Home | Community | Message Board


Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Edibles   Amazon Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1748772 - 07/25/03 05:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

We've had this debate before, and luvie feels that only conservatives are entitled to interpret what "general welfare" means.



Actually what I said was it doesn't say general welfare of the citizens, but it does say general welfare of the United States.

If you would take the time to read a bit, such as the Federalist papers, the founders speak of what they meant by it. I can assure you it wasn't hand outs to lazy fucks.

While you're at it, read them all. I won't call them a good read, but they are quite informative.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1748807 - 07/25/03 06:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I can assure you it wasn't hand outs to lazy fucks.


I agree, it's definitely not good for the general welfare of the United States to give hand outs to lazy fucks.  But handouts to people who just got laid off, or to people who are retarded, etc... well, that's another story.  :smirk: 


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (07/25/03 06:12 PM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1748812 - 07/25/03 06:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

As I said, read the Federalist papers.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1748933 - 07/25/03 06:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I haven't read all these replies to this most excellent post...I'm a little hurriedto throw my two cents in here...

Poverty in a modern society (like the USA), is a result of social engineering. NAIRU theory?

It's when the labour market gets too hot, then interest rates are cranked up to slow the economy, thus increasing unemployment. It is done to preserve the value of assets from inflation. (wage inflation mostly)

It is practised to a greater extent in Canada than USA, but every country employs some form of it.

It relegates a portion of society to poverty. A great man once said..."workers have no bargaining power when there are crowds of unemployed willing to work for less, rather than have nothing" or something to that effect.

Anyways, good post Alex123.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1749039 - 07/25/03 07:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
As I said, read the Federalist papers.
 


Ok, I read them.  And I found nothing supporting your argument that general welfare is not to be used for helping individuals.  The only thing I could find that came close to addressing this issue was under Federalist #30:  "Concerning the General Power of Taxation"

The following statement was made by Hamilton in defense of taxes (something that you are vehemently opposed to, except to support a very limited number of things):

"How is it possible that a government half supplied and always necessitous, can fulfill the purposes of its institution, can provide for the security, advance the prosperity, or support the reputation of the commonwealth? How can it ever possess either energy or stability, dignity or credit, confidence at home or respectability abroad? How can its administration be any thing else than a succession of expedients temporizing, impotent, disgraceful? How will it be able to avoid a frequent sacrifice of its engagements to immediate necessity? How can it undertake or execute any liberal or enlarged plans of public good?"

Now it's debatable what a "liberal or enlarged plan of public good" is, but I found nothing in the Federalist Papers saying welfare couldn't fall into this category.

Can you provide evidence to the contrary?  I can't.  :stoned: 


--------------------


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1749408 - 07/25/03 10:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Can you provide evidence to the contrary?  I can't.  :stoned: 




Crack out your nachos and DVDs.  You're in for a long wait. 


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1749428 - 07/25/03 10:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:grin: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Cornholio]
    #1751160 - 07/26/03 07:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'll find it but kudos for taking the time to look.

You read all those federalist papers? Didn't take you very long as there are dozens.

Pretty dry reading aren't they?

Keep in mind while I'm looking.... there was no welfare in the days it was written. Unless the writers had future sight, they couldn't have used the word welfare in the manner you'd like. Could they?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1751244 - 07/26/03 07:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i was about to say that.

and it's not as though they couldn't concieve the idea of welfare... as though it was some future technology yet to be invented.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: ]
    #1751465 - 07/26/03 09:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I always thought that welfare was basically needed because of the great depression... you know, when capitalism FAILED.

correct me if I'm wrong.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 17 years, 27 days
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1752084 - 07/27/03 01:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It relegates a portion of society to poverty. A great man once said..."workers have no bargaining power when there are crowds of unemployed willing to work for less, rather than have nothing" or something to that effect.




Bingo! That was exactly what I was trying to get across in a recent thread. I remain with open mind to hear a Capitalist apologist attempt a sincere address to this problem. So far stoicism or feigned obtuseness are all I've heard. If that's all they have, then maybe they should stop griping about "left-wing" alternatives.

btw, Who was the great man?


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 17 years, 27 days
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: shakta]
    #1752325 - 07/27/03 04:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Well, you just made the case for welfare reform. That is what everyone, besides most liberals wants. It should be a second chance, not a life long meal ticket.




I'm with you, I'm for reform, and I think there's a big need for it. But actually, a lot of posters here have spoken out against any type of government welfare, and they might say that the idea for reform is liberal.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1752700 - 07/27/03 11:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Keep in mind while I'm looking.... there was no welfare in the days it was written. Unless the writers had future sight, they couldn't have used the word welfare in the manner you'd like. Could they?



They used it in such a way that it could be interpreted to mean welfare as we know it today.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1752709 - 07/27/03 11:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i disagree.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: ]
    #1752889 - 07/27/03 02:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No one who shares your disagreement has made an effective case in court.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1752986 - 07/27/03 02:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Keep in mind while I'm looking.... there was no welfare in the days it was written. Unless the writers had future sight, they couldn't have used the word welfare in the manner you'd like. Could they?



They used it in such a way that it could be interpreted to mean welfare as we know it today.



Bullshit.

It's used quite plainly and simply.

You can't use a word today, and imply it will mean something totally different 200 years from now. Do you really think, even for an instant, that when the constitution was written the founding fathers, who prided themselves on independence, who left a country and fought a war for independence, and wanted the most minimum government possible, were thinking "lets use the word welfare here so that in a couple hundred years the government can take from the rich and give to the poor?"

Get real.

Do you think the word "gay" 200 years ago was implying what it's come to mean today?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1752988 - 07/27/03 02:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
No one who shares your disagreement has made an effective case in court.



I'm not aware of anyone even trying.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753021 - 07/27/03 03:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"lets use the word welfare here so that in a couple hundred years the government can take from the rich and give to the poor?"

That's your "interpretation" of what welfare is. Certainly got nothing to do with what welfare actually is.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: hongomon]
    #1753048 - 07/27/03 03:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hongomon writes:

Quote:

It relegates a portion of society to poverty. A great man once said..."workers have no bargaining power when there are crowds of unemployed willing to work for less, rather than have nothing" or something to that effect.




Bingo! That was exactly what I was trying to get across in a recent thread. I remain with open mind to hear a Capitalist apologist attempt a sincere address to this problem. So far stoicism or feigned obtuseness are all I've heard. If that's all they have, then maybe they should stop griping about "left-wing" alternatives.


Ah. You certainly are enamored of the phrase "feigned obtuseness", aren't you?

Is it not obtuse to presume that simply because there is more than one human on the planet, NO human has the right to live his life as he chooses? No one has ever been able to defend that premise logically, and no one ever will.

I don't often quote "great men", but since some here seem to set great store in quotes from un-named "great men" (appeal to anonymous authority), I guess no one will object if I do the same --

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all."

and

"Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not give a dime to a beggar. That is not the issue. The issue is whether you DO or do NOT have the right to exist WITHOUT giving him that dime."

Should I hold a contest to see who can guess the authors of the above statements?

As for workers having no bargaining power if there are crowds of workers willing to work for less, that is untrue. If this were really the case, no non-unionized company would ever pay their employees more than either minimum wage or union scale. In reality there are thousands of companies who routinely pay more. I know this is the case because I have worked for several myself.

Hongomon, your position seems to be that it is wrong for companies to offer employment to people on terms they would willingly (in many countries, even GLEEFULLY) accept -- such companies should offer employment only if they will do so under terms that "left-wingers" from the wealthiest country on the planet would accept. If they can't do so, it is better for them not to offer employment at all. Excuse me if I find this position a textbook example of "feigned obtuseness".

What is "stoic" about either accepting an offer of employment or rejecting it? What is "obtuse" about offering employment at the rate one is willing to pay?

As I have said in the past, you use words differently than most people do. Sometimes I really wish I had a secret "Libbie-speak" decoder ring.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753065 - 07/27/03 03:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The founding fathers worded the Constitution vaguely enough so that it could be reinterpreted with the changing times. Remember also when you talk about the right to keep and bear arms that back then "arms" meant rifles and muskets, not Uzis and M-16's.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Edibles   Amazon Scales

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Exploding the left’s red state myths
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Echro 3,989 65 02/16/14 04:23 AM
by starfire_xes
* myth of the media
( 1 2 3 all )
phi1618 3,786 55 04/29/04 07:31 PM
by DigitalDuality
* General Welfare
( 1 2 3 all )
luvdemshrooms 2,414 45 12/14/03 05:37 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* The Twelve Myths of Hunger
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
silversoul7 9,388 117 10/21/05 11:48 PM
by Unagipie
* Pure Capitalism
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Lallafa 9,877 76 12/26/01 01:30 AM
by Phred
* The Myth of the Kerry Calamity Evolving 319 0 10/27/04 10:03 PM
by Evolving
* Welfare to Workfare
( 1 2 3 all )
lysergic 2,970 58 10/21/03 01:07 PM
by Rono
* Welfare in tribal societies
( 1 2 all )
somebodyelse 4,050 36 06/27/03 04:35 PM
by Xlea321

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
10,995 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.033 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 17 queries.