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Anonymous

other boards?
    #2698521 - 05/18/04 10:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i feel like when i post here, i'm just parroting the same libertarian critiques of the same lame collectivist arguments over and over again. it's getting dull. worse yet, sometimes when i make an argument which i actually know myself to be incomplete or flawed (i do that sometimes), it often goes unquestioned.

i've felt like this for some time.

i'm just a 20 year old guy who's read a couple books on philosophy and politics. i'm far more aware of my own ignorance than i let on when i post here.

my dilemma is this: no offense to those here (there are many great minds) but perhaps the fires of this board aren't hot enough to test my views and arguments. i don't feel like they are. it feels like it's been some time since someone here really made me think.

can anyone suggest another political discussion board that includes and tolerates different views (and is preferably visited by more well-read thinkers than late-adolescent mushroom growers)?

thanks for the suggestions and thanks for entertaining this brief rambling of mine...

(ps. i really don't mean to offend anyone here. i'm sure a lot of people here feel like this sometimes. there are some great minds here)


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OfflineTao
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Re: other boards? [Re: ]
    #2698593 - 05/18/04 10:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I get frustrated often as well by receiving these condensed parroted libertarian quotes. I think part of the problem is the medium we communicate. Often is laborious to quote and respond to each point and then type it all out instead of just saying it which woudl be so much quicker--to the point where often i'll just let something die because it would take to much time and i have more important things to do (imagine that, more important things to do than debate on the internet). I would suggest going to a debating club or perhaps a political club that participates in debates at your university. People there might be brighter/better read opposition (but might not). my friend who does things like that is a 1600 SAT guy, won a national geography contest (worth 25,000) when he was younger, and reads biographies of political figures and other political books for fun during class . And it would solve the problem of the medium as well. I like this website because it doesn't have an official political slant (other than anti-drug prohibition), though for whatever reason, the conservative side (you, evolving, pinky, lds and i guess ss7) post a lot more than the liberal side. And the two I find to be the most well-read (evolving and pinky) are on that side as well.
If the club thing doesnt suit you, maybe you should try having some discussions with a professor outside of class during office hours (or maybe after the end of the course if youre paranoid about your grade). im assuming youve taken some politics classes?
but again, i think on this medium, the internet, we often resort to quips, parroting and condensed arguments, which is an unfortunate trade-off for the benefits of its wide reach in audience.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: other boards? [Re: Tao]
    #2699414 - 05/19/04 01:57 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

That is, indeed, the crux of the biscuit.

I often find that I'd respond to arguments/discussions on this board if I didn't have to type it :smile:  I even type at over 100 wpm, and I still just don't feel like taking the effort at times.

I do get frustrated with things on the board (this one, and some of the others to which I post - democraticunderground.com, for one) at times, as well.  People tend to do something online that I find distracting, and although it's something that I find some people doing IRL, it's much less common.  On the boards, people have a much greater tendency to write what they want about a subject and then check to see how people respond to what they wrote, often only continuing the "conversation" if someone replies directly to them.

Unfortunately, this is not really communicating.  Additionally, it tends to bring out the "look at me!" in many of us... people might be more vehement than they normally would; or they might resort to sensationalism or even personal or ad hominem attacks against others to this end.  It can get a little disheartening.

But the reason that I keep coming back to the shroomery boards is to see what people think.  I already know what hardcore Democrats and other progressives think because of all the other sites that I visit; what's nice about this board is that I don't really understand where some people who might not always see eye to eye with me are coming from, and I can educate myself here - not only to the opinions and viewpoints of reasonably intelligent people who hold views opposite to my own (read:  Luvdem, Mushmaster, et. al. and not Hannity and Coulter et. al.), but also to educate myself further in the psychological inner workings of politics and more generally, belief systems.  See, those of us who partake in ethnogens tend to be a little more open and honest with ourselves, and that lends a very different air to the discussions that go on around here.  It's refreshing, if not sometimes maddening.  :smile:

Anyway, I'm becoming a bit rambli-shous, so I'll shaddup.

If you get annoyed, just take some time away from the Shroomery boards and check back in a few weeks.  I do that from time to time and it keeps my perspective a little fresher.

Gern


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OnlineLearyfan
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Re: other boards? [Re: ]
    #2699425 - 05/19/04 02:02 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:mad2:







--------------------
--------------------------------


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: other boards? [Re: ]
    #2699859 - 05/19/04 05:03 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

i'm just parroting the same libertarian critiques of the same lame collectivist arguments




Heres your problem. You are not actually thinking.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: other boards? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2699864 - 05/19/04 05:04 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

But I do know what you mean!!  :grin:

Ive been thinking the same sort of things myself.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: other boards? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2700319 - 05/19/04 10:40 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

i'm just parroting the same libertarian critiques of the same lame collectivist arguments




Heres your problem. You are not actually thinking.



No, the problem is that nobody here has been able to refute these arguments, and thus has not challenged his mind sufficiently.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: other boards? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2700368 - 05/19/04 10:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

gimme a break! What, the arguements that only exist in a fantasy world? How can you refute a fantasy world?...give me some REAL WORLD examples where these ideas have worked.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: other boards? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2700377 - 05/19/04 10:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
gimme a break! What, the arguements that only exist in a fantasy world?



They're arguments based on logic, something severely lacking in many members of this forum.

Quote:

How can you refute a fantasy world?...give me some REAL WORLD examples where these ideas have worked.



America during the time of the founding fathers would be a good example.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: other boards? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2700408 - 05/19/04 11:05 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

They're arguments based on logic




To be honest some of the members who expound these ideas actually have a very poor grasp of logic. They are quite good at saying this is logic but when you actually look closely at some of the premises there is actually a distinct lack of true logic.

Quote:

America during the time of the founding fathers would be a good example.




Not a particularly good example as the world has changed beyond all recognition since those times.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: other boards? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2700426 - 05/19/04 11:11 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

They're arguments based on logic




To be honest some of the members who expound these ideas actually have a very poor grasp of logic. They are quite good at saying this is logic but when you actually look closely at some of the premises there is actually a distinct lack of true logic.



If this were true, then why can't any of you liberals refute their logical flaws?

Quote:

Quote:

America during the time of the founding fathers would be a good example.




Not a particularly good example as the world has changed beyond all recognition since those times.



Not as much as you think.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: other boards? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2700453 - 05/19/04 11:19 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If this were true, then why can't any of you liberals refute their logical flaws?




As far as im concerned I have done time and time again! Actually, i agree with alot of what mush has to say but I just think that philosophy is a little bit selfish and really doesnt cater for caring for those in society who actually need help.  And anyway stop throwing your silly little labels around  :grin:  I prefer to keep my options open. I am only a liberal in other peoples eyes.

Quote:

Not as much as you think. 




Err..yeah. We have just seen more advances and changes than in the rest of human history put together, we are in the midst of a revolution in conciousness but nothing much has really changed?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: other boards? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2700462 - 05/19/04 11:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

As far as im concerned I have done time and time again!



I would refute this, except that I could see this turning into the Monty Python "argument" sketch.

Quote:

Err..yeah. We have just seen more advances and changes than in the rest of human history put together, we are in the midst of a revolution in conciousness but nothing much has really changed?



Technology does not change human nature.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: other boards? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2700464 - 05/19/04 11:23 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

how do you know this

are there NO limits?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: other boards? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2700466 - 05/19/04 11:23 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You seem awful sure about that! So you think that human nature is 100% hardwired into the brain and can never be changed?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: other boards? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2700473 - 05/19/04 11:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
You seem awful sure about that! So you think that human nature is 100% hardwired into the brain and can never be changed?



Perhaps it could evolve. However, I see no changes in the world which would indicate a change in human nature. If you could point me to any, I'd love to see if you could prove me wrong.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: other boards? [Re: vampirism]
    #2700476 - 05/19/04 11:28 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
how do you know this

are there NO limits?



Ok, so perhaps technology COULD change human nature, but from what I've seen, it has yet to do so.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: other boards? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2700480 - 05/19/04 11:29 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

you have not lived in different time periods :tongue:

looking at undeveloped countries is not relevant - they are not as they were, though they seem the same. Example: The !Kung in the Kalahari desert are foragers and claim to always have been foragers - yet they will go out and raise cattle for others WITH THEIR OWN skills

they acquired this recently to make money

it's sort of like quantum physics, in that a developed country, in exploring undeveloped ones, develops the undeveloped country in some way


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: other boards? [Re: ]
    #2700502 - 05/19/04 11:41 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I thought you'd retired months ago mush, what made you come back?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: other boards? [Re: vampirism]
    #2700510 - 05/19/04 11:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
you have not lived in different time periods :tongue:



Are you saying I had to actually be present in order to look at history?  There are historical records, you know.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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