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OfflineTao
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If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency
    #3454022 - 12/06/04 12:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

shouldn't they be principally opposed to most forms of charity?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454129 - 12/06/04 12:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Personally, I believe that welfare type programs should be left to the states, communities, churches, and the like. The US federal government has no right, legally or otherwise, to play Robin Hood and take my hard earned money and give it to some lazy slob that would rather have babies than work for a living. The entire concept of welfare is flawed.

I do realize that life deals people a rotten hand from time to time. It is these cases that I like to see the local communities, churches, and businesses offer a helping hand. The places that help out should get some kind of tax break from the Fed as an incentive/reward for their actions. (I also don't think churchs should be tax exempt just because they are a church, but that is another thread...)

So no, I am not opposed to most forms of charity... I am only really opposed to government charity backed by tax dollars.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Seuss]
    #3454151 - 12/06/04 12:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It is these cases that I like to see the local communities, churches, and businesses offer a helping hand.

We had this system for a hundred years before welfare. It didn't work. The suffering people went through was incredible. That's why welfare was introduced.

Read Dickens for an insight into what kind of society was produced pre-welfare.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Xlea321]
    #3454236 - 12/06/04 01:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> We had this system for a hundred years before welfare. It didn't work.

... and our current method of taking from those with money and giving to those without is a steller example of a working welfare system?

> The suffering people went through was incredible. That's why welfare was introduced.

I always thought the current welfare system was started to help the nation through the great depression and had little to do with actual people or suffering.

> Read Dickens for an insight into what kind of society was produced pre-welfare.

Read George Orwell for an insight into what kind of society was produced post-welfare.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454241 - 12/06/04 01:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


shouldn't they be principally opposed to most forms of charity?

People choose of their own free will to give to charities. People have no choice when it comes to paying taxes. In my opinion, people should be able to do whatever they want with their own money(if that means giving it all away...then fine), but people should not have a large part of their income taken away by force to support a behemoth of a government.


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Seuss]
    #3454275 - 12/06/04 01:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Personally, I believe that welfare type programs should be left to the states, communities, churches, and the like.  The US federal government has no right, legally or otherwise, to play Robin Hood and take my hard earned money and give it to some lazy slob that would rather have babies than work for a living.  The entire concept of welfare is flawed.

I do realize that life deals people a rotten hand from time to time. It is these cases that I like to see the local communities, churches, and businesses offer a helping hand.  The places that help out should get some kind of tax break from the Fed as an incentive/reward for their actions.  (I also don't think churchs should be tax exempt just because they are a church, but that is another thread...)

So no, I am not opposed to most forms of charity... I am only really opposed to government charity backed by tax dollars.




:thumbup:
Couldn't have said it better myself.


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OfflineTao
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3454291 - 12/06/04 01:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

yes, thats the argument based on principle. im referring to the practical argument that many if not most conservatives make--that handouts lead to dependency.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Xlea321]
    #3454319 - 12/06/04 01:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


Read Dickens for an insight into what kind of society was produced pre-welfare.

I think that the hardship that Dickens detailed was more because of the upheaval of the Industrial Revolution. You had an entire society(and world) that used to be agricultural in nature and was all of a sudden being more focused on manufacturing and industrial production. As technology improved and production improved, the overall standard of living increased. People used to live out in shacks in the woods. Now even poor people in industrialized nations have roofs over their heads, food in their stomachs, and televisions sets to watch. That painful transition from low-tech society to high-tech society isn't without trial.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454351 - 12/06/04 01:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


that handouts lead to dependency.

That definately can and does happen(I have first hand experience in seeing it happen). Some people are deserving of help, i.e. they are down on their luck and are striving to become self-sufficient. Others are just plain scumbags who suck every away every penny they can and try to work as little as possible.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454447 - 12/06/04 01:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I can't speak for all libertarians or conservatives, but my basis for opposing welfare is not related to dependency. It is based on the fact that it is money taken by force and redistributed to others who have done nothing to earn it. I'm all for any voluntary actions which don't harm others. Also, I'd like to point out that charity generally operates as a sort of relief fund for emergency situations. It does not tend to lead to the culture of dependency that welfare has produced. You read my thread about the Grameen Bank. This is the kind of "charity" I'd like to see become more common. Rather than giving handouts, it instead helps people help themselves. The problem for poor people trying to start up a business is that they can't get a loan to get started. If we have more microcredit agencies like teh Grameen Bank, we could help solve this injustice.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3454545 - 12/06/04 02:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> but people should not have a large part of their income taken away by force to support a behemoth of a government

I don't mind the government taking a large chunk of my income, but I wan't equal representation of my money... in other words, I want it going towards stuff that benefits everybody, not just lazy people that don't feel like working.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454642 - 12/06/04 02:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

In the course of writing my term paper for Sociology of Religion, I came across a theory that is possibly the best argument in favor of welfare that I've ever heard. My paper was on the paths of religious development that the United States has taken on the one hand, and that Europe has taken on the other. In other words, I was trying to find why Europe has become more secular while the US has become more religous, and one theory proposes that it has to do with the welfare state. It basically says that in the absense of government welfare, churches tend to provide for the poor instead, and that with the rise of the welfare state, those churches become increasingly irrelevant in society. Basically, this theory says that Americans are more religious because of the important role religion continues to play in helping the needy, whereas in Europe, the government has completely taken over that job, and thus made religion obsolete. Of course, in its place, we see a sort of state religion which worships the Nanny State?, which I find about equally appalling.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3454720 - 12/06/04 02:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know what welfare leads to, but I can definitely say that LACK of welfare leads to an increase in crime.

A lot of idealistic conservatives don't tend to face the grim meathook reality of the fact that if poor people are allowed to be poor, eventually they will start robbing and murdering rich people. Its as simple as that.

So: you don't think that the state has a moral right to take from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. I hope you like dodging bullets.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3454731 - 12/06/04 02:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I don't know what welfare leads to, but I can definitely say that LACK of welfare leads to an increase in crime.



If we're talking about all forms of welfare, I agree. But just be aware that government welfare isn't the only kind.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3455106 - 12/06/04 04:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I don't know what welfare leads to, but I can definitely say that LACK of welfare leads to an increase in crime.

A lot of idealistic conservatives don't tend to face the grim meathook reality of the fact that if poor people are allowed to be poor, eventually they will start robbing and murdering rich people. Its as simple as that.

So: you don't think that the state has a moral right to take from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. I hope you like dodging bullets.




theres also the issue that welfare establishes a true minimum wage..since no employer can pay less per month or per year than welfare..unlike the hourly minimum wage that still allows them to reduce hours...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3455262 - 12/06/04 05:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


So: you don't think that the state has a moral right to take from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. I hope you like dodging bullets.

It's more cost effective to pay for police and prisons.

:lol:


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3455863 - 12/06/04 07:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Tao,

I talked to a conservative uncle about this one time.
Yeah, he believed that government welfare leads to dependency. But he did give a bit of money to various charity (a lot of it was for environmental conservation, but I assume that's not what we're talking about). He would give money for inner city youth programs and money towards getting better computers and supplies for struggling schools, etc. I think that by doing that, he felt he was helping out, but not causing any direct kind of dependency.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Gijith]
    #3455922 - 12/06/04 07:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The dependancy comes about when the recipient believes that he is entitled to the assistance. If he realizes that it comes from the freely given good wishes of others who see him as temporarily down but willing to get himself back up if he can, then he will try to get himself back up. If not he will just keep sitting around bitching about how little he is getting and why we should give him more.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456040 - 12/06/04 07:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

To think abolishing welfare will allow for charities to help out the poor is ludicris. It doesn't happen. Sure a church may set up a soup kitchen or homeless shelter but they don't exactly do much more. Sure, there is all sorts of wonderful little stories about charities but this hardly accounts for the poor of this country. If you abolish welfare your ass is gettin' robbed, period. I point to some graf half a block away from my place: "Eat The Rich!" Welfare should be left up to the states as to allow innovation of this tricky problem. Texas can abolish the whole thing and become a sunny day in Bahgdad for all I care. Welfare should be designed to set up employment (in gov construction works etc. instead of giving these jobs to landowner's/politician's buddies as here in LA) Not to give handouts. The problem is the way our welfare system is set up, not welfare itself.

You don't like getting money taken from you? How is it more cost effective to hire bodyguards so your children don't get kidnapped(like in mexico) or living 10 miles away from any neighbors. Welfare is a public service that serves everybody just like the road you drive on.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3456128 - 12/06/04 07:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Churches and religious orders provided social services for centuries before state welfare existed. Several Catholic monastic orders were founded solely on the basis of serving the poor. Religion has historically thrived on assistance to the poor, which may explain why poor people generally tend to be more religious. Your assertion that abolishing welfare would result in me getting robbed is based in ignorance. Welfare IS robbery, albeit state-sanctioned robbery. Fact is that there are several countries much poorer than the US which also have much lower crime rates.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456316 - 12/06/04 08:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Churches and religious orders provided social services for centuries before state welfare existed. Several Catholic monastic orders were founded solely on the basis of serving the poor.




Thats because it didn't exist before. The church doesn't have the place in society now as it did then. For years religuos orders got money from doweries from wealthy nuns and their place within the government and the vast amount of land that was owned by it. This isn't the case anymore. You can't assume that the church has the same financial clout or personal clout it once did. Do you claim that the lower-classes where better off at this time anyways?

Quote:

Your assertion that abolishing welfare would result in me getting robbed is based in ignorance.




How? People will rob you when they are frustrated with their financial situation. If you have no job and no money and lil billy is crying for food you will find no qualm knocking somebody out for there wallet. Or running a drug ring. You need money now you can't just "go get a job"--they won't pay up front even if you could get a job at that moment. But now there is no unemployment or welfare and you need to eat so its time to go down to the burbs and go play stick-em-up.

Quote:

Fact is that there are several countries much poorer than the US which also have much lower crime rates.




Who cares? This is irrelevant to the discussion.



I'm not saying the current state of welfare works but to get rid of it isn't going to make you any better off. You really get what you pay for. It's minor compared to other fleecing of you taxes that is going on. Alot of people abuse it but it truley helps more people than people who abuse it in my experiance.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3456379 - 12/06/04 08:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:
Quote:

Churches and religious orders provided social services for centuries before state welfare existed. Several Catholic monastic orders were founded solely on the basis of serving the poor.




Thats because it didn't exist before. The church doesn't have the place in society now as it did then. For years religuos orders got money from doweries from wealthy nuns and their place within the government and the vast amount of land that was owned by it. This isn't the case anymore. You can't assume that the church has the same financial clout or personal clout it once did. Do you claim that the lower-classes where better off at this time anyways?



"Better off" is hard to measure. In some ways I'd say yes. In other ways, no. If you grow your own food, you're less likely to starve to death. On the other hand, a lot of them were serfs, bound to land and forced to give up much of what they produced(much like the current tax system). Anyway, you apparently missed my point. I was pointing out that a decline in religion can be attributed to the rise of the welfare state. This is a likely reason why Europe has become so secular while the United States is still strongly religious, and Canada is somewhere in the middle.

Quote:

Quote:

Your assertion that abolishing welfare would result in me getting robbed is based in ignorance.




How? People will rob you when they are frustrated with their financial situation. If you have no job and no money and lil billy is crying for food you will find no qualm knocking somebody out for there wallet. Or running a drug ring. You need money now you can't just "go get a job"--they won't pay up front even if you could get a job at that moment. But now there is no unemployment or welfare and you need to eat so its time to go down to the burbs and go play stick-em-up.



Could you explain to me then why there was a big drop in violent crime during the Great Depression?

Quote:

Quote:

Fact is that there are several countries much poorer than the US which also have much lower crime rates.




Who cares? This is irrelevant to the discussion.



Actually, it's very relevant to the previous point you responded to.

Quote:

I'm not saying the current state of welfare works but to get rid of it isn't going to make you any better off. You really get what you pay for. It's minor compared to other fleecing of you taxes that is going on. Alot of people abuse it but it truley helps more people than people who abuse it in my experiance.



I'm all for a social safety net. I just don't trust the state to run it, and I don't want them running it by force.


--------------------


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3456412 - 12/06/04 08:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

welfare gives over 70% of every tax dollar to overhead. bureaucrats!

private charities give over 70% of every dollar to those who need help.

i love volunteer work, and i have worked with government workers who leave early from a project because they are overtime exempt.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456468 - 12/06/04 09:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I was pointing out that a decline in religion can be attributed to the rise of the welfare state. This is a likely reason why Europe has become so secular while the United States is still strongly religious, and Canada is somewhere in the middle.




I don't believe that. Maybe you should post your term paper or whatever to explain it to me but I feel there is alot more to the rise and fall of welfare vs religion and they have little to do with each other. For instance, does the welfare recipient necessarily preach the word of the government to the same effect as those receiving religious charity? Or the state sanctioned aethism of the soviet union?

Quote:

Could you explain to me then why there was a big drop in violent crime during the Great Depression?




If everybody is broke who you gonna rob? Maybe the implimentation of Social services?

Quote:


Actually, it's very relevant to the previous point you responded to.




No its not because every country is poorer than the US and our violent crime rate is astronomical compared to most industrailized nations.

Quote:


I'm all for a social safety net. I just don't trust the state to run it, and I don't want them running it by force.




How do you have a social saftey net without it being state run? I'm for the states to run this but not the feds. States are more apt to assess their own situation. Its there or it isn't IMO. I guess we are back to the beginning....


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3456480 - 12/06/04 09:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

welfare gives over 70% of every tax dollar to overhead. bureaucrats!




exactly the problem. This system need to be massively overhauled.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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OfflineTao
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3456613 - 12/06/04 09:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
welfare gives over 70% of every tax dollar to overhead. bureaucrats!

private charities give over 70% of every dollar to those who need help.






source?


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OfflineTao
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456632 - 12/06/04 09:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Could you explain to me then why there was a big drop in violent crime during the Great Depression?





end of prohibition?


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Offlinerezzan1
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3456684 - 12/06/04 09:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
shouldn't they be principally opposed to most forms of charity?




PRINCIPALLY(I guess their is not a group that fits entirely into my princaples, thank god!)

Generally speaking for their entire group is assuming a lot on anyones part. I am oppossed to a welfare system that is constantly abused and which creates dependancy. I am also oppossed to a charity that does the same. I would much rather have a government impower it's lower class, and IMO you do not do that by giving them everything they need.

Doesn't the government want to keep unemployment at a certain rate? Doesn't the government want low wages? I mean if no one is unemployed and wages were at an all time high. How would this nation be than?


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3456837 - 12/06/04 10:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:
Quote:

I was pointing out that a decline in religion can be attributed to the rise of the welfare state. This is a likely reason why Europe has become so secular while the United States is still strongly religious, and Canada is somewhere in the middle.




I don't believe that. Maybe you should post your term paper or whatever to explain it to me but I feel there is alot more to the rise and fall of welfare vs religion and they have little to do with each other. For instance, does the welfare recipient necessarily preach the word of the government to the same effect as those receiving religious charity? Or the state sanctioned aethism of the soviet union?



My term paper addresses welfare as one of several factors contributing to the decline of religion in Europe. I didn't devote more than a paragraph to it. As for welfare recipients, I think you'll find that the strongest promoters of socialism in socialist countries tend to be those who benefit most from it. They may not preach it with the same "You're going to hell if you don't believe this" attitude, but they tend to put about as much faith in it.

Quote:

Quote:

Could you explain to me then why there was a big drop in violent crime during the Great Depression?




If everybody is broke who you gonna rob? Maybe the implimentation of Social services?



I think you'd better do some research. Not everyone was broke during the Great Depression. It was a hard time with lots of unemployment, but there were rich people to rob, if they so chose. The difference is that back then, poor people didn't have this attitude about society owing them something.

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, it's very relevant to the previous point you responded to.




No its not because every country is poorer than the US and our violent crime rate is astronomical compared to most industrailized nations.



Ya, funny how that works, huh? I guess being poor doesn't make people criminals after all.

Quote:

Quote:

I'm all for a social safety net. I just don't trust the state to run it, and I don't want them running it by force.




How do you have a social saftey net without it being state run? I'm for the states to run this but not the feds. States are more apt to assess their own situation. Its there or it isn't IMO. I guess we are back to the beginning....



I know this is probably a total shock to you, but do you think that maybe...just maybe...some people care enough about the poor to contribute voluntarily fund such a safety net?


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3456982 - 12/06/04 10:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I know this is probably a total shock to you, but do you think that maybe...just maybe...some people care enough about the poor to contribute voluntarily fund such a safety net?




I don't question that there would be charities whose sole purpose was to help those in need. What I do question is if there would be a universal system that could cover everyone.

I can imagine that gays, unwed mothers and drug addicts to name a few would have a much harder time finding help compared to say a white christian.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: newuser1492]
    #3457098 - 12/06/04 11:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Then I think you must have very different experiences with Christians than I have. You'd be amazed how many former drug addicts become Evangelical Christians. And the religious people have a very strong reason to look after unwed mothers: to reduce the number of abortions. While gays may have trouble at some charities, there will certainly be other charities, religious or secular, that will be more than happy to serve them. Personally, the think the "white christian" in your example is the one they'd be least interested in helping. Many of them want to "save" people, so they'll likely look for people who they think need saving. Of course, I'm talking only of the more Evangelical Christian groups. Other more mainstream denominations tend to have more open-minded attitudes towards those things than Evangelicals.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3457581 - 12/07/04 12:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

has anyone ever heard of State Taxpayer Choice. (like school choice). the taxpayers could allocate their welfare tax dollars to any qualified charity, public or private. the bureaucrats are fighting it just like the teachers union is fighting school choice.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3457593 - 12/07/04 12:34 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3457615 - 12/07/04 12:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

great, i did not know that. dollar for dollar. that would give the people needing help more choices.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: newuser1492]
    #3458077 - 12/07/04 02:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I can imagine that gays, unwed mothers and drug addicts to name a few would have a much harder time finding help compared to say a white christian.

Not to mention anyone who wants to have an abortion. We would be handing power over life and death to fundamentalist christian lunatics.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3458498 - 12/07/04 04:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Private charity can lead to dependence. For instance, giving clothing and food to poor Africans can wipe out the local businessmen trying to sell clothes and food, creating a situation where withdrawing aid can create more hardship than the aid prevented.

Not all forms of aid necessarily create serious dependence. For example, some disaster relief; or providing food and medical care to people displaced by war. However, disaster relief for people living in areas where disaster (flood, hurricane, earthquake) can be expected can bring a form of dependency.

In my view there are situations in which people or organizations (which could mean the state) should lend a hand. However, the repercussions of the aid should always be considered, and that includes the likely effects of eventually withdrawing aid.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Xlea321]
    #3458537 - 12/07/04 05:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We would be handing power over life and death to fundamentalist christian lunatics.



I believe abortions should be legal, to a point.

I don't believe in Christ by any name.

I don't think abortions should be taxpayer funded.

Does hat make me and those who think like me a "fundamentalist christian lunatic"?


--------------------
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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3458658 - 12/07/04 08:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

welfare gives over 70% of every tax dollar to overhead. bureaucrats!




This basically sums it up for me. If governments werent so grossly corrupt and incompetent we could pay far, far less in taxes and it would go a whole lot further.

and another thing, until somebody can prove that there are enough jobs for every single person to earn an acceptable living then the arguement that we shouldnt have to pay for "fat lazy slobs" doesnt hold any water because although there maybe some leeching the system are they in the minority or the majority? and is it fair to prevent other people from gaining the help they need to live, just because some people abuse the system?

We all live as part of a society which like it or not it IS a collective. If the collective system we choose to live in produces a level of society where people live in poverty then of course those at other levels of society shpuld be more than willing to redistribute wealth to help those people out. With a little less selfishness dressed as noble individualism and a more efficient and honest government these sort of problems would soon become irrelevant and we might be able to actually move onto something a little more interesting...


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3458693 - 12/07/04 08:52 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.




What????? Can you direct me to an explanation of this? My understanding of what the Libertarian position would be is that the government should not be subsidizing anyone's choice of charitable giving, nor should it be involved in defining suitable charities. Are you saying they want to INCREASE the value of tax deductions for charitable giving? Are you sure?


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Xlea321]
    #3459732 - 12/07/04 03:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I can imagine that gays, unwed mothers and drug addicts to name a few would have a much harder time finding help compared to say a white christian.

Not to mention anyone who wants to have an abortion. We would be handing power over life and death to fundamentalist christian lunatics.



*sigh* :shake:

Not all religious charities are run by "fundamentalist Christian lunatics."


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Anonymous

Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3459778 - 12/07/04 03:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

those predominantly black inner-city congregations... buncha fundamentalist lunatics i tell ya...


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3459812 - 12/07/04 03:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.




What????? Can you direct me to an explanation of this? My understanding of what the Libertarian position would be is that the government should not be subsidizing anyone's choice of charitable giving, nor should it be involved in defining suitable charities. Are you saying they want to INCREASE the value of tax deductions for charitable giving? Are you sure?




From the Libertarian Party Platform:

We call for the immediate cessation of such fiscal and monetary policies, as well as any governmental attempts to affect employment levels. We support repeal of all laws that impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws, so-called "protective" labor legislation for women and children, governmental restrictions on the establishment of private day-care centers, and the National Labor Relations Act. We deplore government-fostered forced retirement, which robs the elderly of the right to work. To speed the time when governmental programs are replaced by effective private institutions we advocate dollar-for-dollar tax credits for all charitable contributions.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3459848 - 12/07/04 03:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

libertarians aren't opposed to social welfare programs only because of dependency thing. they oppose it mainly because it means initiation of force.

it may be possible to set up a welfare system that makes it unlikely that the welfare system itself would breed dependency, but you could never set up a government welfare program that could be supported without the initiation of force.

voluntary charity is already less likely to create unwelcome dependence and it requires no initiation of force.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: ]
    #3460231 - 12/07/04 04:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

you could never set up a government welfare program that could be supported without the initiation of force.




*government*

since we initiate force for certain things, it seems there is a higher good we are striving for. for many/most that is increased prosperity for the society, the question is can welfare help this or does it just cause dependence. i think what really needs to happen is create some market solutions for the problem, encourage competition among NGO's and charity organizations to provide the best service possible in exchange for subsidies, instead of just handing over a check to those under a certain income.

Quote:


voluntary charity is already less likely to create unwelcome dependence




why do you say that?


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3460256 - 12/07/04 04:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

since we initiate force for certain things, it seems there is a higher good we are striving for.

we are each striving for our own higher good. increased prosperity is a relative concept that means different things for different people. we should all be allowed to persue out own vision of a higher good, as long as we allow others to do the same. buraeucrats and public officials are probably the last people in a position to decide what higher good people will orient themselves toward.

yes, all government will initiate force, but doesn't negate the reasons for restraining the power of government over people's lives.

why do you say that?

because when people feel that their voluntary contributions are ending up in the hands of people who don't really need them, they can make contributions elsewhere. not so with a government welfare system.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: ]
    #3460396 - 12/07/04 05:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

allowing people to pursue their vision of the good is only part. enabling them to do so can also be argued to be part. someone stuck on hard times or a child in desititue poverty can have all the negative freedom in the world and it won't do him a lick of good.

the family welfare that 'welfare' generally refers to accounts for somehting like 2% of the govt budget, hardly much of a dent into my ability to pursue my own good and yet it could do a hell of a lot of good for enabling those in hard times to pursue theirs----if the money is put in the correct channels (i.e. not the current ones)


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: silversoul7]
    #3460648 - 12/07/04 06:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.




What????? Can you direct me to an explanation of this? My understanding of what the Libertarian position would be is that the government should not be subsidizing anyone's choice of charitable giving, nor should it be involved in defining suitable charities. Are you saying they want to INCREASE the value of tax deductions for charitable giving? Are you sure?




From the Libertarian Party Platform:

We call for the immediate cessation of such fiscal and monetary policies, as well as any governmental attempts to affect employment levels. We support repeal of all laws that impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws, so-called "protective" labor legislation for women and children, governmental restrictions on the establishment of private day-care centers, and the National Labor Relations Act. We deplore government-fostered forced retirement, which robs the elderly of the right to work. To speed the time when governmental programs are replaced by effective private institutions we advocate dollar-for-dollar tax credits for all charitable contributions.




Holy fucking shit! They haven't won elections to be dog catchers and they're selling out their principles. Fucking shoot them now.


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Anonymous

Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3460711 - 12/07/04 06:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

allowing people to pursue their vision of the good is only part. enabling them to do so can also be argued to be part

the government can only enable some to persue their goals by preventing others from persuing theirs.

i have a problem with the government trying, in any shape or form, to hijack the efforts of people and steer society towards a set of arbitrary values that not everyone in society shares.

everyone has different ideals. some want to eliminate poverty. some want to eliminate ignorance. some want to spread their religion. some want to get rich. some to want to convert people to a vegetarian diet. some want to further scientific knowledge. some want to raise children. each person should be allowed to persue their own values. they should not be forced to contribute to the visions of others at the expense of their own.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3460864 - 12/07/04 07:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You already can get tax deductions for charity donations. The Libertarian Party is currently pushing for dollar-for-dollar deductions.




What????? Can you direct me to an explanation of this? My understanding of what the Libertarian position would be is that the government should not be subsidizing anyone's choice of charitable giving, nor should it be involved in defining suitable charities. Are you saying they want to INCREASE the value of tax deductions for charitable giving? Are you sure?




From the Libertarian Party Platform:

We call for the immediate cessation of such fiscal and monetary policies, as well as any governmental attempts to affect employment levels. We support repeal of all laws that impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws, so-called "protective" labor legislation for women and children, governmental restrictions on the establishment of private day-care centers, and the National Labor Relations Act. We deplore government-fostered forced retirement, which robs the elderly of the right to work. To speed the time when governmental programs are replaced by effective private institutions we advocate dollar-for-dollar tax credits for all charitable contributions.




Holy fucking shit! They haven't won elections to be dog catchers and they're selling out their principles. Fucking shoot them now.



It's a transitional thing. They understand that it will be a while before we'll be able to end income taxes, so in the meantime they're proposing things which will give people more controll over how their money is spent.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3461040 - 12/07/04 08:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


the family welfare that 'welfare' generally refers to accounts for somehting like 2% of the govt budget,

Income redistribution(giving poor people free stuff) takes up a hell of a lot more than 2% of the budget.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3472584 - 12/09/04 09:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I don't know what welfare leads to, but I can definitely say that LACK of welfare leads to an increase in crime.




It depends on your definition of crime. I'd say that the government stealing from the people is a crime in and of itself and I'd submit to you that the Constitution backs this belief up.
Quote:


A lot of idealistic conservatives don't tend to face the grim meathook reality of the fact that if poor people are allowed to be poor, eventually they will start robbing and murdering rich people. Its as simple as that.




So I can either have my money stolen by the government to protect me from the thieves or I can have the thieves steal from me directly. How about we just stop welfare and let me deal with the threat upon my person as the Constitution allows me to?
It's interesting that you add murder in this discussion. Why would they murder a rich person? Stealing I can somewhat understand and possibly even justify, but murder?
Doesn't this sound a bit like extortion to you? We have our money taken from us forcefully to prevent others from attacking and killing us. I don't like that one damn bit.
Quote:


So: you don't think that the state has a moral right to take from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. I hope you like dodging bullets.



The concept of "moral right" and "the state" are so far apart that I'm trying to understand how you can group them. Does the state have a "moral right" to ensure that homosexuals don't marry? Morality is somewhat subjective, the common American's understanding of morality at least. If poor people would rather shoot at and possibly kill me for my money rather than working then they deserve the end that they would meet for attempting it.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: Tao]
    #3473132 - 12/09/04 10:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yes. Some people abuse the system. I have a friend with a dad with a severe disability who got a fat check from the gov every month. BUT, you cannot dismiss welfare as only an institution of dependence. The fact is that, in this economic system, there is a section of the population that MUST be worse off than others- they are underrepresented, underprotected, underpayed, underemployed. YES- any one individual in this group can climb the ladder and be successful, but if you look at the whole demographic, this group must exist, or capitalism will not work. So, I'm not supporting the inefficient ways the government funds welfare, but I do agree that the gov should be in charge of dispersing the wealth to empower this group on who's shoulders the higher classes depend most of the time. People will abuse the system, but that does not justify abandoning those in this group who will use the money wisely. Churches can do their part, and so can money.
I think people worry way too much about a poor person abusing the privelage of welfare, and the taxes that support this abuse on a large scale. There are much much larger problems that these individuals who complain about welfare don't seem to mind ie- corporate corruption and tax evasion. The government loses (i think i've heard) in the range of many 10's of billions of dollars (i'll try to find a source) from companies thwarting attempts at tax collection. And Bush stripped the agency that watches over these illegal practices of necessary funding (funding that is a small investment that can save taxpayers much money). I guess if you're anti-taxes, you can say that these companies have a right to avoid paying taxes, but that is just a difference in opinion.
On a different note, one supporting libertarianism, Cb94l mentioned that churches wouldn't necessarily take care of addicts. But does our government imprisonment policy? Even more important than welfare, in my opinion, is the downfall of the war on drugs. Around 250,000 people are in jail for drug offenses, and most have no violent record. They are not criminal types, but the gov says they are because they use/sell drugs. Minorities are highly highly overrepresented in prisons, and are torn from their families, which are often thrown out of housing and have nobody to protect them. Ending the WOD would have a 2-fold beneficial effect on the economy. 1- it would return the inmates to the working world so they can support their families and fill that niche for low-paying jobs that is necessary to the function of society and 2- we would save 10s of billions of dollars a year on prison costs, law enforcement costs. The WOD represents the most disgraceful disregard for the lives and welfare of the lower class.


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Re: If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency [Re: nycomyco]
    #3473173 - 12/09/04 10:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Churches can do wonderful things, and volunteers that work with churchgroups and or other charities are extremely generous. But, one flaw i see with the system is that these churches/charities almost always work on the local level. This means that churches in rich areas will have lots of money, but little need to do much in their immediate community, while churches in poor neighborhoods could be wonderful tools in helping many individuals, but they do not have the capital to back it up. Now, I don't think the gov't should hand out money to churches because there is nothing really insuring that they are working fair/ not forcing ideology on people (i'm not saying this always happens), so to me an efficient and "overhauled" system of government welfare is the answer. Charity and church work will always be done out of the charity of the volunteer's heart.


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* other boards?
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by Innvertigo
* libertarian socialism
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by puffpuff23

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