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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753311 - 07/27/03 05:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nope, the language of the day included the word civilians. If they had meant civilians they would have said civilians. They're was certainly no need to include "well-regulated militia".

What "well-regulated militia" do you belong to?


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753323 - 07/27/03 05:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Not even a good try Alpo.

The word people is included. The definition of the word people hasn't changed at all.

The definition of the word militia, while it has evolved to include our current understanding of the word, has always included civilians / citizens.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineyelimS
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753337 - 07/27/03 05:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"And who are you to say that having a social welfare program isn't in the best interest of the United States.

I'm someone who believes we should follow the 10th amendment.
General welfare = well being of the country. If they had meant the people, they would have said the people. After all it's not as if they didn't use those words when that was what they meant."

Seriously? Are you trying to say that you don't want what's best for the people? That you prefer strictly following an amendment to making sure as many people as possible has it as good as possible? Remember, the amendments were written by human beings and is not neccesarily perfect. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753343 - 07/27/03 05:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe welfare is good for the country or the people. (other than those it allows to sponge off of others)

Yes, the amendments should be strictly followed. That's why they were written.

Fight to add a welfare amendment if you wish.

I'll be fighting against it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineyelimS
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753349 - 07/27/03 05:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

if they ment civilians, why did they write well-regulated militia?

why does it seem to me that you are more concerned with your right to bear arms, than the general welfare of other people? and what more proof do you need to approve welfare than the simple fact that countries with good welfare systems have a lower crimerate, and are generally better to live in?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753354 - 07/27/03 05:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Because the militia of the day was, was in their words, every able bodied male.


Quote:

why does it seem to me that you are more concerned with your right to bear arms, than the general welfare of other people?



One is constitutional, one is not.

I'm concerned with the constitution. If you want to help others, donate to charities. The federal government does NOT have the lawful ability to steal from me and give to those who have not earned it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineyelimS
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753356 - 07/27/03 05:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"General welfare = well being of the country. If they had meant the people, they would have said the people"
Explain what "the country" is, and why it is more important than the people.
Also, explain why they write exactly what they mean some places, and "well-regulated militia" elsewhere when they don't care about regulation at all and hand out guns to nearly everyone who wants them.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753361 - 07/27/03 05:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The words of the writers of the constitution have been pasted in this thread. Read them.

The term well regulated militia is exactly what they meant to say as in their day, a militia was evey able bodied male. It's not my fault you either can't or won't read what the wrote. It's been pasted.

Where did you get the idea the government hands out guns to anyone?

I had to work for the money to buy mine.

Perhaps you can tell me where the line for free guns begins?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753383 - 07/27/03 05:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yelimS asks:

if they ment civilians, why did they write well-regulated militia?

They talked funny back then. In the popular use of the terms at the time, "well regulated" did not mean official, organized or supervised at all. It simply meant a militia that could do its job well. A well regulated watch kept good time, a well regulated oven held an even temperature, a well regulated rifle was accurate, and a well regulated militia fought well.

The militia was every able-bodied man, not a specific group like the National Guard. It is the reason for the Second Amendment protecting the individual's right to keep and bear arms, not a requirement. You still have that right even when there is no active militia formed. Just as you have the right to freedom of speech even if you don't own a paper, magazine, radio or TV station, are not a reporter or publisher, heck, even if you can't talk.

Back to the grammatical structure of the amendment:

It reads "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Some misinterpret this to mean that only the well-regulated militia, that is, something like the National Guard, has the right to keep and bear arms. Why, it says it right there in the Amendment! Grammatically, it says no such thing; it is an explanatory clause, not a restrictive one. Which part of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" do you find unclear?

Let's construct a parallel sentence with exactly the same construction but on a less emotionally-charged subject:

"A well-crafted pepperoni pizza, being necessary to the preservation of a diverse menu, the right of the people to keep and cook tomatoes, shall not be infringed."

Try to argue that this statement says that only pepperoni pizzas can keep and cook tomatoes, and only well-crafted ones at that.

pinky



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OfflineyelimS
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753397 - 07/27/03 05:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I knew you'd think i ment they handed out guns for free. I'm sorry, I was too lazy to write that I think it's far too easy to get guns in the US. You don't even have to be an able bodied male, you can even be legally insane, isn't that correct?
However, what I think is worst isn't your gun ideas, it's that you prefer a law to the actual well-being of the people, like the law were words from the Gods.
And please explain why the country is more important than the people, and what the difference is.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753403 - 07/27/03 05:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I knew you'd think i ment they handed out guns for free. I'm sorry, I was too lazy to write that I think it's far too easy to get guns in the US. You don't even have to be an able bodied male, you can even be legally insane, isn't that correct?



There are criminal record & mental health checks.


Quote:

However, what I think is worst isn't your gun ideas, it's that you prefer a law to the actual well-being of the people, like the law were words from the Gods.



The amendments are not "laws", they are the words which control the laws.


Quote:

And please explain why the country is more important than the people, and what the difference is.



As I said before, read the quotes from the writers.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineyelimS
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753450 - 07/27/03 05:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

sorry im to lazy to use quote, but it's getting late
"There are criminal record & mental health checks. "
still too easy. do you disagree that many people who shouldn't have had guns have them anyway?

"The amendments are not "laws", they are the words which control the laws."
I know that, and you know what I meant.

Well, it seems we're debating two different things here. You're debating that welfare is unconstitutional, and I don't care one bit for your constitution, A: because I have different constitution, and B: because a constitution can never be perfect because it is written by humans, and thus we should use it as guidelines, but not limit ourselves to what they say. I care for the general well-being of the people, and if the constitution says my means are illegal, then they'll just have to be, but I'll keep defending them.

Pinksharkmark: I'll accept your explanation, but I still think something should be done to improve gun control.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753465 - 07/27/03 06:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

still too easy. do you disagree that many people who shouldn't have had guns have them anyway?



Yes I disagree. Somewhat less than 3% of leagally owned weapons are ever used in the comission of a crime.


Quote:

I don't care one bit for your constitution



What a horrible tragedy!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineyelimS
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753485 - 07/27/03 06:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Somewhat less than 3% of leagally owned weapons are ever used in the comission of a crime."
Too much.

"What a horrible tragedy!"
I don't know what to make of this. Are you being sarcastic or can't you think of anything to say?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753506 - 07/27/03 06:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Too much.



Your opinion. It's much less than in some countries. Look it up if you care to.


Quote:

Are you being sarcastic



Yes I am. The opinion of someone not from this country, as regards to our constitution, matters not at all to me.

Just as I'm fairly sure, my opinion of Norway, if that is where you're from, matters little to you.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineyelimS
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753522 - 07/27/03 06:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, I'd be just as interrested to hear what you have to say about our politics as what you have to say about any politics. It's still politics, and I want to debate the idea of welfare, not whether or not it's constitutional, as that's just a topic for americans, but the idea of welfare is a topic for anyone.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753554 - 07/27/03 06:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Fine, I believe welfare is a big mistake. I think it encourages laziness from those who collect it, bitterness from those who are forced to pay taxes for it, and it has led to a decline in the family as the benefits are higher for single parent families. There should be no welfare, social security, or medicare.

Now, I hope it works better in your country than it does here, because here it sucks.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineyelimS
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753673 - 07/27/03 07:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it does and i suggest you look at examples from other countries before you dismiss it.


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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: yelimS]
    #1753680 - 07/27/03 07:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I said I hope it works better, not if it does it's a good idea.

There should be no welfare under any circumstances.

Private charities, fine. Welfare, no.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753764 - 07/27/03 08:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If they meant every able bodied male,then why do females own guns? :grin: If your wife has a gun,Luv,I'm notifying the authorities.


One could interpret "well-regulated militia" a million different ways.

Take the constition for what it is-an aged document that was probably written vaguely on purpose that can be interpreted in many different ways (funny how it seems that people are always bending it to further their own agendas).
I don't remember reading "this doesn't apply to people of color,the poor,or women" in the constitution either,but that's how our founding fathers applied it at the time.So you can cite the Federalist papers and all that jazz all you want,but our founding father's seemed pretty damn hypocritical and contridictory by their actions.

Totally unrestricted capitalism with no socialist support would mean the downfall of civilization,in my view.

Do you really think Billy Gates "earned" that couple billion or so he has? I'm sorry,but no one is that important.No one deservers that much money.No single person can possibly contribute that much to society. But that's the way capatalism works. The people at the bottom do most of the work,and the people at the top  bend the laws in their favor,don't produce a damn thing in most cases,and make all the money. It's also funny how corporations are treated like individuals under the law,but the law says otherwise. When's the last time someone's had their corporate charter revoked? 


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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