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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Posts: 22,653
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Being Good
    #334181 - 06/04/01 05:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This thread will appeal to the large population of non-Christian members of the board.

To be good or to not, that is the question set before us tonight, Shroomerites. If you asked most people whether they are decent or rotten human beings, most would say that they consider themselves benevolant at worst. Yet, this earth is coroded with people who are robbing, cheating, lying, stealing, and killing their way through life. When do these people decide that they are going to be crooks?

Maybe, it's not a decision, but rather a gradual decline from their youth. As an evil man gets older, the consequences for being bad disappears. When he was younger, if he called his mother a cunt, Dad would kick the living shit out of him. Now, that he is mature, for some reason his girlfriend gets aroused by the term. If, in the heat of childhood anger, he had punched his brother in the mouth, Mom would have chased him around with a spoon. Yet, last weekend at the bar, he broke a beer bottle over an antagonist's head, and was rewarded with a complimentary round. Of course, had the bartender thought there might be any policemen around, he probably would have kicked our subject out, for fear of looking bad in front of a trained consequence provider.

So, are we nothing more than a bunch of wild animals kept from being good by a lifetime of negative reinforcement? No, it's deeper than that. Along with the conditioning that negative reinforcement provides, we are also given reality from our parents and other influences. When we start out as kid. reality is spoonfed to us. "Our country is the greatest country in the world." That one tends to stick. "God is in the sky, watching you, and when you fuck up, he'll know it and hold it against you for eternity, unless you apologize." This reality tends to wear off after a while, but the spiritual part of it can stick. Even after, one releases the shards of Christianity, he is compelled to do good because it's RIGHT.

All of us know that bad people are out there. That's why we have a police department. That's why we have car alarms. That's why we tell our children not to talk to strangers. That's why we have prisons jam-packed with evil scum.

So, people who go bad could include people who were raised by those who did not care about right or wrong, were unskilled in delpegating negative reinforcement; were not religious, or any combination of the above. That is assuming that people aren't born bad, which is a possibility that should be addressed.

Socrates would also argue that there is another reason for people to go bad. That reason would be intelligence, or the lack there of. He said that any intelligent person would choose to be good over being evil. The idea is that if a person contributes to society in a positive way, it can only benefit him. Other good people would flock to him. People would trust him, like him, and have no reason to cause him harm. This security would surely make anyone with half a brain choose good over evil.

This is all assuming that people are solely products of their environment and neither good nor evil is inherited. Because there is no substantial evidence to whether behavior is determined by genetics, heredity, or both, we must allow the possibility that peoplle are born either bad or good. I tend to think that behavior is learned, but there is a large school of thought to the contrary.







--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineDeckard
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Re: Being Good [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #334617 - 06/05/01 12:25 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think a lot of the evil out there has to do with the selfishness that we are raised with. In most of the societies existing today we are taught you have to go out and take whats yours. With the competition that abounds all through life lots of people decide to win the easy way, usually the "bad" way. For real evil people like serial killers the selfishness manifests itself in chopping people up for fun. Your buddy that likes stealing a street sign here and a pager there probably likes the rush of stealing something more then the actual item he took. Either way its the search for something good for themselves and disregard to other people's feelings.

Now how they arrived at these points are different things. As humans we are kinda tough to crack, I don't think there is any single cause for evil. Someone might be predisposed like a male with an extra Y chromosome (this may or may not be true). Someone might have had bad experiences as a child and throughout their lives. Someone may have just snapped and decided to start being a dick.

It just seems to me that most people who are on the wrong path continue to stay on the wrong path. You may have noticed it with people you grew up with. Kids who were assertive when they were very young tended to take on more bully-like attributes. Maybe this would continue through highschool and eventually they would wind up like prison (or at least aren't the greatest people in the world you've ever met). I've seen it more then once. I've also seen people realize they were wrong, but usually it takes a life changing type situation to reverse the course they were on.

Part of the problem is that people who like to talk about this type of stuff aren't "bad" people. Its a bunch of outsiders looking in. People trying to find the single cause, which probably doesn't exist. I'd venture to guess that if you asked a car theif why he stole a car, he'd say it was easy, he thought he wouldn't get caught. Just like a hardcore drug addict once you start going down the wrong path its real hard to get back.

I guess to stop the evil from being in the world you'd have to convince people to care about eachother more then they care about themselves. It seems really hard to do that though. In all levels of society from poor to rich in all races there are people just out there for themselves looking out for #1 all the time. I really don't think anything will fix this...



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InvisibleJenny
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Re: Being Good [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #334639 - 06/05/01 12:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Our culture is getting smarter and smarter knowledge wise, but i think the youths exposed to so much violence, drugs, hate, and don't get enough love, face a struggle to find their place in society, and those that aren't taught to value their education or simply don't, obviously have a higher chance of becoming "bad." Although theres a lot of dumbasses on this board, reading posts, theres so many smart people who see the world how it is (IMO) and simply are seen as sadamistic.

teenage boys loaded with energy and hormones are more wilder, whether theyre good or not, but everyone can agree even an evil teenager will eventually mature into a calmer, more superficial and wiser adult.

as the circle of evolution continues, no religious or political party will ever be left undebated or agreed on, not every neighbor will be peaceful to the next, no crime will be not committed.

our race has evolved into one that most people that are less spiritual and more "realistic" are indeed selfish. They value their life, and most humans are greedy and think little of others, and value their lamentable lives a great deal, as do i. I care for others, but i'm not sacrificial in the least.

I personally didn't do well in school, not to say i didn't enjoy learning some things, but i was too wild to take time and do my homework, study, etc. and i was a drug user.

if you ever watch the discovery channel they show real shows about murderers, the criminal mind, etc. And i think some of those illnesses are genetic, but so rare.

I've been fortunate to be raised in a small town with a good school system, although i always hated it, but if you go to the town next to ours, its full of burn outs, and the school district and poor. They talk different. For the most part they're hicks/burnouts who you know aren't going anywhere, but i think conditions like that they are raised in, with low-income alcoholic parents not to mention the environment of their school, increases their chances of becoming rebellious and dropping out of school at a young age only to work low income jobs like their parents, and the cycle continues.

Thats just an example of the type of person who may be in prison for a murder they committed, but some weren't raised with love/care as others were.

our race is so large now that we're going to see a lot of different people, from the religious/ignorant ones to the dirty trailer park criminals that weren't given benefits like us.

a lot of americans are raised with too many comforts that it gets them depressed and they don't appreciate all their things that third world countries have never had the priviledge to experience.

"people gone bad" are either
a) the people that haven't had certain priviledges
b) the ones that genetically have a criminal mind
c) those that make the mistake of acting impulsively and not using good decision making tactics.

this is all in my opinion, so don't be offended if you don't agree, i dont' mean to offend anyone.

alright i'll shut up now



--------------------

Mindfulness is the aware, balanced acceptance of the present experience.
It isn't more complicated than that.
It is opening to or recieving the present moment, pleasant or unpleasant, just as it is,
without either clinging to it or rejecting it.


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OfflineChonger
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Registered: 09/30/00
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Re: Being Good [Re: Jenny]
    #335223 - 06/05/01 03:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Good thread.
One thing that was on my mind throughout the whole thing was what we define as good and bad.
Civilisations are created by people, and innevitably people have different opinions and views on everything. This causes conflicts which are the very nature of anything that was ever done that was considered wrong.
At one point in time, there must have been a point at which everybody was good. But then, there was a conflict of opinions, and this caused "bad" emotions such as hatred.
We all know the feeling of hating someone for a particular reason, but does this make us bad people, seriously?
Imagine the cause of that hatred became so bad that you became violent, like i'm sure a lot of us do sometimes.
I think what I'm trying to get at, is that anything that is considered bad, is *usually* caused by our living environments. True that kids raised by crack smoking burnouts may also turn out bad, but not necessarily.

I cant be bothered saying anything else, i'm a bad person, what can I say?



Its in your heart, its in your art, your beauty.
Even in this world of lies, theres purity.


--------------------
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than have a frontal lobotomy


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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
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Re: Being Good [Re: Chonger]
    #335853 - 06/06/01 04:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think good and bad tendencies are learned for the most part, but there is something *in* humans that makes them *want* for lack of a better word to do bad, otherwise where did we learn it?
But also people, just son't give a fuck anymore, and kids learn that it's cool to *not* give a fuck, but this is getting a little too deep for me, but I suggest posting a poll about weater "evil etc. is learned, inheirited, desird etc.

How are you gentlemen?
All your base are belong to us !!
Take off every 'zig' ...for great justice


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Being Good [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #335933 - 06/06/01 08:28 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm bad. I do bad things. I'm good. I do good things. It's this way with everybody. One thought here... take for example the raving psychotic alley bum stinking of urine and cheap booze... bad? Sure, of course bad: just look at him. Look at him. Now let's back the camera out into a larger scene... keep going... keep going... keep going... Look at the BIG picture. He doesn't look so bad anymore, just a infintesimal speck on a Big Blue Marble. BUTT!!! If he's in your FACE... Goddamn! Get the fuck away from me motherfucker!

I'd agree with everyone about why he's bad. It's because our culture & society (a.k.a. our morals, values, and beliefs) has created him - made him what he is and made a place for him to live.

On that note... I'm thinking the number is something like, umm, we're building 1000 new prison beds each week (I hope I'm not grossly mistaken) so here it is - case in point - our culture & society is creating a world. A world that demands the creation of prisoners (a.k.a. bad people). My (I think our) conclusion is bad people are made bad.

Have you ever looked upon a newborn baby child?

Get to the Heart of Soul


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[red]0011 0001 0010 1111 0011 0000[/red]


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Being Good [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #336077 - 06/06/01 12:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

AHIMSA
(hippocrates said "first, do no harm")
practice grandmotherly kindness...



--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflinePhyl
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Re: Being Good [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #336792 - 06/07/01 07:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Nothing is nescesarilly good or bad in it's own right. It all comes down to the intent and perception.

I don't believe there are 'good' and 'bad' people. These are labels that are used by socity to fit people into groups, and only serve to make people feel better about themselves (No matter how 'bad' you think you are, you can always find someone worse). In general if you conform to the morals and standards of society then you are good, but if you don't then you are bad.





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InvisibleKid
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Re: Being Good [Re: Phyl]
    #336841 - 06/07/01 09:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> Nothing is nescesarilly good or bad in it's own right. It all comes down to the intent and perception.

I tend to agree with this view more, but I also wonder whether or not there is *some* universal definition of "good" or "bad" (which humans may or may not be able to percieve).

Now in my usual style I'm going to reply to some statements I found interesting.

> Socrates would also argue that there is another reason for people to go bad. That reason would be intelligence, or the lack there of. He said that any intelligent person would choose to be good over being evil. The idea is that if a person contributes to society in a positive way, it can only benefit him. Other good people would flock to him. People would trust him, like him, and have no reason to cause him harm. This security would surely make anyone with half a brain choose good over evil.

Remember that he also said that nobody ever does something they consider "wrong" on purpose. I think it's pretty easy to dispell this though. Take my favorite example: the psychopath. A psychopath will consistently commit criminal (or destructive acts) without any concern of being caught. Upon detection the psychopath admits that he has done "wrong", typically promises to reform himself, shows remarkable insight into why and how he has harmed people and then is released to continue along the same path. Psychopaths can be remarkably rational, intelligent people and do well in school but absolutely fail at following a life plan. They haphazardly crash through life in conflict with everybody. No wonder Cleckley described it as a "mask of sanity"...

> For real evil people like serial killers the selfishness manifests itself in chopping people up for fun.

Serial killers don't start out as sadistic usually. Serial killers typically start out manifesting their selfish criminal acts as a sex crime (they want someone who will do anything for them, or they want control). Some serial killers are simply motivated by extreme anger, others by excitement, and yes some by sadism.

> Part of the problem is that people who like to talk about this type of stuff aren't "bad" people.

Maybe because "bad" people don't think what they're doing is bad. But seriously, you're wrong. Serial killers usually talk about what led them to their path of killing. Ted Bundy consulted with Robert Keppel on the Green River killer case.

> if you ever watch the discovery channel they show real shows about murderers, the criminal mind, etc. And i think some of those illnesses are genetic, but so rare.

I know a forensic psychiatrist and I've read quite a few books about criminology and especially criminal homicide. I also happen to know people who commit criminal acts. There's no obvious differences (personality, intelligence, organic) between the criminal and non-criminal mind.

> "people gone bad" are either... b) the ones that genetically have a criminal mind

Again, no such thing.

> I'd agree with everyone about why he's bad.

Because "bad" is defined by the majority, not by the single extremist (eg// if Tim McVeigh's view of "good" was the universal "good" then we'd all be doing "bad", but how can we allow ourselves to believe that we're doing bad when our emotions give us contrary information?)

> In general if you conform to the morals and standards of society then you are good, but if you don't then you are bad.

Exactly, it's just language use. If you don't conform to the lexicon, syntax and phonology of those around you, then you don't speak the same language. Morality is just a different type of language.



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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Being Good [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #337371 - 06/07/01 10:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

silence the ticker-tape matter babble and feel with your body more. exist in feeling. the highest level of consciousness is like feeling, it's feeling-sensation consciousness. it's a body consciousness as well as conceptual consciousness. you can address yourself to this awareness, keep it in mind, conceptually if not heartwise, and try to keep your body in a condition of the highest possibility of awareness. if you can focus your energy through your body, and find peace through your body, and let consciousness come through in complete relaxation centered through your body, you can't go wrong. your thoughts are no longer possessions, thoughts that define "me" and thoughts that define "not me". there are no longer "good" thoughts vs. "bad" thoughts, just thoughts. they come and go. they're all an extension of a peace which is a level deeper than particulars and generalizations, morality/ideas about what's right/wrong, exc.

beware of philosophy, religion, aristotelian logic, things that sound good. it all sounds good if you look at it the right way... all cultures, lifestyles, exc.... sound good or bad if you look at it the right way. our culture sure has been complicated by the exploitation of the rational mind. have you ever considered prayer, meditation, or any exercise that simplifies the mind, brings it to one-pointedness, eliminates all that eternity of thought/dualisms and experience clarity? it's nice to take a break from all of one's god-like creations and tune in.


just another insane, inane hopeless religious fanatic nutcase flubbering idiot savant lsd casuality! repent! repent! floss often!


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Being Good [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #338150 - 06/11/01 07:53 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I like what you said CosmicJoke, as in saying to oneself as a reminder that I am once again in a long drawn out conversation with myself and I think it would be a good idea to stop talking inside about all this useless crap or I might never stop talking inside to myself about me me me for my entire life! *gaaaassssppp*

My reason for not watching TV today is: I think the powers that be are going to (YOU CHOOSE A VERB) the bomb kid today. I don't want any part of it!

Get to the Heart of Soul


--------------------
[red]0011 0001 0010 1111 0011 0000[/red]


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Being Good [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #730122 - 07/07/02 09:40 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know if you are still around these parts but that remains good advice.

However difficult to accomplish


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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