Home | Community | Message Board


Mushrooms.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale

Jump to first unread post. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1753070 - 07/27/03 03:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

1. JSM
2. AR


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1753076 - 07/27/03 03:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Weak.

Arms still means arms despite there being different types of arms.

Press still means press despite there being different types of press.

Welfare never meant payments / income redistribution when the writers created the constitution.

Your arguement is more than just lame.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753118 - 07/27/03 03:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

One right, one wrong.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDeepDish
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 55
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753121 - 07/27/03 03:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And who are you to say that having a social welfare program isn't in the best interest of the United States. Of course when the founding fathers wrote the constitution, their idea of general welfare for the United states was not what we think it today. The definition they were probably using was;

A. Health, happiness, and good fortune; well-being.
Prosperity.

So we know that constitution says:

1. Congress has the power to levy taxes on income
2. Congress can provide for the welfare (definition A) of the United States.

Therefore, if at some point congress decided that it was in the United States well being to have a social welfare program, and they wanted to use 1% of the taxes they collected to support this program it would hardly be unconstitutional. At some point Congress did decide to enact this policy, and they did so with a large amount of information that normal people don't have access too (poverty studies, crime statistics, ect). You have accused a number of post here of being left wing conspiracy theories (WMD, 9-11 conspiracies), don't mistake me, on most of them I agree with you, but the "Welfare is a handout to lazy fucks" statment seems like a classic right wing conspiracy. It sounds as if our congressmen sit around saying "Well how should we spend our taxes this year", "Gee maybe we should just hand money out to some lazy fucks, that sounds like a good idea."

To end this, is one example of how a social welfare progam, can improve the general welfare of the United States as a whole. If you look up crime statistics, you will notice the trend that the crime rate is directly proportional to the economy of the country and that most people committing crimes are the poor, or drug users. Welfare, plays in important role by providing needy people, with the means to survive without turning to crime. If you don't believe me, look at any country with a strong social welfare program, crime in Sweden is almost non-existant. I think 1% of your yearly wage is a small price to pay.





Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Phred]
    #1753138 - 07/27/03 04:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Crap.....
1 is of course FB


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DeepDish]
    #1753156 - 07/27/03 04:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And who are you to say that having a social welfare program isn't in the best interest of the United States.



I'm someone who believes we should follow the 10th amendment.


General welfare = well being of the country. If they had meant the people, they would have said the people. After all it's not as if they didn't use those words when that was what they meant.


Quote:

Therefore, if at some point congress decided that it was in the United States well being to have a social welfare program, and they wanted to use 1% of the taxes they collected to support this program it would hardly be unconstitutional.



Read the 10th amendment and then try again.


Quote:

I think 1% of your yearly wage is a small price to pay.


Good, then you pay my 1% back to me.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753178 - 07/27/03 04:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Press still means press despite there being different types of press.



Actually, I believe that a while back, the FCC decided that freedom of speech did not apply to radio or TV.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1753204 - 07/27/03 04:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

First, it's not up th the FCC to define what press means. It's up to the legislature and the Supreme Court.

Now, here are the way the writers looked at the term "general welfare".....

The Framers specifically on public charity:

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." - James Madison criticizing an attempt to grant public monies for charitable means, 1794


The Framers Speak:
Long has it been acknowledged that Congress's powers were limited as described above by Article I, Section 8. Here the framers acknowledge this Section as a limiting factor, proving that today's misinterpretations, which allow full justification for practically anything Congress desires to do under the guise of this often misread and forgotten section, are both erronious and absurdly illogical.

Proof of intentional and strict limitations on the authority and power of Congress:
"[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any." - James Madison, Federalist 14

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce." - James Madison, Federalist 45

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but
an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

Note the reference to "General Welfare." Please do not confuse this with "social welfare" as we know it today, or public charity. The two are distinctly different as will be addressed later in detail

"The Constitution allows only the means which are ?necessary,? not those which are merely ?convenient,? for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed" - Thomas Jefferson, 1791

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson, 1798

There we have it! Proof that both the Father of the Constitution and unquestionably our nation's foremost expert on the Constitution, James Madison, AND the Father of American Independence, Thomas Jefferson, specifically acknowledging Congressional powers to be strictly limited and defined - quite a long shot from today!
One distinction must be noted though. Jefferson and Madison were by no means representative of the opinions of all the framers. They were both strict constitutionalists representative of those very fearful of the strength of the new government. For that reason I turn to the other side most represented in Alexander Hamilton - one that believed in a looser interpretation.

"This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

Here Hamilton specifically acknowledges that all congressional powers are enumerated (necessary and proper relationships included as such an enumeration). Hamilton notes that the existance of these enumerations alone makes the notion that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires for if such broad congressional power was intended, specifications of powers (the 18 enumerated powers) would be useless.

"No legislative act ? contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 78

This quotation furthers the above statement by acknowledging legislation contrary to the Constitution to be unconstitutional. Since powers of Congress are enumerated and done so binding Congress to these powers alone (necessary and proper related powers included), a power outside of these enumeration without reasonable relation must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore unconstitutional.

Edit: forgot the link
Link



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/27/03 04:28 PM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753208 - 07/27/03 04:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Arms still means arms despite there being different types of arms.

But you're convinced that a "well-regulated militia" actually meant "civilians"?

Which "well-regulated militia" do you belong to?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDeepDish
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 55
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753215 - 07/27/03 04:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

General welfare = well being of the country. If they had meant the people, they would have said the people. After all it's not as if they didn't use those words when that was what they meant.




The country is the people, is it not. Any country is defined by the people who live in it, and what is in the best interests for the majority of the people is also that of the country. Hence the founding fathers decision to make our country a democracy. If you would care to show how something could be done for the well being of the country and not for the welfare of the people in turn, I will be most impressed.




Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753233 - 07/27/03 04:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Arms still means arms despite there being different types of arms.

But you're convinced that a "well-regulated militia" actually meant "civilians"?

Which "well-regulated militia" do you belong to?



Well Alpo, we've shown you the error of your thinking on this many times, but to humor you....

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ? and include all men capable of bearing arms." - Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169

"What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty." - Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress at 750 (August 17, 1789)

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." - George Mason, 3 Elliott, Debates at 425-426


I don't know why I bother seeing as this has been covered in several threads before this which it appears you haven't read.

Please read them now.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: DeepDish]
    #1753242 - 07/27/03 04:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Read the above quotes. I see to need to rephrase the words of the founding fathers themselves. I couldn't possibly do them the justice they so richly deserve.

Your wishing the constitution means what you'd like it to mean is pointless. It does not and the writers themselves say so with their written words.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753247 - 07/27/03 04:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And I've demolished that argument many times too luv. The only thing that matters is what the second amendment actually said. It says "well-regulated militia".

I repeat, what "well-regulated militia" do you belong to?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753255 - 07/27/03 04:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You've demolished nothing but your credibility on this issue.

If I do or do not belong doesn't matter.

So say the writers of the constitution.

If you don't like the way they phrased it, and that they included the right, take it up with them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753256 - 07/27/03 04:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Your wishing the constitution means what you'd like it to mean is pointless. It does not and the writers themselves say so with their written words.

Once again luv, address what the amendments actually say. Not someones interpretation of what they say. Address the reality, not fantasy.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753260 - 07/27/03 04:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Those quotes were from the writers, who better to say what they meant?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753266 - 07/27/03 04:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The amendments themselves.

They took great care in how they phrased them. You can't say "Well one guy involved in the writing of them said this, so that must be what they meant".

It doesn't work like that.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753269 - 07/27/03 04:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So you know better than the writers?

Gosh... you're awesome.

:lol:

A legend in your own mind.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1753275 - 07/27/03 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So you're saying we should pay no attention to the amendments themselves but what some guy said in the federalist papers? Are you serious?

Read what the amendments said. Seems obvious enough.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A few "welfare" myths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753282 - 07/27/03 04:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Using the language of the day , they are obvious enough.

Too bad you seem unable to do so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Exploding the left’s red state myths
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Echro 3,989 65 02/16/14 04:23 AM
by starfire_xes
* myth of the media
( 1 2 3 all )
phi1618 3,785 55 04/29/04 07:31 PM
by DigitalDuality
* General Welfare
( 1 2 3 all )
luvdemshrooms 2,413 45 12/14/03 05:37 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* The Twelve Myths of Hunger
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
silversoul7 9,358 117 10/21/05 11:48 PM
by Unagipie
* Pure Capitalism
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Lallafa 9,877 76 12/26/01 01:30 AM
by Phred
* The Myth of the Kerry Calamity Evolving 319 0 10/27/04 10:03 PM
by Evolving
* Welfare to Workfare
( 1 2 3 all )
lysergic 2,969 58 10/21/03 01:07 PM
by Rono
* Welfare in tribal societies
( 1 2 all )
somebodyelse 4,050 36 06/27/03 04:35 PM
by Xlea321

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
10,991 topic views. 1 members, 0 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
MRCA Tyroler Gluckspilze
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.038 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.