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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Is DMT really in our brains?
    #6765760 -

This was to be posted on a different thread, but it was pretty off topic. I'm leaving the quotes in place anyway.

gopenguins said:
F1234K said:
Yeah dreams are just small amounts of DMT
When your born and when you die or almost die your brain pumps out large amounts, so really everyones been high on DMT when they were born.


Can you back that up with any peer reviewed medical papers? (Yes, I have read strassmans book, never heard him say anything along these lines other than that they were his THEORIES)


It's not completely fair to dismiss this on the basis that there is no quantative, empirical proof of it.

There is a lot of evidence pointing to an endogenous psychedelic. There is, quite clearly, an endogenous psychedelic state. There is also a lot of evidence that consciousness is altered, and perhaps 'steered' by the complex spectrum of neurotransmitters acting on the brain.

There IS proof that the human body has the capability of producing DMT. (A Dimethyltryptamine-Forming Enzyme in Human Blood ) There is also proof that the brain can produce a number of chemicals similar to DMT, like serotonin, or many other common neurotransmitters.

It would seem to make sense, given that mankind has dreams, endogenously produced transcendental states, powerful religious visions, and near death experiences, all of a distinctly psychedelic nature; and given that the body has the capability of making psychedelic chemicals, that there would be some chemical means to this phenomena of consciousness.

All we are missing, really, is an obvious piece of evidence.

I think it's pretty safe to say, at this point, that humans have an endogenous psychedelic compound, similar to, if not actually DMT.

If not, the brain has some complex method (apart from the seemingly simple method of producing and releasing DMT with its already in place system of doing so) of producing psychedelic states with extreme similarity to those experienced on DMT. I think it's much more likely that the brain just produces and uses DMT.

Still an open question though...


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“I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: ReoSpeedwagon153]
    #6765845 -

There is some evidence pointing to DMT excretion during near-death experiences. No one dismissed this fact, but there isn't much proof either.

And DMT being the cause of dreams is incorrect, dreams are not associated with a psychoactive substance but only our brain function.

Most states that a person is able to reach are not influenced by chemical production, but complex brain activity.

Edit:And the similar substance you talking about is serotonin, because DMT effects serotonin receptors. And it does play an important role in our body. It maybe even psychedelic, but the fact that its so natural to our body its not.

Edited by Infested (04/09/07 03:02 PM)

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: Infested]
    #6766221 -

Infested said:
And DMT being the cause of dreams is incorrect, dreams are not associated with a psychoactive substance but only our brain function.


How do you know that exactly? I think both suggestions are just theories and neither can be empirically proven, so it it's mute in that respect.

If dreams were associated with endogenous psychedelic release, that would be a brain function wouldn't it? It's kind of a vague term.


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“I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: Infested]
    #6766471 -

Infested said:
Most states that a person is able to reach are not influenced by chemical production, but complex brain activity.


doublethink?

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: ReoSpeedwagon153]
    #6766569 -

ReoSpeedwagon153 said:
Infested said:
And DMT being the cause of dreams is incorrect, dreams are not associated with a psychoactive substance but only our brain function.


How do you know that exactly? I think both suggestions are just theories and neither can be empirically proven, so it it's mute in that respect.

If dreams were associated with endogenous psychedelic release, that would be a brain function wouldn't it? It's kind of a vague term.



This is how dreams work, it is no theory. Awareness in organisms is a function of the brain. Your sensory organs detect information such as noises odors and flavors in the outside world and send that information to the brain. The brain then takes all this info, puts it together and shows you what is happening in the nearby environment. While awake and active the model accurately reflects your relationship to the external world. If you are not doing anything the input moves from external to internal. Your mind wanders and you day dream. You will be viewing worlds that are not actually in front of you. Now when your asleep same thing happens but so little sensory input is coming from the outside world that you have no conscious model of it and your brain is activated enough to create a world model, also known as a dream. What im trying to say is your brain does the same thing awake as it does when you are asleep its just creating environments off a blank slate rather than using a physical one. Dmt has been proven to be an endogenous chemical but i do not feel we need it to dream. I do believe that it can be released during dreaming but doesn't happen every night in your average dream.


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Edited by DeathCompany (04/09/07 05:10 PM)

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: DeathCompany]
    #6766699 -

DMT is in our brains, but whether or not it causes things like dreams, near-death experiences, and abduction experiences is all speculation. I will say that many descriptions of near death and abduction experiences seem extremely similar to DMT trip reports. If it's not DMT it might be some other similar brain chemical or a different route to the DMT brain state.

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: BrainForest]
    #6766866 -

BrainForest said:
DMT is in our brains


Proof?

I am not disagreeing. My original post in the other thread asking for evidence isnt because I do not believe it to be true...but thats just it - a belief or theory (although there is a difference in the 2).

However, this theory is being touted as truth and plastered all over this forum by people such as yourself, that may have read ONE book on the subject, and now believe it as fact. That is no worse than if I saw one negative paper on MDMA and took it as truth. When talking about scientific things, like what chemicals are produced in the brain, it is imparitive to be able to back up your claims with peer-reviewed medical papers. If DMT exists, atleast in any detectable form, I am sure there must be some documentation out there for it...or I would like to think so, although research on those types of things is scarce.

I would like to see such proof though, just so when I am talking about this to other people, I can say "DMT is in the brain" and back up what I am saying with proof. When you arent talking to other people knowledgeable about substances like DMT, and you say something like that, people tend to look at you like you are full of shit unless you can provide them with some form of evidence other than "because I said so, and he said so, so it must be true"

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: BrainForest]
    #6766884 -

Yes, and to my understanding this is how it all works...Everynight you when you sleep you go through the first 4 phases of sleep wich is were dreaming occurs. Different phases have more intense mind states. Then theres the 5th state witch is compleatly different, your compleatly unconcious and its called REM Sleep. REM sleep is basicly the process of DMT being released through the brain with an electromagnetic impulse that gets you to you sensorium of DMT world. You do it almost every night, so it is not what makes dreaming, if that were dso then dreaming would be just like tripping on DMT. There is also some evidence that a HUGE does of DMT is released during Natural Human Death. I belive it.

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: Benzine]
    #6766916 -

Benzine said:
Yes, and to my understanding this is how it all works...Everynight you when you sleep you go through the first 4 phases of sleep wich is were dreaming occurs. Different phases have more intense mind states. Then theres the 5th state witch is compleatly different, your compleatly unconcious and its called REM Sleep. REM sleep is basicly the process of DMT being released through the brain with an electromagnetic impulse that gets you to you sensorium of DMT world. You do it almost every night, so it is not what makes dreaming, if that were dso then dreaming would be just like tripping on DMT. There is also some evidence that a HUGE does of DMT is released during Natural Human Death. I belive it.



once again this is a theory from the spirit molecule not proof. did u read my post?


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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: Benzine]
    #6766933 -

Benzine said:
Yes, and to my understanding this is how it all works...Everynight you when you sleep you go through the first 4 phases of sleep wich is were dreaming occurs. Different phases have more intense mind states. Then theres the 5th state witch is compleatly different, your compleatly unconcious and its called REM Sleep. REM sleep is basicly the process of DMT being released through the brain with an electromagnetic impulse that gets you to you sensorium of DMT world. You do it almost every night, so it is not what makes dreaming, if that were dso then dreaming would be just like tripping on DMT. There is also some evidence that a HUGE does of DMT is released during Natural Human Death. I belive it.


Dude, you can expect us to believe this without backing it up..

And someone wanted to back up my statement, and i will we already know a lot about sleep and dream, we know its caused by a brain function, corpus collosum and thalamus play an important roll in this. Since they interconnect our brain and control the way it works together. Without any psychoactive chemicals produced..

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: dedjam]
    #6766979 -

"In 1965 a reasearch team from Germany published a paper in the flagship British scrience journal Nature announcing that they had isolated DMT from human blood. In 1972 Nobel-prize winning scientist Julius Axelrod of the US National Institutes of Health reported finding it in human brain tissue. Additional research showed that DMT could also be found in human urine and the cerebrospinal fluid bathing the brain"

-"DMT, The Spirit Molecule"; Riss Strassman. Page 48

He also mentions that DMT can easily cross the blood-brain barrier, but that it is just as easily broken down by MAOs.

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: Benzine]
    #6766984 -

Benzine said:
Yes, and to my understanding this is how it all works...Everynight you when you sleep you go through the first 4 phases of sleep wich is were dreaming occurs. Different phases have more intense mind states. Then theres the 5th state witch is compleatly different, your compleatly unconcious and its called REM Sleep. REM sleep is basicly the process of DMT being released through the brain with an electromagnetic impulse that gets you to you sensorium of DMT world. You do it almost every night, so it is not what makes dreaming, if that were dso then dreaming would be just like tripping on DMT. There is also some evidence that a HUGE does of DMT is released during Natural Human Death. I belive it.


The links in your post must not be working...may want to try to fix that or something. Anyone else having a problem with that? Also, the forum must have its "proof filter" on, and must be autoreplacing with theories again...we need to get that fixed.

Just in case, because people are dense on the internet...
"/sarcasm"

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: KingDavid]
    #6767001 -

KingDavid said:
"In 1965 a reasearch team from Germany published a paper in the flagship British scrience journal Nature announcing that they had isolated DMT from human blood. In 1972 Nobel-prize winning scientist Julius Axelrod of the US National Institutes of Health reported finding it in human brain tissue. Additional research showed that DMT could also be found in human urine and the cerebrospinal fluid bathing the brain"

-"DMT, The Spirit Molecule"; Riss Strassman. Page 48

He also mentions that DMT can easily cross the blood-brain barrier, but that it is just as easily broken down by MAOs.


LOL, try again on your citations. I want to see the studies Strassman got those from, not him talking about a study. That is hearsay, not proof. The book you cited is not only missing a peer-review, but is actually looked down upon by much of the medical community (although I love the book, and obviously it is going to take shit because of the topics he discusses). Its not scientific in the least, but a good book none the less. I am sure if he cites the study he mentions in your quote, then maybe we will be getting somewhere.

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: KingDavid]
    #6767004 -

double post

Edited by gopenguins (04/09/07 07:07 PM)

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: dedjam]
    #6767046 -

he would have much more extensive data if it were a scientific fact
this is popularized myth in action
DMT is nice
all the trypts are nice and same with the rest of the psychotropics,
we do shift mental state into layered and dream like hallucination naturally at different times withoug chemical triggers.
that the triggers do it too will help one day in us understanding what the brain does.
that is if the christian right wing fascists let go of the war on drugs mentality so that scientists can pursue this intelligently.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: dedjam]
    #6767047 -

From what I've read, DMT hasn't ever been found anywhere remotely near threshold dose amounts in the body. There was one peer reviewed article that stated the various average amounts of n,n and 5-ho-dmt found in various locations. The highest concentration, if I recall, was around the microgram per kilogram range, and that was in stool.

I have no issues with people discussing fun little theories about natural DMT trips. It would be very cool if it were real. I just wish more people would represent the theories as theories rather than fact. Because each person who reads it falls in love with the idea and goes on further to represent it as fact.

Strassman's book was essentially a waste of time, in my opinion. It did show the awesome power of the drug, which basically left him baffled, acquiring no real scientific data in the end. It was the first psychedelic study allowed in the US in a very long time. This should be a good thing, right? Well, wouldn't it have been nice for the first such study to accomplish something? To make some ground to help future studies get the permission they need? Instead it accomplished absolutely nothing with the research aside from a cool book with an alex grey cover that "druggies" like to buy. (Not how I see it with my own eyes, but we're talking about the future of funding and permitting such studies, and we all know how popular shulgin's books were with the feds).

I just think it's a shame that nothing was really accomplished. But, what do you expect with smoked (injected, really, in this case) dmt? Not really the best place to start with therapy, cluster headaches, or anything else. Is it interesting that it can produce what seems like a near death experience? Abso-fucking-lutely. Can the subjective effects ever be proven to mean something substantial by scientific experimentation? If they can, Strassman had no idea how to do it, and he really didn't have much of a road plan.

It was great reading about the struggle to get all the permission and the DMT itself. But such a struggle should have produced something of interest, and the "first psychedelic study in x0 years" should have been a scientific triumph.


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You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: dedjam]
    #6767051 -

http://deoxy.org/annex/daytripr.htm

Try that one, maybe?

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: KingDavid]
    #6767059 -

Yes, there is scientific data that confirms n,n-dmt in various parts of the human body. There's a huge leap between that and proving psychoactive levels, considering the extremely low levels that have been found.

I wish I could find the study with all the different body parts and the levels for them. It was all posted right in the abstract. I'm sure someone around here knows what it is and can help.

At the microgram per kilogram of stool level, you'd need 25,000 kilos of poop to extract a small dose. Most of the levels were far, far below that though.


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You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6767102 -

http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/content/vtl36335n8708p67/

"Bufotenine and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) are hallucinogenic dimethylated indolethylamines (DMIAs) formed from serotonin and tryptamine by the enzyme indolethylamine N-methyltransferase (INMT) ubiquitously present in non-neural tissues. In mammals, endogenous bufotenine and DMT have been identified only in human urine. The DMIAs bind effectively to 5HT receptors and their administration causes a variety of autonomic effects, which may reflect their actual physiological function. Endogenous levels of bufotenine and DMT in blood and a number of animal and human tissues were determined using highly sensitive and specific quantitative mass spectrometric techniques. A new finding was the detection of large amounts of bufotenine in stools, which may be an indication of its role in intestinal function. It is suggested that fecal and urinary bufotenine originate from epithelial cells of the intestine and the kidney, respectively, although the possibility of their synthesis by intestinal bacteria cannot be excluded. Only small amounts of the DMIAs were found in somatic or neural tissues and none in blood. This can be explained by rapid catabolism of the DMIAs by mitochondrial monoamino-oxidase or by the fact that the dimethylated products of serotonin and tryptamine are not formed in significant amounts in most mammalian tissues despite the widespread presence of INMT in tissues."


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You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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Re: Is DMT really in our brains? [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6767151 -

Koala Koolio said:
I have no issues with people discussing fun little theories about natural DMT trips. It would be very cool if it were real. I just wish more people would represent the theories as theories rather than fact. Because each person who reads it falls in love with the idea and goes on further to represent it as fact


my exact feelings

I think joe rogans little radio thing convinces people that these theory's are facts as well.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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