TrancedOutBrah said:

I still need to quit Kratom before I can safely take a MAOI.

---

nektar61 said:

TrancedOutBrah said:

I still need to quit Kratom before I can safely take a MAOI.

---

Why? Are they counter-indicated?

---

Quote:

Cyclodextrins at high doses can increase drug permeability by direct action on mucosal membranes and enhance drug absorption and/or bioavailability. These effects are possibly caused by solubilisation of membrane lipids through inclusion complexation with cyclodextrins and the ability of cyclodextrins to cause perturbation of membrane integrity. However, unlike detergents, cyclodextrins solubilize membrane components without entering into the membrane, therefore the perturbing effects of cyclodextrins are mild and reversible [7].Cyclodextrins are absorbed poorly via mucosal membranes.

---

Quote:

The oral bioavailability of cyclodextrins is very low in adult animals and humans (0.1–3%), except for RM-β-CD, which has a bioavailability of 12% in rats. Because of their bulky and hydrophilic nature only insignificant amounts of cyclodextrins are absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract by passive diffusion [33, 27].

---

Quote:

According to the data in section 2 one can conclude that below 20 mg/kg/day no serious adverse effects are to be expected for all routes of administration and no statement is deemed necessary.

Above 20 mg/kg/day, cyclodextrins may show some activity, and because there are insufficient safety data in children below two years old, it is advisable to inform about the quantity of cyclodextrin in the product and that for use in children below two years old, a doctor’s recommendation is needed.

Above 200 mg/kg/day cyclodextrins may theoretically cause problems in the digestive system when given orally, and cause mild renal toxicity when given parenteral, which information can be given. Depending on the amount, cyclodextrins may influence the Cyclodextrins used as excipients permeability of tissues and therefore the bioavailability of active substances given topically (nasal, rectal, dermal, ocular).

---

This is exactly the way I use the HPBCD sublingually, when I complex 90mg DMT to (x7) or 630mg of HPBCD, and I re-dose two more times every 1.5 hour, I am using 1890mg of HPBCD for the evening. I weigh 95kg, so I am using less than 20mg/kg/day or less than 1900mg per day. This always gives me a 4.5 hour long +5 Shulgin level strength experience with super-long afterglow. Very similar to 600mg of mescaline.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read lots of questions concerning tetrahydroharmine or THH, so will add this in closing:

As a long time chemist, have years of experience with home-made pure THH, it does not convert back to harmaline, and I've had THH remain 100% stable for many years in a closet, that still glowed pale blue under blacklight, and worked just as well as the day it was made.

See post #12 of this thread for how to make it yourself with pictures in 1.5 hour using harmaline which you can often find on-line if don't want to start from scratch. All you need is a cheap stir mantel from *mazon, vinegar, 10% janitorial ammonia from hardware store, zinc dust, cotton ball in a funnel. I always encourage everyone to learn chemistry.

The liftmode THH paperwork indicates it is made in China, if it truly is over 99% pure, then by all means it should only glow pale blue. Any green in the glow means it has un-converted harmaline, how much is anyone's guess. Harmaline is sedating and causes nausea and dizziness at high doses.

pic 1: 300mg of pure THH for oral use taken 45 minutes before, not shown: 35mg of freebase harmine for sublingual use taken at exact same time under tongue as the 0.5ml (10 drop) 90mg DMT complexed to 630mg HPBCD stored in a 3ml syringe if desired.

Pic 2: Pure tetrahydroharmine glows pale blue under blacklight like LSD or psilocin, harmaline reduces to tetrahydroharmine by gaining a hydrogen atom. Tetrahydroharmine is in the same beta-carboline family as ibogaine, remarkable way beyond 4k monochrome (blue or green for me) closed eye teaching visions at 300mg for hours. No sedation, pleasant stimulation. Adding even small amounts of sublingual or oral HPBCD DMT adds color to the visions.

Quote:

I tried the sublingual 2HPBCD / DMT combination last night (60mg n,n + 480mg 2HPBCD), along with 175mg oral Liftmode brand 'THH' and 25mg sublingual harmine. (I'm 150lbs, so I dropped the harmine dosage from Ava's recommended 35mg.)

I was very sensitive to the burn - it was almost intolerable and I will not be retrying this ROA. And it is still annoying the next day under my tongue.

I did it twice last night as the first time it did not work as I probably did not complex the mixture properly and also did not get the mixture off the spoon very well. So after an hour, I mixed a second batch, using the same amounts of 2HPBCD, dmt, and harmine. (I did not mix the harmine in, just placed it under my tongue for a minute before inserting the complexed mixture.)

The second batch of dmt DID work Very happy After about 10 minutes it started to come on, and it quickly became very strong with a few-minute rush, similar to a decent vaped dose.

However, it wore off about 10-15 minutes after it started.

I did not notice anything extra from the alleged THH. And I did not notice any lengthening of the experience from either the harmine nor the THH.

Before giving up on this liftmode THH, I'll try it again and up the dose to closer to 300mg in hopes that there is at least *some* THH in there. And I will use the oral method of complexing the dmt then melting it into hot water to drink along with the THH and maybe ~170mg harmine. Alternatively, I may try complexing the harmine and using it sublingually, upping the dose to 35mg.

---

Quote:

Cyclodextrins can be used to reduce or prevent gastrointestinal and ocular irritation, reduce or eliminate unpleasant smells or tastes.

The oral bioavailability of cyclodextrins is very low in adult animals and humans (0.1–3%), except for RM-β-CD, which has a bioavailability of 12% in rats. Because of their bulky and hydrophilic nature only insignificant amounts of cyclodextrins are absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract by passive diffusion [33, 27].

---

Quote:

Thus, tetrahydroharmine may prolong the half-life of DMT by blocking it's intraneuronal uptake, and hence, its inactivation by MAO, localized in mitochondria within the neuron.

---

Quote:

Tetrahydroharmine (THH) has the ability to raise your vibration in a most powerful, yet subtle way. It brings a crystalline prismy texture to spice and adds a super clear watery dimension to Aya, like looking down through 10meters of shimmering Caribbean Sea on clear blue day. It brings a dimension of pure light to the entheogenic experience and encourages entities & intelligences of only the Highest Order. If one is not accustomed to perceiving these experiences with a spiritual perspective most of the nuances & subtleties THH brings on are overlooked and remain unseen and one would better enjoy Harmaline as a house painter chooses a roller over a brush, its about preference & choice.

---

Quote:

As to how the THH altered the experience -> I find rue extract+DMT to be very similar to mushrooms. I found the THH added to the rue+DMT to shift the experience to a state much closer to that provided by LSD. It was more clear, more energetic, more focused, and when confusion struck it was definitely more "acid-like".

---

Quote:

The vine carries the content of the message, the teaching, and the insight. The purpose of drinking Ayahuasca is to receive the message the vine imparts.

---

Quote:

For many people, Ayahuasca-a slowed-down low-res interface of the DMT flash-seems to convey strong messages from the natural world, of nature as sentient energy and spirit matter, of the need to protect the planet we have been given.

Yage whispers that human beings are meant to be gardeners of this reality, journeyers, storytellers and singers, weavers of the sacred. DMT, on the other hand, conveys no overt human or humane message.

---

Quote:

My experience with smoked DMT was qualitatively different from the realms and beings Ayahuasca introduced me to. For whereas the Ayahuasca worlds seemed rich, luxurious, and abundant in the transformations of organic and supernatural life, DMT brought me to a world--or to some aspect of a world--that appeared from the outset to be highly artificial, constructed, inorganic, and in essence technological.

---

Quote:

In the western world, Ayahuasca acquired a new definition: It was now, by definition, the combination of Banisteriopsis caapi and a DMT-containing plant. Ayahuasca became, by definition “orally active DMT.” The first anthropologist to adopt the new definition seems to have been Luis Eduardo Luna in 1984. Luna spent time with Terence McKenna, absorbing his perspective, before beginning his fieldwork. Since then, anthropologists have increasingly adopted this definition and filtered their observations through it. The preeminence of the Ayahuasca vine in the indigenous Amazonian world became the elephant in the living room of Ayahuasca studies, with a tacit agreement to pretend it doesn’t exist.

The leaves were Ayahuasca’s “helpers,” I was told, and their purpose was to “brighten and clarify” the visions. The vine is like a cave, and the leaf is like a torch you use to see what is inside the cave. The vine is like a book, and the leaf is like the candle you use to read the book.

The vine is like a snowy television set, and the leaf helps to tune in the picture. There was a subtle attitude that the need for strong leaf was the sign of a beginner: An experienced ayahuasquero could see the visions even in low light.

Ayahuasca vine is not visionary in the same way as DMT. Visions from vine-only brewsare shadowy, monochromatic, like silhouettes, or curling smoke, or clouds moving across the night sky. It is because their visions are usually monochromatic that vines are classified by the color of vision they produce: white, black, blue, red (in my experience, dark maroon).

Snakes, the most common vision on Ayahuasca, are considered the manifest spirit of the vine. Vine visions can be hard to see; in fact, the “visions” may not be visual at all, but auditory or somatic or intuitive. But the vine carries the content of the message, the teaching, and the insight.

The leaf helps illuminate the content, but the teachings are credited to the vine. Vine visions are “frequently associated with writing, to a code that is present in visions…or in the ‘books’ where the spirits keep the secrets of the forest.” (Calavia Saez 2011:135).

The vine is The Teacher, The Healer, The Guide. The purpose of drinking Ayahuasca is to receive the message the vine imparts. This is why it is the vine, not the leaf, that is classified by the type of vision it gives. “For them the vine is, in truth, a living guide, a friend, a paternal authority” (Weiskopf 2005:104).

Listening to the Vine:
While I was living in the village, someone began the process of shamanic apprenticeship. There was a series of ceremonies with brews of special strength for that purpose; brews with enormous quantities of vine. About two to three pounds of fresh vine per person was used (about 25 to 35 times the amount needed for MAOI inhibition). Those were powerful experiences indeed.

Although the apprenticeship began with crushingly vine-heavy brews, the more the apprentice progressed, the weaker the brew he would need. He would learn to see the dimmest of visions. If he spent a full two years “fasting,” then eventually even smelling or tasting the brew, even touching an Ayahuasca plant, would be enough to visit her realms. On the other hand, he would learn to navigate the strongest of brews with clear focus, and be undistracted by any amount of DMT fireworks.

---

Quote:

A traditional saying among Ayahuasqueros is that the jungle vine brings powerful realistic visions, but that the chacruna brings light to these visions. According to the view of Western research, this is not the case; essentially the entire psycho-activity resides with the chacruna leaves DMT content.

Ayahuasca researcher Luis Eduardo Luna recently observed that when surveying tribal lore praising the jungle vine, he could find no traces of similar mythology around the two most common plant admixtures; psychotria viridis or diplpterys cabrerana, even though these DMT plants to a Westerner would appear much more important than the harmala alkaloids of the B. caapi liana.

---

Quote:

Thus, tetrahydroharmine may prolong the half-life of DMT by blocking it's intraneuronal uptake, and hence, its inactivation by MAO, localized in mitochondria within the neuron.

---

Quote:

You can't compare sublingual or oral either..20-30mg sublingual harmine is enough to activate sublingual DMT and cause effects on it's own. 20mg sublingual is probably comparable to 200mg oral.

---

Quote:

The absorption of drugs through the sublingual route is 3 to 10 times greater than oral route and is surpassed by hypodermic injection. Sublingual mucosa under tongue is only 100 to 200 microns thick.

---

Quote:

Cyclodextrins at high doses can increase drug permeability by direct action on mucosal membranes and enhance drug absorption and/or bioavailability. These effects are possibly caused by solubilisation of membrane lipids through inclusion complexation with cyclodextrins and the ability of cyclodextrins to cause perturbation of membrane integrity. However, unlike detergents, cyclodextrins solubilize membrane components without entering into the membrane, therefore the perturbing effects of cyclodextrins are mild and reversible [7].Cyclodextrins are absorbed poorly via mucosal membranes.

---

HPBCD enhances the drug permeability of guest complexed drug, but the cyclodextrins themselves are poorly absorbed via the sublingual mucosa.

Pic 1: use a 1:1 molar ratio HPBCD to DMT

Pic 2: How to mix the DMT, HPBCD, and drops of very hot water on a spoon & chart of DMT strength.

Pic 3 left: 300mg pure THH for oral use in weigher, 35mg harmine fb for sublingual use next to it, 60mg dmt fb in spoon, 420mg HPBCD white powder above it, coffee mug of near boiling hot water, medicine dropper pipette, Bic lighter.

Pic 3 right: 60mg DMT was covered with x 7 or 420mg HPBCD powder and 10 drops of near boiling hot water from a nearby coffee mug was added, and all mashed and stirred well for 2 minutes, then Bic lighter held under spoon until the solution just started to boil (20 seconds or so), then pull flame away, notice how well the DMT complexed inside the HPBCD. Mix a few more seconds before using.

pic 4: 300mg of pure THH for oral use taken 45 minutes before, not shown: 35mg of freebase harmine for sublingual use taken at exact same time under tongue as the 0.5ml (10 drop) 90mg DMT complexed to 630mg HPBCD stored in a 3ml syringe if desired. Locking syringe caps prevent spillage.

Two re-dose syringes at the 1.5 hour point can be "back-filled" by removing plunger & pouring spoon's HPBCD complexed DMT solution down the syringe. Schematic showing sublingual mucosa only 100 to 200 microns thick.

Pic 5: Pure tetrahydroharmine glows pale blue under blacklight like LSD or psilocin, harmaline reduces to tetrahydroharmine by gaining a hydrogen atom. Tetrahydroharmine is in the same beta-carboline family as ibogaine, remarkable way beyond 4k monochrome (blue or green for me) closed eye teaching visions at 300mg for hours. No sedation, pleasant stimulation like mescaline. Adding even small amounts of sublingual or oral HPBCD DMT adds color to the visions.

Quote:

Instead of the harmine sublingual, have you tried orally ingested harmine, maybe at the same time as THH, 45 minutes before the sublingual HPBCD-complexed DMT?

---

Quote:

Making this thread so that I can post my thoughts on the dosing method described in this thread
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861
hxxps://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96861
My few experiences have consisted of about 60 mg of freebase DMT dissolved in 500 mg of HPBCD, with 250-300 mg of THH, and about 35 mg of sublingual harmala/harmaline

From the start I want to say that sublingual DMT with oral THH is everything I wanted ayahuasca/pharmahuasca to be. And I think it is also the best way for someone to be introduced to DMT
Where do I start with the pros
- no nausea at all, even if you take sublingual harmine/harmaline with it. It is such an odd and pleasant feeling to not have to fight constant nausea and vomit inducing dizziness. I literally don't have to worry about having a handy throwup bucket like I did with typical oral DMT.
- just the right kind of duration, it never overstays it's welcome, in about an hour you will get whatever you had to receive. No need for a bedridden 2+ h long comedown
- crisp, clear headspace. Previous oral DMT experiences have always given me this pinch of delirium and sleepiness to my mental state. But with this combo and I am fully present in it
- no come-up anxiety, the transition is gradual and smooth
- the DMT visuals are there, and in one experience they seemed even more glowing, or with actual real-life landscapes or persons assembling before my vision instead of the usual DMT geometry
- your body will love to move to the music you are listening
- let's say you accidental swallow the DMT solution or the saliva build-up becomes unbearable - you will still have a pharmahuasca experience with less if not any nausea. And also this form of oral DMT seems to absorb way better than a typical pharmahuasca
- you need less DMT than the typical pharmahuasca
- if you aborted the experience (saliva build-up that you spit out) you will now in about 25-30 minutes for sure, and then you can try again with the same DMT dosage, it won't stack like in pharmahuasca where it can sometimes take even 2 hours to enter fully

Now the cons:
- the saliva build-up can abort your start or break it's knees. Now if you swallow the solution you will still get a top-tier pharmahuasca trip, I repeat again, with barely any nausea. I tried with some cotton rolls in my mouth to stop the saliva pooling around the DMT solution but it was useless. Next thing I want to try are some saliva pads dentists use: either I trap the solution between the pad and the mouth floor, or I infuse the pads with the DMT solution, put the pad to the cheek mucosa or sublingual mucosa, and enjoy the slow release of DMT (even your lips can absorb this stuff pretty well, one of these days I will use the solution as ointment only for the lips to test it)
- and that is pretty much it, I can't think of any other cons of this way of taking DMT

With that in mind here are some questions that could be explored in the future
- how to get consistently the neon-glowing visions, they feel like such an eye-candy that your eyes feel compelled to see in all their beauty; is it a certain THH treshhold? less harmine/harmaline or more sublingual harmine/harmaline?
- do we really need the mouth floor? can I just smear this on my lips, inner cheek, upper gums or mouth top since with these there is not saliva problem?

I still can't believe people aren't all over this method, especially beginners. It is so versatile and maybe even "comfortable". It is worth experimenting only on it for me, goodbye throw bucket and tissues next to my bed, goodbye retching and holding in the taste of earthy vomit, goodbye 5 hour long sedation and diziness that takes up your entire day.
I predict in a short time sublingual DMT will have it's separate section on the Nexus.

---