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lysergic
Mycophile!
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I almost hurt my neck watching the point of my argument fly over alex's head. *stretcheS* all better now
Welfare recipients children ARE NOT IN DAYCARE RIGHT NOW. Thus, having welfare recipients have a daycare for the children of welfare recipients WOULD NOT TAKE JOBs. It would ADD jobs while ADDING "clients" to the market.
Also, it doesn't really matter what the people aer doing, as long as it's something. We could have them pick up trash along the side of the road, would you complain that is taking jobs away from prisoners? The point is, they aren't doing <b> ANYTHING </b> to earn their "keep" now, so any act we can fidn for them that contributes back to society as a whole, is better than nothing.
I realize that the concept of people having to work for things is a horrible one to liberal eliteist, like Alex, those poor people should just be given money that is taken forecfully from u, and how dare we suggest they work for it!
-------------------- In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen PsiloKitten said: Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.
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Starter
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
#2022557 - 10/19/03 11:57 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Alex is rightfully concerned about jobs taken from existant industry, but with what I have proposed that wouldn't happen, since none of it will impact on the private sector, it will not cut into jobs. It will actually create jobs in the longer term and benefit poor people. In fact, it will be of benefit to us all.
* Eco-tourism - habitat is preserved i.e. reefs so the hospitality industry keeps thumping.
* Fishing estuaries preserved because silting is reduced - sea food is a big earner and it's part of a healthy diet.
* Reduced salination.
* Land value improvement be it rural or for development real estate - Trees do improve landscape views and attract fauna ambience, i.e. song birds. People do pay more for that. Think of the stamp duty revenue on the sales.
* Timber to mill, esp. small business generation.
* Edible landscapes for the poor - Fruit & nut trees in commons (i.e. govt land between housing estates). The poor often can't afford the balanced diet they should get.
* Increased water quality by river bank and catchment planting.
* Cleaner air in city environments.
* Increased quality of life for all, rich & poor -- Green it up. The concrete world helps cause stress and stress plays a big role in disease & violence.
...and the list goes on.
Unless we preserve what we've got and generate industry for tomorrow -- in other words get sustainable -- we're screwed. Work for the dole should be part of it.
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Starter
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Xlea321]
#2022570 - 10/19/03 12:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: Why put everyone already doing conservation work out of a job?
In Oz, conservation work is mostly volunteer and they could do with the extra boots on the dirt. I agree with leaving existent private industry alone as putting in virtual "gulag workers" will cause more unemployment. It would also kill unions that protect worker rights, since an abused work-for-the-dole scheme would become a govt endorsed scab labour. Industrialists would greedily abuse that if given a chance. With unemployment rising as real jobs are destroyed, they'd have an army of work-for-the-dole slaves. I wouldn't be part of that. A fair days work for a fair days pay. That's why I said 2 days out of 5 for welfare folks on enviro work earlier in this thread.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Xlea321]
#2023015 - 10/19/03 03:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Your arguement would be more valid if there weren't things that should be done that aren't. The welfare recipients that would be working in childcare would mostly be supplemental staff in addition to the already existing childcare workers.
This way the job could be done better, and other things that are not being done would be. For example as it is now many children in childcare get fed, their asses wiped and maybe entertained with television or if they're lucky having a book read to them. If more people came in the children could be given more personal attention, perhaps even supplemental education. Most people on welfare know the alphabet, and can add subtract multiply and divide.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Starter
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2023930 - 10/19/03 09:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Btw, why has this thread got bent out of whack over child care? That's an industry with a lot of dollars in it. Putting cheap workers into that will cause an uproar. I imagine the view that child care takes no skill is a very blokey one, so any welfare sort will do? Not quite.
Seriously, as long as work-for-the-dole is projected as some sort of money saving scheme for the benefit of the few, i.e. the end of maternity leave for women, it's not going to get off the ground.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Starter]
#2024608 - 10/20/03 03:23 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Childcare is just an example. Of course the skilled workers won't be replaced. Like I said: supplemental assistance.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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lysergic
Mycophile!
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Starter]
#2024620 - 10/20/03 03:44 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Starter said: Btw, why has this thread got bent out of whack over child care? That's an industry with a lot of dollars in it. Putting cheap workers into that will cause an uproar. I imagine the view that child care takes no skill is a very blokey one, so any welfare sort will do? Not quite.
Seriously, as long as work-for-the-dole is projected as some sort of money saving scheme for the benefit of the few, i.e. the end of maternity leave for women, it's not going to get off the ground.
Childcare was just a singular example.
Working for the dole, guvnah, isn't a "scheme" to SAVE money. The theory that I proposed will pay the same benefits, it will just require peple to work for them. The end of materinity leave? Are you a moron? Things like that are paid for by the company that the lady works for, just like unemployment. I think that a larger number of people in here need to grasp exactly what welfare is. It isn't unemployment benefits, per se, since a company pays into that a specific amount per employee. Welfare is free food stamps, reduced housing, and checks being sent out to people who are not recieving unemployment assistance.
Another issue, I think that people that live in housing projects that are "free"(A gross misnomer, since it's just the non-welfare-class that has to pay for them) should be required to do all building maintenence. Welfare recipients would train the residents (only specific ones, with an aptitude or an interest) in such things as basic plumbing, electricity, upkeep and repair of the facilities. Thus, if the complex goes to shit, it's only the fault of the people living there. And again, people recieving fre things would actually *gasp* have to earn them!
-------------------- In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen PsiloKitten said: Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.
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lysergic
Mycophile!
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Starter]
#2024622 - 10/20/03 03:45 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Starter said:
Quote:
Alex123 said: Why put everyone already doing conservation work out of a job?
In Oz, conservation work is mostly volunteer and they could do with the extra boots on the dirt.
What is "OZ"? Thanks.
-------------------- In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen PsiloKitten said: Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.
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Starter
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
#2024639 - 10/20/03 04:12 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oz is short for Oz-tralia a.k.a Australia. The colloquialism no doubt comes from the "strine" (nasal like accent) when "Australia" is pronounced by most Australians. I do have my country of location given.
As for your grasp of welfare and maternity leave ect, it's obviously different to how it is here.
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Xlea321
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2025099 - 10/20/03 10:21 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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This way the job could be done better, and other things that are not being done would be. For example as it is now many children in childcare get fed, their asses wiped and maybe entertained with television or if they're lucky having a book read to them. If more people came in the children could be given more personal attention, perhaps even supplemental education. Most people on welfare know the alphabet, and can add subtract multiply and divide. Fair enough. So why not create more real childcare jobs and pay people a living wage to do that job? Why flood the market with untrained people and drive down wages for everyone else? The answer is always to create proper jobs - putting what are in effect slaves to work for nothing helps no-one. Welfare isn't charity. We are paying them so the job market isn't flooded with thousands of people who will work for nothing. Look at your own job - if 10,000 people start doing your job for a tenth of your salary what do you think will happen to your salary?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
#2025105 - 10/20/03 10:26 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Welfare recipients would train the residents (only specific ones, with an aptitude or an interest) in such things as basic plumbing, electricity, upkeep and repair of the facilities. Be serious. I want electrics done by professional highly qualified people who work to industry standards who can be sued for compensation when your house burns down for christs sake. I do not want my family surrounded by electrics done by a guy going "The guy on welfare said join the red wire to the green one..." That's how fires start.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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st0nedphucker
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Xlea321]
#2025119 - 10/20/03 10:34 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fair enough. So why not create more real childcare jobs and pay people a living wage to do that job? Why flood the market with untrained people and drive down wages for everyone else? The answer is always to create proper jobs - putting what are in effect slaves to work for nothing helps no-one.
Welfare isn't charity. We are paying them so the job market isn't flooded with thousands of people who will work for nothing. Look at your own job - if 10,000 people start doing your job for a tenth of your salary what do you think will happen to your salary?
You're getting to caught up in one point again, I agree with you (although this is starting to tie-in to the minimum wage thread). But one would think there could never be too many conservationists considering the rate at which new house, roads, commercial developments are being built. You walk down one of our wonderful streets and tell me we don't need more people collecting rubbish or recycling etc
-------------------- The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.
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Xlea321
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So hire someone to do the job and pay him a living wage.
Simple.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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st0nedphucker
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Xlea321]
#2025135 - 10/20/03 10:40 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I agree with you here. The work allocated to claimants would have to be suitable. Obviously only a small percentage of them would be suitable for a job in childcare or many others areas.
Quote:
I want electrics done by professional highly qualified people who work to industry standards who can be sued for compensation when your house burns down for christs sake.
Thats just dramatic as usual... Plus the Government/Council would be liable if it did indeed burn down your house or injure/kill a member of your family.
-------------------- The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.
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lysergic
Mycophile!
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Xlea321]
#2025149 - 10/20/03 10:46 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: Welfare recipients would train the residents (only specific ones, with an aptitude or an interest) in such things as basic plumbing, electricity, upkeep and repair of the facilities.
Be serious. I want electrics done by professional highly qualified people who work to industry standards who can be sued for compensation when your house burns down for christs sake. I do not want my family surrounded by electrics done by a guy going "The guy on welfare said join the red wire to the green one..."
That's how fires start.
Unless you live in a housing project, you won't have to worry about it. Obviously the housing projects wouldn't be BUILD by the intended recipients, it would ony be MAINTAINED. Things that require a specialist would get a specialist. I'm sure that if you built a 500 family housing project, you could find 5 people that were proficient at basic maintenance.
-------------------- In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen PsiloKitten said: Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.
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Xlea321
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I agree with you here. The work allocated to claimants would have to be suitable.
What work could be done that you couldn't hire a person to do and pay them a living wage? If a job needs doing it needs doing right?
Thats just dramatic as usual
Nothing dramatic about it. Hire unqualified, untrained people to do the electrics on your house and see what happens.
Plus the Government/Council would be liable if it did indeed burn down your house or injure/kill a member of your family.
So the taxpayer not only pays for the welfare, he also ends up paying for every catastrophe this lunatic policy will cause? Sounds great. Where do I sign up?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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st0nedphucker
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: lysergic]
#2025159 - 10/20/03 10:48 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
So hire someone to do the job and pay him a living wage.
Simple.
Im still not getting this doesn't hiring mean employing.....
Perhaps you could elaborate.
-------------------- The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.
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lysergic
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Re: Welfare to Workfare [Re: Xlea321]
#2025163 - 10/20/03 10:49 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: This way the job could be done better, and other things that are not being done would be. For example as it is now many children in childcare get fed, their asses wiped and maybe entertained with television or if they're lucky having a book read to them. If more people came in the children could be given more personal attention, perhaps even supplemental education. Most people on welfare know the alphabet, and can add subtract multiply and divide.
Fair enough. So why not create more real childcare jobs and pay people a living wage to do that job? Why flood the market with untrained people and drive down wages for everyone else? The answer is always to create proper jobs - putting what are in effect slaves to work for nothing helps no-one.
Welfare isn't charity. We are paying them so the job market isn't flooded with thousands of people who will work for nothing. Look at your own job - if 10,000 people start doing your job for a tenth of your salary what do you think will happen to your salary?
Allright then, i'll take awayeverything nice I was trying to do by giving them, in this situation somewhat cushy jobs. IF you are on welfare, you wake up at 0400, drop you rkids off at the welfare run daycare center, and report to trash pickup. I'm sure that the inmates won't complain that other peopel are picking trash p off of the streets?
-------------------- In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen PsiloKitten said: Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.
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st0nedphucker
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Quote:
What work could be done that you couldn't hire a person to do and pay them a living wage? If a job needs doing it needs doing right?
See my above post
Quote:
Nothing dramatic about it. Hire unqualified, untrained people to do the electrics on your house and see what happens.
I've done electrics in my house countless and im neither trained nor professional im sure many people unertake eletrical, building and even plumbing tasks in their houses every now again... Unless everyone here is middleclass (which I assume, you must be.) and hires out a professional, sadly the majority of the population aren't.
Quote:
So the taxpayer not only pays for the welfare, he also ends up paying for every catastrophe this lunatic policy will cause? Sounds great. Where do I sign up?
You have taken one point from this whole debate and as usual gone galloping off on a complete tangent. I didn't even bring up this whole bloody electrician fiasco.... I believe conservation work is the best suggestion.
-------------------- The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.
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lysergic
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Ok, yes, back to conservation work. The 2 jobs available would be
1) Daycare ASSISTANT - You would work at a registered daycare clinic providing daycare for welfare recipients children
2) Conservation worker. - This is everything from shoveling old ladies sidewalks to planting trees. The jobs that ehy would do are jobs that are not being done now.
-------------------- In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen PsiloKitten said: Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.
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