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Invisibledaussaulit
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Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
School board votes to add Bible elective
    #4102568 - 04/27/05 02:02 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/04/27/bible.class.ap/index.html
Quote:

ODESSA, Texas (AP) -- The school board in the West Texas town of Odessa voted unanimously to add a Bible class to its high school curriculum.

Hundreds of people, most of them supporters of the proposal, packed the board meeting Tuesday night. More than 6,000 Odessa residents had signed a petition supporting the class.

Some residents, however, said the school board acted too quickly. Others said they feared a national constitutional fight.

Barring any hurdles, the class should be added to the curriculum in fall 2006 and taught as a history or literature course. The school board still must develop a curriculum, which board member Floy Hinson said should be open for public review.

The board had heard a presentation in March from Mike Johnson, a representative of the Greensboro, North Carolina-based National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools, who said that coursework designed by that organization is not about proselytizing or preaching.

But People for the American Way and the American Civil Liberties union have criticized the council, saying its materials promote religion.

Johnson said students in the elective class would learn such things as the geography of the Middle East and the influence of the Bible on history and culture.

"How can students understand Leonardo da Vinci's 'Last Supper' or Handel's 'Messiah' if they don't understand the reference from which they came?" Johnson said. The group's Web site says its curriculum has received backing in 292 school districts in 35 states.

In Frankenmuth, Michigan, a similar proposal led to a yearlong controversy before the school board voted in January not to offer such a course.



so they're offering a bible course in a public school? I think there is going to be a big fight. I hope my tax dollars aren't paying for it, it's optional, and it is held after school.


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OfflineSWEDEN
Miracle of Science

Registered: 10/25/04
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: daussaulit]
    #4102654 - 04/27/05 02:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I've studied the bible extensively, I don't know why anyone takes that nonsense seriously. Some folks are crazy I guess. To base your whole life on an archaic belief system dominated by some revenge-crazed, power-hungry deity intent on meddling with human affairs... wait, I think I'm begining to understand why America is so fucked up right now.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: daussaulit]
    #4102850 - 04/27/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbdown:

Put simply, it's pure and utter bullshit!

Unless that is, they are also going to offer the full gambit of religious teachings and denominations as electives (they won't).

Seperation of Church and State indeed... regardless of the fact of the matter of it being an elective, it still promotes one religion over the other by virtue of the venue not being evenly distributed.

Simply put; Teach all religions objectively in terms of historical insight... or teach none at all.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: daussaulit]
    #4102946 - 04/27/05 04:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I don't see a problem with teaching the history and such behind the Bible as long as it's for serious academic research and not conversion/ preaching. I think it'd be a good opportunity for kids if they had the option to take classes for the history and academic study of all religions, individual ones for Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam, etc., so that any kid who wanted to study the history of religion could do so.

People nowadays should distinguish between preaching and learning.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: Ravus]
    #4102995 - 04/27/05 04:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Do you advocate teaching the historical merit of all the other religious doctrines in conjunction to the bible as electives?

If not, Its an issue as all "histories" aren't equally represented.

Their will always be moral overtones being traught in addition to the religion, it is unavoidable, as in order to teach the history, one must share the subsequent affiliated with it, to give it a perspective for reasoning of actions; actions that are used to justify some of the historical movements associated with the bible.

Objectivity, and religion, rarely walk side by side, especially in respects to teaching.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: Ravus]
    #4102999 - 04/27/05 04:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you Ravus. This is clearly an act of teaching, not preaching. This is for academics sake. It's optional, it's after school. Some people find religion very interesting, as it is one of the biggest factors of humanity. I'm completely down for this 100%. As long as it's optional.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: freddurgan]
    #4103011 - 04/27/05 04:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What if they were offering the history of Satanism in it's pure format? i.e. not calling it politics.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4103042 - 04/27/05 04:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Do you advocate teaching the historical merit of all the other religious doctrines in conjunction to the bible as electives?




No, not all other religious doctrines, as there are probably hundreds of possible classes we'd have to teach in that case, but the major ones definitely. In an academic-minded school, a religious class would start off with the Bible and Christianity because that's the most widespread one in this nation, and then other religious classes like those teaching the history of Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and such would start popping up.

It's really the same with science classes. You start off with mainstream science like biology and chemistry, and then as students respond to those science classes you can add more theoretical and less known science topics like Quantum Physics and cosmology. If students hate science and don't take it then you don't add those, same with a Christianity class, in which a bad response will probably eliminate this course, and a good one will hopefully add the study of more philosophies to the school.

Under the understanding that any religious or philosophical classes would be completely optional and consenting, of course.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: Ravus]
    #4103053 - 04/27/05 04:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

:handth:

It'd have to be objective as possible, and making full attempts to not indoctrinate, and justify its content correct?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4103077 - 04/27/05 04:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What do you mean "justify its content"?

I agree with the first two, but I don't understand what you'd justify in the Bible. I think a Bible class is a bit narrow anyway, they should make it a History of Christianity class or such, and talk about the Hebrew era when Jesus lived, the Roman interference, the Judaism of the day and how it influenced the Bible and Christianity, etc. It really is a fascinating subject, and even the most Nihilistic kid could learn a lot about history by the academic subjects they would research in such a class I'm sure.

I don't think "political correctness" should take away the study of any history, whether it's the history of Christianity or the history of Satanism. It's all just knowledge to me, and maybe that's why I fail to see the problem with a purely academic Bible class.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: Ravus]
    #4103369 - 04/27/05 05:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

In way of explaining the history associated with it. It's content would be based on the philosophy/spirituality contained within the bible. It could be taught without support, merely in an objective format. The difficulty lies in the course material and how it's viewed as to the justification of its historical significance. I don't know if that was clearer, let me know.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: daussaulit]
    #4104907 - 04/27/05 11:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If the majority of local taxpayers want their tax money to go for this purpose and they went about it in a democratic method, who freaking cares? If they wanted to teach Buddhism in a public classroom, thats fine. The Bible is probably the most read book in the world. Why not teach kids about it some? It doesn't mean you have to tell them that it's right, but you just instruct them that their is a book that Christiniaty is based on, and give them some instruction.

Sweden - If your study of the bible taught you this about Christiniaty, why do you have a problem with others tudying it?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: daussaulit]
    #4105530 - 04/28/05 02:07 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

just more evidence that the garbage right wants to turn our country into a theocracy


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Registered: 09/29/02
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4105651 - 04/28/05 02:42 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
just more evidence that the garbage right wants to turn our country into a theocracy




Some people think that theocracy is impossible in the U.S. Some people never realize that theocracy can be democratic. You may want to prepare yourself for attacks from such people.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4105829 - 04/28/05 04:43 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

heaven forbid that the local majority decides what their kids learn! The evil of it!


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: Ravus]
    #4105833 - 04/28/05 04:47 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

Do you advocate teaching the historical merit of all the other religious doctrines in conjunction to the bible as electives?




No, not all other religious doctrines, as there are probably hundreds of possible classes we'd have to teach in that case, but the major ones definitely. In an academic-minded school, a religious class would start off with the Bible and Christianity because that's the most widespread one in this nation, and then other religious classes like those teaching the history of Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and such would start popping up.

It's really the same with science classes. You start off with mainstream science like biology and chemistry, and then as students respond to those science classes you can add more theoretical and less known science topics like Quantum Physics and cosmology. If students hate science and don't take it then you don't add those, same with a Christianity class, in which a bad response will probably eliminate this course, and a good one will hopefully add the study of more philosophies to the school.

Under the understanding that any religious or philosophical classes would be completely optional and consenting, of course.




I agree with you almost 100%. My only comment on this is that, if someone wants the history of the bible they should go to church. Its basically a classroom where you learn as much as you can about Christianity. Im not Christiain (though I am a believer in a higher power), and I have learned plenty by attending different churches of different religions. There is a religious studies class at my college and I have no problem with that if someone wants to take it; however, its college not junior high or middle school. I dont think that religion should be brought up by schools at such a young age because you are essentially molding the childs mind. Let people decide for themselves what religion they want to study, and how to study it. Other than that, if it was implemented I agree with your way of teaching it as a Historical reference, not as a historical fact.


--------------------


There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4105855 - 04/28/05 05:18 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Giving kids the choice to CHOOSE (note ELECTIVE) to take classes that their parents want their tax dollars to fund, rather than letting the DoE decide what classes they must take is a BAD thing? are you freaking KIDDING me?


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: AaronEvil]
    #4105856 - 04/28/05 05:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AaronEvil said:
There is a religious studies class at my college and I have no problem with that if someone wants to take it; however, its college not junior high or middle school. I dont think that religion should be brought up by schools at such a young age because you are essentially molding the childs mind. Let people decide for themselves what religion they want to study, and how to study it.




Maybe they could offer it as an ELECTIVE. Oh, thats what they did.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: daussaulit]
    #4105948 - 04/28/05 08:02 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"Public schools teach religion, too-- not a formal, theistic religion, but a set of values and beliefs that constitute a religion in all but name. The present arrangements abridge the religious freedom of parents who do not accept the religion taught by the public schools yet are forced to pay to have their children indoctrinated with it, and to pay still more to have their children escape indoctrination." - Milton Friedman, Free To Choose, pg 164.

Baby Hitler once pointed out that "History is Religion" in a post. I thought about that and I tend to agree with him. My kids babysitter told me that all he learns about in his American history class is the Civil Rights movement. I read an article recently that stated that the most stressed event in teaching WWII is the American-Japanese internment camps. Many kids today cannot name one major battle in WWII, or even locate one on a globe, but they can tell you of how we locked up the Japanese.

WWII had a global impact, and it continues to effect the way the world has been shaped. Who makes these judgements? Isn't it a religion? Civil Rights is important, but should it be the dominant overriding theme of American history. Teachers are rejecting historical documents because of reference to God, and they denouce our founding fathers because of ties to slave ownership and the fact that they are all old dead white men.

What about Vietnam? Do they teach about Pol Pot and the holocaust in Indochina that happened after we pulled out? Nope. That never happened. Who cares what happened in Laos, Camboida and Vietnam, and who cares about the boat people buried in the South China Sea.

What about the concept of diversity? Henry Ford once said that you can get a model T in any color you want, as long as it it black. The current dogma on diversity accepts all views as long as they agree with the party line.

What about the environment and global warming? Lots of junk science that is represented as fact in our schools.

What about the book "My two mommies?". Should homosexuality be taught in schools? Should sex education be taught? Is tolerance the only important thing that we should impart in our children? The current religion is that any value judgement is wrong.

What about the concept of self esteem? Some schools are throwing out grades and merit based achievement because it "discriminates" against some students. Other schools are refusing to give a class rank. We are sending a message to kids that hard work and merit don't matter, the only important thing is that you feel good about yourself.

This is all religion in all but name. The government structures that brainwash our children do have an agenda, and it is an agenda that not everybody agrees with.

You will never be able to rid "religion" out of our schools.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: School board votes to add Bible elective [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4106013 - 04/28/05 09:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I never thought that I'd listen to Jesus, but I see how wrong I've been. Good point, EXCELLENT point, and kudos!


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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