid reference or anything, but my brother in law used to be a diamond retailer, and he said everything came from debeers unless it is illegally traded on the black market.

I also saw some shit on 20/20 where they went to the debeers headquarters which is underneath some european city, and there is supposedly enough diamonds sitting in their vaults that if they circulated all of them, the value of diamonds would go through the floor.

there was also a special on PBS about the african black market for diamonds and it showed young africans risking their lives in dangerous mines and underwater digging where a high % of them drowned. it also showed gang warfare over territrory and business transactions involving diamonds...

and all so some american bitch can feel special on her wedding day..


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1755876 - 07/28/03 01:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Good for you. I'm pointing out to you that the quotes were then not only un-necessary, but disingenuous.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1755897 - 07/28/03 01:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'd also like to point out that some of the terror tactics used by the rebel groups mentioned in that link are somewhat similar to slavery.

This flash movie might explain it better.


--------------------


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1755899 - 07/28/03 01:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

well, I know this isn't a solid reference or anything, but my brother in law used to be a diamond retailer, and he said everything came from debeers unless it is illegally traded on the black market.




You're right. It's not even a remotely solid reference. I believe you'll find the Russians have a large number of diamond mines as well, not owned by DeBeers.


Quote:

I also saw some shit on 20/20 where they went to the debeers headquarters which is underneath some european city, and there is supposedly enough diamonds sitting in their vaults that if they circulated all of them, the value of diamonds would go through the floor.



I've seen that as well, and the Russians supposedly do the same.


Quote:

there was also a special on PBS about the african black market for diamonds and it showed young africans risking their lives in dangerous mines and underwater digging where a high % of them drowned. it also showed gang warfare over territrory and business transactions involving diamonds...


Seen it.


Quote:

and all so some american bitch can feel special on her wedding day..



Ah.... so ONLY American women wear diamonds? Funny but I could swear diamonds are valued in many parts of the world.

Your prejudice is showing.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1755903 - 07/28/03 01:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Similar does NOT equal the same as.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1755910 - 07/28/03 01:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So? At least it was relevant to the posts I was quoting.


--------------------


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1755929 - 07/28/03 01:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
So? At least it was relevant to the posts I was quoting.



Really? Well maybe to you. But not I would think to most.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1756186 - 07/28/03 02:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Then it's a good thing that the majority of the government, the majority of the courts, the majority of legal scholars, those who actually wrote the bill of rights, and the majority of the citizens of the United States see it differently.

Actually they don't. As the supreme court has made clear the second amendment applies to well-regulated militias only. Which is why the NRA are too frightened to bring a legal case on the basis of their interpretation of the second amendment. They know perfectly well they would lose.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1756266 - 07/28/03 03:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alpo, you know that's an out and out lie.
There has been one second amendment case that has reached the supreme court.

In it, US v. Miller, the court decided that sawed off shotguns are not covered by the second amendment as (in their view) that type of weapon had no use in the military. I pasted it before, I'd be glad to do so again.

Why you feel the need to be dishonest about such an easily checkable fact, amazes me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1756284 - 07/28/03 03:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Here it is for you yet another time.....





In United States v. Miller,\4\ the Court sustained a statute
requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of sawed-off shotguns. After reciting the original provisions of the Constitution
dealing with the militia, the Court observed that ``[w]ith obvious
purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness
of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment
were made. It must be interpreted with that end in view.''\5\ The
significance of the militia, the Court continued, was that it was
composed of ``civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.' ' It was upon
this force that the States could rely for defense and securing of the
laws, on a force that ``comprised all males physically capable of acting
in concert for the common defense,'' who, ``when called for service
. . . were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of
the kind in common use at the time.'
'\6\ Therefore, ``n the absence
of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a `shotgun
having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length' at this time has some
reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-
regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees
the right to keep and bear such an instrument.
Certainly it is not
within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary
military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common
defense.''\7\





So there you go Alpo, a ruling on both the second amendment, and on the composition of the militia.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1756308 - 07/28/03 03:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Im curious as to who believes welfare is "right"..


Is welfare right?
yes
no
depends...




Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1756309 - 07/28/03 03:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I still don't see how that proves your point.
It just reiterates what militias are composed of (citizens).
It could be interpreted as civilians owning guns,but only when taking part in a militia. It still isn't clear about the private use of guns in a non militia setting.
(Edit: I misread that, I meant the citing of the Constitution and Federalist papers,not the court ruling.)


--------------------
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Edited by grandmasterfat (07/28/03 03:33 PM)


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1756315 - 07/28/03 03:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Background:
The U.S. Supreme Court, and every federal appeals court in the country, except one, has consistently rejected the gun lobby's ill-founded attempt to read the militia clause out of the Second Amendment. As the Supreme Court concluded more than 60 years ago, in United States v. Miller (1939), the 'obvious purpose' of the Second Amendment was 'to assure the continuation of and render possible the effectiveness' of the state militia, and it 'must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.'

For decades, the NRA and others opposed to common-sense gun laws have waged a campaign of misinformation, claiming that their "individual rights" interpretation of the Second Amendment invalidates many gun control measures. In 1991, former Chief Justice Warren Burger called the gun lobby's deception "one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word 'fraud,' on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime."



A Sampling of Court Decisions that Support the Militia Interpretation of the Second Amendment

U.S. SUPREME COURT
U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55 (1980)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. COURTS OF APPEALS
U.S. v. Hinostroza, 297 F.3d 924 (9th Cir. 2002)
Silveira v. Lockyer, 312 F.3d 1052 (9th Cir. 2002)
U.S. v. Wright, 117 F.3d 1265 (11th Cir.), cert. denied, 522 U.S. 1007 (1997)
U.S. v. Baer, 235 F.2d 561 (10th Cir. 2000)
U.S. v. Oakes, 564 F.2d 384 (10th Cir. 1977), cert. denied, 435 U.S. 926 (1978)
U.S. v. Swinton, 521 F.2d 1255 (10th Cir. 1975), cert. denied, 424 U.S. 918 (1976)
U.S. v. Hancock, 231 F.3d 557 (9th Cir. 2000), cert. denied, 121 S. Ct. 1641 (2001)
U.S. v. Finitz, 234 F.3d 1278 (9th Cir. 2000), cert. denied, 121 S. Ct. 833 (2001)
Hickman v. Block, 81 F.3d 98 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 519 U.S. 912 (1996)
U.S. v. Lewis,, 236 F.3d 948 (8th Cir. 2001)
U.S . Farrell, 69 F.3d 891 (8th Cir. 1995)
U.S. v. Hale, 978 F.2d 1016 (8th Cir. 1992), cert. denied, 507 U.S. 997 (1993)
U.S. v. Nelsen, 859 F.2d 1318 (8th Cir. 1988)
Cody v. U.S., 460 F.2d 34 (8th Cir.), cert. denied, 409 U.S. 1010 (1972)
U.S. v. Decker, 446 F.2d 164 (8th Cir. 1971)
U.S. v. Synnes, 438 F.2d 764 (8th Cir. 1971), vacated on other grounds, 404 U.S. 1009 (1972)
Gillespie v. City of Indianapolis, 185 F.3d 693 (7th Cir. 1999), cert. denied, 528 U.S. 1116 (2000)
Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove, 695 F.2d 261 (7th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 863 (1983)
U.S. v. McCutcheon, 446 F.2d 133 (7th Cir. 1971)
U.S. v. Napier, 233 F.3d 394 (6th Cir. 2000)
U.S. v. Warin, 530 F.2d 103 (6th Cir.), cert. denied, 426 U.S. 948 (1976)
U.S. v. Day, 476 F.2d 562 (6th Cir. 1973)
Stevens v. U.S., 440 F.2d 144 (6th Cir. 1971)
U.S. v. Johnson, Jr., 441 F.2d 1134 (5th Cir. 1971)
Love v. Pepersack, 47 F.3d 120 (4th Cir.), cert. denied, 516 U.S. 813 (1995)
U.S. v. Johnson, 497 F.2d 548 (4th Cir. 1974)
U.S. v. Rybar, 103 F.3d 273 (3rd Cir. 1996), cert. denied, 522 U.S. 807 (1997)
U.S. v. Graves, 554 F.2d 65 (3rd Cir. 1977)
Eckert v. City of Philadelphia, 477 F.2d 610 (3rd Cir.), cert. denied, 414 U.S. 839 (1973)
U.S. v. Tot, 131 F.2d 261 (3rd Cir. 1942), rev'd on other grounds, 319 U.S. 463 (1943)
U.S. v. Toner, 728 F.2d 115 (2d Cir. 1984)
U.S. v. Friel, 1 F.3d 1231 (1st Cir. 1993)
Thomas v. City Council of Portland, 730 F.2d 41 (1st Cir. 1984)
U.S. v. Cases, 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942), cert. denied sub nom.
Velazquez v. U.S., 319 U.S. 770 (1943)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. FEDERAL DISTRICT COURTS
Golt v. City of Signal Hill, 132 F. Supp. 2d 1271 (C.D. Cal. 2001)
Olympic Arms v. Magaw, 91 F. Supp. 2d 1061 (E.D. Mich. 2000)
U.S. v. Willbern, 2000 WL 554134 (D. Kan. Apr. 12, 2000)
U.S. v. Bournes, 105 F. Supp. 2d 736 (E.D. Mich. 2000)
U.S. v. Boyd, 52 F. Supp. 2d 1233 (D. Kan. 1999), aff'd, 211 F.3d 1279 (10th Cir. 2000)
U.S. v. Henson, 55 F. Supp. 2d 528 (S.D. W. Va. 1999)
U.S. v. Visnich, 65 F. Supp. 2d 669 (N.D. Ohio 1999)
U.S. v. Caron, 941 F. Supp. 238 (D. Mass. 1996)
Moscowitz v. Brown, 850 F.Supp. 1185 (S.D.N.Y. 1994)
U.S. v. Kruckel, 1993 WL 765648 (D.N.J. Aug. 13, 1993)
Krisko v. Oswald, 655 F. Supp. 147 (E.D. Pa. 1987)
U.S. v. Kozerski, 518 F.Supp. 1082 (D.N.H. 1981), cert. denied, 496 U.S. 842 (1984)
Vietmanese Fishermen's Association v. KKK, 543 F.Supp. 198 (S.D. Tex. 1982)
Thompson v. Dereta, 549 F.Supp. 297 (D. Utah 1982)
U.S. v. Kraase, 340 F.Supp. 147 (E.D. Wis. 1972)
U.S. v. Gross, 313 F.Supp. 1330. (S.D. Ind. 1970), aff'd on other grounds, 451 F.2d 1355 (7th Cir. 1971)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

STATE COURTS
Arnold v. Cleveland, 616 N.E.2d 163 (Ohio 1993)
State v. Fennell, 382 S.E.2d 231 (N.C. 1989)
U.S. v. Sandidge, 520 A.2d 1057 (D.C.), cert. denied, 108 S.Ct. 193 (1987)
Kalodimos v. Village of Morton Grove, 470 N.E.2d 266 (Ill. 1984)
Masters v. State, 653 S.W.2d 944 (Tex.App. 1983)
City of East Cleveland v. Scales, 460 N.E.2d 1126 (Ohio App. 1983)
State v. Vlacil, 645 P.2d 677 (Utah 1982)
In Re Atkinson, 291 N.W.2d 396 (Minn. 1980)
State v. Rupp, 282 N.W.2d 125 (Iowa 1979)
Commonwealth v. Davis, 343 N.E.2d 847 (Mass. 1976)
Burton v. Sills, 248 A.2d 521 (N.J. 1968), appeal dismissed, 394 U.S. 812 (1969)
Harris v. State, 432 P.2d 929 (Nev. 1967)

http://www.gunlawsuits.org/features/press/related_docs/052301.asp


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: monoamine]
    #1756331 - 07/28/03 03:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You've got to be shitting me.

The arguement of some is that because of the word militia in the second amendment, there is no right for civilians to own weapons. According to the supreme court, civilians ARE the militia.






The
significance of the militia, the Court continued, was that it was
composed of ``civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.' ' It was upon
this force that the States could rely for defense and securing of the
laws, on a force that ``comprised all males physically capable of acting
in concert for the common defense,'' who, ``when called for service
. . . were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of
the kind in common use at the time.'





How can it be any plainer than that?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1756333 - 07/28/03 03:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Do you believe flag burning is "speech".


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1756354 - 07/28/03 03:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I never said civilians weren't the militia.



--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1757654 - 07/28/03 11:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

alex... do you really think that the founders thought it so important to clarify the right of the army to have weapons that they added a constitutional amendment about it?

do you really think the second amendment in the bill of RIGHTS refers to the right of soldiers to carry arms?

does that not seem absurd to you?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1758639 - 07/29/03 05:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alpo, I pasted the Supreme Courts decision. This is from the written decision in US v. Miller. Here it is yet again. Then tell me where in this, you see the Court saying the 2nd is not an individual right.....

The
significance of the militia, the Court continued, was that it was
composed of ``civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.' ' It was upon
this force that the States could rely for defense and securing of the
laws, on a force that ``comprised all males physically capable of acting
in concert for the common defense,'' who, ``when called for service
. . . were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of
the kind in common use at the time.''

So while I can say you know how to use the cut and paste feature, I can say with equal confidence that you don't seem to do as well with reading.

If you wish to play the cut and paste from an anti-gun website, we can all resort to posting a whole bunch of cases like you just did. It's what's inside them that counts.

When you start off the list with one so obviously false, and then follow it up with a list filled with who knows what, and who knows what the final outcomes of the appeals are, you've only wasted space.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: ]
    #1758726 - 07/29/03 06:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

do you really think that the founders thought it so important to clarify the right of the army to have weapons that they added a constitutional amendment about it?

Stop being logical, dammit!

pinky


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1758739 - 07/29/03 07:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The constitution doesn't say the army can have bullets though.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: ]
    #1758775 - 07/29/03 07:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

lex... do you really think that the founders thought it so important to clarify the right of the army

Where does it say "army" in the second amendment?


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1758783 - 07/29/03 07:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alpo, I pasted the Supreme Courts decision

Let me post it:

A unanimous Court ruled that the Second Amendment must be interpreted as intending to guarantee the states' rights to maintain and train a militia. "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument," the Court said.

Explain how this gives the individual the right to own arms.

and then follow it up with a list filled with who knows what

They are a list of legal cases that reject the NRA's interpretation of the second amendment. Take heed of them.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1758838 - 07/29/03 07:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Surely Alpo, even you can see that only says that shotguns with less than an 18 barrel are not covered by the second amendment.


Quote:

Take heed of them


Don't need to. The supreme court has already spoken and says that civilians are the militia you speak of. And with the words the people appearing in the second, that covers the rest quite nicely.

They say so here....
The
significance of the militia, the Court continued, was that it was
composed of ``civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.' ' It was upon
this force that the States could rely for defense and securing of the
laws, on a force that ``comprised all males physically capable of acting
in concert for the common defense,'' who, ``when called for service
. . . were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of
the kind in common use at the time.''

So that quite nicely puts an end to your claim that the 2nd doesn't cover civilians.. The court and the 2nd both say it does.You claim it only applies to the militia, the court says the militia is civilians.

Now, you don't have to like it, you may wish it not to be, but sadly for you and the butt munching Brady bunch, the Supreme Court has stated that the militia is the civilians. You don't even have to take my word for it as it's easily verifiable.
The Supreme Court trumps your wishes and the Brady Bunch's wishes.
The only ones who can reverse that is the Court itself.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1759007 - 07/29/03 09:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Just as in 1937 the Supreme Court ruled in favor of social security progams, in which judge Cazzaro stated,

"There have been statesman in our history who have stood for other views. . .We will not resurrect the contest. It is now settled by decision. The conception of the spending power advocated by Hamilton . . .has prevailed over that of Madison."

If you don't know already know the main dispute between Hamilton and Madison was what the statement "provide for the general welfare" really meant. Hamilton had a much more broad intepretation, beleiving that the government could increase taxationg and spending as long as it improved the welfare of the people, wheras Madison was more restricted in his view. This monumental court case, at least in the judges veiw at the time, proves that "provides for the general welfare" is the welfare of the people.

I find it interesting that you argue, in the same thread, against the constitutionality of welfare, and for that for the right to bear arms. While with the right to bear arms arguement you are well grounded, citing many cases and quotes, your welfare arguement consists of this. "I believe in the tenth amendment." You sound almost like some religous zealot who refuses to look at any intepretation of the consitition besides your own.
The Supreme Court has upheld both the right to bear arms and the ability of the government to impose social progams for our country's general welfare. Until you can get them to reinterpret the statement "provide for the general welfare" or Alex changes the 2nd amendment, you both should quit whining.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DeepDish]
    #1759125 - 07/29/03 10:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'll have to read the decision in that case. I'm unaware of it so thanks for pointing it out. Do you by chance know the specific case? who v. who?

However, while you may turn out to be correct in your interpretation of "provide for the general welfare" (which obviously I disagree with), the welfare of the people is not the same as the "welfare payments to the people." And yet even should your interpretation there prove to be correct, how would that mesh with the tenth amendment? Bear in mind the Bill of Rights sets out allowable actions for the Federal government and the tenth......
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. ......
speciffically prohibits the Feds from doing anything not set forth in the constitution. Last I looked, there was no mention of welfare payments in the constitution or the BOR.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1760099 - 07/29/03 05:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

pinky:
You certainly are enamored of the phrase "feigned obtuseness", aren't you?

I used it especially for you.  :smirk:

Nice quotes--I don't know who you're quoting...yourself?  Whoever it was Carbonhoots was quoting is just a matter of curiosity--I appreciated the way he said something.

If you consider our recent discussion, you might recall that I was trying to talk about possible NON-GOVERNMENTAL checks-and-balances in trade.  For instance I wrote about the connection between the consumer and the production method, wondering if a sense of accountability in purchasing would be effective.  Of course, that might be as quixotic as wondering about global Capitalism.

You didn't quite understand my position, but oh well.  I don't want to pull this thread off topic.  This thread is about welfare...and diamonds...and the right to bear arms... 


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: hongomon]
    #1760680 - 07/29/03 09:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hongomon writes:

Nice quotes--I don't know who you're quoting...yourself?

Nope. Both are too concise to have been mine.

If you consider our recent discussion, you might recall that I was trying to talk about possible NON-GOVERNMENTAL checks-and-balances in trade.

As a Laissez-faire Capitalist, I have no objection to transactions carried out voluntarily.

For instance I wrote about the connection between the consumer and the production method, wondering if a sense of accountability in purchasing would be effective.

Depends which effect one wishes to accomplish, no?

This thread is about welfare...and diamonds...and the right to bear arms...

...and how with no poverty there would be no need for welfare... and if there were no excess labor pool leading potential employees to "underbid" each other there would be no poverty...

pinky


--------------------


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1761165 - 07/29/03 11:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

pinky:
Nope. Both are too concise to have been mine.

Damn. I should have figured that out.

As a Laissez-faire Capitalist, I have no objection to transactions carried out voluntarily.

I tried to find that book I mentioned with the profits vs. voluntarism pair of essays (M. Friedman vs. Christopher D. Stone). It raises the issue of ethics of voluntary transactions by people in a fiduciary position, where the owners aren't on the same moral page. No final words coming from hongomon, it was a very interesting debate, compelling from both sides.

But beyond that, the cynic in me wants a mechanism, wants "check-and-balance forces" to help those voluntary transactions be more consistent and equitable.

hongomon: For instance I wrote about the connection between the consumer and the production method, wondering if a sense of accountability in purchasing would be effective.

pinky: Depends which effect one wishes to accomplish, no?

Perhaps. If one's desired effect is the realization of the kingdom of God on earth, it may not pan out (knock on wood). But what do consumer groups generally push for? I've been drinking "fair trade" coffee for the last six months--my hope is that the extra I pay is a reflection of a lower-level income increase. The "Rugmark" consumerism activism has routed oriental rug sales toward rugmakers who have proven themselves to embrace fair and legal labor practices.

...and how with no poverty there would be no need for welfare... and if there were no excess labor pool leading potential employees to "underbid" each other there would be no poverty...

Are you about to explain how Capitalism has the excess labor problem figured out? I'm all ears. And please--NO UTOPIANISM!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: hongomon]
    #1762010 - 07/30/03 07:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hongomon writes:

But beyond that, the cynic in me wants a mechanism, wants "check-and-balance forces" to help those voluntary transactions be more consistent and equitable.

But it seems neither of us want that mechanism, those "check-and-balance forces", to be the State, right?

Are you about to explain how Capitalism has the excess labor problem figured out? I'm all ears.

I thought you were loathe to pull the thread further off-topic. If you wish to open a separate thread on the issue, I would be glad to comment on it.

pinky


--------------------


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1762378 - 07/30/03 12:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

pinky:
But it seems neither of us want that mechanism, those "check-and-balance forces", to be the State, right?

Right. Barring any viable alternatives, however, I am more inclined than you to seek that mechanism in the State.

Myself aside, people will always turn to government to solve their problems, so it just seems like it would be in any small-government philosophy's best interest to explore ways to prevent and mitigate those problems--ways that aren't themselves anathema to the philosophy.

But yeah, look what I've done, I've pulled the thread by its earlobe again. Of course, we could focus on the surplus labor issue in the sense that it would nip the need for welfare in the bud, and that would be somewhat on topic. (Am I stretching?)


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: hongomon]
    #1763118 - 07/30/03 04:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hongomon writes:

Barring any viable alternatives, however, I am more inclined than you to seek that mechanism in the State.

You are of course aware that in this context, the State is force.

Look, if it were just you who held that inclination, I wouldn't care. Unfortunately, lots of people feel the same way you do. And that's the problem with any democracy which doesn't have cast-in-stone regulations specifying what government is permitted to do and (much more importantly) must not under any circumstances be permitted to do.

I have noted here before several times that despite the undeniable genius of the Founding Fathers, not all of them were prescient. Because of this lack of ability to foretell the future with pinpoint accuracy, they allowed two fatal flaws to undermine their handiwork -- they gave the federal government the right to mint currency and the right to regulate interstate commerce. To be fair, no human being could possibly have foreseen the incredible twisting, stretching, distorting, and "square peg forced into a round hole"-ing that future politicians would abuse the interstate commerce clause with.

Far too many American politicians fall into the most dangerous trap in government service -- they start to think their wishes to make the country a "better place" supersede the principles under which their government is supposed to operate. The irony is that most of their constituents see nothing wrong with this. Although constituent Smith and constituent Jones may disagree on which "problem" is the most pressing, neither ever gives a thought to the fact that what they want the government to do is forbidden by its charter.

Myself aside, people will always turn to government to solve their problems...

See above. Nowhere in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence or the voluminous supporting commentary by the Founding Fathers (i.e. the Federalist Papers) will you find the words "solve" or "problem". The government of the United States was not created to solve problems. It was created to protect the rights of the individuals residing in the United States. Period.

...so it just seems like it would be in any small-government philosophy's best interest to explore ways to prevent and mitigate those problems--ways that aren't themselves anathema to the philosophy.

Those ways have been explored, in great detail. And the conclusion in each case boils down to the same thing -- if the problem is in fact a serious one, people of good will acting freely will sooner or later address it. As soon as you resort to the use of force to solve one "problem", there is quite literally no defensible way to argue that the use of force should not be applied to ALL "problems". To their credit, the Founding Fathers understood this. Too bad so many Americans alive today don't.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: hongomon]
    #1763126 - 07/30/03 05:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hongomon writes:

But yeah, look what I've done, I've pulled the thread by its earlobe again. Of course, we could focus on the surplus labor issue in the sense that it would nip the need for welfare in the bud, and that would be somewhat on topic. (Am I stretching?)

In my opinion, yeah, it is a stretch. Why not open a separate thread on the topic? It's just as easy to hit the "new post" button as it is to hit the "reply" button.

pinky


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1763203 - 07/30/03 05:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I'll have to read the decision in that case. I'm unaware of it so thanks for pointing it out. Do you by chance know the specific case? who v. who?


Try this link. It does a good job explaining the debate on this issue, and the Supreme Court cases related to it. A lot of the same arguments we already made are covered in the link. As you know, the constitution gives the Supreme Court the final power to interpret the constitution, and the link shows they ruled in favor of welfare.

Note that I quoted Hamilton when I read the Federalist Papers (yes, very dry reading). But Madison had an opposing view, and the Supreme Court had to decide whose view to use:

"A Dispute Among the Founders-

The constitutional issue about the taxing power had deep roots running all the way back to the founders and to a dispute between Alexander Hamilton and James Madison. Although both Hamilton and Madison were Federalists who believed in a strong federal government, they disagreed over the interpretation of the Constitution's permission for the government to levy taxes and spend money to "provide for the general welfare." Hamilton thought this meant that government could levy new taxes and undertake new spending if doing so improved the general welfare in a broad sense. Madison thought the federal government could only expend money for purposes specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

The Madisonian view, also shared by Thomas Jefferson, came in time to be known as the strict construction doctrine while the Hamiltonian view is called the doctrine of implied powers.

The balance between these two philosophies went one way and then the other over the years, with Hamilton's view tending to prevail over the long run, but it was always possible that in uncharted waters the courts might retreat to a Madisonian conservatism, and the Supreme Court of the early New Deal era was highly conservative in outlook."

Nevertheless, the Hamiltonian interpretation still won out.


--------------------


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DeepDish]
    #1763213 - 07/30/03 05:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

By the way, excellent post DeepDish!!!  :thumbup: :laugh: 


--------------------


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1763436 - 07/30/03 06:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well shit. I guess when I bitch about SS, I'll have to say it's unconstitutional IN MY OPINION.

Since no-one has come up with the same type of link for welfare, I'll stick with the unconstitutional slant. (you didn't think I'd give up that easy did you?  :lol: )

Considering the times when this decision was made I guess that even though I think it was the wrong decision, it at least is semi-understandable.

Time for many more letters to my reps.

While you guys came through with the proof, I still don't have to like it.

Kudo's to you both.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1763529 - 07/30/03 06:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Well shit. I guess when I bitch about SS, I'll have to say it's unconstitutional IN MY OPINION.

While you guys came through with the proof, I still don't have to like it.

Kudo's to you both.


Wow, that's a very uncharacteristic response for you lds. I'm impressed!


--------------------


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1763557 - 07/30/03 07:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Wow, that's a very uncharacteristic response for you lds. I'm impressed! 



When someone can demonstrate to me to MY satisfaction that I was  wr....  wr.... wr.... incorrect, I can admit it.

You and deepdish came through with the facts and you backed them up with the link.

And while I disagree with the courts decision, there was indeed a decision.

Anyway, it's a good thing this doesn't happen often!  :wink:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1763572 - 07/30/03 07:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I was wr.... wr.... wr....




Way to go, Fonzie.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: wingnutx]
    #1763579 - 07/30/03 07:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
Quote:

I was wr.... wr.... wr....




Way to go, Fonzie.



I've never watched that show. I take it I inadvertently used his line?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1763591 - 07/30/03 07:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, he can't say he was wrong. You got him almost verbatim, if I remember correctly after 20 years.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: wingnutx]
    #1763598 - 07/30/03 07:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I can say it, and have done so on this site.... but what fun would that be?

I make it a habit to never watch a show with either Winkler or Opie in it. There's just something about those two.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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