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Offlinetregar
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HPBCD DMT very bioavailable sublingually under tongue, combo with tetrahydroharmine, Ayahuasca * 3
    #27278392 - 04/22/21 07:51 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)
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HPBCD complexed DMT made very bioavailable sublingually under tongue, combo with tetrahydroharmine, Ayahuasca, 2 minute formed alternative to fumarate salt.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861&p=3

Part 1: HPBCD complexed DMT experimental dosage, effects & duration
Part 2: receptorome chart & explanation
Part 3: Tetrahydroharmine (THH) effects
Part 4: Tetrahydroharmine receptorome similarities to mescaline; potentiates cactus & safety note
Part 5: chemist Patrick Arnold's HPBCD prohormones & bloodwork studies
part 6: Dr. Narang: "with sublingual" or "under the tongue" better than buccal, gingival & palatal
part 7: a little bit on my 70 Ayahuasca experiences, doses & visions
part 8: New research: Morning glory contains 5 stimulating LSD-like drugs, soluble only in wine/alcohol, only sparingly soluble in water.
part 9: 20 minute visionary visit from a dead Aztec Shaman

Latest findings:

part 10: update 5-12-21 see post #25, ORAL AYAHUASCA REPORT: 70mg DMT complexed to 490mg HPBCD in 10 drops very hot water formed clear 0.500ml solution after 2 minutes of kneading/mashing on a spoon: clear solution mixed into 2oz hot water solution of 200mg harmine + 250mg THH resulted in +5 Shulgin scale Shocked experience IDENTICAL to 30 grams potent Hawaiian psychotria brew (Having taken 30 to 40 grams of Hawaiian psychotria with Caapi over 70 times over a period of many years).

70mg HPBCD DMT absorbed several factors better than oral freebase DMT or DMT salts (all were mild +3 Sad experiences in a dozen trials, due to poor oral body absorption). The HPBCD DMT out performed and absorbed better than the dozen DMT salt experiments (70 to 120mg) I performed years ago. The results are similar to several papers I have read in which HPBCD was used to enhance the absorption of oral pharmaceuticals over their normal oral absorption by many factors.

Example: HPBCD improves oral absorption profile for Ofloxacin, a second generation fluroquinolones by 54 to 89 percent.Thumbs up

part 11: 60mg DMT complexed to 420mg HPBCD with 10 drops very hot water on a spoon with 2 minutes of mashing & stirring:

PHENOMENAL strength, active for 90 minutes, profound open eyed beauty, heavy CEV imagery, music incredible, very euphoric. See very last post of this thread.
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
Part 1: HPBCD complexed DMT experimental dosage, effects & duration

I found a thread here from 2012 entitled "Complexing DMT freebase for sublingual administration" After reading all 3 pages, I learned that no user in the thread attempted HPBCD complex to DMT, so I did an experiment to find out if it works.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=30071

I used a 7:1 gram weight ratio of HPBCD (hydroxy propyl beta cyclodextrin, molar weight between 1200 to 1500 g/mol) on auction sites and elsewhere, to DMT (molar weight = 188g/mol) in order to keep the molar ratio of cyclodextrin to host drug at a 1:1 molar ratio.

What I did was place 30mg freebase dmt on a spoon, add 210mg of HPBCD powder on top the DMT, add 5 drops (less than 0.250ml) of VERY HOT near boiling water from a pipette, this was water that was pre-heated up in microwave in coffee cup. I knead/mash & mix it all together using end of a spoon for 2 minutes, it turns into a clear sticky solution, then draw up liquid with pipette, place drops under tongue and hold for 15 minutes. The DMT will all dissolve into the bloodstream.

210mg of HPBCD may look like alot when laid out, but when even just a few drops of hot water is added to it, it shrinks into a small sticky clear mass as it is derived from a sugar molecule, perfect for "under the tongue" use.

Strong effects at 5 minutes after the end of the 15 minute HPBCD DMT sublingual drug delivery under tongue: tryptamine rush/buzz & greatly elevated heart rate & pulse, dilated pupils...neon colorful visuals/visions...peak at 30 to 45 minutes, duration 60 to 90 minutes. 250mg tetrahydroharmine taken orally 3 hours earlier, transcendent combination, music sounded heavenly, the spiritual power of music.

I would imagine this might allow those who normally get nausea from oral preps to avoid the nausea. There is no burn under tongue, taste yes. I used this 3 times in one night over the course of several hours with THH, and my tongue was just fine, no burn or scarring. Felt just fine next day too. I experienced profound beauty and had visuals, very transcendent. Zero nausea.

Narang and Sharma mention in their 2010 sublingual paper that under the tongue pharmaceuticals can be 3 to 10 times more bioavailable than oral. HPBCD makes the non-water soluble DMT water soluble. It traps and delivers small molecules such as DMT extremely effectively across the mucosa membrane under the tongue, with it's high permeability (only 100 to 200 micrometers thick) and rich blood supply--shuttling the DMT directly to bloodstream.

Most studies recommend a 1:1 equimolar ratio of HPBCD to host drug for complexing.

This was using DMT cleaned up using a sodium carbonate wash. PKA of DMT is 8.75 or so, so please do not use a sodium bicarbonate wash -- it will eat up most of your DMT, as ph of bicarb is not high enough, it needs to be 1 to 2 points higher than PKA of DMT, at 11 or 11.5 or so is perfect, where 100% sodium carbonate PH is at, found in pool isle of home box store.

HPBCD is a new technology that allows freebase nonpolar drugs like DMT to be trapped by the cyclodextrin inner cavity which is composed of an inner "non-polar trap", and "outer polar cavity or cone" which allows the normally water insoluble DMT to be made 100% water soluble.

HPBCD is composed from a sugar molecule, it has been used to make scores of other non-water soluble drugs 100% water soluble and reach peak activity as measurements of the drug in the bloodstream indicated that all of the freebase drug was absorbed effectively.

Other examples of non water soluble freebase non-polar drugs complexed with HPBCD made water soluble: hormones, pregnisolone, etc.

Apparently, this also makes the DMT absorb very well if taken orally as well, possibly improving even the oral bio-availability substantially when taken with RIMA's to activate it, etc.

THH or tetrahydroharmine can be taken orally (100, 150 to 200mg), my favorite in combo, while the DMT can be used sublingually, allowing the best of both worlds. No nausea felt. Have tried this in dreams several times in one night, and it works extremely well, tryptamine rush felt around 5 or more minutes after sublingual application, peak at 30 to 45 minutes, like an extended sub-breakthrough, excellent for long lasting transcendental contemplation and work. Best to limit to once a week or so, so no tolerance.

professor8 (found here from 11/1/2010 he writes like a poet w/special powers of imagination & expression):
Quote:
Tetrahydroharmine (THH) has the ability to raise your vibration in a most powerful, yet subtle way. It brings a crystalline prismy texture to spice and adds a super clear watery dimension to Aya, like looking down through 10meters of shimmering Caribbean Sea on clear blue day. It brings a dimension of pure light to the entheogenic experience and encourages entities & intelligences of only the Highest Order. If one is not accustomed to perceiving these experiences with a spiritual perspective most of the nuances & subtleties THH brings on are overlooked and remain unseen and one would better enjoy Harmaline as a house painter chooses a roller over a brush, its about preference & choice.

I agree with his statement. Should add that music sounds quite incredible on a combo of 150mg or more of THH + DMT as tetrahydroharmine imho breaks down the filters or barriers in the mind, so that "mind at large" can be let loose, very similar to listening to music on cactus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_at_Large

In TIHKAL, 300mg of tetrahydroharmine (THH) is equated by one psychonaut to the closed eye visionary (CEV) power of 100mg harmaline, but without all the nausea and dizziness. I totally agree. It glows blue under blacklight, like LSD or psilocin & has a metallic-like lingering taste with a 10.5 hour half-life.

Don't forget that this should improve the ORAL BIOAVAILABILITY of dmt when combined with a RIMA as well -- this technology has been used to potentiate these freebase drugs ORALLY as well -- this could potentially mean an Ayahuasca experience that is strong in potency.

"Sublingual mucosa as a route for systemic drug delivery" by Narang & Sharma 2010:
https://innovareacademic...pps/Vol3Suppl2/1092.pdf

As you can see from this sublingual viagra study, even 50 to 100mg doses can be administered under the tongue, the authors noting that less of the drug was required, and that it began working in only one half the normal time of an oral dose:

"The start of pharmacological activity after sublingual administration of sildenafil citrate in 30 patients affected by erectile dysfunction." by Siati & Franzolin 2003:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12741340/

Tetrahydroharmine on it's own will also yield the same type visions as harmaline, it just takes more of it. For example, around 300mg of THH will yield the same visions as about 100mg harmaline...even if the THH dose is split in two over several hours, the visions will still be apparent some time after the 2nd dose takes effect, the doses are additive.

THH in the caapi also seems to strongly activate the right hand hemisphere of the brain-- the side that performs tasks that have do with creativity and the arts, feelings, visualizations, imagination, holistic thinking & intuition, empathy, spirituality & connectedness. Researchers found that the right side of the brain lit up in brain scans of people who took LSD, mescaline, or mushrooms. This includes tetrahydroharmine. The world is largely moving in the direction of the Left Brain: technology and science. What the world needs is to move in the direction of Right Brain development.

Quote from TIHKAL by Dr. Shulgin "More studies on tetrahydroharmine are absolutely imperative."
Note: I spent much time pulling up many threads on "sublingual or nasal fumarate salt DMT", and they were all dissapointing reads, whereas the several HPBCD complexed 30mg DMT experiments I performed were strong indeed--held under tongue for 15 minutes, 5 minutes later: rapid heartbeat, rapid pulse, dilated pupils, felt distinct tryptamine rush & buzz take over my body, neon colored CEV visuals. Felt elation, euphoria especially in combo with the THH which I had taken many hours earlier.

Music sounded very good, experienced profound beauty with open eyes & CEV's with closed eyes. The duration was long. I re-dosed more 30mg HPBCD complexed DMT every hour for the next 3 hours, it was a sublime experience. I should have gone even higher in dosage to gauge. The afterglow even after the 3 hour period was fantastic. I watched a movie and had a fantastic time.

Have no explanation for how well this worked, there must be something special going on with the complexed HPBCD DMT, I can feel that it all absorbs in less than 15 minutes, and it wastes no time in reaching the brain unhindered, very impressed with this route of administration.

Look forward to hearing from other experimenters, HPBCD is dirt cheap. I bought my 1kg tub for less than the price of two movie tickets over 12 years ago, had been sitting in my closet all that time, used it in the past for complexing pro-hormones for sublingual use, very effective I might add, been a weight lifter since my early 20's. I read other weight lifters were doing the same, so I copied what they were doing before pro-hormones were banned.

Keep in mind that only a portion or "tail end" of the host molecule is needed to attach or fit into the cyclodextrin cone, and that's all that is needed to be "trapped". I attached a picture of this below. The cyclodextrins have toroidal shapes, with the larger and the smaller openings of the toroid exposing to the solvent secondary and primary hydroxyl groups respectively.

Post #8 is all about the 2016 Polish morning glory study and the new 2020 receptorome data which compares LSH in the morning glory seeds to LSD, important new data never seen before.

Stay true to yourself, Love, Peace and Music
http://www.friskyradio.com





Edited by tregar (05/23/21 07:15 PM)


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Offlinetregar
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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27278400 - 04/22/21 07:59 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Question asked:
"Will it also increase the bio activity of psilocybin or block it?"
Quote:

Great question. Psilocybin is an alkaloid that is already soluble in water, so its absorption into the bloodstream is not improved or enhanced by HPBCD's. HPBCD's is a technology used to greatly enhance the absorption of freebase or non-polar molecules, like freebase DMT. It makes it 100% water soluble.



I strongly suggest taking 100, 150 or 200mg of THH or tetrahydroharmine first, then take the HPBCD complexed DMT under tongue around 30 minutes later. You can continue to take more HPBCD complexed DMT doses sublingually for several more hours. This results in a mind-expanding experience very similar to cactus -- music sounds incredible, infinite beauty is seen all around you, powerful spiritual insights and divine transcendence. THH has a half life of 10.5 hours, so for 5 hours you can enter this remarkable state of expanded divine consciousness.

You can alternately also combine the drops of HPBCD complexed DMT liquid with a warm to hot water solution of harmine and THH dissolved all together and ALL taken at the exact same time for a powerful pharmahuasca experience identical to true Ayahuasca. Freebase DMT complexed this way with HPBCD will dissolve into the bloodstream of the stomach very effectively when taken with harmine & THH, for a strong journey nearly identical to if you were to use strong water soluble psychotria leaf DMT actives, which is hard to find now days, with Hawaiian leaf nearly extinct.

Caapi contains tetrahydroharmine as it's second largest alkaloid, and contributes greatly to the experience in many postitive ways, besides it's visionary, brightening and coloring abilities, it goes way beyond that....it strongly inactivates barriers or filters in the brain (like LSD and cactus does) so that "mind at large" as coined by Aldous Huxley can be let loose a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_at_Large

Tetrahydroharmine on it's own will also yield the same type visions as harmaline, it just takes more of it. For example, around 300mg of THH will yield the same visions as about 100mg harmaline...even if the THH dose is split in two over several hours, the visions will still be apparent some time after the 2nd dose takes effect, the doses are additive.

THH in the caapi also seems to strongly activate the right hand hemisphere of the brain-- the side that performs tasks that have do with creativity and the arts, feelings, visualizations, imagination, holistic thinking & intuition, empathy, spirituality & connectedness. Researchers found that the right side of the brain lit up in brain scans of people who took LSD, mescaline, or mushrooms. This includes tetrahydroharmine. The world is largely moving in the direction of the Left Brain: technology and science. What the world needs is to move in the direction of Right Brain development.

Quote from TIHKAL by Dr. Shulgin "More studies on tetrahydroharmine are absolutely imperative."

--------------------------------------------
Part 2: receptorome chart & explanation
--------------------------------------------

This is why I suggest taking the DMT with tetrahydroharmine (as found in true Ayahuasca):

Thomas S. Ray, Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome (2010):
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009019
hxxp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009019
Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max or "off the charts", 0.00=min
Quote:

LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00 (make up >80% of brain 5-ht)
LSD: 5ht1b = 4.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.19, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.41
LSD: 5ht1d = 3.70, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 3.40, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.48
LSD: 5ht1e = 2.62, DMT: = 3.28, psilocin = 3.03, mescaline = 3.16, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.72
LSD: 5ht2a = 3.54, DMT: = 2.58, psilocin = 2.14, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.98
LSD: 5ht2b = 3.11, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 4.00, mescaline = 3.97, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.69 (sensual & entactogenic)
LSD: 5ht2c = 3.11, DMT: = 3.42, psilocin = 2.52, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.55
LSD: 5ht5a = 3.64, DMT: = 3.16, psilocin = 2.83, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.84
LSD: -5ht6 = 3.75, DMT: = 3.35, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.73
LSD: -5ht7 = 3.77, DMT: = 4.00, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.69 (novelty & new ideas)
LSD: ---D1 = 2.34, DMT: = 3.51, psilocin = 3.37, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.38
LSD: -A-2A = 2.93, DMT: = 2.75, psilocin = 1.36, mescaline = 2.92, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00 (aesthetic/beauty adrenal a2a)
LSD: -A-2B = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.57, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.86 (aesthetic/beauty adrenal a2b)
LSD: -A-2C = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.03, mescaline = 4.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.57 (aesthetic/beauty adrenal a2c)



2011 Thomas S. Ray study: Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min
Quote:

LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00 (these serotonin filters/gates/barriers/doors make up >80% of brain 5-ht & are broken down when 5-ht1a is agonized)



Dr. Nichols (Heffter.org LSD paper):
Quote:

LSD has very strong potency in blocking the action of serotonin. LSD is strongly "anti-serotonin". The morpholide lysergamide cousin had only about 1/10th the potency in blocking serotonin. Of the 5 diferent dialkylamides we studied LSD was the most potent and specific serotonin antagonist. 5-ht1a makes up >80% of brain 5-ht receptors.



As we go thru day to day life, the 5-ht1a brain serotonin filters (gates, or day to day survival filters as I like to call them) which make up over 80% of brain 5-ht are in place so that we will not be overwhelmed by the perception of the way things would appear to an un-filtered mind, or "Mind at Large" as Aldous Huxley describes it in "Doors of Perception" as "infinite or eternal". He also referred to the visions as coming from "the other world" in his book "Moksha". I prefer to think of it in similar terms as well "the spirit world" or "the other world".

5-ht1a inhibition by entheogens (in green above) theoretically cause this filter system to be lifted, and the infinite mind to manifest in combination with oral dmt with the tetrahydroharmine providing the 5-ht1a inhibition & additional adrenal system agonization (A2A thru A2C), just as bufotenine in snuff's provide the 5-ht1a inhibition combined with the dmt in the snuff's, resulting in a 3 hour experience ie both examples of Teamwork on how these entheogens are used traditionally in the Amazon.

Thomas S. Ray's study shows a value of 3.57 at SERT for Ibogaine (4.00 is max). Ibogaine has been shown to inhibit serotonin transporter (SERT) noncompetitively, in contrast to all other known inhibitors, which are competitive with substrate. Ibogaine inhibits both serotonin and dopamine reuptake transporters, it is an SDRI or serotonin & dopamine reuptake inhibitor. Tetrahydroharmine is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, it is an SRI found in caapi. In other words, both are strong serotonin reuptake inhibitors which inhibit over 80% of brain 5-ht at 5-ht1a.

In contrast, as an example, Cocaethylene (coca leaf tea bags soaked in wine, the orally active & potent ingredient formed in the liver from cocaine + ethanol in the 1860's "Vin Mariani" wine popular with both Popes, Thomas Edison and scores of other famous people) increases the levels of serotonergic, noradrenergic, and dopaminergic neurotransmission in the brain by inhibiting the action of the serotonin transporter, norepinephrine transporter, and dopamine transporter. These pharmacological properties make cocaethylene a serotonin-norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor [SNDRI; also known as a "triple reuptake inhibitor"].

Cocaethylene has a higher affinity for the dopamine transporter than does cocaine, but has a lower affinity for the serotonin and norepinephrine transporters. In McCance-Katz et alia's 1993 study cocaethylene "produced greater subjective ratings of 'High' in comparison with administration of cocaine or alcohol alone."


Edited by tregar (04/27/21 07:48 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27278401 - 04/22/21 08:01 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

--------------------------------------------
Part 3: Tetrahydroharmine effects
--------------------------------------------

The Ayahuasca closed eye visions using 100, 150 to 200mg tetrahydroharmine or THH and HPBCD complexed DMT (30mg on up) together surpass in magnificence anything I have ever seen in reality or in works of art.

With open eyes, all spiritual things such as nature, art, female form, beauty, joy, take on significant meaning with infinite beauty, just like with cactus or LSD. Extraordinary beauty is manifested with open eyes and with the visions one sees with closed eyes. Impossible neon-like colors are seen that don't exist on this Earth.

The existence of a higher spiritual plane is recognized to which insight can and must be gained, yet it does not reject the mundane reality as inferior or empty. This joyous embracement of the world of form leads to words like infinite pleasure, beauty and joy. This loving reappraisal of the worldly forms leads the way to higher divine planes.


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 08:09 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27278402 - 04/22/21 08:02 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

--------------------------------------------
Part 4: Tetrahydroharmine receptorome similarities to mescaline; potentiates cactus & safety note
--------------------------------------------

A little off topic, but I think tetrahydroharmine is a pretty special compound. I've used 250mg of it to potentiate cactus to very strong levels, it makes a 12" medium san pedro cactus tea which may contain around 250mg mescaline feel like an X-large 12" thick san pedro cactus containing around 400mg mescaline. It makes a 12" thick bridgesii cactus feel closer to a tea made with a 12" bridgesii cactus along with an extra 6" piece.

In the data I've seen for THH, it strongly blocks serotonin just like cactus, but also agonizes the adrenal A2A thru A2C receptors (the receptors associated with aesthetics & beauty), just like mescaline has been shown to do receptorome wise, explaining perhaps why they "overlap" so well. THH being able to make mescaline in cactus feel much stronger than it really is. Anyone who has ever taken cactus or high dose THH knows the appreciation for beauty experienced is "over the top".

But you have to stagger the THH from the cactus by taking the tetrahydroharmine around an hour after the cactus is taken, that way any minor maoi's or rima's in the cactus won't interact with the SRI which is THH, which can result in a faster heartbeat for a few hours which has happened to me before...so long as you take it later, it potentiates the cactus quite incredibly...it feels like I've taken 400mg of mescaline containing cactus tea when it's really only 250mg mescaline containing cactus, and they both lasts around 6 hours with super strong activity, so they wind down at around the same time. I have around 7 months experience combining the two, giving myself around 2 weeks apart from journeys.

It works so well, I won't take cactus any other way from now on. I get much more mileage from cactus this way. Visuals and visions are insane, music is so good sounding, you would think you were an alien experiencing sound and music for the very first time, every instrument stands out on it's own, like hearing a track for the very first time. It's a game changer.


Edited by tregar (04/27/21 08:00 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27278404 - 04/22/21 08:02 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

--------------------------------------------
Part 5: chemist Patrick Arnold's HPBCD prohormones & bloodwork studies
--------------------------------------------

A litte bit more on sublingual & nasal HPBCD complexed pharmaceuticals:

Several years ago, before "prohormones" were banned, there was a company called "Ergopharm" ran by chemist Patrick Arnold that made HPBCD complexed solutions of prohormones in a nasal spray & in a HPBCD complexed powder that was administered under tongue.

In 2001 Arnold's company introduced the prohormone 4-Androstenediol, under the marketing name 4-AD. 4-AD is a prohormone that is easily converted by the body into testosterone, and it sold well. He is the chemist who created hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin complexed diols such as Cyclo-Diol(TM) and Cyclo-Nordiol(TM).

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/ask-patrick-arnold-11/

I bought and used the nasal spray and it was very effective, had my testosterone level checked with a blood test at the local labcore one hour after administering the spray and it was 3,500 ng/dl ! when my normal level was 600ng/dl. Highest measured normal levels in men are around 1200 ng/dl. The blood test cost me $70.00. It had strong mental effects as well. The spray would cause the 4-ad to enter the bloodstream nasally, and convert to testosterone via enzyme activity.

Patrick Arnold also made a sublingual powder of HPBCD complexed 1-AD that could be grabbed from the bottle with a pre-measured scooper, and the powder held under tongue for around 10 minutes or so, sold just as well as the nasal spray, I tried the sublingual product he sold, and that again was effective.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The oral route using HPBCD complexed DMT in combination with a pharmahuasca RIMA/SRI combo (taken all at the same time in a hot water tea) holds much promise as well, for greatly increased absorption & strength.


Edited by tregar (04/27/21 07:50 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27278405 - 04/22/21 08:05 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

--------------------------------------------
Part 6: Dr. Narang: "with sublingual or "under the tongue" better than buccal, gingival & palatal
--------------------------------------------

With Insufflation, sublingual or rectal, DMT is not broken down by monoamine oxidase.

See above paper from Narang et al, Intl J Pharm Sci, Vol 3, Suupl 2, 2011, 18-22:
"With sublingual or "under the tongue", the mucosea thickness is only 100-200, high permeability with rich blood supply, much better than buccal or gingival & palatal, 200, 250, 500 micrometer respectively, shuttling the drug directly to bloodstream." The DMT is not broken down via monamine oxidase whatsoever this way. It avoids the liver and first pass metabolism. The drug is rapidly absorbed via the rich blood supply vessels under the tongue rather than being broken down in the digestive track via the enzyme monamine oxidase. According to paper: "Sublingually administered drugs reach directly in to the blood stream through the ventral surface of the tongue and floor of the mouth. The drug solutes are rapidly absorbed into the reticulated vein which lies underneath the oral mucosa, and transported through the facial veins, internal jugular vein, and braciocephalic vein and then drained in to systemic circulation."

According to paper, "the absorption of drugs through the sublingual route is 3 to 10 times greater than oral route and is surpassed by hypodermic injection. Peak blood levels of most products administered sublingually are achieved within 10 to 15 minutes, which is generally much faster than when those same drugs are ingested orally." This has been my experience as well, after 10 minutes of sublingual under tongue application, 5 minutes after the 10 minute sublingual absorption, the DMT rush is felt, followed by 60 to 90 minutes of entheogenic activity. According to paper, "sublingual absorption of drugs is efficient. The percent of each dose absorbed is generally higher than that achieved by means of oral ingestion."

Smoked: If DMT is smoked, the maximal effects last for a short period of time (5 to 30 minutes, dose-dependent). The onset after inhalation is very fast (less than 45 seconds) and maximal effects are reached within about a minute.

Insufflation & Sublingual absorption via Oral Mucosa (under tongue): When DMT is insufflated (snorted through the nostrils) or absorbed sublingually via the complexing of the drug with HPBCD to make it water soluble, the duration is markedly increased.

Injection: Injected DMT produces an experience similar to inhalation in duration, intensity, and characteristics.

Oral ingestion: DMT, which is broken down by the digestive enzyme monoamine oxidase, is practically inactive if taken orally, unless combined with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI).

See post above on nasally and sublingually (under the tongue) delivered HPBCD complexed pro-hormones & testosterone, all very poorly water soluble like DMT, made water soluble with HPBCD.

As far as I know, I am the only one so far to have done this successfully. It is extremely easy. Back then when the nexus had that thread, most commercial HPBCD was not even available on auction sites or anywhere else. I had bought mine from a single bulk supplier on a whim over 12 years ago, and stored the whole tub in my closet, and just pulled it out the other day to use it for the 1st time on DMT, and I'm so glad I did! It does indeed work very well.


Edited by tregar (04/27/21 07:54 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27278406 - 04/22/21 08:06 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

--------------------------------------------
Part 7: a little bit on my 70 Ayahuasca experiences, doses & visions
--------------------------------------------

FYI: The THH is an SRI (serotonin reuptake inhibitor with significant adrenal activity at A2A thru A2C receptors, similar to mescaline in that regard), it has super weak MAOI activity (see Wikipedia on tetrahydroharmine).

I looked up the data comparing RIMA activity of THH to harmine from a lab supplier who gave the data, and they referenced THH as only having around 1/100th the RIMA strength of harmine, practically non-existent strength as a RIMA. That would mean it would take 20,000mg of THH to equal 200mg of harmine in RIMA strength. Harmine & harmaline however have significant RIMA/MAOI activity.

P.S. I have not actually tried the sublingual DMT by itself, I always prefer it with THH taken orally about 1/2 hour before applying the sublingual HPBCD DMT under my tongue. THH will not activate the DMT at all, but the combo of the two (oral THH + sublingual complexed DMT) is my absolute favorite after trying this several times.

How to best describe THH or tetrahydroharmine:

THH alone (200 to 300mg) with open eyes = everything is brighter and extremely colorful, beauty enhancement is over the top...neon-diamondlike is my best description, like looking down thru several meters of clear blue ocean water on a bright sunny day, just like professor8 describes it. A study done once on the UDV found that brews with high levels of tetrahydroharmine were preferred over all other brews, they found the "dmt was not the main attraction" but actually brews high in THH, fascinating study.

With 250mg to 300mg THH, closed eye dream-like Ayahuasca visions actually form with closed eyes that begin with colored sparkles and geometric dots and ziggly lines in orange, green, and blue that dart around and then progress to the monochrome visions for 1.5 to 2 hours, These visions are WAY beyond 4k, and highly detailed. The DMT seems to add color and brightness to the visions. The DMT also of course adds strong psychedelic alterations & activity to the journey and enhances the quality of music in combo with THH, music sounds incredible as mentioned before for several hours, especially if you keep taking the sublingual DMT around once an hour for the next 3 hours.

Years ago, I took DMT freebase (70 to 90mg) with harmine and THH pharmahuasca at least a dozen times, and found it mild at best (on a Shulgin scale of 1 to 5, they were all +3 experiences). I even tried to dissolve it into coca cola and citric acid in hot water to make it absorb better as the salt, but it only slightly increased the strength.

The sublingual HPBCD complexed DMT tried the other day was all encompassing and strong at only 30mg, very impressed, I can only imagine where stronger doses will carry this psychonaut.

After that I switched to taking 30 to 35 grams of Hawaiian psychotria boiled down to a couple oz, then added the harmine + thh to the 2oz of hot pychotria tea....well that blew my mind CONSISTENTLY for many years, as I continued to use it over 65 times! Most of the experiences were +4 to +5, very strong indeed, much stronger than the freebase used dmt.

This agrees with what I read from clearlight:
Quote:

Clearlight experiments that involved several people found the leaf brew form superior to extracted actives, they found the leaf brews very strong and powerful & clairavoyant (+5 Shulgin scale), while they mentioned that the extracted actives were mild (+3 Shulgin scale) at best, even up to 100mg. Again, this is poorly understood.




Even Jonathan Ott found that in his 20 experiments posted in his book "Ayahuasca Analogues", that none of his later experiments with extracted actives quite matched the power of his 1st actual Ayahuasca brewed with caapi and good real leaf (experiment #1), he had no explanation for this. He did however find 70mg to be close to it, but still not the same.

From "Articulations, On the Utilisation and Meanings of Psychedelics" (2015) by Julian Palmer:
Quote:

Modern day researchers, spearheaded by people such as myself, have realized that Jonathan Ott's calculations fall short of what most explorers need for a truly visionary experience. Even with a strong harmine/Banisteriopsis caapi dosage, 30-60mg of dmt is not sufficient to produce significant visionary effects in most people. So if fact, a dosage of 30-40mg of dmt is where tryptamine-like effects just begin to occur for most people, and 10-25mg dmt is not really noticeable above the gentle psychoactive effects of the harmine.

Each person is different and for some rare individuals, 30-40mg may be about as much dmt as they wish to take--but most people need at least 60-80mg for sufficient psychoactive effects and even at this dosage, you generally cannot expect a full-blown visionary experience, even when using a strong dose of 4 grams of syrian rue or 100 grams of strong caapi vine. Also, it should be pointed out that going beyond 4 grams of syrian rue (around 200-280mg of harmaline) or 100 grams of strong caapi vine (150--250mg of harmine) can increase the negative effects of these beta-carbolines--which include a feeling of heaviness, pressure in the head, inability to walk properly, more purging and perhaps more of an emphasis on bodily processes.

An oral dosage of 100mg of dmt is where the visionary qualities really begin to occur, for most people say when they are taking 3 grams of syrian rue or 80 grams of strong vine, and in context, 40-60 grams of strong vine is enough to fully mao inhibit most people.

I would say to neophyte explorers to tread carefully, and to slowly increase your dmt dosage in increments: perhaps starting at 60mg, going to 100mg, then 150mg. Some people are going to find 100mg of dmt to be exceedingly strong, and it will perhaps give them an experience they did not feel ready for.

It came to my attention after an embarrassing number of years, that taking freebase crystal DMT orally was not as potent, colourful, or clear as taking the equivalent amount of DMT in a tea that was brewed from the plant. For many years, I couldn't see how there could be a difference, but after doing some comparisons, it was obvious that the tea was much better, and the experiences resulting from the crystalline extract were inferior.

You could take twice or even three times as much DMT crystal as the equivalent in brew, and the experience from the crystal would never be as bright or full as that from the tea. Why could this be?

With extracted dmt, with chemicals used it would appear that some dimensions and qualities of the tryptamine molecules are compromised. Also, there is the factor of isolating the alkaloids from the rest of the plant. For example, there are very few people who say that extracted pure mescaline from the cactus is as potent of full bodied compared to when they take the tea made from the cactus flesh.

When making a tea from the whole plant, you are extracting the essence of the plant intelligence from its very flesh, not just isolating the alkaloids. In the alchemic method "Spagyrics" developed by Paracelsus, often considered the father of modern medicine, the ashes of the plant are commonly burnt and then blended back into an alcohol-extracted tincture. Friends who have experimented with this procedure report that a Spagyric tincture of Ayahuasca is much more potent than a normal tea prepared from the same amount of Ayahuasca vine.




However, at this point, I have noticed that ALL the dried Hawaiian psychotria is extinct, and is no longer available. So I am looking forward in dreams to oral HPBCD complexed DMT at around 60mg on up, and hoping this will do the trick, I'm sure it will after having experienced what I really love with the 30mg sublingual HPBCD complexed DMT.

I have read HPBCD complexing these non-water soluble freebase drugs to make them orally 100% water soluble should make it absorb very effectively in the body, so I do believe it will be possible to once again achieve very strong journeys, similar to the ones I used to have using strong water soluble psychotria leaf.

I often found the oral DMT too short as it would wind down after 90 minutes of taking the pharmahuasca, and I am very glad I found this new complexing method so that I can take a "sublingual dose" if I choose at 90 minutes, to extend the journey at least another 90 minutes, to get a full 3 hours of strong activity out of it, that is my goal, and I feel I am one step closer after having experienced the 30mg HPBCD complexed DMT experiment that was successful.

1) This could also be used to make HPBCD complexed DMT drops which can be added to a hot water tea that already has (around 180 to 220mg) harmine and (150 to 250mg) tetrahydroharmine dissolved in it (using added crushed vitamin C or similar to dissolve) for a SUPER POTENT ORAL pharmahuasca exeperience. Mix it all together and take at the exact same time, just as the Shaman's do. This is how I used to take the Ayahuasca over 65 times I made using same ingredients mixed into 2oz of hot psychotria leaf tea filtered and boiled down to 2oz.

2) Don't forget the importance of tetrahydroharmine or THH, which is 2nd highest ingredient in Caapi made Ayahuasca...you will want to experience real TRUE Ayahuasca, which is a brew high in it (from 150 to 250mg, 250 to 300mg for intense visions):

My last time taking 300mg of THH alone, I saw the interior decorations of palaces, the checkered floors, the beautiful windows and furniture, the winding stair cases, I was blown away, I've seen sacred temples for religious worship, beautiful animals and super fine women, birds of all kinds. I even saw a world war two fighter plane in the same session, it looked like the famous supermarine spitfire in full detail. Caapi tells a story when you drink it with eyes closed, she teaches you things, the most beautiful "realistic visions" that no other entheogen comes close to showing you, these realistic visions go on for long periods.

THH with open eyes: everything is brighter and extremely colorful, beauty enhancement is over the top...neon-diamondlike is my best description, like looking down thru several meters of clear blue ocean water on a bright sunny day.

All of the closed eye visions for me begin with colored sparkles and geometric dots and ziggly lines in orange, green, and blue that dart around and then progress to the monochrome visions for 1.5 to 2 hours. These visions are WAY beyond 4k, and highly detailed. The DMT adds brightness and color to the visions, for example, animals seen will have colored patterning. It also adds strong psychedelic alterations to the journey. Music will sound very alien & incredibly good.

In one past journey, saw three beautiful naked woman dancers twirling in front of stone pillars that rotated slowly. Jungle scenes lit up by the moonlight, full of snakes and palm trees by the beach and lots of people I had known in my life in floating bubbles that were to the left and right of the scene, drifting up into the sky. Elephants from India embellished with vibrantly colored jhools (saddle cloth) and heavy jewellery and sparkling anklets. Detached female faces of breath-taking beauty with freckles. Waterfalls in the middle of the jungle.

With another session, saw barely dressed women wearing futuristic clothing and bikinis of some sort, dazzling in it's design. A spinning vortex made of blue color with closed eyes that opened up in front of me that looked like a wormhole of some sort, I travelled inside of it, and was dropped off on an island in the pacific with wooden Tikis all around the perimeter of a small culture. I saw a chalkboard full of mathematical equations and scientific discoveries drawn out. I flew like a bird for nearly a minute over what looked like Los Angeles, as I could see the homes with swimming pools and parks below me.

I've seen pyramids adorned with gold sheen, architecture of the past and future, Egyptian scenery, vast landscapes, medieval scenery, it goes on and on. Everything is brand new as if newly created. Very similar to the Ayahuasca visions encountered by Benny Shanon in "Antipodes of the Mind".

Stay true to yourself. Love, Peace & music
http://www.friskyradio.com/


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 08:08 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27278410 - 04/22/21 08:08 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)
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----------------------------
Part 8: New research: Morning glory contains 5 stimulating LSD-like drugs, soluble only in wine/alcohol, only sparingly soluble in water.
----------------------------

Here are a few of my other topics in case you are interested:

13,000 views:
Positronic Ayahuasca brewing
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82030

12,000 views:
Receptorome study: how traditional Ayahuasca & snuffs differ from dmt
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83164

6,000 views:
New research: Morning glory contains 5 stimulating LSD-like drugs, soluble only in wine/alcohol, only sparingly soluble in water
https://mycotopia.net/topic/110273-new-research-morning-glory-contains-5-stimulating-lsd-like-drugs-soluble-only-in-winealcohol-only-sparingly-soluble-in-water/

Has the Mystery of the Eleusinian Mysteries been solved? by Ivan Valencic
http://www.psychedelic-library.org/valencic.htm

For a visual high dose claviceps paspali (same fresh alkaloid profile as the fresh Mesoamerican Aztec/Mayan morning glory) ergot wine trip report prepared by LSD chemist Todd Skinner, reported in the literature: read Krystle Cole's 3 page report on page 2 post #32 of morning glory link above.

She saw "constantly rotating holographic Sanskrit or Arabic & Zodiac symbols, floating in a circle around Todd's head."

It just so happens that the ancient Aztec and Mayan also added the fresh or dried pulverized morning glory seeds to a drink containing alcohol, they learned this would extract all the stimulating actives from the seeds:

Page 515 "Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants" Christian Ratsch:
Quote:

The fresh or dried morning glory seeds normally were added by the Aztec and Mayan to alcoholic drinks (sugarcane liquor; c. alcohol), tepache (maize beer, chicha), and balche' (Schultes 1941, 37).




The merck index shows that (1) elymoclavine, (2) agroclavine, (3) chanoclavine & (4) penniclavine in the seeds are best soluble in alcohol (sparingly soluble in water).

(5) Lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide (LSH) in the seeds only survives outside the seeds in an acidic environment (example: such as cold sherry wine which is already at ph=4). LSH decomposes in ionic conditions, neutral water (plain water), when heated, or in alkaline environments. See very bottom attached illustration of how LSH decomposes to LSA unless extracted into acidic water, wine, etc.

Important new 2020 receptorome binding data just came out this year that is available for LSH or Lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide found in morning glory seeds. See below:

http://www.t3db.ca/toxins/T3D3687
hxxp://www.t3db.ca/toxins/T3D3687

5-ht2a, 5-ht2b, 5-ht2c, adrenal A1A, adrenal A1B, adrenal A1D, adrenal A2A, adrenal A2B & adrenal A2C

This is important as it shows LSH binds to just about all the adrenal receptors, while LSD only binds to one of the adrenal receptors: A2A in comparison (as far as adrenal receptors are concerned). See chart below: DMT, mescaline & psilocin all bind to many of the adrenal receptors. The adrenal receptors are implicated in the perception of aesthetics, beauty.

This may explain why the semi-synthetic man-made LSD has been perceived by many to have less aesthetic appreciation than the natural entheogens: LSH, mescaline, Ayahuasca (harmine + tetrahydroharmine + harmaline) with Caapi, dmt, psilocin. It's man-made quality may be more perceptable due to it's lack of significant adrenal agonism, which is prominent with the natural entheogens.

Example: Mescaline has a rating of 4.00 at adrenal A2C (see below), 4.00 = max = off the charts, and anyone who has ever consumed cactus knows the appreciation for beauty is "thru the roof" or "over the top".

Important teamwork is going on between LSH and penniclavine in the seeds, the 2 highest alkaloids. Agroclavine and penniclavine in the seeds (metabolite of agroclavine) bind to 5-ht1a, 5-ht2a, 5-ht6, 5-ht7, adrenal A2A, A2C, A2D, and most of the dopamine receptors in comparison. See "Agroclavine & Penniclavine radioligand (receptorome) data, Planta Med. 1996 Oct; 62(5): 387-92."

Thomas S. Ray, Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome (2010):
https://journals.plos.or...71/journal.pone.0009019
Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max (off the charts), 0.00=min, X.XX=receptor is hit but we don't have strength data.
Quote:

LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, LSH: = 0.00, penniclavine = X.XX, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00
LSD: 5ht1b = 4.00, LSH: = 0.00, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.19, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.41
LSD: 5ht1d = 3.70, LSH: = 0.00, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 3.40, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.48
LSD: 5ht1e = 2.62, LSH: = 0.00, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 3.28, psilocin = 3.03, mescaline = 3.16, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.72
LSD: 5ht2a = 3.54, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = X.XX, DMT: = 2.58, psilocin = 2.14, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.98
LSD: 5ht2b = 3.11, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 4.00, mescaline = 3.97, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.69
LSD: 5ht2c = 3.11, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 3.42, psilocin = 2.52, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.55
LSD: 5ht5a = 3.64, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 3.16, psilocin = 2.83, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.84
LSD: -5ht6 = 3.75, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = X.XX, DMT: = 3.35, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.73
LSD: -5ht7 = 3.77, LSH: = 0.00, penniclavine = X.XX, DMT: = 4.00, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.69
LSD: ---D1 = 2.34, LSH: = 0.00, penniclavine = X.XX, DMT: = 3.51, psilocin = 3.37, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.38
LSD: -A-2A = 2.93, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = X.XX, DMT: = 2.75, psilocin = 1.36, mescaline = 2.92, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00
LSD: -A-2B = 0.00, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.57, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.86
LSD: -A-2C = 0.00, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = X.XX, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.03, mescaline = 4.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.57
LSD: -A-2D = 0.00, LSH: = 0.00, penniclavine = X.XX, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 0.00, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00
LSD: -A-1A = 0.00, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 0.00, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00
LSD: -A-1B = 0.00, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 0.00, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00
LSD: -A-1D = 0.00, LSH: = X.XX, penniclavine = 0.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 0.00, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00



I don't know if you remember morninglory seed from long ago? He was on another forum. Here is one of his old classic posts that makes alot of sense:

morningloryseed:
Quote:

Unlike most alkaloids, LSA is water soluble when it is in its natural, freebase state...the way it is found in the seeds. it is a rare, exception to a rule because by simple definition, alkaloids are very alkaline or basic when in their freebase form as they normally occur in plants. Thus, they do not dissolve well into water. Most likely, many of the other ergoline akaloids probably are not water-soluble in their freebase form and thus are not extracted from the ground seed matter when a "tea" is made. or they get dissolved into the non-polar solvent used when an A/B extract is performed and they are thrown away.

Thus, extracts have a different mix of alkaloids and that is why the trip from A/B extracts or a "tea" of m. g. seeds feels so different than that of the whole seeds. In my vast experience with eating the seeds, and taking extracts, the trip that results is not as good. And I've taken the seeds more than any other psychedelic, except LSD and marijuana. I find them much more narcotic/sedative-like in nature and the effects are really nothing like that which I get from EATING the seeds.

The fact that teas or other extracts feel very different from the trip of the whole seed has also been noted by everyone I've shared m.g. seed tea with, and is a comoon thing reported in trip reports. So this is definitely not a phenomena that I am alone in feeling. Many, many, many people IM or email me with morning glory seed questions and most of them who have tried both have also noted that extracts are not as psychedelic and nowhere near as potent as eating the whole seeds.

The seeds do cause nausea and vomiting (as many other psychedelics like ayahuasca, mescaline, ibogaine, etc.) but a purge, I feel great. Like I said, I think the seeds are one of the best psychedelics, and I have tried quite a number of different ones.

Extractions such as a simple morning glory "tea", or the more complicated A/B extraction, will give you a mixture of different LSA's than those found in the whole seeds. It is the combination of all the ergoline alkaloids in the seeds that make you trip.

The main alkaloid is the mostly sedating LA-111, but many others (up to a dozen or so) including d-lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide (closest molecule to LSD found in nature), are known to occur in the seeds. Together, they have a synergestic efffect and produce a very different kind of experience from pure LA-111. It is (in my opinion) a great trip. One of my favorites. Of course the trip from seeds is very different from LSD. But because it is different than LSD does not mean it is not as good. I think they are both very useful. Some of my most meaningful trips have been with natural lysergic acid amides.




Example page from Merck on agroclavine (found in morning glory seeds):
Quote:

agroclavine is soluble in ethanol, chloroform, pyridine, soluble in benzene and ether, very little water soluble.




From "The Alkaloids: Chemistry and Physiology", page 32:
Quote:

Agroclavine is readily soluble in organic acids, agroclavine is stable to acids", wine stands as one of the sources of organic acids. Page 33 "Elymoclavine is only somewhat soluble in water". Peter Webster states in "Sacred Mushrooms of the Goddess, the Secrets of Eleusis" in the morning glory chapter that Chanoclavine is soluble in alcohol.




The hard data is lacking on whether the alkaloids in the seeds are in the freebase (like morninglory seed above describes) or in the salt form. Alkaloids such as mescaline and dmt are found in the salt form in the plant, and are readily water soluble. However, these half dozen alkaloids from morning glory are found within the tiny rubbery like embryo found within the seed.

To be on the safe side, extract into wine, as this will extract the alkaloids should they be in freebase form. This will give you an extract that is no different from "eating the seeds". Morninglory above is right in that the plain water extract is no where near similar to "eating the seeds" or an acidic wine extract (editor preferred).

(1) Hermes (the Lycaeum) "Saw strong 4D lattice-like open eye visuals and warping and melting of furniture with only 400 seeds. There are around 32 to 36 seeds to a gram. So 12 to 14 grams is 400 seeds to 500 seeds. I extract into water pre-acidified with a squirt of lemon juice. I see amazing three and seemingly four-dimensional shapes morphing and bifurcating. Often I get religious and esoteric themed visuals, like fractal cherub wings and winged eyes like those in some of Alex Grey's work. Eyes are all over everything. I see pyramids and sphinxes and Gigeresque biomechanical forms. I see amazing geometric lattice structures. I watch mathematical space-filling algorithms doing their thing, all of this with nothing more than 500 seeds."

(2) Nogal (the Nook) "Yes I know of someone who tried the CWE method with the Heavenly Blue variety, except with the substitution of a coffee grinder in place of a stone metate (I think that's what is called but I could be wrong), and a squirt of lemon in the water, with around 400-500 seeds. Closed and open eyed visuals were extremely breath taking. Some of the most prominent visions were of Aztec/Mayan glyphic patterns, a menacing and demonic technicolor nymph made of light who tried to seduce the viewer, and this bizare trail of energy spheres which each contained a different stylized animal form (again definately of Aztec/Mayan origin)."

(4) Piper methysticum: "Morning Glory seeds are definitely the most euphoric psychedelic I've ever taken during the onset and the first part of the peak. Not even a strong dose of MDA could compete with the euphoria I felt from 12g of Morning Glory seeds. However, the comparison of LSA alkaloids to MDA is ridiculous. The visuals from Morning Glory seeds are quite inconsistent for me. The first time I tried them, at 9g, the visuals were very dull, but the mental and physical aspects were awesome. My second time at 12g, the visuals were beyond amazing. I got the feeling of being completely in a warp through time and visuals were flying past me and unimaginable speeds. A couple of my unexperienced friends were talking about the tracers they were seeing at the same time this was happening to me. I had to laugh. With just 6g my third time, I also had some pretty amazing visuals, though they weren't nearly as mind blowing."

(5) Myself, 400 black hard fresh seeds right off vine, grown in 75% miracle grow & 25% cow manure compost: extracted with 2 shots (60ml) of fresh just opened cold sherry wine with added 10mg of DL tartaric acid powder added (auction sites or *ma*on), and stirred together in the wine really well.

DO NOT ADD MORE THAN 10mg DL tartaric acid to the 2 shots (60ml) of sherry wine...too much DL tartaric acid can upset ph balance of the body and you will feel really bad...10mg will keep ph no lower than 3.5. The wine will go from natural ph=4 down to ph=3.5, but no lower. You will need a 1mg (0.001g) electronic scale to do this, like the AWS GPR-20 20g x 0.001g scale for example. It needs to be DL tartaric acid and not just plain L tartaric acid, The d-form salt is the form LSD is active as for example, not the L-form.

You crush the seeds inbetween a paper plate with ends folded in, you hammer the plate on a concrete surface, then you add the crushed seed powder to a coffee grinder, and grind it till it is nearly a dust...then you add the dust like seed powder to the 60ml of cold sherry wine in a tall 1/2 pint jar, then you let it sit in fridge for 3 hours, with shaking & stirring once per hour.

Then at the end of 3 hour period, you decant off the top liquid from the seed debris at the bottom....filter the sherry wine liquid thru a cotton ball in a funnel which sits in a jar, change out the cotton ball when or if it clogs, I usually have to change the cotton ball out once or twice, the top of the cotton will turn black or dark brown. The cotton ball will remove ALL the nauseating debris from the sherry wine/seed mixture. You will be left with a golden clear to light brown golden liquid, this is what you drink--no nausea as all the debris has been removed!

Before you consume, always remember to keep the 2 shot sherry wine extract of the morning glory seeds cold at all times (in the fridge) as acetaldehyde boils off at room temp or 69 degree F. You don't want your LSH decomposing to LSA do you? You can freeze it too if you plan to use it at a later time.

I saw geometric patterns on the surface of everything, with closed eyes, colored vectors spun 360 degrees while traveling from left to right across visual plane. Sounds were not only amplified & music heavenly but audio hallucinations were produced, heavy euphoria component & very strong appreciation for beauty. Remember watching Scarlett Johansson interview on a small television and melting into the seat from her beauty amidst all the breath taking geometrics. Tripped hard as hell.

Note: Cold sherry cooking wine is recommended as an extraction solution since it is already at ph=4 and is 18% alcohol, and is also very cheap ($5 per bottle). It can be found in the wine isle of any grocery store, and is often on sale. It also contains 10mg acetaldehyde per each shot (30ml). A $9 wine preserver canister can be bought at Amazon which contains a gas mixture of argon, carbon dioxide & other inert gases which can be sprayed into an open bottle of sherry wine before sealing cork to preserve the wine indefinitely, otherwise the acetaldehyde in the wine converts to acetic acid over time, giving the wine a vinegar taste. The wine preserver contains enough gas to last for years of sealing many bottles.

2016 Polish morning glory study found 3x higher amounts of LSH in MG seeds direct from grower/producer vs retail:
Quote:

seeds direct from growers: 1.71 LSH to 5.08 penniclavine ratio
seeds off retail racks: 0.54 LSH to 4.75 penniclavine ratio



Immediately vacuum pack and freeze freshly picked dark hard black seeds off vine to preserve potency indefinitely.

Erowid report:
Quote:

400 older dried seeds is similar to a little less than one hit LSD. 400 fresh off vine is like about 2 or three hits.




dmthead420:
Quote:

Seems this does do alot more, its alot more refined, clean, less body high all mind high.. i extracted 700 riveas into 100 ml of lemon juice , 50ml water .. that sat 9hrs in the fridge(water stayed the color of lemon juice but smelled like alkaloids) i filtered and added 100ml of sherry wine and that sat 6hours..

A buddy and i sampled 12ml of this and the effect is way different from just eating the seeds or just a simple water extract..

No body feelings AT ALL, not even the normal body buzz.. just a extreme lsd like head and abstract thoughts, better sense of understanding.... Real soon i am def going to try a large dose ..I Feel GreaT...I will no longer do it any other way.....my friend says the same.




Norman said on 16 September 2019:
Quote:

Years ago I stumbled across a simple method for dosing HBWR.
Grind the seeds and cover them with white wine, let sit in the fridge for a day or so, shaking occasionally, decant, filter and drink.
No nausea no aches no vasoconstriction.
I am now off alcohol completely so I’m thinking of an alternative method short of a full on extraction.
I’m convinced that something in the wine besides water and alcohol is what makes the trip so clean. I’ve tried twelve percent water alcohol mixes in the past and still had the nasty side effects and at the same time the trip is not as strong.
I’m thinking acetaldehyde and or tartaric acid may be involved or at least a good place to start.
Any thought on what chemically may be going on?




Vecktor (advanced chemist):
Quote:

You have probably rediscovered something that has long been a curiosity, for example on the now defunct blacklight site there was TLC posted of morning glory seed extract treated with methanol, acetaldehyde-methanol or with acetaldehyde-methanol-water, the extract treated with acetaldehyde-methanol showed a clear difference in the alkaloid profile, with a shift to several new non polar spots which couldn't be identified. IIRC Erhlichs was used to develop the plates so these were indole compounds.




69ron:
Quote:

I know some of you out there are apt to believe the statements above because you've failed at making LSH and those statements above help you feel better about you're failure. Don't fall victim to that kind of crap. Try it again. Find out what you did wrong. When it works, the difference is HUGE, not a tiny difference, the experience is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. SWIM knows the effects of LSA and LSD very well. He’s used them many times. He guarantees that when the reaction works, there is NO NOTICEABLE LSA left at all in the experience. It becomes almost identical to an LSD experience at low doses. Totally different from LSA.

According to Albert Hofmann (the inventor of LSD), LSH is an adduct of LSA and acetaldehyde. Adducts are very simple to make. You just mix them in solution, that's all.

The effect of adding acetaldehyde is HUGE. SWIM cannot feel any leftover LSA when the process is done right. So, like I said, I think those guys don't know what they're talking about and I believe Hoffman does, and that LSH is an adduct of LSA and acetaldehyde and nothing more. No complex reaction is needed to make it. You just mix the two together and LSH forms. And I believe all of the LSA forms LSH, not just a small amount of it because you cannot feel any of the effects of LSA after this is done right.

When the conversion from LSA to LSH is complete it feels COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The reason some people can't tell the difference is because their conversion failed. It doesn't always works, but when it does, the difference in effects are night and day. No one would ever think the effects of LSH are anything at all like LSA. It's that different.




fastandbulbous (chem wizard from bluelight):
Quote:

Apparently N-(1-hydroxyethyl)lysergamide (LSH) is an adduct compound formed from lysergamide (lysergic acid amide, LSA/LAA, LA-111) and acetaldehyde. This hints towards the idea that isn't the most stable of compounds, but would be pretty easily formed by the combination of lysergamide (LSA) & acetaldehyde under physiological conditions (ie a way to get much more & better psychedelic activity from any lysergamide extracted from seed sources).




Chemist Peter Webster who spoke at the LSD symposium:
Quote:

LSH is a labile adduct of ergine (LSA) and acetaldehyde.




Mid April: I am growing a small fence line of heavenly blue morning glory, so I will let you all know how my new dream experiences go this October or November when I pick them out of the pods once hard and black, then immediately freeze them. The seeds all sprouted only 1 week after planting the seeds in the 75% miracle grow mixed with 25% cow manure compost, both from big box home store. I dug a small 2 to 3" trench into ground, and filled it with the soil mix, planted one seed every few inches, 95% of them sprouted one week later after watering them daily. I feed them 1 tablespoon of miracle grow powder mixed into 1 gallon of water in watering can x once a month only. This will yield seeds of very high potency.

The application of NPK fertilizer (miracle grow) + composted cattle manure increased crop yield by 48.9% compared to NPK fertilizer alone ---> from 2017 Frontiers in Microbiology, 05 Sept 2017 "Composted Cattle Manure Increases Microbial Activity and Soil Fertility." Some users report that their plants grew three times in size once they added miracle grow soil to their existing potting soil.

As you can see, I used zinc #212 "screw eyes" from hardware section of big box store screwed into fence after drilling a tiny hole for each one, and strung fishing line inbetween the eyelits, this supports the vine, this is how I have grown for years. Train the vine horizontally on the fishing line if you want and once the vine reaches top of 5' fence, it can cross over top of fence and continue to grow or droop downwards on opposite side, for many extra feet of growth.

Steps in the morning glory extraction (see very bottom attached photo):

I would suggest doing this under low light conditions, I personally replace a lamp in room with an LED Red bulb I found at grocery store in hardware section for five dollars when normally doing this.

1. eight grams weighed out on folded over paper plate, then hammered in between plate on concrete with hammer.

2. then the hammered mush was further ground in coffee grinder.

3. mush sitting in one half pint tall jar. (these jars can be found in canning section of stores)

4. 2 oz (60ml) of cold sherry wine added to mush and transferred to fridge for 20 minutes, shook hard every 5 minutes. (Shake hard three times or every 5 minutes during the 20 minute soak)

5. after 20 minutes in fridge observe course debris at bottom.

6. after 20 minutes in fridge, then filtered thru a cotton ball in a funnel, press on cotton ball using straw when dripping stops to get all remaining light colored wine solution out.

7. observe wine solution dripping thru cotton ball, solution is light colored and free of nauseating to the stomach and intestines debris!

8. closeup of 1st cotton ball in funnel after filtration, it took out ALOT of dark colored debris that is nauseating to stomach and intestines.

9. closeup of first cotton ball used for filtration, super dirty black at top 1/3rd portion.

10. first cotton ball changed out half way thru process, as it clogged, then replaced with a 2nd cotton ball to filter out remaining liquid which was in the funnel.

11. The end! 1.5 oz liquid collected from starting 2.0 oz, put back into fridge until use. Heavy nutty flavor, 100 percent free of nauseating to the stomach and intestines debris. All the actives remain in solution while the debris has all been eliminated. Prepare for a very euphoric and lucid visual trip with deep insights...combines extremely well with other entheogens as well.

12) Wine solution when dabbed on cue tip and touched to paper plate, glows bright blue

13) Her, underground house DJ

Pics appear to be posted backwards, no matter how I re-list them, 1st photo at very right, then in sequence from right to left. Very bottom photo of screen = step #2 the coffee grinder.

Stay true to yourself, Love, Peace and Music
http://www.friskyradio.com







--------------------------------------------
part 9: 20 minute visionary visit from a dead Aztec Shaman
--------------------------------------------

This is how I got into growing morning glory, thought would share as I feel it was more a message from the Aztec Shaman, also goes to show the visual power of high dose LSD made from ergot alkaloids, this really happened.

Over 20 years ago, girlfriend and I both dropped 10 hits each of super old 15 year old decomposed acid given to us by a dear friend, he had stored it in between the pages of a book all that time without using a baggie, when held in front of blacklight, only around 60% of each blotter glowed, rest decomposed. It had a sick feeling for the first 2 hours, but then it worked and skyrocketed us to a higher divine plane, it was very strong.

She and I both saw the exact same vision for 20 minutes straight which had formed out of the shadows cast by the fake Christmas tree lights onto the wall--a 20 minute "schooling" by an ancient powerful & spiritually prominent Shaman from Aztec era --- I have never had an experience like that ever again to this day--it was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

The Shaman sat on a living chair made of spirit animals (birds, jaguars, otters, pumas, macaws, toucans) that morphed into other animals constantly, to the left and right of him were centaurs (half animal below, half naked female above), the great Pyramid of the Aztec capital behind him, and he showed me the rise and fall of several civilizations throughout time--and what is even more amazing--is that we both saw the exact same vision.

The Shaman wore a huge beautiful headdress made of feathers and the detail of the 20 minute animated vision was beyond 4k, and extremely detailed--it was also the vision in which I saw snakevines behind the centaurs, and before the Shaman left us at the end, he motioned to me with his eyes to look to the right of the living room out the window into the patio area where I had an empty garden plot--he was trying to tell me to plant entheogenic plants in the plot--that spring, summer & fall I grew morning glory in that plot on a large wide & tall wooden trellis cemented into the ground.

His point in showing me the rise and fall of the different civilizations was that I believe he was trying to tell me that "if humanity is to survive, the only hope is a Spiritual Solution".


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 08:07 PM)


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OfflineTheMagicConch
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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27279253 - 04/23/21 02:37 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

This is a load of awesome info! Thanks!


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: TheMagicConch]
    #27279840 - 04/23/21 11:42 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

THH is the best harmaline or MAOI for psychedelic journies for me, they called it telepanine for a reason.


--------------------
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Go ahead and PM me or ask about it, as well as microdosing LSD.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27280726 - 04/24/21 08:52 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Wow, thanks Tregar! This is the first I'm hearing about HPBCD and I'm already a huge fan of THH. I've been praising it for years and you've very clearly summarized why it is so special. In my experience, oral Caapi extracts containing THH are my favorite way to take DMT. People that have have only tried syrian rue are truly missing out. Mescaline is the only thing that can compete with THH Ayahuasca so my mind is blown to learn that you can combine THH with mescaline too! Have you ever taken Ayahuasca and cactus at the same time? I vaporized DMT on cactus and it is a combination that I can only describe as sacred.

Can you please PM me some advice on where to source HPBCD and THH? I have one caapi/THH vendor but it's sporadic. I'm all in for supporting the development of these experiences in modern society. The 60-90 minute trip duration sounds like a great option when smoking is too short and eating is too long.

I'm looking forward to experimenting with the HPBCD later. I have some questions: 

Can you clarify how complexed DMT freebase is stronger than say, DMT fumarate when taken orally? If the complexing is just to make it water soluble, wouldn't both options be equal when swallowed?
Why don't people sublingually take DMT salts?
Would the ethanol-prepared complexed DMT be dry enough to insufflate?
Could it be made into a nasal spray or inhaler?

"With Insufflation, sublingual or rectal, DMT is not broken down by monoamine oxidase."
Doesn't inhaling also bypass the MAO? I know from experience that harmine also potentiates and extends DMT inhaled through the lungs. So there must be MAO either in the lungs or blood stream. Makes me think MAOI's are a universal potentiator; even if you smoke, snort, sub or boof.


Edited by Icon (04/24/21 09:32 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Icon]
    #27280869 - 04/24/21 11:59 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

HPBCD can be purchased online, or eBay, without arousing any sort of suspicion.


--------------------
My Daily Stack: Rhodiola Rosea, True Calm, Ginkgo Biloba, Fresh Bee Pollen, Lions Mane/Reishi/Chaga/Cordyceps Complex, Kanna, Full Spectrum Multivitamin, Full Spectrum Omega Fatty Acids, Zyflamend Full Body Support, Turmeric and Black Pepper Complex, Ashwaghanda, Skullcap, Magnolia Bark, NAC, Beta-Carotene, Potassium and Magnesium.

Go ahead and PM me or ask about it, as well as microdosing LSD.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Typerwritermonky] * 1
    #27281212 - 04/25/21 09:41 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Thanks for comments TheMagicConch, typewritermonkey (I know you, good to see you again!), Icon, RoadAppleSnapple & Jomanda1990. Very nice to meet you all.

Icon said:
Quote:

...so my mind is blown to learn that you can combine THH with mescaline too!..the 60-90 minute trip duration sounds like a great option when smoking is too short and eating is too long.


Yes, I've combined 250mg of tetrahydroharmine (taken 1 hour after san pedro or brigesii tea), remarkable combination, makes a 250mg cactus tea feel like 400mg of cactus tea. I've seen the receptorome data for THH and mescaline in cactus, they overlap each other at all the A2A-A2C adrenal/beauty/aesthetic sites and both block serotonin strongly, perhaps why they work together so well. Do not take both at same time as to avoid any minor RIMA or MAOI alkaloids from the cactus interacting with the SRI which is THH, I've accidentaly done that before, faster heart beat for several hours, so stagger by taking THH one hour later. Yes Icon, agree the longer duration is great.:smile:

Question:
Quote:

Interesting read. This might sound silly but if the goal from the cyclodextrin is to solubilize the freebase DMT then why not just convert the freebase into its salt form and thus it will easily dissolve? Why doesn't DMT salt work for sublingual route?



Great idea, I used HPBCD over salting, only because I have past experience complexing prohormones to HPBCD, it's fast (30 seconds) and works well, as mentioned earlier, no burn or scarring, under tongue felt fine afterwards and next day. I would encourage someone who has access to both to do a study and compare each method: HPBCD complexed DMT to the salt form.

30mg HPBCD DMT under tongue was quite strong, WAY stronger than 30mg DMT I have taken orally with RIMA: harmine & SRI: thh combo, as mentioned in sublingual viagra study above, much less of the drug is needed when used sublingually and it starts working in only 1/2 the time of an oral pharmaceutical.

Icon, if you can't make the THH yourself, just google it I would imagine. Auction sites and elsewhere have the HPBCD.

Here is a pic of my 1kg tub of HPBCD:


Edited by tregar (04/25/21 08:51 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27281631 - 04/25/21 04:57 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Whoa!


This is incredible. Especially for folks who are uncomfortable with an MAOI, or cannot take them.

And for people who cant rip a bong etc without coughing their brain onto the carpet for 10min. (me).


So, basic idea is that one would acquire HPBCD (basically a chemical shell) and mix it with their extracted DMT 7:1. Hold under the tongue for 15min. 90min (ish) experience ensues. No hacking up a lung; no worries about maoi issues.


Thank you for sharing.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: RoadAppleSnapple]
    #27281674 - 04/25/21 05:29 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

@tregar

I saw this and was thinking "there goes tregar with his HPBCD experiments again!" lol.

I'm pretty sure nobody ever gave you credit for the 25inBOME HPBCD complex that exploded the nbome markets.  It may have been used for not good things, but science is for science sake.


--------------------
My Daily Stack: Rhodiola Rosea, True Calm, Ginkgo Biloba, Fresh Bee Pollen, Lions Mane/Reishi/Chaga/Cordyceps Complex, Kanna, Full Spectrum Multivitamin, Full Spectrum Omega Fatty Acids, Zyflamend Full Body Support, Turmeric and Black Pepper Complex, Ashwaghanda, Skullcap, Magnolia Bark, NAC, Beta-Carotene, Potassium and Magnesium.

Go ahead and PM me or ask about it, as well as microdosing LSD.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Typerwritermonky]
    #27281699 - 04/25/21 05:48 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Yes Typewritermonky, unfortunately, I was the one who introduced HPBCD complexing to 25i-nbome to the bluelight forum back in Jan of 2012, see "the big and dandly 25i-nbome thread, page 28" after that virtually every vendor in the world of the nbome's took my idea and begin marketing them as such.

I hope this thread will make up for that adversity. I flushed mine down the toilet long, long ago. I despise that nasty compound. Most of you have probably noticed I work with natural psychedelics, I avoid all man-made psychedelics.

RoadAppleSnapple said:
Quote:

Whoa!

This is incredible. Especially for folks who are uncomfortable with an MAOI, or cannot take them.

And for people who cant rip a bong etc without coughing their brain onto the carpet for 10min. (me).

So, basic idea is that one would acquire HPBCD (basically a chemical shell) and mix it with their extracted DMT 7:1. Hold under the tongue for 15min. 90min (ish) experience ensues. No hacking up a lung; no worries about maoi issues.

Thank you for sharing.


Yes, you nailed it RoadAppleSnapple, thanks for comments. Don't forget to take from 150 to 250mg tetrahydroharmine around 30 minutes before the sublingual under the tongue HPBCD DMT, music will sound incredible, divine transcendence and visions, very similar to cactus tea.


Edited by tregar (05/11/21 06:18 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27281844 - 04/25/21 08:32 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Wow, we already got amazing info from you previous thread on consuming LSH from Morning glory seeds, and now this way of avoiding MAOI altogether when consuming oral DMT. I can only say: Thank you so much!


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27282657 - 04/26/21 02:23 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Quote:

tregar said:
Yes Typewritermonky, unfortunately, I was the one who introduced HPBCD complexing to 25i-nbome to the bluelight forum back in Jan of 2012, see "the big and dandly 25i-nbome thread, page 25" after that virtually every vendor in the world of the nbome's took my idea and begin marketing them as such.

I hope this thread will make up for that adversity. I flushed mine down the toilet long, long ago. I despise that nasty compound. Most of you have probably noticed I work with natural psychedelics, I avoid all man-made psychedelics.

RoadAppleSnapple said:
Quote:

Whoa!

This is incredible. Especially for folks who are uncomfortable with an MAOI, or cannot take them.

And for people who cant rip a bong etc without coughing their brain onto the carpet for 10min. (me).

So, basic idea is that one would acquire HPBCD (basically a chemical shell) and mix it with their extracted DMT 7:1. Hold under the tongue for 15min. 90min (ish) experience ensues. No hacking up a lung; no worries about maoi issues.

Thank you for sharing.


Yes, you nailed it RoadAppleSnapple, thanks for comments. Don't forget to take from 150 to 250mg tetrahydroharmine around 30 minutes before the sublingual under the tongue HPBCD DMT, music will sound incredible, divine transcendence and visions, very similar to cactus tea.




Oh yeah I remember, back in 2011 I had 1g of 25inBOME and you were pretty much the only other person to be working with it on the web.  I ordered some HPBCD maybe early 2012 a day after you made that post, so I musta been like the second person to do it.  Interesting enough, all my experiments with 25i with myself and others turned out wonderful, I really thought there was something special to it.  My friend was going to do a study for it because it was still legal, seriously everybody loved it!

But then, one guy who was taking some from me said he "lost" the 11 hits I gave him.  I would never give anybody too much at once.. so I gave him some more.  The guy ended up taking like 9 at once (they were 150ug each) and he was fine, but I could tell something changed in him after that experiment.  I locked everything down, and then I found Nichols research showing the 5HT2 load that 25inBOME had.  I then ceased experiments, not willing to destroy anybodys receptor sites.  I destroyed the 20k hits I had left, and ended the experiment forever.
We were taking doses of like 300ug, maybe 450ug MAX.  Online, folks were selling it at 1mg a tab!!!!!  WAY too high of a dosage.  Honestly, it had nothing on mescaline/LSD etc. - but it had colorful visuals, interesting patterns, and really impressive CEV and most of the traits of a typical psychedelic without any of the headspace.

I'm very excited to try this to be honest, I love DMT, but don't take it very much - this timeframe without the MAI seems perfect for me!


--------------------
My Daily Stack: Rhodiola Rosea, True Calm, Ginkgo Biloba, Fresh Bee Pollen, Lions Mane/Reishi/Chaga/Cordyceps Complex, Kanna, Full Spectrum Multivitamin, Full Spectrum Omega Fatty Acids, Zyflamend Full Body Support, Turmeric and Black Pepper Complex, Ashwaghanda, Skullcap, Magnolia Bark, NAC, Beta-Carotene, Potassium and Magnesium.

Go ahead and PM me or ask about it, as well as microdosing LSD.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Typerwritermonky]
    #27283133 - 04/26/21 10:03 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Thank you for this tek, Tregar!

I have a (small) bottle of HPBCD laying around from an experiment a few of us worked on to complex salvinorin-A on the Nexus a few years ago.  I'll give this a shot sometime soon :-)

Perhaps this next part should be a separate post, but maybe you or someone else on here will know this answer quickly...I have a small bag of material that I believe was included as a gift when purchasing some vine/leaves/rue seeds/etc. from an online botanical store a decade ago.  It's labeled 'Banisteriopsis Caapi AYAHUASCA "White" Vine (4) Extract 10:1 (5 gram)'.  It looks kind of like finely ground up rue.  I'm assuming it is mainly harmine and THH with some harmaline, but maybe someone here would have a better idea if this is an accurate assumption?

I tested it recently with my intention being to smoke a small bowl prior to smoking some n,n-dmt to see if it would extend and potentiate the trip.  I assumed it would be like smoking caapi leaves prior to dmt, which tends to affect the trip a bit for me.

However, smoking the caapi vine extract gave me an unexpected trip itself - I was caught completely off-guard.  Your description of a 'diamond-like' quality reminds me of how the visuals felt/looked. It was similar to a low-dose dmt trip.

So if I were to eat this prior to using the complexed dmt, how much would you suggest using?  And/or should I try this by itself w/o the dmt first?  Would you take the 10x into account and take say 30mg of this?


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: physics envy]
    #27283220 - 04/26/21 11:45 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #27283394 - 04/27/21 05:00 AM (1 month, 21 days ago)

why not just use dmt salt ie water soluble? the compound u are talking about is for fats..ie test is fat injection


why not just snort cmt hcl like a gentlmen lol.. or just sublingually as water souble  and if taking with caapi extract chances are just eating ayahuasca. as caapi would be unneeded if went direcctly to blood..  or simply effects of the thh

long story short if arent seeing elves its not a dmt trip :wink:


Edited by the man (04/27/21 05:09 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27283417 - 04/27/21 06:40 AM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Physics envy said:
Quote:

Thank you for this tek, Tregar!

I have a (small) bottle of HPBCD laying around from an experiment a few of us worked on to complex salvinorin-A on the Nexus a few years ago.  I'll give this a shot sometime soon :-)

Perhaps this next part should be a separate post, but maybe you or someone else on here will know this answer quickly...I have a small bag of material that I believe was included as a gift when purchasing some vine/leaves/rue seeds/etc. from an online botanical store a decade ago.  It's labeled 'Banisteriopsis Caapi AYAHUASCA "White" Vine (4) Extract 10:1 (5 gram)'.  It looks kind of like finely ground up rue.  I'm assuming it is mainly harmine and THH with some harmaline, but maybe someone here would have a better idea if this is an accurate assumption?

I tested it recently with my intention being to smoke a small bowl prior to smoking some n,n-dmt to see if it would extend and potentiate the trip.  I assumed it would be like smoking caapi leaves prior to dmt, which tends to affect the trip a bit for me.

However, smoking the caapi vine extract gave me an unexpected trip itself - I was caught completely off-guard.  Your description of a 'diamond-like' quality reminds me of how the visuals felt/looked. It was similar to a low-dose dmt trip.

So if I were to eat this prior to using the complexed dmt, how much would you suggest using?  And/or should I try this by itself w/o the dmt first?  Would you take the 10x into account and take say 30mg of this?




Typewritermonky, thanks for your comments  on page 1 and please report back should  you try this either sublingually or orally with a harmala or caapi combination.

The man, I've spent an hour looking up countless threads on sublingual or nasal DMT fumarate and they were disappointing reads, I have no explanation for why the HPBCD complexed DMT works so well. P.S. I vastly prefer Ayahuasca imho. I've had over 70 Ayahuasca journeys now.

Physics envy, thanks for your experience, Yes, there is a "diamondlike quality" with THH, for me this is seen around 150 to 250mg, 250mg to 300mg results in intense closed eye visions, all of this with tetrahydroharmine alone by itself, in TIHKAL, 300mg of THH was equated to the visionary power of 100mg harmaline, but without all the nausea and dizziness

Unfortunately, I cannot tell  you how much of the 10x caapi extract you have to use, I would simply say to keep experimenting.

If anyone gets anything out of this thread, to remember that this can be a super ALTERNATIVE  to making the DMT fumarate salt.

Keep in mind that making the fumarate salt is a somewhat long involved process with many steps, whereas using HPBCD, you can form a water soluble DMT compound in 30 seconds that can even be used orally with a RIMA: (example, harmine) and SRI: (THH) combination, with everything dissolved all together in a hot tea, all taken at the exact same time (just as the Shaman's do) for a powerful Ayahuasca, that will be quite potent orally.

Thanks for reading tyrannicalrex, I know you too!


Edited by tregar (04/27/21 08:14 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27283795 - 04/27/21 01:17 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

I imagine the fumarate produces more profound experience compared to your complex in effects?  again if actually going intoyour blood effectively there is zero need for an maoi other then to maybe make it last longer like aya? however likely what is ahppening is u are just eating small doses of aya ie dmt and cappi in ur mouth that u end  up eating..

guess a question would be why do u need caapi? is caapi needed to smoke? or in fumurate preps? why is dmt effective smoked?

dmt has been sniffed for thousands of years...


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27283829 - 04/27/21 01:48 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Hey to be clear, because I'm rereading and second guessing -


I have a little dmt that I extracted from bark. I'm new to dmt. I do not want to take thh or an maoi, nor do I have access. I also have issues smoking anything - I cough and cough and cough. I was going to deal with the coughing hoping it wouldnt be too bad if I was carful not to burn the spice.

This hpbcd would allow me a comfortable experience (and work w/o thh or harmala or caapi etc) sublingually. Correct?


Sorry, greenhorn here, don't want to waste even a crumb. Appreciate the guidance, greatly. :takingnotes::hug:


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: RoadAppleSnapple]
    #27283846 - 04/27/21 02:10 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

Neat info tregar...thanks for sharing!! I remember your thread on bluelight for complexing 25i


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: redeyesmj] * 1
    #27289484 - 05/01/21 07:51 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Yes, you have it down RoadAppleSnapple.

redeyesmj said:
Quote:

Neat info tregar...thanks for sharing!! I remember your thread on bluelight for complexing 25i



Thanks redeyesmj.

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Edited by tregar (05/02/21 10:08 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27291303 - 05/03/21 03:00 AM (1 month, 15 days ago)

see below:


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:59 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27292261 - 05/03/21 05:11 PM (1 month, 14 days ago)

HPBCD only forms inclusion complexes with non-polar compounds. With a hydrophobic interior and hydrophilic exterior, cyclodextrins form complexes with hydrophobic compounds. Hydrophobic molecules are usually nonpolar, like freebase DMT for example. Hydrophobic literally means “the fear of water”

HPBCD is a new technology that allows freebase nonpolar drugs like DMT to be trapped by the cyclodextrin inner hydrophobic cavity which is composed of an inner "non-polar trap", and "outer polar cavity or hydrophilic exterior cone" which allows the normally water insoluble DMT to be made 100% water soluble.

As mentioned earlier, only a portion or "tail end" of DMT molecule needs to be trapped in the HPBCD cone...I wonder if more than one DMT molecule can trap itself inside "just one single HPBCD molecular cone"? Maybe downwardsfromzero has an answer.

If so, I can see how much less HPBCD can be used. The DMT molecule is very small compared to the inner HPBCD cone. Using much less HPBCD would prove a valuable experiment.

Notice the authors of the ofloxacin HPBCD study not only used a 1:1 molar ratio like I copied, but they also "kneaded" or mashed the HPBCD into the host drug with their hands, just like I did with the HPBCD placed on top the DMT in the spoon with many drops of water...I used the end of a spoon to crush and mash or knead it all together into a sticky glob (just like cartoon above) with 30 seconds of stirring with a toothpick, then placed sticky glob under tongue for 15 minutes.

I can't stress how important it is to use "clean dmt". As mentioned in post #1, used DMT that had been cleaned up using a sodium carbonate wash, you don't want any remnants of sodium hydroxide going directly into your bloodstream, the simple sodium carbonate wash gets rid of any lingering residue (should there be any) from DMT crystals.

Girl & boy caught in waterpark tornado funnel ride, picture host drug being caught in HPBCD cone.


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:58 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27294963 - 05/05/21 05:05 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

why would maoi be needed if going into blood?  dont think this works my man passing hormones bucally is much diffeent..


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27295023 - 05/05/21 06:33 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

THH is an SRI, it's not a RIMA or MAOI. It's the 2nd highest ingredient in Caapi, it hits many of the same receptors as mescaline receptorome data has shown, it blocks serotonin like mescaline, dmt does not block serotonin.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27298069 - 05/07/21 06:41 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

The combination of the two (oral THH taken 1 hour earlier) and sublingual under the tongue DMT for 15 minutes results in the "full monty", will give you an experience like strong cactus tea or true Ayahuasca, the full mind expansion transcendence. This is what a lot of people don't understand, is that Ayahuasca is teamwork between the various alkaloids.

Tetrahydroharmine was called by one researcher "the tryptamine of the beta-carboline world" to give an example of its remarkable visionary properties. It's an isomer of a hormonal-like compound found in the brain naturally, it's what gives Ayahuasca her telapathine or telethapy properties and hours of dream-like realistic closed eye visionary visions.

I've taken 300mg of THH on it's own many times and for hours with eyes closed I view endless dream-like visions, like slow and high speed movies being played for 2 hours, the detail is way beyond 4k, mind-blowing vistas...totally unlike normal dreams, she seems to tap into the "Akashic record" of the universe, the ether where all events, past, present, and future are stored...she shows you artwork, architecture, nature, culture, fantasy, history, the future, spiritual, supernatural. The visions are also characterized by the extraordinary beauty that they manifest.

DMT according to two studies posted in part 2 does not block serotonin on it's own, but THH does (like ibogaine, cactus, LSD, mushrooms), serotonin blocking results in stimulation and the breaking down of the survival filters or barriers in the mind, the combination of the two results in not just 20% receptor stimulation from the DMT alone, but 100% receptor stimulation, as 5-ht1a inhibition (serotonin blockage) makes up over 80% of brain 5-ht according to LSD scientist Dr. Nichols. Tetrahydroharmine has also been shown to agonize the A2A-A2C receptors, just like mescaline, they have numerous receptorome similarities.

You will notice with the combination of the two that music sounds incredible, closed eye visions are seen like those of "true Ayahuasca" described in "Antipodes of the Mind" by Benny Shanon, or cactus tea. Open eyed beauty is profound, impossible neon colors not seen on this earth become apparent.

Last night with a combination 250mg oral tetrahydroharmine dosage, and sublingual HPBCD DMT dosage of 50mg, when I waved my hand, I saw colored fractals inside the tracers. The duration is long with the sublingual DMT, it comes on in 1/2 the time of an oral dose, and you need much less of the drug than what is needed orally with a RIMA. One of the best parts is that I experience no nausea.

Out of this world impossible bright neon colors are a trait of high dose oral tetrahydroharmine + sublingual HPBCD DMT: neon red-greens, neon orange-blues, neon purple-yellows.


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:57 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27298128 - 05/07/21 08:21 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

well you can mix me up a batch


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27298173 - 05/07/21 09:16 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

you'd dig it it's the bees nees


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27298175 - 05/07/21 09:18 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I envy people who extract dmt it's the most awesome psychedelic maybe except for lsd


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27298176 - 05/07/21 09:18 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

mescaline is a second


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27298237 - 05/07/21 10:08 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I'm about to try cactus/mesc extraction HcL more than likely. I have a couple kilos of MHRB, probably a lifetime supply, lol. I could get 36 grams of DMT from them give or take.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #27299754 - 05/08/21 09:10 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

well you can mix me up a batch


I would love too! But since I can't just buy some HPBCD powder, dirt cheap.

Ferdinando said:
Quote:

mescaline is a second


Full bodied cactus tea from 1 x 12" bridgesii or 2 x 12" medium thickness to 1 x 12" large thickness San Pedro is my absolute favorite, have done over 90 times now over many years, totally bad ass. The 250mg oral THH + 30mg on up sublingual HPBCD DMT ranks in the same, both equally VERY bad ass. I keep a trip diary over a period of many years. I've done Ayahuasca x 70 times now.

Tyrannicalrex said:
Quote:

I'm about to try cactus/mesc extraction HcL more than likely. I have a couple kilos of MHRB, probably a lifetime supply, lol. I could get 36 grams of DMT from them give or take.


Tell you what, just cut the cactus down the sides (de-core it), cut into chunks, peel the skin off each chunck, and boil the pieces for 1 hour, then strain thru a strainer and drink--so easy and kicks much ass--full bodied complete spectrum. Also, so glad to hear you have a lifetime supply of MHRB.


Edited by tregar (05/08/21 12:34 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27301722 - 05/09/21 05:00 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

1) For the HPBCD DMT experiments, prefer using "clean DMT" or DMT that has been cleaned using a sodium carbonate wash, procedure below:

2) PKA of DMT is 8.75 or so, so please do not use a sodium bicarbonate wash -- it will eat up most of your DMT, as ph of bicarb is not high enough, it needs to be 1 to 2 points higher than PKA of DMT, at 11 or 11.5 or so is perfect, where 100% sodium carbonate PH is at, found in pool isle of home box store.

3) As performing a "sodium carbonate wash" on crystals AFTER they are freeze precipitated is a pain in the ass, will attempt to perform a sodium carbonate wash in real time this time, immediately on the 1st pull, and every pull thereafter.

4) For example, a procedure (based on Noman's or Norman's tek) which yields 1.5g DMT from 150 gram powdered bark: the first pull is using 75ml naptha on 150g powdered bark mixed into 1.7 liter lye water (1.5 x 150g bark = use 225g lye dissolved into the 1.7 liter 150 degree hot water by slowly sprinkling in lye using safety goggles and long chemical resistant gloves that go up each arm, and standing back as far as possible...the hot water will fizz but not boil up) in a 2 Liter erlenmeyer flask (.5 x 150g bark = use 75ml naptha pull for each of the 4 pulls). An erlenmeyer flask makes it easy to do pulls using a long glass pipette, as the top of flask is tapered, so all the naptha collects at the top for easy pull.

Use an electronic thermometer to check the temp of the Lye water bark mix, when the lye water cools down from 150 degree F to around 115 to 110 degree F, then it's time to add your 75ml of naptha, make sure your 2L flask is sitting on a mitten or similar...this makes it easy to swirl your flask to mix the contents, make sure you are using the proper rubber stopper number to seal the top of your flask once you turn it upside down then right side up to mix the contents as well.

Prefer to do a combination of swirling and a couple of upside down then right side up turns of the 2L flask, then once right side up, let the rubber stopper out, and let the stopper just barely sit in the flask (not tight), so gasses can exit. After 1/2 hour, all the 75ml of naptha will migrate & collect at the top of the tapered erlenmeyer flask...use your long glass pipette to collect the naptha, that's it! very easy, no mess, and the tapered erlenmeyer flask and glass pipette with round rubber plunger at the end makes it easy to collect the naptha at the top without collecting any lye water by accident. This is the way a chemist can do it.

to clean...then use 1/4 of the amount of each naptha pull or (0.25 x 75ml pull = use 19ml of warm water at 100 degree F with a dash of sodium carbonate dissolved into it) till ph = 11 to 11.5 of the wash water.

5) So then add the 75ml saturated naptha bark pull into a sep funnel, add 19ml of warm (100 degree F) sodium carbonate solution, and shake & swirl it all together in the sep funnel for 5 seconds, then separate off the bottom layer which will be the sodium carbonate water and dispose of it, and let out the top layer of sodium carbonate washed clean naptha into a 1/2 pint jar, put lid on jar, place in freezer, and freeze precipitate overnight, and collect clean crystals in morning by pouring over a coffee filter attached to a 1/2 pint wide jar with rubber band.

6) Will be using this new batch of real time "sodium carbonate wash cleaned naptha pull" DMT to do a series of HPBCD experiments later this week, will then report back, will be complexing 40mg of DMT to 280mg of HPBCD powder to form a sticky glob, will place under tongue for 15 minutes and take 250mg of tetrahydroharmine 1 hour earlier, and report back.

My procedure:
1) place 40mg of DMT onto a spoon
2) add 1:1 molar ratio of host drug to HPBCD powder, this means 1:7 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD
3) this means 40mg dmt placed on spoon, then add 280mg of HPBCD on top DMT
4) add many drops of water to the mix
5) Knead or crush the HPBCD powder into the dmt using the end of a spoon then stir it all for 30 seconds using a toothpick
6) place sticky glob (HPBCD powder forms sticky complexes) under tongue for 15 minutes
7) the "sticky glob" can be left out and the water will evaporate to leave a solid complex which can be placed under tongue too, but I never do this, I just directly place the sticky glob under tongue right away, 30 second procedure, works extremely well, same way weightlifters used to form HPBCD complexed pro-hormones back in the day before they were banned, for sublingual "under tongue" use.

The sticky HPBCD DMT glob looks similar to the cartoon below.

Erlenmeyer flask tapers towards the top, makes extractions easier using a glass pipette, as all the naptha collects in a narrow band tapered area near the top.


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:56 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27302519 - 05/10/21 08:31 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I wrote about this on the DMT Nexus quite some time ago.  I doubt it was as far back as 2012, though.  Not really sure and am not the least bit motivated to research it.  Someone who is not as lazy as me could do a search.  I thought then that it should work brilliantly, and said so.  I was too chicken-shit to try it out on myself as a guinea pig, though, so let the matter lie.  I still have a VERY large bottle HPBCD in my safe.

Good to know someone with more chutzpah took the next step.

This morning I vaporized 23mg of DMT freebase using my GVG.  The difference between 20mg and 23 mg is the difference between "wow" and "WOW!!" and largely explains my reticence at 68 years of age to overdo this molecule orally (Aya) sublingually as here, or through vaporization. Its steep dose-response curve can really rock your world and today was a good example.  Thought I'd be found in my bed dead at one point as the cold and numbness set in.  Had to force myself to breathe and was on the edge of...well, you know...:eek:

EDITOh for Pete's sake!  The OP's original post referencing this process was the one I started on the Nexus!  DUH.  I guess I should have looked first.  Damn!  2012!  I was ahead of my time.  LOL!

Keep us posted on your efforts, Tregar.  If you can pin down a "comfortable dose" I MIGHT be interested in whipping up a batch and self-administering it >>someday<< to corroborate any results you may publish.
  :popcorn:


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Edited by Nature Boy (05/10/21 08:48 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Nature Boy]
    #27302934 - 05/10/21 01:59 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

FYI: Just so you all know I am not full of hot air, I was the one who introduced HPBCD complexing to 25i-nbome to the bluelight forum back in Jan of 2012, see "the big and dandly 25i-nbome thread, page 25" after that virtually every vendor in the world of the nbome's took my idea and begin marketing them as such.





And where exactly is your post?  Here is page 25.  No mention whatsoever from you or anyone else on that page.

https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/the-big-dandy-25i-nbome-thread.551797/page-25

On the other hand, I had already done this with 25i-NBOME AND bioassayed the results as documented and published in February, 2012 on the nexus, found here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=30071

DIRECT QUOTE:

Hi, all:

I read numerous journal articles and papers on using HPBCD to complex vitamins, steroids, antimetabolites and antibiotics following which I successfully complexed 25i-NBOMe and laid it on blotter at precisely 550 mcg / tab. It was a successful venture and an amazing experience.

It subsequently occurred to me that the only reason MAOI's are needed in conjunction with DMT fumarate or DMT freebase taken ORALLY, is to get around the inhibition in the gut. After all, an MAOI is completely unnecessary when vaporized, administered IV, or even rectally. I then began to consider a sublingual ROI for DMT freebase using HPBCD complexed DMT - and >>NO<< MAOI.

One MAJOR question remains before an attempt can be made. Shockingly few molecules of DMT are probably required for detectable effects. Assuming for the moment that the proposed experiment is a rousing success at introducing DMT into the bloodstream...HOW MUCH COMPLEXED DMT SHOULD CONSTITUTE A FIRST TEST DOSE??? 1 milligram? 10 milligrams??? I have a goodly supply of both materials. I'm scared to try for fear of success without some opinions on a starting dosage attempt, being a conservative psychonaut and a bit of a coward. The complexed DMT would be in ~ 1/2 cc of distilled water.

N.B.


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Edited by Nature Boy (05/10/21 07:08 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27303431 - 05/10/21 08:52 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

This whole thread is super interesting: many thanks. I'll re-read it a few more times.

One simple question: how do you arrive at your recommendations for THH doses? I might have missed an explanation, but I have seen a whole bunch of estimates here. I also checked TIHKAL as well and it says 300mg. Just wondering what your thinking is here.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27303893 - 05/11/21 08:20 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Thanks for comments natureboy and leafraker. My apologies natureboy, the page is #28 of the bluelight thread and not page 25 like I noted.

I understand your psychonaut apprehension natureboy, 30mg is a great starting sublingual under tongue for 15 minute hpbcd dmt dose, 10mg is too weak.

Leafraker, arrived at tetrahydroharmine doses after reading section in tihkal just as you note. 250mg is amazing, 300mg even of just thh on its own results in around 2 hours of continuous dream like visions like slow and high speed movies in monochrome color. The combo of 250 to 300mg thh + 30mg on up sublingual hpbcd dmt resembles true Ayahuasca or high dose cactus tea, wait till u hear music on it...incredible.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27304667 - 05/11/21 07:45 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Glad you have all the materials Natureboy! :cool:

Thanks for reading LeafRaker.

Tomorrow I will be hitting two elves with one stone. I will take not only 70mg of HPBCD DMT orally with 200mg harmine + 250mg tetrahydroharmine orally all dissolved into a hot tea with some crushed vitamin C to dissolve the harmalas, and report back to see if the experience is similar to using an actual Hawaiian psychotria brew (which is always VERY kick ass super strong, all encompassing & very neon colorful with tracers that go onto infinity)...but after it wears off I will then take 30mg on up of sublingual HPBCD DMT to extend the trip, and bring back 60 to 90 minutes of DMT activity.

message to me:
Quote:

What is the point of that procedure anyway to make an edible version of dmt?



This thread shows how to make in 30 seconds what is called HPBCD DMT, using only a spoon, some HPBCD powder, some DMT, and drops of water.

When you for example make a hot tea with some crushed vitamin C to help dissolve the harmine and thh, and add 180 to 230mg harmine to the tea, along with 150 to 250mg of tetrahydroharmine to the tea, and also add 70mg of HPBCD complexed DMT to the hot tea, it could give you a powerful Ayahuasca experience that is VERY similar to using an actual hawaiian psychotria brew, far more powerful and all encompassing than using 70mg of freebase DMT or 70mg of freebase salt formed from fumarate or DMT salt made by dropping DMT freebase into coca cola or orange juice, etc.

What we are beginning to discover is this: The HPBCD "encapsulated and trapped DMT" theoretically could be forming enhanced modes of transport and delivery of DMT similar to how oral psychotria leaf gives an experience that is much more powerful and all encompassing and colorful than using normal plain DMT crystals.

The experiences from the Hawaiian psychotria brew Ayahuasca tea are always +4 to +5 on the Shulgin scale for myself in over 70 Ayahuasca sessions, while multiple experiments with several people in the Clearlight sessions found the DMT extracted crystals gave only mild experiences (+3 max) even when using doses up to 100mg.

I myself even used doses of oral dmt crystals at doses from 70 to 120mg, and found them all mild as well (+3 Shulgin scale) compared to the VERY strong Hawaiian psychotria experiences (30 to 35 gram tea), just like mind-blowing Jungle Ayahuasca.

Clearlight:
Quote:

Experiments that involved several people found the leaf brew form superior to extracted actives, the leaf brews were very strong and powerful & clairavoyant (+5 Shulgin scale), while the extracted actives were mild (+3 Shulgin scale) at best, even up to 100mg. Again, this is poorly understood.



However, the HPBCD complexed DMT seems to greatly alter the transport, absorption & digestion of DMT freebase crystals, resulting in powerful experiences sublingually so far, perhaps even resulting in oral powerful Ayahuasca similar to those brews using actual Hawaiian psychotria leaf in them.

downwardsfromzero wrote:
Quote:

This combined with the HPBCD complexation results (which we really ought to replicate and confirm) makes me wonder whether there are saccharides in leaf brews which perform a similar effect to HPBCD. There is still so much scope for really interesting research here -thanks for posting.


This is indeed fascinating downwardsfromzero, thanks for that keen observation on the sacchardies, perhaps they do function similar to HPBCD? Note: this procedure will work with any freebase molecule that is poorly water soluble, it does not work with already water soluble compounds or salts.

Jagube said:
Quote:

I've seen anecdotal reports of quidded D. cabrerana leaf being active.


Excellent observation Jagube.

69ron posted 8/12/2009:
Quote:

People are getting pleasant DMT effects from sublingual Virola calophylla resin. I don't think it has that much DMT in it. So why does the resin work so well when DMT is so hard to use sublingually?



HPBCD DMT is very strong...I even used 30mg of it sublingually under tongue for 15 minutes and experienced rapid heartbeat & pulse, tryptamine body rush & buzz, dilated pupils, music sounded incredible, had cev's and open eyed euphoria and profound beauty. I took 250mg of tetrahydroharmine 1 hour earlier so it was more like a true Ayahuasca experience, but no nausea.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27304799 - 05/11/21 09:26 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Eagerly awaiting your report, tregar!

This thread has rekindled my interest in this area. I'm now wondering about reviving my old oxidized freebase and some furmate. It seems I might have been right to conserve them all these years.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27305223 - 05/12/21 07:31 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

LeafRaker said:
Quote:

Eagerly awaiting your report, tregar!

This thread has rekindled my interest in this area. I'm now wondering about reviving my old oxidized freebase and some furmate. It seems I might have been right to conserve them all these years.


Thanks LeafRaker, I say go for it! FYI: on page 2 on post ##27301722 (the post with the 3 pics) I give simple no mess instructions for a yield of 1.5g DMT from 150 grams powdered bark.

I bought my 1kg tub from a supplier of sports supplements 12 years ago, as it was sold right along side pro-hormones which converted to testosterone in the body at a rate of 95% compared to testosterone alone, as you guessed, all pro-hormones like 4-androstenediol were all later banned.

I've been a weight lifter/bodybuilder since my early 20's when I was a full time lifeguard on the beach (love the water, water spirit)...currently my bodyweight is 220lbs at 12 percent bodyfat, follow a strict Palumbo high-protein keto-diet daily for years, 1.2 grams protein per lb of bodyweight per day. I get all my meals and 65 gram protein shake within an 8 hour window everyday (6am till 3pm), and fast after 3pm till I wake up the next day. This keeps my bodyfat low yet retains all the muscle. I run on the treadmill during the fasting period once I get home for 20 to 30 minutes at least 3 times a week. I take bcaa's before I hop on treadmill to keep any muscle from breaking down.

Even at this weight, I still find that 200mg of harmine completely inhibits the monoamine oxidase in my body...in all of my 70 Ayahuasca experiences using 200mg harmine + 220 to 250mg tetrahydroharmine over many years, I find the alkaloid amounts to completely activate 30 to 35 grams of Hawaiian psychotria to the full extent.

Later tonight I will take 200mg harmine + 250mg tetrahydroharmine + 70mg HPBCD DMT (490mg HPBCD powder kneaded, crushed & stirred for 30 seconds into 70mg DMT on a spoon with many drops of water forming a sticky complex for the oral use)...I will report back. Several papers I have read indicate that HPBCD complexed pharmaceuticals even when delivered orally out-performed normal oral versions of themselves by many factors.

I always mix everything together into a 2oz hot water tea with a dash of crushed vitamin C to dissolve the freebase harmine and THH, along with the HPBCD DMT, stir all together well in the hot water tea, just as the Shaman's do, take all together at exact same time, works incredibly well, far better than spacing out the DMT from the harmalas, I should know, I ran several experiments years ago, and the tea where ALL was mixed together outperformed all the other trials consistently.


Edited by tregar (05/12/21 08:01 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27305462 - 05/12/21 11:20 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Here is the HPBCD DMT solution ready to go for tonight

1. Materials: 70mg DMT for oral use, 490mg HPBCD, 1ml pipette, 0.25 to 0.50ml VERY HOT water from a nearby microwaved coffee cup of hot water.

2. Made a 1:1 molar ratio (1:7 mg ratio) of host drug DMT to HPBCD by adding 70mg of DMT onto spoon, added 490mg of HPBCD on top DMT, add 0.500 ml of VERY HOT near boiling water (10 drops) drawn up with pipette from microwaved water in coffee cup. For sublingual use don't overdo the drops, 0.250ml of water (5 drops) is plenty...if you accidentally add too much water then run a fan over spoon to evaporate some of it off.

Knead, mash and stir it all together for 2 minutes using the end of a spoon, notice the two separate powders turn into a homogenous transparent solution when done mashing.

3. For oral use, add the spoon of HPBCD DMT water to 2oz of hot water (120 degree F), it will all dissolve instantly into a totally clear homogenous solution (bottom left photo), take PH of water, it is safe to drink, reads ph = 8 to 9.

4. Store in fridge till later, when ready heat water back up in a pyrex dish on stove to 110 degree F or so, add 200mg harmine + 150 to 250mg tetrahydroharmine, add 150mg pure ascorbic acid (vit C) to help dissolve harmine & THH if they are in freebase form.

Stir all together and consume in dreams, just the way the Shaman's do it, take it ALL mixed together at the exact same time, works incredibly well this way, have over 70 experiences with Ayahuasca over many years.

5. Several papers I have read indicated that HPBCD complexed pharmaceuticals even when delivered orally out-performed normal oral versions of themselves by many factors.

490mg of HPBCD powder may look like alot when laid out, but when even just a few drops of hot water is added to it, it shrinks into a small sticky clear liquid mass as it is derived from a sugar molecule.

With the Ayahuasca journey, she guides you to the existence of a higher spiritual plane...recognized to which insight can and must be gained, yet it does not reject the mundane reality as inferior or empty. This joyous embracement of the world of form leads to words like profound pleasure, beauty and joy. This loving reappraisal of the worldly forms leads the way to higher divine planes.

Last pic: beautiful Shaman woman


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:51 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27305992 - 05/12/21 06:16 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

The experiment was a success...I took the 70mg DMT complexed to 490mg of HPBCD all kneaded/crushed using end of another spoon...and mixed on a spoon for 2 minutes with 0.500 milliliter of VERY HOT near boiling water (around 10 drops of water). What I do is heat up a bit of water in a coffee cup in microwave & draw up drops of it using pipette. I read using hot water speeds & aids the mixing of the HPBCD to host drug.

I added the 0.5ml spoon full completely clear HPBCD DMT solution to 2oz of 120 degree hot water...this then immediately turned into 100% transparent water when it hit the hot liquid in the pyrex cup...This was stored in fridge until use...then when I was ready, the 2oz clear transparent liquid HPBCD DMT water solution, once re-heated up in pyrex pot on stove, to this was then added 200mg harmine + 250mg THH and also 150mg of pure ascorbic acid (vit C) to help dissolve the freebase harmine + thh.

I gulped it down in one shot...there was virtually no taste! I think the HPBCD completely masked the taste of the nasty DMT...I was shocked...took it all together at same time at 3:30, I'm writing this 3 hours later.

It came on exactly like 30 grams of hawaiian psychotria! there was no difference between this and the leaf brew, again I was shocked...it gripped me powerfully, heavy tryptamine buzz and high frequency. The THH already imparts a body frequency buzz + DMT tryptamine buzz = amazing amplified body frequency.

A vibrating neon colored fortress like a magnetic field surrounded me in the room, it shined off of every object similar to a UV blacklight glow...this neon visual vibration appeared all around me, given off by everything around me. The vibrational frequency field reminded me of the tractor beam in Star Trek when they would transport. I've experienced this same phenomena with past journeys involving 30 to 35 grams of potent Hawaiian psychotria...but never with plain freebase DMT or DMT salts before, only again with this HPBCD DMT.

I had to remain in one spot sitting as it was so strong for 1 hour straight, the walls in the room filled with 3-D ish like honeycomb orange & brown geometrics that appeared to bulge slightly off the surface, like the inside of a bee hive, neon colors were abundant, heavy tracers...the beauty all around me was infinite, beautiful CEV's (spinning and dancing or constantly morphing geometrics) and OEV...I was amazed to say the least.

In conclusion, I am impressed with this route of administration via sublingual or oral.

During the oral Ayahuasca journey (200mg harmine + 250mg THH + 70mg DMT complexed to 490mg HPBCD) for the first hour, all objects glowed or shined as if in caught in a neon colored magnetic transporter beam.


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:52 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27306258 - 05/12/21 09:38 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Update at 8pm 5/12/21 around 5 hours later same night, the 250mg 10.5 hour half-life tetrahydroharmine (THH) was still active in my body.

Took sublingual 35mg DMT complexed to 245mg HPBCD on a spoon with less than 0.25ml (only 5 drops) of VERY HOT near boiling water, this was using water that was pre-heated up in microwave in coffee cup, then taken up with end of pipette, and dropped onto spoon with the HPBCD powder/DMT crystals. I kneaded, mashed & mixed it all together using end of a spoon for 2 minutes.

It ALL dissolved into a clear sticky solution after mashing it with end of spoon for 2 minutes--I drew it up from spoon using pipette and placed drops under tongue. It felt like all the DMT dissolved into bloodstream, experienced great effects held under tongue for 15 minutes--sweet taste, as the outer shell of HPBCD is formed from a sugar molecule--no burn! It helped mask the taste of the nasty DMT.

5 minutes after the 15 minute sublingual period, my heart rate & pulse greatly increased, pupils dilated when I looked in mirror, had colored CEV visuals and long CEV lingering after images, open eyed beauty was profound, music sounded incredible once again, felt euphoria and elation. Zero nausea.

Highly recommend complexing DMT to HPBCD for oral use, which simulates actual very strong (+5 Shulgin scale) hawaiian psychotria leaf brew imho, as I've had over 70 hawaiian psychotria + Caapi journeys in the past over many years, or for sublingual use. The HPBCD complexed DMT imho absorbs many factors better than plain DMT freebase or DMT salts in the body, as I have over a dozen experiences with the oral freebase and DMT formed salts in the past for oral use (all only +3 on Shulgin scale). I was blown away by the oral & sublingual HPBCD DMT.

Oral use: 1:1 molar ratio of host drug DMT to HPBCD powder = 1:7 DMT to HPBCD mg weight ratio (70mg DMT to 490mg HPBCD)

SublinguaL: 1:1 molar ratio of host drug DMT to HPBCD powder = 1:7 DMT to HPBCD mg weight ratio (35mg DMT to 245mg HPBCD)

245mg of HPBCD powder may look like alot when laid out, but when even just a few drops of hot water is added to it, it shrinks into a small sticky clear liquid mass as it is derived from a sugar molecule, perfect for "under the tongue" use.

Highly recommend HPBCD complexed DMT. Smile


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:52 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27308783 - 05/14/21 07:44 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Amazing orally see post #25, or sublingual, see post #26.

HPBCD is itself very soluble in water (greater than 1000 mg/ml at room temperature). This increases with VERY HOT near boiling water. So now you see how I used 70mg DMT to 490mg HPBCD in 10 drops for oral use...or the 35mg DMT to 245mg HPBCD in 5 drops very hot water I used for sublingual use.

For example, if one were do an experiment to simulate oral Ayahuasca by complexing 670mg of HPBCD powder to 65mg harmine (1/3rd of an oral dose should work fine) + 40mg DMT all together on a single spoon for "under the tongue" sublingual use in order to avoid the dizziness of using say 200mg oral harmine, (but I always take 150 to 250mg THH orally 1 hour earlier which causes me no nausea or dizziness)...

...this may look like alot when laid out on spoon, but once you add between 5 and 10 drops of very hot near boiling water from a pipette taken up from a nearby coffee mug, the HPBCD shrinks into a small sticky clear liquid mass as it is derived from a sugar molecule, perfect for "under the tongue" use. After 2 minutes or so of kneading and mashing all on the spoon using the end of another spoon with the drops of hot water, it forms a TRANSPARENT CLEAR solution.

P.S. I feel great next 2 days. No hangover, cactus trips are great but usually I feel a bit tired the next day, I feel no tiredness from the oral 200mg harmine + 250mg THH + 70mg dmt complexed to 490mg HPBCD oral journey...the trip is strong for 90 minutes, 3 hours total or so...THH leaves a great afterglow next day.


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:54 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27308800 - 05/14/21 07:54 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

At 9pm that same night, I took another 100mg of THH, for a total of 350mg of THH for the day, before I fell asleep, I watched dream-like monochrome imagery as the THH was still working...for around 30 minutes I viewed mind-blowing vistas--grand architecture and cities, a bookshelf full of ancient books, a view of the gardens in front of what looked like Versailles, France.

I traveled down a street in Midieval period where I saw beautiful women walking along the street, these visions were like slow speed movies, way beyond 4k, highly detailed...true Ayahuasca visions...this always happens when I take at least 300mg or more of tetrahydroharmine during the late evening/night. This is one of the best part of the journey imho.

I've taken 300mg of THH on it's own many times and for hours with eyes closed I view endless dream-like visions, like slow and high speed movies being played for 2 hours...totally unlike normal dreams, she seems to tap into the "Akashic record" of the universe, the ether where all events, past, present, and future are stored...she shows you artwork, architecture, nature, culture, fantasy, history, the future, spiritual, supernatural. The visions are also characterized by the extraordinary beauty that they manifest.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27312304 - 05/17/21 10:56 AM (1 month, 1 day ago)

This thread is continued here with all trip reports:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861&p=2


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27312586 - 05/17/21 03:39 PM (1 month, 22 hours ago)

the formed complex liquid will remain stable indefinitely in a tincture, it can be frozen. Don't leave in fridge for more than a few days or bacteria could grow.

I'm taking 250mg THH orally one hour beforehand, then will take the 35mg harmine + 40mg dmt (75mg total alkaloids) all complexed to 490mg HPBCD powder (forms a 0.500ml or 10 drop solution after 2 minutes of kneading or mashing the mix on a spoon using very hot water drops using end of spoon) held under tongue for 15 minutes, and report results tonight, along with pics of the process.

This being done to simulate "true Ayahuasca" but hopefully without experiencing "the slight dizziness and heaviness" I experience from using 200mg oral harmine. THH causes me no nausea or dizziness whatsoever at 250mg, so I love to use it in combination all the time, imho 250mg THH is very similar to 250mg of mescaline, very beautiful compound. It combines extremely well with DMT.

Have over several weeks experienced 30mg, 35mg and 50mg sublingually and 70mg orally, trip reports above in this thread. The HPBCD DMT absorbs very well under tongue, but I am trying the above to see if the harmine will MAX OUT the activation of the sublingual DMT, hopefully resulting in maximum powerful Ayahuasca, identical to oral potent Hawaiian psychotria effects, which I have over 70 experiences. The harmine also has nice effects (like being in a relaxing hot tub) on it's own which I wish to include.

This will be my last post, as I need to head back to the gym & water park over the summer.

I will leave it up to the rest of you to experiment should you wish to. I love the HPBCD DMT so much, that I will continue to use it the rest of my life. I'm a very visual person, and love good music, that's why I like to show lots of pics. Ayahuasca is a great way to stay Psychedelic for the rest of your life.

Stay true to yourself. Love, peace and music
http://friskyradio.com
--------------------------------------------
Ready for tonight:

1) 35mg harmine + 40mg DMT + 490mg HPBCD laid out

2) 75mg alkaloids + 490mg HPBCD put in spoon

3) 10 drops (0.500ml) near boiling water added from a nearby coffee cup, used the end of a spoon to knead, mash & stir it all together for 2 minutes, light brownish liquid formed, stored in fridge till ready. Alternately, a mortar & pestal can be used to knead & crush/stir the alkaloids into the HPBCD.

4) Tonight: take 250mg tetrahydroharmine 1 hour before, then place 0.5ml solution under tongue, hold for 15 minutes, 5 minutes later harmine + fully activated 40mg DMT should be felt strongly, for 60 to 90 minutes of strong effects. Re-dose again later if want to.


Edited by tregar (05/18/21 03:54 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27312812 - 05/17/21 07:11 PM (1 month, 18 hours ago)

Results:

1) The HPBCD harmine + DMT sucked really bad, I think the harmine interfered not only with the complexing of the DMT but also the absorption of the DMT under tongue, will never repeat again, effects were very mild.

2) So then, 1 hour later I complexed 60mg of DMT to 420mg of HPBCD, shown in pics, held under tongue for 15 minutes, and it began to come on in only 10 minutes, beautiful strong effects! Now that's more like it, long duration about 90 minutes total. As usual, took 250mg THH 1 hour before. Bad ass!

Experienced PHENOMENAL strength, active for 90 minutes, profound open eyed beauty, maxed out dilated pupils, heavy CEV imagery, music incredible, very euphoric.

3) So my favorites are:

* For oral use: 70mg DMT complexed to 490mg HPBCD using 10 very hot water drops, mashed all together on spoon for 2 minutes, then add this to 2oz of hot water containing 200mg harmine + 250mg tetrahydroharmine + 150mg pure ascorbic acid (vit c) to help dissolve freebase harmalas = 10 out of 10, this gives an experience identical to using 30 grams of potent Hawaiian psychotria, I've had over 70 Ayahuasca journeys using Caapi + hawaiian psychotria, and this was no different! zero nausea and went down in one gulp--taste was pretty much non-existent. All of my dozen 70 to 120mg freebase or DMT salt used orally with Caapi were all only +3 on shulgin scale, all very mild. This on the other hand was a +5 on Shulgin scale, just as strong as the leaf and all encompassing like the leaf. See trip report on post #25.:thumbup:

I'm glad to discover this, as for years all the dried Hawaiian psychotria has been extinct, I think it has all been diverted to the numerous Ayahuasca centers in South America.

* For sublingual use: 60mg DMT complexed to 420mg HPBCD using 10 very hot water drops, mashed all together on spoon for 2 minutes, then pour this under tongue and hold for 15 minutes = 9 out of 10, very awesome strength and zero nausea, it stings a little, but the results are worth it, at the end of the 15 minutes, I spit out all the saliva that's collected in mouth into a cup instead of swallowing...nice long 90 minutes duration. :thumbup:

I just took a strong cactus tea in combination with the still working effects of the 60mg sublingual DMT to enjoy the rest of the evening off.



Edited by tregar (05/18/21 02:54 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27313814 - 05/18/21 03:17 PM (30 days, 22 hours ago)

Many others have joined in the conversation: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861&p=2


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27315382 - 05/19/21 07:43 PM (29 days, 18 hours ago)

--------------------------------------------
60mg DMT complexed to 420mg HPBCD sublingual report dosed x 3 times every 2 hours
-------------------------------------------

Full Journey trip report:

Keep in mind using DMT salts sublingually does not work, and the sting is terrible just like you mention Fog. The HPBCD complexed DMT works extremely well, the outer water soluble sugary like tasting HPBCD keeps the freebase DMT trapped inside it's non-polar cone, so as the complex sits under the tongue for 15 minutes...

...you only feel a mild sting for around 10 minutes as the HPBCD releases the DMT directly into the bloodstream from the mucosa membrane under the tongue (only 100 microns thick) as the freebase, only as the freebase will it reach from the bloodstream to the brain with maximum effects. I don't have all the answers, I only know it works extremely well. The tongue is completely fine after, and it's as if nothing happened the next day, 100% no scarring or burning, totally normal.

Be sure to press down with tongue the whole time to trap the sticky complex in the sublingual mucosa.

Give this a try...follow 2 step instructions, 60mg DMT complexed to 420mg HPBCD with 2 minutes mashing on a spoon with 10 drops very hot water and poured under tongue, use your finger to rub any liquid from the spoon under your tongue as well, in case any is left...and hold for 15 minutes, begins to work in only 10 minutes...at the end of the 15 minutes, I spit out any saliva that's collected in mouth into a cup instead of swallowing, for me this has been less than 1/4oz or around less than 15ml saliva.

...and is VERY STRONG...I experienced 90 minutes of very strong effects, pupil dilation maxed out, heavy CEV imagery, open eyed beauty profound, music sounds incredible...feels identical to if I had taken 60mg DMT complexed to HPBCD orally with 200mg harmine with 300mg THH, of course I always take 300mg THH orally any time I do this using the sublingual DMT.

I recommend not using more than 250mg of THH if it is your first time. 250mg of THH causes zero dizziness and ZERO nausea, but 300mg will cause a tiny bit of dizziness for a short time if you are not used to it. I am used to it, so I get no dizziness at 300mg.

The effects were so INCREDIBLE, I RE-DOSED 60mg of DMT complexed to 420mg HPBCD x two more times the same night, every 2 hours...it was the bomb...I was in 7th heaven...:smile:

...never before have I had such insane visuals all night long...all the way till 5am in the morning I was seeing closed eye visions of slow and high speed movies...I saw brightly colored serpents, dungeons I traveled thru, many Mesoamerican pyramids, women of incredible beauty, Japanese landscapes, dancing geometrics, many different animals on a rotating globe, walking on the planet-like globe as it spun, hundreds of visions like slow and high-speed movies over the course of many hours.

I saw the interiors of many magnificent homes, exposed like a camera flash went off, then off to the next home interior, bizarre alien looking creatures, I saw ancient ruins but they were seen as they were before they fell apart. All sorts of architectural wonders appeared that I could not make out exactly what time period they were from.

All the visions were enchanting & manifested incredible beauty. The multi-colored beautiful serpents kept appearing several times in different forms, as if they have some prominence to do with it all, two of them had shining skin covered in gold scales and intertwined like DNA, reminds me of the Aztec quetzalcoatl myth, the "serpent of precious feathers."

...all of these visions were brightly colored due to the DMT and THH combo all night long..it was one of the most powerful psychedelic experiences of my life...and I've taken Ayahuasca x 70 times, cactus 200 times, etc...I have never had over 5 hours of non-stop CEV visions anything close to what I saw the other night...I was blown away, and will be thinking about this for a very long time...this sublingual DMT along with 300mg THH taken orally 1 hour before is my absolute favorite...there is no nausea...I wore headphones and listened to music the whole time, as the music sounded just like if I had taken a very strong cactus tea...out of this world good...I had non-stop closed eye visions all night long, insane visions...totally blown away.

I love the "oral 250 to 300mg THH + sublingual 420mg HPBCD complexed to 60mg DMT administration" as there is a complete lack of "queasiness feeling during the journey", perhaps because there is no harmine/DMT going thru the stomach & intestines...I don't know the answer for sure, but I like it.

Remember, I took 300mg of THH once early on, then every 2 hours I took 60mg of DMT complexed to 420mg of HPBCD sticky liquid under my tongue for 15 minutes held...so I took it x 3 times...

one of the most visionary entheogenic experiences of my life. :shocked:



Edited by tregar (05/21/21 07:47 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27315505 - 05/19/21 09:55 PM (29 days, 16 hours ago)

YES!


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #27315950 - 05/20/21 09:08 AM (29 days, 4 hours ago)

Tregar,

Do you have a clear preference for sublingual administration over the brew you ingested???


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27317130 - 05/21/21 07:50 AM (28 days, 6 hours ago)

Thanks tyrannicalrex.

LeafRaker said:
Quote:

Tregar,

Do you have a clear preference for sublingual administration over the brew you ingested???



Yes LeafRaker. I love the "oral 250 to 300mg THH + sublingual 420mg HPBCD complexed to 60mg DMT administration" over the oral Ayahuaasca as there is a complete lack of "queasiness feeling during the journey", perhaps because there is no harmine/DMT going thru the stomach & intestines...I don't know the answer for sure, but I like it. ZERO dizziness, ZERO nausea, ZERO heaviness feeling.

I recommend not using more than 250mg of THH if it is your first time. 250mg of THH causes zero dizziness and ZERO nausea, but 300mg will cause a tiny bit of dizziness for a short time if you are not used to it. I am used to it, so I get no dizziness at 300mg.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27317169 - 05/21/21 08:56 AM (28 days, 5 hours ago)

This has all been very interesting. Thanks for your generosity here!

I'm tempted to not just look again at various forms of DMT, but also look at how THH on its own might enrich the mushroom experience. Some of us who have combined mushrooms+MAOis can't seem to agree on how THH impacts the experience, it's probably a good idea to use it on it's own.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27318109 - 05/22/21 12:35 AM (27 days, 13 hours ago)

Yes LeafRaker, THH enhances all psychedelics, it brings out their "esssence" to the max.

How to make tetrahydroharmine:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861&p=1


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27320774 - 05/24/21 05:49 AM (25 days, 8 hours ago)

Full journey trip report:

Keep in mind using DMT salts sublingually does not work, and the sting is terrible just like you mention Fog. The HPBCD complexed DMT works extremely well, the outer water soluble sugary like tasting HPBCD keeps the freebase DMT trapped inside it's non-polar cone, so as the complex sits under the tongue for 15 minutes...

...you only feel a mild sting for around 10 minutes as the HPBCD releases the DMT directly into the bloodstream from the mucosa membrane under the tongue (only 100 microns thick) as the freebase, only as the freebase will it reach from the bloodstream to the brain with maximum effects. I don't have all the answers, I only know it works extremely well. The tongue is completely fine after, and it's as if nothing happened the next day, 100% no scarring or burning, totally normal.

Be sure to press down with tongue the whole time to trap the sticky complex in the sublingual mucosa.

Give this a try...follow 2 step instructions, 60mg DMT complexed to 420mg HPBCD with 2 minutes mashing on a spoon with 10 drops very hot water and poured under tongue, use your finger to rub any liquid from the spoon under your tongue as well, in case any is left...and hold for 15 minutes, begins to work in only 10 minutes...at the end of the 15 minutes, I spit out any saliva that's collected in mouth into a cup instead of swallowing, for me this has been less than 1/4oz or around less than 15ml saliva.

...and is VERY STRONG...I experienced 90 minutes of very strong effects, pupil dilation maxed out, heavy CEV imagery, open eyed beauty profound, music sounds incredible...feels identical to if I had taken 60mg DMT complexed to HPBCD orally with 200mg harmine with 300mg THH, of course I always take 300mg THH orally any time I do this using the sublingual DMT.

I recommend not using more than 250mg of THH if it is your first time. 250mg of THH causes zero dizziness and ZERO nausea, but 300mg will cause a tiny bit of dizziness for a short time if you are not used to it. I am used to it, so I get no dizziness at 300mg.

The effects were so INCREDIBLE, I RE-DOSED 60mg of DMT complexed to 420mg HPBCD x two more times the same night, every 2 hours...it was the bomb...I was in 7th heaven...:smile:

...never before have I had such insane visuals all night long...all the way till 5am in the morning I was seeing closed eye visions of slow and high speed movies...I saw brightly colored serpents, dungeons I traveled thru, many Mesoamerican pyramids, women of incredible beauty, Japanese landscapes, dancing geometrics, many different animals on a rotating globe, walking on the planet-like globe as it spun, hundreds of visions like slow and high-speed movies over the course of many hours.

I saw the interiors of many magnificent homes, exposed like a camera flash went off, then off to the next home interior, bizarre alien looking creatures, I saw ancient ruins but they were seen as they were before they fell apart. All sorts of architectural wonders appeared that I could not make out exactly what time period they were from.

All the visions were enchanting & manifested incredible beauty. The multi-colored beautiful serpents kept appearing several times in different forms, as if they have some prominence to do with it all, two of them had shining skin covered in gold scales and intertwined like DNA, reminds me of the Aztec quetzalcoatl myth, the "serpent of precious feathers."

...all of these visions were brightly colored due to the DMT and THH combo all night long..it was one of the most powerful psychedelic experiences of my life...and I've taken Ayahuasca x 70 times, cactus 200 times, etc...I have never had over 5 hours of non-stop CEV visions anything close to what I saw the other night...I was blown away, and will be thinking about this for a very long time...this sublingual DMT along with 300mg THH taken orally 1 hour before is my absolute favorite...there is no nausea...I wore headphones and listened to music the whole time, as the music sounded just like if I had taken a very strong cactus tea...out of this world good...I had non-stop closed eye visions all night long, insane visions...totally blown away.

I love the "oral 250 to 300mg THH + sublingual 420mg HPBCD complexed to 60mg DMT administration" as there is a complete lack of "queasiness feeling during the journey", perhaps because there is no harmine/DMT going thru the stomach & intestines...I don't know the answer for sure, but I like it.

Remember, I took 300mg of THH once early on, then every 2 hours I took 60mg of DMT complexed to 420mg of HPBCD sticky liquid under my tongue for 15 minutes held...so I took it x 3 times...

one of the most visionary entheogenic experiences of my life. :shocked:

----------------------------------------

    Shroombee said:
   
Quote:

Results of THH plus sublingual HPBCD+DMT trial::thumbup: It works!




    See part 10 of paper: how tetrahydroharmine is made:
    https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861

    Just a few tips before I depart for the summer to the weight room and waterpark:

    1. Take 250 to 300mg of THH or tetrahydroharmine around 45 minutes to 1 hour before, as the combo of THH + DMT simulates true Ayahuasca, THH is the 2nd highest ingredient in Caapi. THH is not an maoi, it is an SRI or serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Mescaline, ibogaine, LSD, shrooms all inhibit serotonin as well, this serotonin blocking action results in expanded consciousness in combo with the DMT as borders and walls are broken down in the mind as a result.

    I have seen the receptorome data for THH, it is very similar to mescaline, as THH not only blocks serotonin like mescaline, but agonizes all 3 adrenal receptors just like mescaline (A2A-A2C), these receptors are implicated in not only visionary but feelings associated with aesthetics and beauty.

    Using this oral THH + sublingual DMT results in ZERO nausea, ZERO dizziness, ZERO feelings of queasiness as there is no oral harmine/DMT going thru the stomach & intestines.

    Just like Professor8 said back in 2010, she, the feminine "THH has the ability to raise your vibration or whole-body frequency (this is really felt strongly) in a most powerful way. She brings a diamond-like crystalline prismy texture & super clear watery dimension to Ayahuasca, like looking down through 10 meters of shimmering Caribbean Sea on clear blue day. She brings a dimension of pure light to the entheogenic experience and encourages entities & intelligences of only the Highest Order."

    2. Sublingual DMT salts do not work, and the sting is terrible. Using this method, the sting is mild to a little moderate, the outer water soluble sugary tasting HPBCD helps with this as it traps the non-polar dmt freebase inside it's tornado cone, as it releases the freebase directly into the bloodstream from the sublingual mucosa, only this way do you get max effects, as the freebase travels from the bloodstream directly to the brain.

    3. I found that using the bottom of my tongue to "lick any leftover liquid sticky complex" off the spoon will grab any rest of it once you have poured it off from spoon to under the tongue. I get it all this way. I simply press the spoon against the bottom tip of my tongue to grab any leftover from the spoon.

    4. The liquid sticky like complex should have all dissolved, there is none leftover when I do this after 15 minutes, be sure to press down with bottom of tongue the whole time to trap the sticky liquid complex in the sublingual mucosa under the tongue.

    5. Don't swish your mouth out with anything, just spit out any saliva into a cup from your mouth after 15 minutes, then just sit there as you experience the trip for the next 90 minutes, go brush your teeth if you want way later...it does not hurt the tongue, feels completely fine after it's dissolved. It's even good for dental health imho as it kills any bacteria. But your teeth should be just fine, as we are trapping it in the sublingual mucosa under the tongue.

    6. 60mg is very powerful...I redosed every 2 hours, this was indeed a level 4 on the Shulgin scale for me combined with 300mg THH taken orally 1 hour before the whole journey, has a half-life of 10.5 hours, so 5 hours of strong activity combined with re-dosing 60mg sublingual DMT every 2 hours = incredibly bad ass, I had 5 hours of brightly colored CEV visions as described above...most powerful CEV visionary experience of my life.

    I love it even more than strong cactus tea cause it's dirt cheap to experience a level 4 trip now, and no different than strong cactus tea as open eyed beauty is profound, music sounds INCREDIBLE for 5 hours, and heavy CEV visions for hours on end.

    7. This past Friday on 5/21/21, I again took 300mg THH one hour before then used 80mg sublingual DMT complexed this time to 560mg HPBCD, mashed with 10 boiling hot water drops for 2 minutes on a spoon, then held complex under tongue for 15 minutes and experienced open eye visuals this time...the walls filled with colored geometrics, this was my 2nd high dose trial, when I took this again sublingually, but used 80mg instead of 60mg. Again, I had high-powered CEV's as well. I have become adept at using this stuff sublingually now. I had none to re-dose as I ran out of DMT, disappointed, have to extract some more, but at least I got 90 minutes out of it: very strong journey. I am now taking a 2 week break before I take it again.

    8. Try adding another 100mg of HPBCD to your complex, as the 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin has a higher molecular weight (1500 g/mol) than my plain HPBCD (1300 g/mol), molecular weight of DMT = 188 g/mol...you want to use a 1:1 molar ratio.

    This will help trap more of the DMT, and lower the mild sting threshold even more. Use a 1:8 mg weight ratio of DMT to HPBCD instead of 1:7 mg weight ratio in other words. This means using 60mg DMT to 480mg HPBCD with 10 drops near boiling hot water from a coffee mug all mashed together on a spoon for 2 minutes, then pour under tongue.   


Edited by tregar (05/24/21 07:47 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27323554 - 05/26/21 09:26 AM (23 days, 4 hours ago)

For the HPBCD DMT experiments, extracted DMT as described below:

1) A procedure (based on Noman's or Norman's tek) which yields 1.5g DMT from 150 gram powdered bark: all 4 pulls are using 90ml naptha on 150g powdered bark mixed into 1.8 liter lye water (1.5 x 150g bark = use 225g lye dissolved into the 1.8 liter 150 degree hot water.) Just heat up 1.8 liter of water in a big pyrex pot on stove and use thermometer to pull if off when it reads 150 degree F.

Slowly sprinkle lye using safety goggles and long chemical resistant gloves that go up each arm, and stand back as far as possible...(the hot water will fizz but not boil up) into your pyrex pot of hot water. After each sprinkle, stir the water a bit with a super long metal spoon. It will "growl" a bit as it fizzes, but this way it dissolves very fast into already hot water.

Pour this lye water into your 2 Liter erlenmeyer flask using a large automotive funnel. Add 150 grams of finely powdered bark, and use a long chopstick or similar to mix it all together.

Use (.6 x 150g bark = 90ml naptha pull for each of the 4 pulls). An erlenmeyer flask makes it easy to do pulls using a long glass pipette, as the top of flask is tapered, so all the naptha collects at the top for easy pull.

Use an electronic thermometer to check the temp of the Lye water bark mix, when the lye water cools down from 150 degree F to around 120 degree F, then it's time to add your 90ml of naptha, make sure your 2L flask is sitting on a mitten or similar...this makes it easy to swirl your flask to mix the contents, make sure you are using the proper rubber stopper number to seal the top of your flask once you turn it upside down then right side up to mix the contents as well.

Prefer to do a combination of swirling and a couple of upside down then right side up turns of the 2L flask, then once right side up, let the rubber stopper out, and let the stopper just barely sit in the flask (not tight), so gasses can exit. After 1/2 hour, all the 90ml of naptha will migrate & collect at the top of the tapered erlenmeyer flask...use your long glass pipette to collect the naptha, that's it! very easy, no mess, and the tapered erlenmeyer flask and glass pipette with round rubber plunger at the end makes it easy to collect the naptha at the top without collecting any lye water by accident. This is the way a chemist can do it.

No need to do a sodium carbonate clean on it, it's plenty clean already.

My procedure:
1) place 60mg of DMT onto a spoon
2) add 1:1 molar ratio of host drug to HPBCD powder, this means 1:7 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD, use a 1:8 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD if you are using the 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin.
3) this means 60mg dmt placed on spoon, then add 420mg of HPBCD on top DMT, use 480mg HPBCD if you are using the 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin.
4) add 10 to 12 drops of very hot near boiling water to the mix from a coffee mug
5) Knead or crush the HPBCD powder into the dmt using the end of a spoon for 2 minutes
6) Take 200 to 300mg tetrahydroharmine orally around 45 minutes before. Then place sticky HPBCD DMT glob (HPBCD powder forms sticky complexes) under tongue for 15 minutes, press down with bottom of tongue the whole time to trap sticky liquid complex in the sublingual mucosa. Be sure to use bottom end of tongue to lick any off spoon that is left behind, you want to get it all.

At end of 15 minutes, spit out any saliva into a cup instead of swallowing. The combination of THH + DMT simulates true Ayahuaasca, but there is zero nausea, zero dizziness, zero queasiness since there is no harmine or DMT going thru stomach and intestines. 10 minutes in there are heavy CEV's of spinning colored geometrics, visions of ancient architecture, animals, aliens, you name it, it seems to tap into the Akashic record of the ether in the Universe, where all past, present, and future is known. Open eyed profound beauty, music sounds incredible, this all lasts for 90 minutes. You can redose more HPBCD DMT by two more times, around every 2 hours if you want.

The sticky HPBCD DMT glob looks similar to the cartoon below.

Erlenmeyer flask tapers towards the top, makes extractions easier using a glass pipette, as all the naptha collects in a narrow band tapered area near the top.



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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27324749 - 05/27/21 08:54 AM (22 days, 5 hours ago)

Update 5-27-2021 p.s. I had an experience last night that blew my mind again for 90 minutes, took 300mg THH 45 minutes orally before as usual...then used 80mg DMT complexed to 560mg HPBCD all mashed together real hard on a spoon for 2 minutes using 11 drops near boiling hot water from a coffee mug. I used the end of another spoon to mash it all together. My new improved method is grab all the liquid complex off the spoon using only the bottom of my tongue to grab it all, as it will all come off spoon and "stick to bottom of tongue". So easy and quick and efficient.

I held it sublingual "under tongue", and the walls filled with geometric patterns, and I saw waves of neon splashes of color wash across the room, it was AMAZING, I was tripping so hard...level 5 again on Shulgin scale, I LOVE this stuff...it's worth the initial sting for 15 minutes, then the sting subsides over the next 10 minutes to nothing. I spit out any saliva at end of 15 minutes, but don't rinse out mouth with anything (any residual amount will keep on absorbing), the sting and numbness is gone 10 minutes later...love this more than strong cactus tea, as it is dirt cheap to experience a level 5 trip now. :smile:



Edited by tregar (05/27/21 10:08 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27325605 - 05/27/21 08:30 PM (21 days, 17 hours ago)

Hey Tregar.

Sounds like you are onto something! Im thoroughly enjoying this thread.

I'm really considering this route for a first DMT experience, but I don't have access to THH or Harmalas.



So would you recommend 60mg  - without - thh... or a different dose?


I know it's not your preference, but you're the only guy to ask! (my goto is 3.5g home grown cubes).

Thanks!:mushroom2:


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: RoadAppleSnapple]
    #27328816 - 05/30/21 06:40 AM (19 days, 7 hours ago)
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RoadAppleSnapple, thanks and use 60mg dmt if it's your first time.

However, doing this without THH would be like going to a waterpark without the women and bikini's :smile:

In the 7 times I have used this sublingually, only twice did I produce more than my normal low amount of less than 10 to 15ml saliva, but it still did not bother me, but I was happy to spit it out at 15 minutes. :smile: I have noticed on subsequent re-doses during the night, that there is even less saliva and sting as the mouth/tongue gets used to it.

See page 3, post #27305992

On wed night 5/26/2021, I had an experience that blew my mind again for 90 minutes, took 300mg THH 45 minutes orally before as usual...then used 80mg DMT complexed to 560mg HPBCD all mashed together real hard on a spoon for 2 minutes using 11 drops near boiling hot water from a coffee mug. I used the end of another spoon to mash it all together. My new improved method is grab all the liquid complex off the spoon using only the bottom of my tongue to grab it all, as it will all come off spoon and "stick to bottom of tongue". So easy and quick and efficient.

I held it sublingual "under tongue", and around 12 minutes in, the walls filled with geometric patterns, and I saw waves of neon splashes of color wash across the room, it was AMAZING, I was tripping so hard...level 5 again on Shulgin scale, I LOVE this stuff...it's worth the initial sting for 15 minutes, then the sting subsides over the next 10 minutes to nothing. I spit out any saliva at end of 15 minutes, but don't rinse out mouth with anything (any residual amount will keep on absorbing), the sting and numbness is gone 10 minutes later...love this more than strong cactus tea, as it is dirt cheap to experience a level 5 trip now. :smile:

Don't forget if you don't like the sublingual method, you can always use this stuff orally, as it performs many factors better than DMT freebase or DMT salts used orally, See my trip report page 3, post #27305992 . Example: HPBCD improves oral absorption profile for Ofloxacin, a second generation fluroquinolones by 54 to 89 percent. But I love the sublingual method personally.

Dennis Mckenna Ph.D: page 115 "Thus, tetrahydroharmine may prolong the half-life of DMT by blocking it's intraneuronal uptake, and hence, its inactivation by MAO, localized in mitochondria within the neuron."

I still can't get over the visuals on wed night: I saw entire waves of neon color that extended from bottom of floor to top of ceiling wash all the way from the right of the room to the left of the room, like a laser scanner, there were fine "ripples" in the waves...these waves were broadcast onto the walls, replacing the fine geometrics already seen on the walls...the neon colors were out of this world impossible: neon red-greens, neon orange-blues, neon purple-yellows.

The euphoria and open-eyed beauty was over the top for a full 90 minutes. The music being played over the 3.5 foot high infinity speakers I've had for so many years sounded incredibly good, like being an alien experiencing sound & music for the very first time.

I had so much fun, I re-dosed again with a lower 60mg around every 2 hours. ZERO nausea, ZERO dizziness, ZERO queasiness feelings. AND IT STILL KEPT WORKING BAD ASS. I work some weekends, so that's why I took it Wed night, as I have random 2 days off in a row midweek some weeks. As a weightlifter, I'm used to experiencing "the burn" in the muscles when lifting, so to me the sting under the tongue is tolerable, does not bother me, for some others, they will want to experience this orally using harmine and thh taken at same time mixed with the HPBCD DMT (which turns 100% clear when it hits the hot water) all together in a 2oz hot water tea, just like I did on page 3, post #27305992.



Edited by tregar (05/30/21 08:56 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27330099 - 05/31/21 10:27 AM (18 days, 3 hours ago)

This is the story of how this came about: the plants taught this to me. I did not discover it. I have taken Ayahuasca over 70 times and cactus tea x 200 times. Ayahuasca seems to want to propagate herself all over the globe by any means possible, and if that means using the latest pharmacology advancements such as HPBCD, then so be it. The planet is in crisis, and Ayahuasca wants to help reverse the insane rapid destruction.

Daniel Pinchbeck "How Soon is Now":
Quote:

The human race is careening toward extinction: rising acidity of the oceans threatens coral reefs, habitat destruction, non-native species (predatory fish, bullfrogs, fungus, pathogens), climate change (alters temperature and water levels), pollution and diseases (especially chytridiomycosis, caused from the chytrid fungus) all have been shown to contribute to worldwide amphibian declines.

We clear forest that are full of trees even though we continue to pump CO2 into the air even though we know it's heating up the ozone and melting ice caps; we clear forests that are full of trees that could potentially help clean that co2 out of the air, the Amazon rainforest is the lungs of the planet, but miles of it are slashed & burned every week so that cattle can graize there instead to make hamburgers, and massive soybean cultivation. We throw away plastic water bottles, and worst of all, we feed into the corporate systems that keep this destruction going.



I don't know about you, but I don't use soybeans for anything, don't eat hamburger or steaks, only fish, chicken & turkey daily, as a bodybuilder this keeps me lean daily.

On my 70th Ayahuasca journey using the very last of my stored away Hawaiian psychotria, she showed me a vision of my "lost 1kg container of HPBCD". I had put it away 12 years ago, as I bought it from a sports supplement supplier, once pro-hormones became illegal, I carelessly abandoned the container in a place I could care less about, see pic on post #1.

Ayahuasca has a long standing traditional reputation of helping people find lost personal items like rings, necklaces, etc. through visions. She once helped me find a set of important spoons that I had misplaced many years ago as well. She showed me they were buried in a drawer under forgotten clothes many years old. I once saw a vision of a beautiful woman in medieval times searching for a lost ring in her home, Ayahuasca showed me that it was at the very top of a cubbard in her kitchen.

All that time the HPBCD container was lost, she showed me that it was in my garage buried in a container along with plumbing parts. That night I dug it out of the container and put it in my closet for use the next day. She also showed me a vision of the mimosa tree or shrub, I put 2 and 2 together, and knew what she was telling me...to experiment with HPBCD complexed DMT, and so that is what I did. She already knew that I had experience making sublingual HPBCD pro-hormones, as I had learned it from chemist Patrick Arnold.

I had run out of Hawaiian psychotria, and it had been extinct for the past 3 years, perhaps diverted to all the numerous Ayahuasca centers in South America. I needed a high power alternative.

Daniel Pinchbeck "Breaking Open the Head" (Daniel also states in his book, that Ayahuasca is his favorite entheogen):
Quote:

For many people, Ayahuasca-a slowed-down low-res interface of the DMT flash-seems to convey strong messages from the natural world, of nature as sentient energy and spirit matter, of the need to protect the planet we have been given.

Yage whispers that human beings are meant to be gardeners of this reality, journeyers, storytellers and singers, weavers of the sacred. DMT, on the other hand, conveys no overt human or humane message.




Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 428:
Quote:

My experience with smoked DMT was qualitatively different from the realms and beings Ayahuasca introduced me to. For whereas the Ayahuasca worlds seemed rich, luxurious, and abundant in the transformations of organic and supernatural life, DMT brought me to a world--or to some aspect of a world--that appeared from the outset to be highly artificial, constructed, inorganic, and in essence technological.




A little bit about me...

Becoming a shaman is often just as much of a curse as it is a blessing. Shamans are chosen by the Spirits at birth, but it is not until later in life (usually in their 20’s) that the shaman is struck down. The striking down of a shaman is to dismember them as a person and to have them reborn into something else.

I am not a shaman, but have been thru alot of the near-death experiences Shaman's have gone thru, lost both my twin girls at birth, so have no children, my beloved pet Shitzu died at only age 4 from continuous bladder stones for 6 months, we did everything together...he was unable to pee so many times, we had to rush him to vet, where he was put down. He visited both of us in a dream 2 days later to tell us he was doing great in Heaven with a big smile on his face.

Have nearly died several times, once was hit head on by a truck when driver ran a yield sign, barely survived with numerous injuries. The hospital caught all my fractured ribs but did not diagnose my collapsed lung, so when I got home, drifted into shock in the middle of the night, wife called an ambulance and was rushed to a better hospital where they immediately diagnosed the lung condition and treated me for it.

Once took alot of acacia bark with Ayahuasca instead of the normal Hawaiian psychotria I use, and went into a serious serotonin syndrome shock, for an hour and a half I sweated my ass off sitting in the bathtub, I told my wife goodbye while my dog watched in a sad state...by some miracle pulled out of it, believe it was the high levels of maoi's in the acacia that interacted with the rima's in the Ayahuasca, bad combination. My forehead was pouring sweat for 1.5 hours, was in severe shock and trembling, and knew I was gonna die.

Lost everything in a 100 year severe flood, my home and all my belongings, had just gotten married to my beautiful wife and all the newlywed gifts perished...right after that we moved to an apartment complex, and 5 months later all our belongings again perished as they burnt to the ground after a disgruntled teen threw a lit blunt into the apartment complex after his girlfriend dumped him.

Had it not been for the policeman banging on the door of the apartment, we would have surely burned in the flames, as we were on the 3rd floor & asleep as I worked 2nd shift at the time. We ran down the steps in only our bare feet and suffered smoke inhalation.

Have been thru some near-death experiences similar to a Shaman, who lives on the outskirts of society. Lifting weights, walking in nature with my dog, going to the waterpark with a season pass every summer, and reading Bible all keep my spirits up.

Some of you have contacted me via messenger to let me know that you would like to experience this for other reasons than the visions, to help with treating depression. I will tell you this, yes, Ayahuasca can help to cure not only anger issues, melancholy, drug abuse & addictions, but also depression. She is also able to grow brand new neurons in the brain every time a journey is taken, she has cured people of all sorts of afflictions and ailments, even severe depression. I feel an afterglow for a couple days after a journey, and this refreshed serotonin reset often lasts for a couple weeks.

Celebrities who have battled major depression: Dwayne Johnson "the Rock", Katy Perry, Jon Hamm, Lady Gaga, Michael Phelps, Kristen Bell, Bruce Springsteen, Gwyneth Paltrow, Ashley Judd, Naomi Judd, Ryan Phillippe, J.K. Rowling, Sheryl Crow, Terry Bradshaw, Buzz Aldrin, Tipper Gore, Wayne Brady, Jim Carrey, Robin Williams, Brittany Murphy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
A little bit more on tetrahydroharmine:

1) She has very strong serotonin blocking action, which results not only in stimulation but powerful transcendence as the daily survival filters are lifted so that "mind at large" as coined by Aldous Huxley can be let loose, when combined with DMT, which does not block serotonin on it's own, you then get the "full monty" mind expansion powerful transcendence. See end of post #41 for journey reports of 300mg THH on it's own. THH has numerous similarities to mescaline as noted by not only myself, but another person here. I have seen the receptorome data for THH, which not only blocks serotonin like mescaline, but agonizes all 3 of the adrenal receptors just like mescaline which are associated with powerful visionary activity, perception of beauty and aesthetics.

2) Yes, she is feminine, which is why I always associate feminine pictures and energy with my journey trip reports that involve her. Queen of the Forest is what I like to call her.

3) She seems to be very stable indefinitely. I've used THH that was many years old that I had lost, still worked exactly the same. Wikipedia to find out more about it (good page on it), or read attached paper two posts up attached. Even Shulgin remarks in the book TIHKAL that "studies on THH are absolutely imperative." He also remarked that it probably holds one of the keys to unlocking Ayahuasca, but we just didn't know it yet.

4) Please just take tetrahydroharmine orally between 150 to 300mg. She causes no dizziness at 250mg or below, and only a tiny bit at 300mg, but once you are used to her, no dizziness even at 300mg. ZERO nausea, ZERO queasiness, so just consume THH orally at a powerful amount found in normal Ayahuasca brew which if you read attached paper two posts up is at least 150mg.

Many take multiple cups of Ayahuasca, so the THH is additive in effect, with a half life of 10.5 hours, so you get 5 hours of super strong effects, once you reach 300mg, the powerful CEV visions are seen for hours on end, phenomenal, them combine with DMT and the visions multiply and become colored and even brighter, as THH visions alone are monochrome (one-color) usually in green or blue. The DMT adds color and brightness to the visions, and adds to them exponentially.

Pic: Ayahuasca, Queen of the Forest


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27331131 - 06/01/21 08:44 AM (17 days, 5 hours ago)

I plan on having another neon-colorful open eyed trip like 2 posts up next weekend, so I'm not only taking 250mg THH with me for oral use 45 minutes before, but I pre-made a HPBCD DMT tincture to take with me when I go to the beach for 4 days next week. I'm cheaply renting a house with pool a few blocks down from the beach as we pooled our funds together with another couple we know. The tincture will stay good in fridge for several days, but after several days it needs to be stored in a freezer so bacteria does not grow.

Each 0.5ml on the graduated pipette (10 drops) = 60mg HPBCD DMT (60mg DMT complexed to 420mg HPBCD in 10 drops near boiling hot water from a nearby coffee mug)

Note: add 1:1 molar ratio of host drug to HPBCD powder, this means 1:7 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD, use a 1:8 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD if you are using the 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin. This means 60mg dmt placed on spoon, then add 420mg of HPBCD on top DMT, use 480mg HPBCD if you are using the 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin.

I dunk the tincture bottle in a coffee mug of near boiling hot water to warm it up again before use after pulling from fridge or freezer. Each drop = 6mg DMT complexed to 42mg HPBCD.

HPBCD is itself very soluble in water (greater than 1000 mg/ml at room temperature). This increases with VERY HOT near boiling water. So now you see how I used in earlier trip 80mg DMT complexed to 560mg HPBCD in 10 to 12 drops for sublingual use. 1ml = 20 drops, 0.5ml = 10 drops, therefore each drop of water can hold 50mg HPBCD at room temp, or twice that 100mg HPBCD in very hot water.





Edited by tregar (06/01/21 10:26 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27334599 - 06/04/21 02:33 AM (14 days, 11 hours ago)

Thread continued here with additional trip reports, even up to 90mg dmt, see page 4:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861&p=3


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 2
    #27336029 - 06/05/21 08:57 AM (13 days, 5 hours ago)

I'm just going to take the stuff sublingual at the beach house, then walk is only 5 minutes or so, so by the time I get to end of pier it should be working.

I just took when I got home from waterpark this afternoon: 250mg THH taken 45 minutes before, then 90mg DMT complexed to 630mg HPBCD with 12 drops of VERY HOT water, mashed all together for 2 minutes on spoon, then used bottom of tongue to grab it all from spoon, held in the sublingual mucosa (pressed down hard) for 15 minutes, spit out saliva, continued to hold any residue for next 10 minutes...it blew my mind! For 1.5 hour I saw neon colors wash across all the walls, geometrics on the furniture and floors, music beyond incredible sounding, infinite open eyed beauty, tripped so hard, love the stuff! The tryptamine rush was felt very strongly, awesome body frequency vibration.

From attached paper on post #57: Dennis Mckenna Ph.D: "Thus, tetrahydroharmine may prolong the half-life of DMT by blocking it's intraneuronal uptake, and hence, its inactivation by MAO, localized in mitochondria within the neuron."



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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27336354 - 06/05/21 03:42 PM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

Anytime I do this, I always take antioxidants: 300mg +R-ALA, 1000mg vitamin C, vitamin E. I also take 6 to 8 caps of fish oil daily and 1 cup of 3 berry blend in my protein shake, super antioxidant power and the fish oil keeps depression far, far away...fabulous good mood with fish oil and sunlight daily.

I highly suggest using these 5.5 x 7.5 inch pyrex dishes that come with covers found at *almart, simply pour each of your 90ml naptha pulls into each of 4 dishes, stack them in the freezer, 8 hours later, pour off naptha thru a coffee filter secured to a wide one-half pint jar to collect any xtals floating in the ice cold naptha, and simply scrape up all the xtals from your square pyrex once it is bone dry.

Super easy instructions here on post #50: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861&p=3 for 1.5g DMT from 150g bark all in one day using a 2 Liter erlenmeyer flask and long glass pipette with rubber stopper on end for the pulls.

1st pull = 1200mg, 2nd pull = 200mg, 3rd pull = 100mg, 4rth pull = 50mg, done this x 3 times, each time yield always at or better than 1.5g. Most (95%) of the crystals are all stuck to the bottom of shallow dish each time, very nice!



Edited by tregar (06/05/21 10:40 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27338026 - 06/06/21 10:25 PM (11 days, 15 hours ago)
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The effects with the sublingual route are the exact same as if the DMT had been taken orally with harmine & THH, you get a full 90 strong minutes out of it with long afterglow, and yes, the THH does indeed extend the half-life of the DMT just as Dennis Mckenna PH.D. states in attached paper. I also enjoy the sting, reminds me of the burn when I lift weights, been a bodybuilder since my early 20's. The sting does not bother me at all, cause I know I'm gonna trip super hard for the next 1.5 hour, it's so worth it. Just like building muscle, no pain no gain.

Dennis Mckenna Ph.D: page 115 "Thus, tetrahydroharmine may prolong the half-life of DMT by blocking it's intraneuronal uptake, and hence, its inactivation by MAO, localized in mitochondria within the neuron."

60mg is a great dose once you have experience, a 3.5 on the Shulgin strength scale. You can always take this orally with 200mg harmine and 150mg THH if you can't tolerate the sublingual sting.

Update: 6-6-21

Yesterday on Saturday night, I first took 300mg THH 45 minutes before, then I took 110mg DMT complexed to 770mg HPBCD in 12 drops very hot water with 2 minutes mashing and kneading....then used bottom of tongue to grab it all from spoon, held in the sublingual mucosa (pressed down hard) for 15 minutes, spit out saliva, continued to hold any residue for next 10 minutes.

I tripped my ass off...I was so out there, the beauty all around was profound and infinite, sparkles and colored streamers floated and darted about in the air like fireworks, neon colors filled the walls in purples and yellows and red/greens...the music was so incredible sounding...intricate geometrics again filled the walls in between neon washes of colors, which took turns fading back and forth between the two.

I re-dosed 110mg more DMT complexed to 770mg HPBCD again every 2 hours for a total of 3 times the whole night....it was one of the most intense psychedelic experiences of my life....it was the bomb, I so loved it....I watched movies and was mesmerized by the beauty of the on-screen actresses and scenery...like I was on another planet...the euphoria and spiritual joy was intense. I had to raise my normal dosage of 80mg dmt to 110mg as I had slight tolerance from using it earlier in the week, but it still worked VERY strongly once I increased the dose.

What I do now whenever I take this...I pre-prepare 3 steel tablespoons, each taken off a key ring measuring spoon set, full of DMT complexed to HPBCD ahead of time...and place a foil cover over each tablespoon on the desk...so that I can take more every 1.5 to 2 hours in order to trip non-stop all night without having to stop to make more throughout the evening.

I am heading for beach soon, so will be gone for some time, enjoy and please keep reporting.

The table below shows the subjective effects on a Shulgin level 1 to 5 of DMT dose which applies to either:

(1) DMT complexed to HPBCD used orally with harmine/THH all taken together at exact same time mixed into a 2oz hot water tea, use 150mg crushed vitamin C to mix the harmalas into the hot water should they be in freebase form, the HPBCD DMT turns 100% clear when it hits the hot water, or...

(2) DMT complexed to HPBCD used sublingually with THH taken orally 45 minutes earlier...exact same strength either way.





Edited by tregar (06/07/21 05:12 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27338392 - 06/07/21 05:04 AM (11 days, 8 hours ago)

what about with zero thh? still work? or is it likely some maoi action is happening :wink:


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man] * 1
    #27338398 - 06/07/21 05:15 AM (11 days, 8 hours ago)

the man said:
Quote:

what about with zero thh? still work? or is it likely some maoi action is happening :wink:



Hello again the man, nice to see you!. The THH is not an maoi, it is an SRI, the music will only sound bad ass if you include it, and it doubles the half-life of the DMT, it brightens the visuals, adds euphoria & stimulation, adds visions, and it adds very transcendent activity to the journey, it is the 2nd highest ingredient in Ayahuasca, very important, omitting it would be like going to a waterpark without the women and bikini's. :smile:


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27340557 - 06/08/21 07:54 PM (9 days, 18 hours ago)

When using oral DMT or sublingual DMT, you will need to use higher doses than "vaped dmt". For example, I have done Ayahuasca 70 times using 30 to 40g of Hawaiian psychotria with Caapi each time. 30g Hawaiian psychotria contains approximately 60mg of DMT, 40g contains around 80mg DMT. This is where the real Journey's kick ass, at 30g leaf or 60mg DMT.

I would not experiment with alcoholic tinctures, etc. until you have the simple 2 minute kneading/crushing method down using a spoon and 10 to 12 drops of water...this is the same way scientist made the oral Ofloxacin, a second generation fluroquinolones more orally bioavailable by 54 to 89 percent, using kneading and crushing of HPBCD to the host drug, see study on post #15. Same way chemist Patrick Arnold taught how to prepare sublingual HPBCD pro-hormones back in the bodybuilding deja news user groups back in the day, which was bought out later by google groups.

The sublingual journey begins in only 1/2 the time of an oral Ayahuasca experience, so in 22 minutes vs. normal 45 minutes...identical to the "come up period" for the 100mg sublingual viagra study on page 1. But the cool thing is that it lasts the same amount of time as an oral Ayahuasca experience = 90 minutes.

There is ZERO nausea, ZERO dizziness, ZERO queasiness feelings as there is no DMT or harmine going thru the stomach and intestines, that's the tradeoff you gain for the sting you endure.

The sublingual HPBCD DMT simulates an oral Ayahuasca experience, not vaped DMT, sorry if I did not clarify that earlier. She is just as beautiful and transcendent as any of my highest dosage cactus tea experiences.

300mg THH taken 45 minutes earlier then 80mg sublingual DMT complexed to 560 "plain" HPBCD (use 640mg HPBCD if it's the 2-hydroxy) feels to me like around 600mg plus of mescaline, she is VERY trippy, beautiful beyond belief, music is so incredible.

You will not feel anything with less than 20mg DMT complexed to 160mg 2-hydroxy HPBCD sublingually. And 20mg DMT is only a level 1 on the Shulgin strength scale from 1 to 5.

Seriously, there is nothing to be afraid of, most should up their dose to 60mg complexed to 420mg HPBCD, use 480mg if using the 2-hydroxy propyl beta cyclodextrin...I guarantee you will be flying high.

The higher dosage is needed as horsepower for the full 1.5 hour.

Post #27330099 is one of the most important posts of this thread and talks about the Planet in crisis, and why the Ayahuasca Queen wanted this discovered and propagated.

Post #27320774 contains the mind-blowing 5 hour visionary 300mg THH taken once (10.5 hour half life) + 60mg DMT complexed to 420mg HPBCD redosed x 3 times (every 1.5 hour) report.

The visions inspired me to buy a book on the Aztec myth of "Quetzalcoatl, the serpent of precious feathers", as I feel somehow this entity is a "teacher to mankind". I saw the brightly colored serpents many times in the 5 hours of visions, and now I understand why they are so commonly reported in Ayahuasca journeys.

They seem to possess divine knowledge that humans were not supposed to have been privileged to, but the serpents gifted this knowledge to humankind.

I recently found a 1.5 hour video on Amazon prime entitled "Ancient Alien Origins" which is all about this ancient alien flying serpent or dragon entity which is found in all religions of the world, very interesting video, highly recommend.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861&p=5

pic1: Sublingual & oral DMT horsepower, women riding horses, where the Queen of the forest lives, Ayahuasca.

pic2: Priestess of Quetzalcoatl





Edited by tregar (06/09/21 12:52 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27342480 - 06/10/21 05:56 AM (8 days, 8 hours ago)

Summary:

I will for sure be using this stuff for the rest of my life, so love it. I use in place of my high dose cactus tea when I trip at home now, dirt cheap, and save my rare cactus for outdoors only. She is VERY trippy, just as beautiful and transcendent as high dose cactus tea. 300mg tetrahydroharmine, or THH 45 minutes taken orally before + 80mg DMT complexed to 560mg HPBCD taken sublingually under tongue is a level 5 maxed out Shulgin strength level trip & feels to me very similar to 600mg plus of mescaline, beautiful beyond belief, neon intricate geometrics open eyed on the walls with splashes of neon color washing the walls, colored sparklets flying in the air like fireworks and fantastic closed eye visuals/visions & music is so incredible. See post #54 for 5 hour report.

Procedure: 300mg tetrahydroharmine (use from 150mg to 300mg) taken 45 minutes before orally + 80mg DMT complexed to 560mg HPBCD, use 640mg if using the 2-hydroxy propyl beta cyclodextrin using 12 drops very hot water from a nearby coffee mug all mashed together for 2 minutes on a spoon, using the end of another spoon to mash & knead it all together.

Then taken sublingually by placing bottom of tongue on to spoon, it will all adhere to bottom of tongue...hold for 15 minutes under tongue in the sublingual mucosa, then spit out any saliva (but not what's under your tongue), continue to hold any residue under tongue for 10 more minutes, never release your tongue the whole 25 minutes...press down hard with tongue the whole time to trap complex in the sublingual mucosa. 22 minutes after you begin all of this, you will go from sober to full throttle, a level 5 experience for 90 minutes, then you can re-dose by two more times every 1.5 hour in order to trip heavy all night.

If you can't tolerate the sting, you can take the HPBCD DMT orally by mixing into 200mg harmine + 150mg to 300mg THH tea all mixed together in 2oz very hot water, take at the exact same time all mixed together, just as the Shaman's do. The HPBCD DMT turns 100% clear when it hits the hot water. Use 100mg crushed vit c to make the harmine and thh absorb into the water should they be in freebase form.

Use a 1:1 molar ratio of DMT to HPBCD to trap all the DMT inside the tornado HPBCD cone.
This means 1:7mg weight ratio of DMT to HPBCD for the plain HPBCD.
This means 1:8mg weight ratio of DMT to HPBCD for the 2-hydroxy propyl beta cyclodextrin.

Don't forget THH doubles the half-life of the DMT, so that's why you get a 90 minute very strong trip. Very long afterglow after that as well. I am off to beach for a week, then waterpark and weight room for the summer, have a good weekend & summer.



Edited by tregar (06/10/21 08:18 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27344822 - 06/11/21 09:25 PM (6 days, 16 hours ago)

soo, does it work without the THH or not? as it "doubles halflife" in your body, i wonder how it could do that? reduce breakdown of dmt.. but break down non enzymaticlly? or perhaps mechanism isnt yet understood or as. aplant extract contains small amounts of maoi harmaline aswell;). as the use timing, description of what it does (reduce breakdown/extending half life) is suspiciously like normal pharma aya.


I suspect if u take your complex dmt thh sublingual and compare to normal thh dmt sublingual would be very close.  ie the combo of thh and dmt being the key, not the complex.. ssri s are known to decrease affects of tryptamines, not make them stronger.. so if thh is a classic ssri it may decrease affects however chances are it has maoi type activity either itself or because an impure plant extract with harmaline. also one would assume if thh had ssri it would be dangerous to take with harmalineso whole plant tea would be a sketchy combo and may get the syndrome... as even ssri s that are heavily studied arent fully uderstood, i imagine THH if ever studied again may prove to be more of an maoi type action increasing seritonin or metabolized and creates more classic harmaline type action. just a guess.. anyway, if complex doesnt work (or barely different then sublingual dmt without THH) i suspect the THH is not adding per say but decreasing break down of dmt in the body (as u even stated). it seems pretty obvious if look objectively.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27348353 - 06/14/21 09:35 PM (3 days, 16 hours ago)

Don't forget, this can also be used orally with 200mg harmine + 150 to 300mg THH as well, all mixed together into 2oz hot water tea, and taken at exact same time, use 100mg crushed vit C to help harmalas absorb should they be in freebase form, mix and drink all at exact same time just as Shaman's do...several factors stronger than DMT salts, 60mg feels just like actual 30g Hawaiian psychotria leaf, 80mg HPBCD DMT feels just like 40mg Hawaiian psychotria leaf, VERY STRONG, 70mg HPBCD DMT is like sit in your seat and don't move for 1 hour strong. The HPBCD DMT turns 100% completely clear when it hits the 2oz hot water tea, totally translucent.

With 70mg HPBCD DMT mixed into 200mg harmine + 300mg THH 2oz hot water tea, on earlier trip, saw walls fill with intricate 3-D honeycomb brown & orange geometrics, neon splashes of color floating in the air, music incredible, closed eye geometrics morphing and spinning. All objects around me caught in a sort of "teleportation like fortress of neon color". High frequency body vibration was very strong.

I love the longer trips, will explain below.

Someone mentioned they provided the DMT reddit with a link to this, but nobody over there seems to be interested at all...they seem to be only into the few minute "roller coaster ride" of smoked DMT. The topic also seems to get buried under a hundred other posts by day's end.

I am just the opposite, I prefer the 90 minute x repeat by twice for a 4.5 hour strong experience all night, with of course 300mg THH taken 45 minutes before it all. I grew up taking Ayahuasca x 70 times & strong cactus tea x 200 times, so I like trips that resemble cactus.

The 5-day beach trip was a complete blast...there was a group of 8 of us (5 women, 3 guys). We rented a gorgeous beach house with 4 bedrooms & pool two blocks from beach. We went to waterpark the 1st day, so much fun...walked the boardwalk with our dogs early in the morning and at night, visited a couple restaurants, 2nd day went out to pier, boardwalk, played at beach, hung out at beach-house pool every afternoon and night, etc. Visited other areas of the beach, boardwalk & town next 3 days.

So nice to get away from my "air-conditioned ant hill of a job" for a long while.

We are doing this every year for 5 days we had so much fun! Back home, thankfully we have a waterpark here where I get a summer pass every summer, go at least once a week all summer long...used to lifeguard at beach in my 20's, and later trained lifeguards at waterpark I live by. Water spirit here. There were so many people at beach and on the boardwalk, absolute Heaven. I walked for 2 hours from 20th street to 50th street and back one afternoon, people-watching & stopping at several piers.

I used to be 150 lbs until my freshman friend in college dragged me to the fieldhouse gym the football players worked out at, put on 30lbs of muscle in two years after that. I remember the first day I worked out, puked pretty hard when I got back to dorm room. Very sore for a few weeks, then it got easier to handle after that.

On the day I went to waterpark, I downed a 6oz boiled down tea made from 2 x 12" long medium size (2.5" thick diameter) genuine strong san pedro  :biggrin: that I had prepared before the trip (kept frozen till re-heated), super bitter and tripped my ass off at the waterpark...I always take cactus tea anytime I go to waterpark, been doing that for years. Complete blast. the tea felt like about 500mg of mescaline.

I've never purged from taking THH, try putting it in a capsule voidmatrix? my weight is 210, bodyfat 12%. Weight lifter since my early 20's. I get zero nausea and zero dizziness from it, completely benign to me. Only slight dizziness if I go above 300mg, but none at all below that.

As mentioned earlier, 300mg THH taken 45 minutes earlier, then sublingual 80mg DMT complexed to 560mg HPBCD (use 640mg if using the 2-hydroxy PBCD) feels to me very similar to 600mg plus of mescaline, absolutely beautiful beyond belief, which is what I use to trip on at home all the time now, and save my cactus for outdoors only. I re-dose the sublingual HPBCD DMT every 1.5 hour to continue the journey and fun for 4.5 hours total.



Edited by tregar (06/14/21 11:03 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27348576 - 06/15/21 01:06 AM (3 days, 12 hours ago)

soo any effects with just complexed dmt no THH?  i think people arent interested as the complex is for fat soluble hormones (think thats what u cited no?) and wont work better then normal sublingual/snorted dmt ie sorta.. but again as u stated teh THH makes blood levels higher for longer correct? similar to what MAOI would do ie ur taking small doses of aya not dmt;) dmt+maoi=aya..

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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27348732 - 06/15/21 06:13 AM (3 days, 7 hours ago)

I still need to explore HPBCD...but I did my first experiment with just THH and mush. It felt like a much more emotional and feminine energy than usual. I also felt more physically drained afterward, but that could just be coincidence.

Thanks for the recommendation, tregar!


Brief trip report below:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27348729


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27349121 - 06/15/21 12:47 PM (3 days, 1 hour ago)

the man, just give it a try already! Thanks for report LeafRaker!

I have used this stuff sublingually (if you count the number of times I re-dosed in an evening) around 18 times in 3 month period, each time it is just as strong as an oral dose, in other words 80mg HPBCD DMT sublingual is just as strong as 80mg HPBCD DMT used orally with 200mg harmine + 150mg to 300mg THH all mixed together in a 2oz very hot water tea...no difference in strength. I tolerate the sting very well, no issues. But yes, just use it orally if you want. It is several factors stronger than DMT salts used orally. I should know I ran a dozen experiments with DMT salts long ago, and the HPBCD DMT blows it away in strength & all encompassing just like the Hawaiian psychotria leaf.

Here is a pic of the REAL san pedro I use everytime I go to waterpark, I make a tea out of 2 of these bad boys (2.5" thick x 12" long) and boil the tea down to 6oz, no foam, and filter thru a cotton ball in a funnel after boil down....tea made from two feels like 500mg mescaline, extremely beautiful at the waterpark...great for outdoors...trip my ass off. I use 300mg THH taken orally 45 minutes before the sublingual 80mg HPBCD DMT x redosed every 1.5 to 2 hours at home, it feels JUST LIKE 600mg plus of mescaline...beautiful beyond belief. Substitutes for the cactus for "at home use" VERY trippy, my 2 loves, oral THH + sublingual HPBCD DMT x 3 time re-dose all evening, or cactus tea for outdoors....both infinitely & profoundly beautiful.

The sports supplement place I got the plain HPBCD went out of business once pro-hormones became illegal, just like alot of other places, they carried the 1kg containers for price of two movie tickets right next to all the pro-hormones for sale, so that you could complex them at home for sublingual use, all this was explained "how to do" by chemist & weight lifter Patrick Arnold on part 5 of this paper at beginning. This is who I learned it from.

Pic: Cacti woman with four REAL san pedro each 2.5" thick x 12" long, each one equivalent of around 250mg mescaline.



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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27349291 - 06/15/21 02:56 PM (2 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

tregar said:
....80mg HPBCD DMT sublingual is just as strong as 80mg HPBCD DMT used orally with 200mg harmine + 150mg to 300mg THH all mixed together in a 2oz very hot water tea...no difference in strength.





I haven't read through the thread yet, lots & lots to read through.

But just wondering...

So you are taking DMT mixed with the HPBCD sublingually and with out any MAOI involved at all, and the DMT is active that way? And it is just as active that way as it is when taken with harmine & THH?

If so, what is going on that is preventing MAO from metabolizing the DMT?

Interesting :strokebeard: .




-OM

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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: openmind]
    #27349537 - 06/15/21 05:45 PM (2 days, 20 hours ago)

openmind said:
Quote:

So you are taking DMT mixed with the HPBCD sublingually and with out any MAOI involved at all, and the DMT is active that way? And it is just as active that way as it is when taken with harmine & THH?

If so, what is going on that is preventing MAO from metabolizing the DMT?


Yes, no maoi is involved. Yes, the DMT is active this way, and it is active for 90 full strong minutes so long as you take THH 45 minutes before orally, as it doubles the half-life of the DMT, THH is an SRI, not an MAOI. See what Dennis Mckenna saids about this below.

Final summary below:

I have used this stuff sublingually (if you count the number of times I re-dosed in an evening) around 18 times in 3 month period, each time it is just as strong as an oral dose, in other words 80mg HPBCD DMT sublingual is just as strong as 80mg HPBCD DMT used orally with 200mg harmine + 150mg to 300mg THH all mixed together in a 2oz very hot water tea...no difference in strength. Use 100mg of crushed vit C to make the harmalas absorb into the hot water tea if they are in freebase form. Drink all mixed together into the hot water tea at the exact same time, just as Shaman's do for the highest strength.

Use a 1:1 molar ratio of DMT to HPBCD to trap all the DMT inside the tornado HPBCD cone.
This means 1:7mg weight ratio of DMT to HPBCD for the plain HPBCD. (60mg DMT to 420mg HPBCD)
This means 1:8mg weight ratio of DMT to HPBCD for the 2-hydroxy propyl beta cyclodextrin. (60mg DMT to 480mg 2-hydroxy PBCD)

I tolerate the sting very well, no issues. But yes fog, just use it orally if you want. It is several factors stronger than DMT salts used orally. I should know I ran a dozen experiments with 70 to 120mg DMT salts long ago, and the HPBCD DMT blows it away in strength & all encompassing just like the Hawaiian psychotria leaf. The DMT salts were all only +3 mild on Shulgin scale, while 70mg of HPBCD DMT is a +5 on Shulgin scale whether used orally with harmine or by itself sublingually. But always include from 150mg to 300mg THH no matter what.

Procedure: 300mg tetrahydroharmine (use from 150mg to 300mg) taken 45 minutes before orally + 80mg DMT complexed to 560mg HPBCD, use 640mg if using the 2-hydroxy propyl beta cyclodextrin using 12 drops very hot water from a nearby coffee mug all mashed together for 2 minutes on a spoon, using the end of another spoon to mash & knead it all together.

Then taken sublingually by placing bottom of tongue on to spoon, it will all adhere to bottom of tongue...hold for 15 minutes under tongue in the sublingual mucosa, then spit out any saliva (but not what's under your tongue), continue to hold any residue under tongue for 10 more minutes, never release your tongue the whole 25 minutes...press down hard with tongue the whole time to trap complex in the sublingual mucosa. 22 minutes after you begin all of this, you will go from sober to full throttle, a level 5 experience for 90 minutes, then you can re-dose by two more times every 1.5 hour in order to trip heavy all night.

The sports supplement place I got the plain HPBCD went out of business once pro-hormones became illegal, just like alot of other places, they carried the 1kg containers for price of two movie tickets right next to all the pro-hormones for sale, so that you could complex them at home for sublingual use, all this was explained "how to do" by chemist & weight lifter Patrick Arnold on part 5 of this paper at beginning. This is who I learned it from.

The importance of tetrahydroharmine (THH):

1. Post #12 shows how to convert harmaline to THH in 1.5 hour with 75% yield. It is the 2nd highest ingredient in Caapi based true Ayahuasca.

2. Dennis Mckenna Ph.D: page 115 "Thus, tetrahydroharmine prolongs the half-life of DMT by blocking it's intraneuronal uptake, and hence, its inactivation by MAO, localized in mitochondria within the neuron." In my experience, THH doubles the half-life of DMT, so when used sublingually or orally, you get a full strong 90 minutes out of it with long afterglow. See attached paper.

3. DMT only colors are subdued and dark, but THH brightens the DMT visuals: out of this world impossible bright neon colors are a trait of high dose oral tetrahydroharmine + moderate dose 60 to 70mg+ sublingual or oral HPBCD DMT: neon red-greens, neon orange-blues, neon purple-yellows.

4. DMT does not block serotonin on it's own, but THH does...this results in not only stimulation but euphoria in combo with the DMT: and real Ayahuasca visions become apparent...important teamwork.

5. THH has numerous similarities to mescaline, not only does it block serotonin like mescaline, LSD & shrooms, but it agonizes all 3 adrenal receptors just like mescaline, which are associated with beauty & aesthetics appreciation, beauty enhancement is "over the top" when THH is included.

6. THH is found in average 150mg in a cup of Caapi based Ayahuasca tea, when 2 cups are drank for evening at the vegetals, people are consuming around 300mg of THH.

7. Music will only sound bad-ass incredible if you include from 150mg to 300mg oral THH with your sublingual or oral DMT.

8. See post #42 (top of page 3) for 5 hour visionary journey using 300mg oral THH taken 45 minutes before, then sublingual 60mg HPBCD DMT taken every 1.5 hour, mind-blowing CEV's for hours on end, music super-incredible all night long.

The visions inspired me to buy a book on the Aztec myth of "Quetzalcoatl, the serpent of precious feathers", as I feel somehow this entity is a "teacher to mankind". I saw the brightly colored serpents many times in the 5 hours of visions, and now I understand why they are so commonly reported in Ayahuasca journeys.

They seem to possess divine knowledge that humans were not supposed to have been privileged to, but the serpents gifted this knowledge to humankind.

I recently found a 1.5 hour video on Amazon prime entitled "Ancient Alien Origins" which is all about this ancient alien flying serpent or dragon entity which is found in all religions of the world, very interesting video, highly recommend.

Here is a pic of the REAL san pedro I use everytime I go to waterpark, I make a tea out of 2 of these bad boys (2.5" thick x 12" long) and boil the tea down to 6oz, no foam, and filter thru a cotton ball in a funnel after boil down....tea made from two feels like 500mg mescaline, extremely beautiful at the waterpark...great for outdoors...trip my ass off. I use 300mg THH taken orally 45 minutes before the sublingual 80mg HPBCD DMT x redosed every 1.5 to 2 hours at home, it feels JUST LIKE 600mg plus of mescaline...beautiful beyond belief. Substitutes for the cactus for "at home use" VERY trippy, my 2 loves, oral THH + sublingual HPBCD DMT x 3 time re-dose all evening, or cactus tea for outdoors....both infinitely & profoundly beautiful.

Pic1: Cacti woman with four REAL san pedro each 2.5" thick x 12" long, each one equivalent of around 250mg mescaline.

pic2: teamwork of everyone here was important

pic3: Priestess of Quetzalcoatl

pic4: easy 2 step process & strength chart









Edited by tregar (06/15/21 06:45 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27349957 - 06/15/21 11:31 PM (2 days, 14 hours ago)

he is taking it with THH which has now been found to be MAOI.. so yes its just pharma aya. and as far as teh complex goes its more for fat based molecules ie hormones etc. (may be helpful for thc?) and from what i have seen and know about how it works its unlikely adds any absorbtion to water soluble dmt salts. freebase perhaps, but probably less then water soluble already is abosrbed..

here is what pops up for thh being maoi..i mean its pretty obvious if actually has been found to increase halflife of dmt

"THH, like other harmala alkaloids, appears to be suitable primarily for oral use. Doses of 100 mg have already perceptive effect, the full dose is considered to be 300 mg, which is also the dose for sufficient inhibition of MAO (for use in psychedelic therapies). Sublingual use is also popular and effective, where the full dose is already 50 mg."

point being "complexed" dmt is no more active then subligual dmt salts from what i can see..  if get full blown effects with complex vs same dose of pure dmt then would be of interest and why likely as he stated"dont get why reddit isnt getting excited". the whole purpose of HPBCD is to get non water soluble drugs to move through lipid water membranes.. ie nicotine caffien is water soluble goes through the buccal tissue very easy, while thc is alot harder to go through your mouth tissue(ie snorted cocaine vs thc). it has been used for getting micro milligram amounts of hormones through skin not large many mg doses.. so is it better to have a freebase dmt complexed for absorbtion vs watr soluble form? i would say water soluble would be better absorbed through buccal tissue. in otherwords a step back

effects are only from weak maoi action then taking dmt for a form of pharma aya so duration is shorter and effects come a bit quicker as holding in your mouth.

not taking anything away from you enjoying ur mix, just that its more a pharmaya not a smoked dmt replacement.

sometimes I wish murple was still around to straighten us all out

here is an article saying potetial for THH to be a neurotoxin https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4614-1542-8_5 so may not be super wise to take it ALL the time just incase...


Edited by the man (06/16/21 02:02 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: openmind]
    #27350066 - 06/16/21 02:10 AM (2 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

openmind said:
Quote:

tregar said:
....80mg HPBCD DMT sublingual is just as strong as 80mg HPBCD DMT used orally with 200mg harmine + 150mg to 300mg THH all mixed together in a 2oz very hot water tea...no difference in strength.





I haven't read through the thread yet, lots & lots to read through.

But just wondering...

So you are taking DMT mixed with the HPBCD sublingually and with out any MAOI involved at all, and the DMT is active that way? And it is just as active that way as it is when taken with harmine & THH?

If so, what is going on that is preventing MAO from metabolizing the DMT?

Interesting :strokebeard: .




-OM

.





yes THH is teh MAOI involved making it orally active, infact he even quoted it from mckenna saying exactly that "inhibition of the MAO... makes half life 2x).. and he even uses it exactly how would want to use an MAOI taken before the doses. SRI tend to make trips weaker not stronger aswell if need more PROOF other then tragers quote of mckenna saying its an MAOI.

so could be dangerous for folks who dont think they are taking an MAOI... sorry trager not to keep dumping on your parade but have to remember wiki doesnt always have things correct :wink:

This is pharma aya with extra steps, nothing more. try adding acid to your dmt making it water soluble and compare with your THH maoi mix and see if it works better then the complex :wink:


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27350432 - 06/16/21 11:36 AM (2 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

the man said:
Quote:

openmind said:
Quote:

tregar said:
....80mg HPBCD DMT sublingual is just as strong as 80mg HPBCD DMT used orally with 200mg harmine + 150mg to 300mg THH all mixed together in a 2oz very hot water tea...no difference in strength.





I haven't read through the thread yet, lots & lots to read through.

But just wondering...

So you are taking DMT mixed with the HPBCD sublingually and with out any MAOI involved at all, and the DMT is active that way? And it is just as active that way as it is when taken with harmine & THH?

If so, what is going on that is preventing MAO from metabolizing the DMT?

Interesting :strokebeard: .




-OM

.





yes THH is teh MAOI involved making it orally active, infact he even quoted it from mckenna saying exactly that "inhibition of the MAO... makes half life 2x).. and he even uses it exactly how would want to use an MAOI taken before the doses. SRI tend to make trips weaker not stronger aswell if need more PROOF other then tragers quote of mckenna saying its an MAOI.

so could be dangerous for folks who dont think they are taking an MAOI... sorry trager not to keep dumping on your parade but have to remember wiki doesnt always have things correct :wink:

This is pharma aya with extra steps, nothing more. try adding acid to your dmt making it water soluble and compare with your THH maoi mix and see if it works better then the complex :wink:




I think you're missing some of the points.

1. He did do the same test with salted DMT and the only difference was the salt burns the mouth, hence the reason to use the complex for sublingual.

2.  He did tests with THH preceding the DMT dose and also at the same time as the DMT dose, both worked. Weak argument anyway since traditional brews don't time out their caapi and DMT, it's all in one cup.

3. The article you linked about THH = neurotoxic seems unsure. In the last line of the abstract it leaves the possibility that it has a completely opposite, neuroprotective effect.

4. THH was believed to be an MAOI but more recently was demonstrated to be a weak SSRI. If they more recently switched back to believing its an MAOI, can you link to that?



Here's a quote from that article that is a little eery tho:
"Among βC cations, the most potent neurotoxins are N,N-dimethylated βC cations (2,9-diMe-βC+s) that are produced from sequential N-methylation of βCs at the N-2 (pyrido) and N-9 (indole) nitrogens." Interesting how N,N-Dimethyl pops up there. Maybe Aya is just DMT contributing its N,N-Dimethyl to beta carbolines to make a potent neurotoxin?


Edited by Icon (06/16/21 11:53 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27350733 - 06/16/21 03:01 PM (1 day, 22 hours ago)

Now I am just confused...I feel people are saying totally different things here




Quote:

tregar said:

Quote:

openmind said:So you are taking DMT mixed with the HPBCD sublingually and with out any MAOI involved at all, and the DMT is active that way? And it is just as active that way as it is when taken with harmine & THH?

If so, what is going on that is preventing MAO from metabolizing the DMT?


Yes, no maoi is involved. Yes, the DMT is active this way







Quote:

the man said:
he is taking it with THH which has now been found to be MAOI.. so yes its just pharma aya.






Tregar is saying this is being done with out any MAOI involved, just DMT and HPBCD held underneath the tongue.

Tregar is saying that DMT is active sublingually when mixed with HPBCD, with out ever taking any MAOI at all.

But then "The man" is saying that this method IS in fact being done/taken with an MAOI/THH....he says that this is basically just pharma-aya that is being taken in a sublingual manner.

So what is going on here?

Can someone explain what this is all about simply in just a few sentences or with just a few basic "points".




What I am wondering about.

-Is this a way that DMT can be taken with out any MAOI involved, or is this basically just sublingual pharma-aya?

-If this is a way for DMT to be taken with out an MAOI...Then how does HPBCD allow DMT to become active in the body with out any MAOI involved?

-How is MAO not metabolizing the DMT when it is taken sublingually with HPBCD?




Sublingual administration skips first pass metabolism, but if I understand things correctly there is a lot of MAO in the brain and the DMT in the blood stream will eventually pass through the liver where there is a lot of MAO. I just don't see how DMT can be active with out any inhibition of MAO, even if it is taken under the tongue.


Either way...interesting stuff for sure! I have always been curious about "sublingual" DMT. Just want some clarification on what is going on here, if this is being done with or with out the inhibition of MAO.





-OM

.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: openmind] * 1
    #27351035 - 06/16/21 06:38 PM (1 day, 19 hours ago)

It's my understanding that the complexed freebase is passing straight into the blood stream, which allows it to work similarly to boofing or injecting it.

I can't find any Tregar posts about just sublingual complexed freebase though, seems all these trials are about that + THH. So now we're debating whether THH is affecting the experience because it's actually an MAOI that is extending the half life of DMT after it's cycling the blood stream, or if it's an SSRI and having a synergizing effect in some other way.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Icon]
    #27351085 - 06/16/21 07:36 PM (1 day, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Icon said:
It's my understanding that the complexed freebase is passing straight into the blood stream, which allows it to work similarly to boofing or injecting it.

I can't find any Tregar posts about just sublingual complexed freebase though, seems all these trials are about that + THH. So now we're debating whether THH is affecting the experience because it's actually an MAOI that is extending the half life of DMT after it's cycling the blood stream, or if it's an SSRI and having a synergizing effect in some other way.





I see.

I'm caught up and understand now lol.





-OM

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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: openmind]
    #27351558 - 06/17/21 02:25 AM (1 day, 11 hours ago)

"2.  He did tests with THH preceding the DMT dose and also at the same time as the DMT dose, both worked. Weak argument anyway since traditional brews don't time out their caapi and DMT, it's all in one cup.


Thats fine, but doesnt mean it isnt MAOI.. pharma aya folks take MAOI first then shrooms or dmt is what i was saying..

did he make a salt or just freebase dmt that burnt tho :wink:

anyway, long and short of it is doesn't really work without the THH.. if worked as an SRI it would dampin trips would it not?

long and short of it its an aya like mix... likes the effects so who am i to argue with that but should be aware your taking a weak maoi.


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