Home | Community | Message Board


Vaposhop
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency
    #3454022 - 12/06/04 12:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

shouldn't they be principally opposed to most forms of charity?


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454129 - 12/06/04 12:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Personally, I believe that welfare type programs should be left to the states, communities, churches, and the like. The US federal government has no right, legally or otherwise, to play Robin Hood and take my hard earned money and give it to some lazy slob that would rather have babies than work for a living. The entire concept of welfare is flawed.

I do realize that life deals people a rotten hand from time to time. It is these cases that I like to see the local communities, churches, and businesses offer a helping hand. The places that help out should get some kind of tax break from the Fed as an incentive/reward for their actions. (I also don't think churchs should be tax exempt just because they are a church, but that is another thread...)

So no, I am not opposed to most forms of charity... I am only really opposed to government charity backed by tax dollars.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Seuss]
    #3454151 - 12/06/04 12:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It is these cases that I like to see the local communities, churches, and businesses offer a helping hand.

We had this system for a hundred years before welfare. It didn't work. The suffering people went through was incredible. That's why welfare was introduced.

Read Dickens for an insight into what kind of society was produced pre-welfare.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Xlea321]
    #3454236 - 12/06/04 01:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> We had this system for a hundred years before welfare. It didn't work.

... and our current method of taking from those with money and giving to those without is a steller example of a working welfare system?

> The suffering people went through was incredible. That's why welfare was introduced.

I always thought the current welfare system was started to help the nation through the great depression and had little to do with actual people or suffering.

> Read Dickens for an insight into what kind of society was produced pre-welfare.

Read George Orwell for an insight into what kind of society was produced post-welfare.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454241 - 12/06/04 01:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)


shouldn't they be principally opposed to most forms of charity?

People choose of their own free will to give to charities. People have no choice when it comes to paying taxes. In my opinion, people should be able to do whatever they want with their own money(if that means giving it all away...then fine), but people should not have a large part of their income taken away by force to support a behemoth of a government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAaronEvil
The GuitarVillain
Male

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1,706
Loc: California
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Seuss]
    #3454275 - 12/06/04 01:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Personally, I believe that welfare type programs should be left to the states, communities, churches, and the like.  The US federal government has no right, legally or otherwise, to play Robin Hood and take my hard earned money and give it to some lazy slob that would rather have babies than work for a living.  The entire concept of welfare is flawed.

I do realize that life deals people a rotten hand from time to time. It is these cases that I like to see the local communities, churches, and businesses offer a helping hand.  The places that help out should get some kind of tax break from the Fed as an incentive/reward for their actions.  (I also don't think churchs should be tax exempt just because they are a church, but that is another thread...)

So no, I am not opposed to most forms of charity... I am only really opposed to government charity backed by tax dollars.




:thumbup:
Couldn't have said it better myself.


--------------------


There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3454291 - 12/06/04 01:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yes, thats the argument based on principle. im referring to the practical argument that many if not most conservatives make--that handouts lead to dependency.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Xlea321]
    #3454319 - 12/06/04 01:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)


Read Dickens for an insight into what kind of society was produced pre-welfare.

I think that the hardship that Dickens detailed was more because of the upheaval of the Industrial Revolution. You had an entire society(and world) that used to be agricultural in nature and was all of a sudden being more focused on manufacturing and industrial production. As technology improved and production improved, the overall standard of living increased. People used to live out in shacks in the woods. Now even poor people in industrialized nations have roofs over their heads, food in their stomachs, and televisions sets to watch. That painful transition from low-tech society to high-tech society isn't without trial.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454351 - 12/06/04 01:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)


that handouts lead to dependency.

That definately can and does happen(I have first hand experience in seeing it happen). Some people are deserving of help, i.e. they are down on their luck and are striving to become self-sufficient. Others are just plain scumbags who suck every away every penny they can and try to work as little as possible.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454447 - 12/06/04 01:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I can't speak for all libertarians or conservatives, but my basis for opposing welfare is not related to dependency. It is based on the fact that it is money taken by force and redistributed to others who have done nothing to earn it. I'm all for any voluntary actions which don't harm others. Also, I'd like to point out that charity generally operates as a sort of relief fund for emergency situations. It does not tend to lead to the culture of dependency that welfare has produced. You read my thread about the Grameen Bank. This is the kind of "charity" I'd like to see become more common. Rather than giving handouts, it instead helps people help themselves. The problem for poor people trying to start up a business is that they can't get a loan to get started. If we have more microcredit agencies like teh Grameen Bank, we could help solve this injustice.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3454545 - 12/06/04 02:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> but people should not have a large part of their income taken away by force to support a behemoth of a government

I don't mind the government taking a large chunk of my income, but I wan't equal representation of my money... in other words, I want it going towards stuff that benefits everybody, not just lazy people that don't feel like working.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454642 - 12/06/04 02:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

In the course of writing my term paper for Sociology of Religion, I came across a theory that is possibly the best argument in favor of welfare that I've ever heard. My paper was on the paths of religious development that the United States has taken on the one hand, and that Europe has taken on the other. In other words, I was trying to find why Europe has become more secular while the US has become more religous, and one theory proposes that it has to do with the welfare state. It basically says that in the absense of government welfare, churches tend to provide for the poor instead, and that with the rise of the welfare state, those churches become increasingly irrelevant in society. Basically, this theory says that Americans are more religious because of the important role religion continues to play in helping the needy, whereas in Europe, the government has completely taken over that job, and thus made religion obsolete. Of course, in its place, we see a sort of state religion which worships the Nanny State?, which I find about equally appalling.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454720 - 12/06/04 02:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know what welfare leads to, but I can definitely say that LACK of welfare leads to an increase in crime.

A lot of idealistic conservatives don't tend to face the grim meathook reality of the fact that if poor people are allowed to be poor, eventually they will start robbing and murdering rich people. Its as simple as that.

So: you don't think that the state has a moral right to take from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. I hope you like dodging bullets.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3454731 - 12/06/04 02:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I don't know what welfare leads to, but I can definitely say that LACK of welfare leads to an increase in crime.



If we're talking about all forms of welfare, I agree. But just be aware that government welfare isn't the only kind.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3455106 - 12/06/04 04:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I don't know what welfare leads to, but I can definitely say that LACK of welfare leads to an increase in crime.

A lot of idealistic conservatives don't tend to face the grim meathook reality of the fact that if poor people are allowed to be poor, eventually they will start robbing and murdering rich people. Its as simple as that.

So: you don't think that the state has a moral right to take from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. I hope you like dodging bullets.




theres also the issue that welfare establishes a true minimum wage..since no employer can pay less per month or per year than welfare..unlike the hourly minimum wage that still allows them to reduce hours...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3455262 - 12/06/04 05:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)


So: you don't think that the state has a moral right to take from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. I hope you like dodging bullets.

It's more cost effective to pay for police and prisons.

:lol:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3455863 - 12/06/04 07:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Tao,

I talked to a conservative uncle about this one time.
Yeah, he believed that government welfare leads to dependency. But he did give a bit of money to various charity (a lot of it was for environmental conservation, but I assume that's not what we're talking about). He would give money for inner city youth programs and money towards getting better computers and supplies for struggling schools, etc. I think that by doing that, he felt he was helping out, but not causing any direct kind of dependency.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Gijith]
    #3455922 - 12/06/04 07:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The dependancy comes about when the recipient believes that he is entitled to the assistance. If he realizes that it comes from the freely given good wishes of others who see him as temporarily down but willing to get himself back up if he can, then he will try to get himself back up. If not he will just keep sitting around bitching about how little he is getting and why we should give him more.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDirtMcgirt
in a pinch
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456040 - 12/06/04 07:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

To think abolishing welfare will allow for charities to help out the poor is ludicris. It doesn't happen. Sure a church may set up a soup kitchen or homeless shelter but they don't exactly do much more. Sure, there is all sorts of wonderful little stories about charities but this hardly accounts for the poor of this country. If you abolish welfare your ass is gettin' robbed, period. I point to some graf half a block away from my place: "Eat The Rich!" Welfare should be left up to the states as to allow innovation of this tricky problem. Texas can abolish the whole thing and become a sunny day in Bahgdad for all I care. Welfare should be designed to set up employment (in gov construction works etc. instead of giving these jobs to landowner's/politician's buddies as here in LA) Not to give handouts. The problem is the way our welfare system is set up, not welfare itself.

You don't like getting money taken from you? How is it more cost effective to hire bodyguards so your children don't get kidnapped(like in mexico) or living 10 miles away from any neighbors. Welfare is a public service that serves everybody just like the road you drive on.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3456128 - 12/06/04 07:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Churches and religious orders provided social services for centuries before state welfare existed. Several Catholic monastic orders were founded solely on the basis of serving the poor. Religion has historically thrived on assistance to the poor, which may explain why poor people generally tend to be more religious. Your assertion that abolishing welfare would result in me getting robbed is based in ignorance. Welfare IS robbery, albeit state-sanctioned robbery. Fact is that there are several countries much poorer than the US which also have much lower crime rates.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Welfare to Workfare
( 1 2 3 all )
lysergic 2,422 58 10/21/03 01:07 PM
by Rono
* State-Run Welfare and Libertarianism retread 571 4 10/22/04 07:27 PM
by Ancalagon
* A few "welfare" myths
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
Xlea321 8,264 177 07/30/03 07:19 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Libertarians?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Libertine 11,150 156 08/17/08 07:28 PM
by ScavengerType
* Libertarians are full of shit iglou 1,389 16 03/16/02 03:36 AM
by Agent Cooper
* the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Annapurna1
7,335 147 04/19/07 09:50 AM
by Phred
* New Orleans And Welfare
( 1 2 3 all )
luvdemshrooms 2,358 55 09/04/05 07:41 PM
by Smallworlds
* other boards?
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )
Anonymous 8,112 199 05/28/04 04:38 AM
by GazzBut

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil
2,629 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Kraken Kratom
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.035 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 18 queries.