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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
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being careful about beliefs...
    #2396699 - 03/03/04 12:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

and how you judge others because of them.

a belief is the confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof. 

even this defintion from the dictionary has it's flaws, because what is the method used for this proof? and how much confidence is needed?

This was inspried by a conversation with a friend of mine, and he told me he didn't believe in anything and neither should anyone else.  this statement alone is a belief and I said this to him. he was bashing mainly christians and muslims, he said this this this and that, therefore this. but even more so, because he didn't agree with their views, he got mad about i, or maybe even frustrated.

I ask, isnt it still all based on the fact that we believe that our mind can find truth? isn't it all just really confidence?  Often times on this board too I see people calling others "dumb" "in the dark" or even "insane" :wink:  for their thoughts..

brothers and sisters let's come together and realize we barley get anywhere in these types of arguements, because it's really only one belief being argued against another. 

where is the source of truth?  where in our everday lives do we see truth? let's start from here, instead of back there :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineFrog
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: kaiowas]
    #2396726 - 03/03/04 01:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes. I agree. I have slowed down posting here because it seems that people are having fun bashing Christians for their "insane" beliefs.

I don't mind if people want to have a discussion, but I do mind being bashed. There's a difference between having a discussion about one's beliefs and bashing one for his/her beliefs.

What does it matter whose belief is true and whose isn't? I wouldn't presume to tell someone else that their belief is wrong. I merely state what I believe and why I believe what I believe.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineShroomerious
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Registered: 07/27/03
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Frog]
    #2396802 - 03/03/04 01:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What does it matter whose belief is true and whose isn't?




It matters, if we are ever to reach a universal truth. Some people seek that. Then again, some people don't.

Quote:

I wouldn't presume to tell someone else that their belief is wrong. I merely state what I believe and why I believe what I believe.




How can you fully believe what you believe and no tell other people that their belief is wrong? If it is from kind heart then ok but you see if everyone did the same, evolution in the subject would still be 2000 years ago...(or even more, who knows...?)


--------------------


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OfflineFrog
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Shroomerious]
    #2396820 - 03/03/04 02:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

As I said, it's how discussion on the beliefs is held.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Frog]
    #2396873 - 03/03/04 02:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who's beliefs are based only on things like the bible, the koran, other religious texts and not on logic and critical thinking. I'm not saying belief in these texts discludes critical thinking, but often religious people will fall back on them as a last resort in a discussion when they have nothing else to offer and it ruins the debate for obvious reasons.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: bert]
    #2396897 - 03/03/04 03:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

In other words, when all else fails, make fun of Christians and belittle their beliefs. Okay. Fine.

I will be honest here. When I join a forum, I join it heart and soul, and I feel as if everyone is my friend. When people start making fun of what I believe in, I no longer feel welcome.

It's not a big deal. My understanding is that people here have been making fun of Christians long before I joined. I don't plan to change things. I thought this was a "spirituality and philosophy" forum. It should read "spirituality (but not the Christian kind) and philosophy".


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Frog]
    #2396917 - 03/03/04 03:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know where you got that from out of my post...Anywho, I haven't been following S&P that much lately so I don't know, maybe you have a legitimate gripe. I'm just saying there are logistical problems in a religious discussion. Because it boils down to whether you believe or don't. It's not really even a discussion because you can't arrive at a justifiable conclusion on either side about the issue. Philosophy is a much better forum for discussing universal truths, in my humble opinion.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: bert]
    #2396978 - 03/03/04 03:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Discussing religion is like discussing politics or abortion. Each side has a point of view. Why not just share your POV, nicely, and move on? Why do people feel that they have to convince others that they're wrong? And if we can't do that, let's make fun of them!

I'm still trying to figure out why people do that. I have come down to a couple of conclusions. People are feeling guilty for not believing, so they feel angry. Or people are insecure, so they feel angry.

My posts aren't solely directed at you, btw. I'm just sort of posting in general.

Actually, I went and joined another internet forum yesterday because I'm bothered by people making fun of Christians and their beliefs. I suppose if I were that type of person, I could make fun of people for their beliefs, but I don't, because I have respect for people's beliefs.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Frog]
    #2397005 - 03/03/04 03:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What if someone believes that they are free to kill everyone they want because God told them to do it?

Some beliefs can be harmful. A lot of people "bash" Christianity because of its history. The whole institution is designed on controlling people. Some people "bypass" this by going straight to the Bible, but it has been in the hands of those same people for thousands of years.....

I'm not saying that some good can't come out of Christianity.. but some good can come out of being bitten by a snake as well. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2397012 - 03/03/04 03:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I can see someone talking about how that ONE person is wrong for using his Christian beliefs for doing what he's doing, but not bashing ALL Christians, in general. Not all Christians hold the same beliefs.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Frog]
    #2397038 - 03/03/04 03:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Oh, I didn't refer to that person as being Christian. :wink:

Not all Christians hold the same beliefs, but it all comes from the same source... all I'm saying is that it is a good possibillity the well is poisoned! hehe. After all, this is about being careful about beliefs... :grin:

Shit, gotta, go, my day has started.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblesakura
Aussie Expat

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Japan
Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: kaiowas]
    #2397458 - 03/03/04 09:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Religious 'proof' is largely subjective (and rightly so...  wouldn't be much room for faith otherwise would there).

I try to look at things logically.  I realised some years ago that Atheism is also a faith (and requires a lot more faith than most forms of theism if you start looking at the mathamatics...). 

I came to the conclusion that there must be some sort of Entity behind the wheel, so to speak, and decided to have a good look at what was 'out there'.

My personal feeling (call it an 'educated guess') is that while there are elements of Truth in most religious beliefs, the Christian theology (NOT the 'Christian' doctrine of church ABC...) has a little more than most...

I do not take all of it literally...  (especially large parts of the Old Testament), but I do feel that all of it is instructional and of value. 

If you pressed me, I would have to say that I am a Christian by default... (I just can't believe that all of this is a cosmic accident no matter how hard I try).  Christianity happens to be the only religion which will work with my personal feelings and ideas (inspirations???) of who God is.

It would be an awfully long post if I tried to explain all the reasons why I can believe in a 'form' (man I need some italics here) of Christianity, but not, say, Buddhism... 

It is basically a legal issue.  In a manner of speaking, God is Order and Sin is Chaos. The two cannot co-exist in an Eternal Universe.  Christianity has provided me with the best workable scenario by which a 'Pure' God might allow exposure to 'Sin' for a specific purpose (choice) within a contained structure (The 'Time/Space universe).

I am not a fundamentalist, however, I am a believer.  I have no mandate on 'Truth' and would never dream of telling you that you're wrong (even if you are :smile: )

The purpose of all this waffling is simply to point out that a lot of 'Believers' think through the issues as carefully as their intellects will allow them  (I am not one of the 'Giants' in this area...). 

We are all 'Believers' (whether you believe in the 'Cosmic Accident' or the 'Cosmic Purpose').


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


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OfflineRenegade8
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Registered: 10/11/03
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Frog]
    #2397564 - 03/03/04 10:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
I wouldn't presume to tell someone else that their belief is wrong. I merely state what I believe and why I believe what I believe.




I distinctly remember being told I'm going to Hell no matter how good a person I am and that I should accept Jesus as my savior. Doesn't that constitute telling me my belief is wrong?

I also haven't seen the "bashing," but it's been my experience that believers who get questioned logically & run out of answers get defensive & feel attacked. Shouldn't us non-believers be the ones feeling bashed when you're telling us we're going to Hell for eternal torment based on some ancient book that one religion views as gospel? My beliefs aren't valid 'cause "the Bible says so," but question the Bible's logic and suddenly I'm Christian-bashing.

If you're not comfortable defending your beliefs on the S & P board, where everyone's pretty laid-back, good luck on your new Internet forum. The only way you'll avoid being questioned is to join a Christian-only board.

BTW - Does that mean I don't get an answer on the Christianity + reincarnation question? I really wanted to hear how your guru reconciles that one.


--------------------
I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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Invisiblesakura
Aussie Expat

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Renegade8]
    #2397667 - 03/03/04 10:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)






Does that mean I don't get an answer on the Christianity + reincarnation question?  I really wanted to hear how your guru reconciles that one.




Easy...  He must be Jesus!  :smile:

(Always said He'd be back, didn't He?)


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Frog]
    #2397677 - 03/03/04 10:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Not all Christians hold the same beliefs.




How do you know if you are a true Christian then?

Isn't that similar to

Quote:

Not all triangles have three sides.




--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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OfflineRenegade8
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: sakura]
    #2397725 - 03/03/04 11:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

sakura said:
Easy...  He must be Jesus!  :smile:

(Always said He'd be back, didn't He?)




:lol:


--------------------
I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Renegade8]
    #2397823 - 03/03/04 12:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I personally feel attacked when I'm told that I was "born a sinner" and that I must repent and "receive Jesus" to get into heaven.
I don't mind christians trying to spread the word, but telling people that they'll burn in hell probably isn't the best way to go about it.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Frog]
    #2400069 - 03/03/04 09:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Why do people feel that they have to convince others that they're wrong?




Because of passion to what they belive in and true will to find this one truth allthough some people are not interested in that.

Quote:

As I said, it's how discussion on the beliefs is held.





Certainly NOT.No, this is how one can lose his/her time being in the same place she/he started. If one wants just a numb chit chat(excuse my spelling) that's ok. Other people don't want that.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: Frog]
    #2400270 - 03/03/04 10:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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OfflineFrog
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Re: being careful about beliefs... [Re: ]
    #2400663 - 03/04/04 12:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks, MM. That was kind of you. And I agree, in general, with your statements.

I don't need to join a "Christians Only" forum. Just a forum where people's beliefs can be respected. I am starting to think that maybe that's not possible, on the internet. People say, on an internet forum, what they wouldn't say to someone's face, in public. People are protected by the computer screen from where they post.

And anyways, if someone showed disrespect for my beliefs, in public, and made fun of me for things I said about my beliefs, I would not associate with that person. There would be no point.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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