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Onlinethe man
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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #27283394 - 04/27/21 05:00 AM (1 month, 21 days ago)

why not just use dmt salt ie water soluble? the compound u are talking about is for fats..ie test is fat injection


why not just snort cmt hcl like a gentlmen lol.. or just sublingually as water souble  and if taking with caapi extract chances are just eating ayahuasca. as caapi would be unneeded if went direcctly to blood..  or simply effects of the thh

long story short if arent seeing elves its not a dmt trip :wink:


Edited by the man (04/27/21 05:09 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27283417 - 04/27/21 06:40 AM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Physics envy said:
Quote:

Thank you for this tek, Tregar!

I have a (small) bottle of HPBCD laying around from an experiment a few of us worked on to complex salvinorin-A on the Nexus a few years ago.  I'll give this a shot sometime soon :-)

Perhaps this next part should be a separate post, but maybe you or someone else on here will know this answer quickly...I have a small bag of material that I believe was included as a gift when purchasing some vine/leaves/rue seeds/etc. from an online botanical store a decade ago.  It's labeled 'Banisteriopsis Caapi AYAHUASCA "White" Vine (4) Extract 10:1 (5 gram)'.  It looks kind of like finely ground up rue.  I'm assuming it is mainly harmine and THH with some harmaline, but maybe someone here would have a better idea if this is an accurate assumption?

I tested it recently with my intention being to smoke a small bowl prior to smoking some n,n-dmt to see if it would extend and potentiate the trip.  I assumed it would be like smoking caapi leaves prior to dmt, which tends to affect the trip a bit for me.

However, smoking the caapi vine extract gave me an unexpected trip itself - I was caught completely off-guard.  Your description of a 'diamond-like' quality reminds me of how the visuals felt/looked. It was similar to a low-dose dmt trip.

So if I were to eat this prior to using the complexed dmt, how much would you suggest using?  And/or should I try this by itself w/o the dmt first?  Would you take the 10x into account and take say 30mg of this?




Typewritermonky, thanks for your comments  on page 1 and please report back should  you try this either sublingually or orally with a harmala or caapi combination.

The man, I've spent an hour looking up countless threads on sublingual or nasal DMT fumarate and they were disappointing reads, I have no explanation for why the HPBCD complexed DMT works so well. P.S. I vastly prefer Ayahuasca imho. I've had over 70 Ayahuasca journeys now.

Physics envy, thanks for your experience, Yes, there is a "diamondlike quality" with THH, for me this is seen around 150 to 250mg, 250mg to 300mg results in intense closed eye visions, all of this with tetrahydroharmine alone by itself, in TIHKAL, 300mg of THH was equated to the visionary power of 100mg harmaline, but without all the nausea and dizziness

Unfortunately, I cannot tell  you how much of the 10x caapi extract you have to use, I would simply say to keep experimenting.

If anyone gets anything out of this thread, to remember that this can be a super ALTERNATIVE  to making the DMT fumarate salt.

Keep in mind that making the fumarate salt is a somewhat long involved process with many steps, whereas using HPBCD, you can form a water soluble DMT compound in 30 seconds that can even be used orally with a RIMA: (example, harmine) and SRI: (THH) combination, with everything dissolved all together in a hot tea, all taken at the exact same time (just as the Shaman's do) for a powerful Ayahuasca, that will be quite potent orally.

Thanks for reading tyrannicalrex, I know you too!


Edited by tregar (04/27/21 08:14 PM)


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Onlinethe man
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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27283795 - 04/27/21 01:17 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

I imagine the fumarate produces more profound experience compared to your complex in effects?  again if actually going intoyour blood effectively there is zero need for an maoi other then to maybe make it last longer like aya? however likely what is ahppening is u are just eating small doses of aya ie dmt and cappi in ur mouth that u end  up eating..

guess a question would be why do u need caapi? is caapi needed to smoke? or in fumurate preps? why is dmt effective smoked?

dmt has been sniffed for thousands of years...


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27283829 - 04/27/21 01:48 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Hey to be clear, because I'm rereading and second guessing -


I have a little dmt that I extracted from bark. I'm new to dmt. I do not want to take thh or an maoi, nor do I have access. I also have issues smoking anything - I cough and cough and cough. I was going to deal with the coughing hoping it wouldnt be too bad if I was carful not to burn the spice.

This hpbcd would allow me a comfortable experience (and work w/o thh or harmala or caapi etc) sublingually. Correct?


Sorry, greenhorn here, don't want to waste even a crumb. Appreciate the guidance, greatly. :takingnotes::hug:


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: RoadAppleSnapple]
    #27283846 - 04/27/21 02:10 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Neat info tregar...thanks for sharing!! I remember your thread on bluelight for complexing 25i


--------------------
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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: redeyesmj] * 1
    #27289484 - 05/01/21 07:51 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Yes, you have it down RoadAppleSnapple.

redeyesmj said:
Quote:

Neat info tregar...thanks for sharing!! I remember your thread on bluelight for complexing 25i



Thanks redeyesmj.

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Edited by tregar (05/02/21 10:08 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27291303 - 05/03/21 03:00 AM (1 month, 15 days ago)

see below:


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:59 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27292261 - 05/03/21 05:11 PM (1 month, 14 days ago)

HPBCD only forms inclusion complexes with non-polar compounds. With a hydrophobic interior and hydrophilic exterior, cyclodextrins form complexes with hydrophobic compounds. Hydrophobic molecules are usually nonpolar, like freebase DMT for example. Hydrophobic literally means “the fear of water”

HPBCD is a new technology that allows freebase nonpolar drugs like DMT to be trapped by the cyclodextrin inner hydrophobic cavity which is composed of an inner "non-polar trap", and "outer polar cavity or hydrophilic exterior cone" which allows the normally water insoluble DMT to be made 100% water soluble.

As mentioned earlier, only a portion or "tail end" of DMT molecule needs to be trapped in the HPBCD cone...I wonder if more than one DMT molecule can trap itself inside "just one single HPBCD molecular cone"? Maybe downwardsfromzero has an answer.

If so, I can see how much less HPBCD can be used. The DMT molecule is very small compared to the inner HPBCD cone. Using much less HPBCD would prove a valuable experiment.

Notice the authors of the ofloxacin HPBCD study not only used a 1:1 molar ratio like I copied, but they also "kneaded" or mashed the HPBCD into the host drug with their hands, just like I did with the HPBCD placed on top the DMT in the spoon with many drops of water...I used the end of a spoon to crush and mash or knead it all together into a sticky glob (just like cartoon above) with 30 seconds of stirring with a toothpick, then placed sticky glob under tongue for 15 minutes.

I can't stress how important it is to use "clean dmt". As mentioned in post #1, used DMT that had been cleaned up using a sodium carbonate wash, you don't want any remnants of sodium hydroxide going directly into your bloodstream, the simple sodium carbonate wash gets rid of any lingering residue (should there be any) from DMT crystals.

Girl & boy caught in waterpark tornado funnel ride, picture host drug being caught in HPBCD cone.


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:58 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27294963 - 05/05/21 05:05 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

why would maoi be needed if going into blood?  dont think this works my man passing hormones bucally is much diffeent..


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: the man]
    #27295023 - 05/05/21 06:33 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

THH is an SRI, it's not a RIMA or MAOI. It's the 2nd highest ingredient in Caapi, it hits many of the same receptors as mescaline receptorome data has shown, it blocks serotonin like mescaline, dmt does not block serotonin.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27298069 - 05/07/21 06:41 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

The combination of the two (oral THH taken 1 hour earlier) and sublingual under the tongue DMT for 15 minutes results in the "full monty", will give you an experience like strong cactus tea or true Ayahuasca, the full mind expansion transcendence. This is what a lot of people don't understand, is that Ayahuasca is teamwork between the various alkaloids.

Tetrahydroharmine was called by one researcher "the tryptamine of the beta-carboline world" to give an example of its remarkable visionary properties. It's an isomer of a hormonal-like compound found in the brain naturally, it's what gives Ayahuasca her telapathine or telethapy properties and hours of dream-like realistic closed eye visionary visions.

I've taken 300mg of THH on it's own many times and for hours with eyes closed I view endless dream-like visions, like slow and high speed movies being played for 2 hours, the detail is way beyond 4k, mind-blowing vistas...totally unlike normal dreams, she seems to tap into the "Akashic record" of the universe, the ether where all events, past, present, and future are stored...she shows you artwork, architecture, nature, culture, fantasy, history, the future, spiritual, supernatural. The visions are also characterized by the extraordinary beauty that they manifest.

DMT according to two studies posted in part 2 does not block serotonin on it's own, but THH does (like ibogaine, cactus, LSD, mushrooms), serotonin blocking results in stimulation and the breaking down of the survival filters or barriers in the mind, the combination of the two results in not just 20% receptor stimulation from the DMT alone, but 100% receptor stimulation, as 5-ht1a inhibition (serotonin blockage) makes up over 80% of brain 5-ht according to LSD scientist Dr. Nichols. Tetrahydroharmine has also been shown to agonize the A2A-A2C receptors, just like mescaline, they have numerous receptorome similarities.

You will notice with the combination of the two that music sounds incredible, closed eye visions are seen like those of "true Ayahuasca" described in "Antipodes of the Mind" by Benny Shanon, or cactus tea. Open eyed beauty is profound, impossible neon colors not seen on this earth become apparent.

Last night with a combination 250mg oral tetrahydroharmine dosage, and sublingual HPBCD DMT dosage of 50mg, when I waved my hand, I saw colored fractals inside the tracers. The duration is long with the sublingual DMT, it comes on in 1/2 the time of an oral dose, and you need much less of the drug than what is needed orally with a RIMA. One of the best parts is that I experience no nausea.

Out of this world impossible bright neon colors are a trait of high dose oral tetrahydroharmine + sublingual HPBCD DMT: neon red-greens, neon orange-blues, neon purple-yellows.


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:57 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27298128 - 05/07/21 08:21 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

well you can mix me up a batch


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27298173 - 05/07/21 09:16 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

you'd dig it it's the bees nees


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27298175 - 05/07/21 09:18 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I envy people who extract dmt it's the most awesome psychedelic maybe except for lsd


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27298176 - 05/07/21 09:18 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

mescaline is a second


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27298237 - 05/07/21 10:08 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I'm about to try cactus/mesc extraction HcL more than likely. I have a couple kilos of MHRB, probably a lifetime supply, lol. I could get 36 grams of DMT from them give or take.


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #27299754 - 05/08/21 09:10 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

well you can mix me up a batch


I would love too! But since I can't just buy some HPBCD powder, dirt cheap.

Ferdinando said:
Quote:

mescaline is a second


Full bodied cactus tea from 1 x 12" bridgesii or 2 x 12" medium thickness to 1 x 12" large thickness San Pedro is my absolute favorite, have done over 90 times now over many years, totally bad ass. The 250mg oral THH + 30mg on up sublingual HPBCD DMT ranks in the same, both equally VERY bad ass. I keep a trip diary over a period of many years. I've done Ayahuasca x 70 times now.

Tyrannicalrex said:
Quote:

I'm about to try cactus/mesc extraction HcL more than likely. I have a couple kilos of MHRB, probably a lifetime supply, lol. I could get 36 grams of DMT from them give or take.


Tell you what, just cut the cactus down the sides (de-core it), cut into chunks, peel the skin off each chunck, and boil the pieces for 1 hour, then strain thru a strainer and drink--so easy and kicks much ass--full bodied complete spectrum. Also, so glad to hear you have a lifetime supply of MHRB.


Edited by tregar (05/08/21 12:34 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar]
    #27301722 - 05/09/21 05:00 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

1) For the HPBCD DMT experiments, prefer using "clean DMT" or DMT that has been cleaned using a sodium carbonate wash, procedure below:

2) PKA of DMT is 8.75 or so, so please do not use a sodium bicarbonate wash -- it will eat up most of your DMT, as ph of bicarb is not high enough, it needs to be 1 to 2 points higher than PKA of DMT, at 11 or 11.5 or so is perfect, where 100% sodium carbonate PH is at, found in pool isle of home box store.

3) As performing a "sodium carbonate wash" on crystals AFTER they are freeze precipitated is a pain in the ass, will attempt to perform a sodium carbonate wash in real time this time, immediately on the 1st pull, and every pull thereafter.

4) For example, a procedure (based on Noman's or Norman's tek) which yields 1.5g DMT from 150 gram powdered bark: the first pull is using 75ml naptha on 150g powdered bark mixed into 1.7 liter lye water (1.5 x 150g bark = use 225g lye dissolved into the 1.7 liter 150 degree hot water by slowly sprinkling in lye using safety goggles and long chemical resistant gloves that go up each arm, and standing back as far as possible...the hot water will fizz but not boil up) in a 2 Liter erlenmeyer flask (.5 x 150g bark = use 75ml naptha pull for each of the 4 pulls). An erlenmeyer flask makes it easy to do pulls using a long glass pipette, as the top of flask is tapered, so all the naptha collects at the top for easy pull.

Use an electronic thermometer to check the temp of the Lye water bark mix, when the lye water cools down from 150 degree F to around 115 to 110 degree F, then it's time to add your 75ml of naptha, make sure your 2L flask is sitting on a mitten or similar...this makes it easy to swirl your flask to mix the contents, make sure you are using the proper rubber stopper number to seal the top of your flask once you turn it upside down then right side up to mix the contents as well.

Prefer to do a combination of swirling and a couple of upside down then right side up turns of the 2L flask, then once right side up, let the rubber stopper out, and let the stopper just barely sit in the flask (not tight), so gasses can exit. After 1/2 hour, all the 75ml of naptha will migrate & collect at the top of the tapered erlenmeyer flask...use your long glass pipette to collect the naptha, that's it! very easy, no mess, and the tapered erlenmeyer flask and glass pipette with round rubber plunger at the end makes it easy to collect the naptha at the top without collecting any lye water by accident. This is the way a chemist can do it.

to clean...then use 1/4 of the amount of each naptha pull or (0.25 x 75ml pull = use 19ml of warm water at 100 degree F with a dash of sodium carbonate dissolved into it) till ph = 11 to 11.5 of the wash water.

5) So then add the 75ml saturated naptha bark pull into a sep funnel, add 19ml of warm (100 degree F) sodium carbonate solution, and shake & swirl it all together in the sep funnel for 5 seconds, then separate off the bottom layer which will be the sodium carbonate water and dispose of it, and let out the top layer of sodium carbonate washed clean naptha into a 1/2 pint jar, put lid on jar, place in freezer, and freeze precipitate overnight, and collect clean crystals in morning by pouring over a coffee filter attached to a 1/2 pint wide jar with rubber band.

6) Will be using this new batch of real time "sodium carbonate wash cleaned naptha pull" DMT to do a series of HPBCD experiments later this week, will then report back, will be complexing 40mg of DMT to 280mg of HPBCD powder to form a sticky glob, will place under tongue for 15 minutes and take 250mg of tetrahydroharmine 1 hour earlier, and report back.

My procedure:
1) place 40mg of DMT onto a spoon
2) add 1:1 molar ratio of host drug to HPBCD powder, this means 1:7 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD
3) this means 40mg dmt placed on spoon, then add 280mg of HPBCD on top DMT
4) add many drops of water to the mix
5) Knead or crush the HPBCD powder into the dmt using the end of a spoon then stir it all for 30 seconds using a toothpick
6) place sticky glob (HPBCD powder forms sticky complexes) under tongue for 15 minutes
7) the "sticky glob" can be left out and the water will evaporate to leave a solid complex which can be placed under tongue too, but I never do this, I just directly place the sticky glob under tongue right away, 30 second procedure, works extremely well, same way weightlifters used to form HPBCD complexed pro-hormones back in the day before they were banned, for sublingual "under tongue" use.

The sticky HPBCD DMT glob looks similar to the cartoon below.

Erlenmeyer flask tapers towards the top, makes extractions easier using a glass pipette, as all the naptha collects in a narrow band tapered area near the top.


Edited by tregar (05/14/21 07:56 PM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: tregar] * 1
    #27302519 - 05/10/21 08:31 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I wrote about this on the DMT Nexus quite some time ago.  I doubt it was as far back as 2012, though.  Not really sure and am not the least bit motivated to research it.  Someone who is not as lazy as me could do a search.  I thought then that it should work brilliantly, and said so.  I was too chicken-shit to try it out on myself as a guinea pig, though, so let the matter lie.  I still have a VERY large bottle HPBCD in my safe.

Good to know someone with more chutzpah took the next step.

This morning I vaporized 23mg of DMT freebase using my GVG.  The difference between 20mg and 23 mg is the difference between "wow" and "WOW!!" and largely explains my reticence at 68 years of age to overdo this molecule orally (Aya) sublingually as here, or through vaporization. Its steep dose-response curve can really rock your world and today was a good example.  Thought I'd be found in my bed dead at one point as the cold and numbness set in.  Had to force myself to breathe and was on the edge of...well, you know...:eek:

EDITOh for Pete's sake!  The OP's original post referencing this process was the one I started on the Nexus!  DUH.  I guess I should have looked first.  Damn!  2012!  I was ahead of my time.  LOL!

Keep us posted on your efforts, Tregar.  If you can pin down a "comfortable dose" I MIGHT be interested in whipping up a batch and self-administering it >>someday<< to corroborate any results you may publish.
  :popcorn:


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Edited by Nature Boy (05/10/21 08:48 AM)


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Re: HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ay... [Re: Nature Boy]
    #27302934 - 05/10/21 01:59 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

FYI: Just so you all know I am not full of hot air, I was the one who introduced HPBCD complexing to 25i-nbome to the bluelight forum back in Jan of 2012, see "the big and dandly 25i-nbome thread, page 25" after that virtually every vendor in the world of the nbome's took my idea and begin marketing them as such.





And where exactly is your post?  Here is page 25.  No mention whatsoever from you or anyone else on that page.

https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/the-big-dandy-25i-nbome-thread.551797/page-25

On the other hand, I had already done this with 25i-NBOME AND bioassayed the results as documented and published in February, 2012 on the nexus, found here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=30071

DIRECT QUOTE:

Hi, all:

I read numerous journal articles and papers on using HPBCD to complex vitamins, steroids, antimetabolites and antibiotics following which I successfully complexed 25i-NBOMe and laid it on blotter at precisely 550 mcg / tab. It was a successful venture and an amazing experience.

It subsequently occurred to me that the only reason MAOI's are needed in conjunction with DMT fumarate or DMT freebase taken ORALLY, is to get around the inhibition in the gut. After all, an MAOI is completely unnecessary when vaporized, administered IV, or even rectally. I then began to consider a sublingual ROI for DMT freebase using HPBCD complexed DMT - and >>NO<< MAOI.

One MAJOR question remains before an attempt can be made. Shockingly few molecules of DMT are probably required for detectable effects. Assuming for the moment that the proposed experiment is a rousing success at introducing DMT into the bloodstream...HOW MUCH COMPLEXED DMT SHOULD CONSTITUTE A FIRST TEST DOSE??? 1 milligram? 10 milligrams??? I have a goodly supply of both materials. I'm scared to try for fear of success without some opinions on a starting dosage attempt, being a conservative psychonaut and a bit of a coward. The complexed DMT would be in ~ 1/2 cc of distilled water.

N.B.


--------------------
All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               


Edited by Nature Boy (05/10/21 07:08 PM)


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