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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Swami Sheds a Tear
    #2101175 -

I thought I could leave the Shroomery in good hands. I do not care if one agrees with my viewpoints or not. However, I came to demonstrate the basic tenets of logical debate. In just a few days of posting, I have encountered at least 18 major logical fallacies.

Seems I have failed as a teacher as nothing has changed. This place reeks of emotionalism and irrationality which have no place in philosophy.

It is time to elect a new Swami...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101184 -

Your'e Not gonna leave us again, Are you?


We as humans should not be emotional, I agree. :crazy: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Edited by sirreal (11/13/03 10:31 AM)

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101206 -

"Swami Sheds a Tear"... so emotionalism makes you sad?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101221 -

We were all corrupted when we left Vulcan don't you know?
As displayed by your post no one is immune from emotionalism...even the Swami/Sclorch/Spock group
WR:rasta:


--------------------
To old for this place

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Evolving]
    #2101229 -

"Swami Sheds a Tear"... so emotionalism makes you sad?

Very clever! You win the grand prize - a 1973 Gremlin. I was hoping you would let one of the neophytes uncover this fallacy. :smile:
 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101247 -

How is logic not as flawed as emotions?


Logic is often "mis-used" to confuse others, proove people's OWN beliefs, etc.

In order to get ANYWHERE in Truthfulness, you need both Logic AND creativity. Equal portions of both.

Albert Einstein wasn't kidding when he stated his famous quote "Imagination is more important that Knowledge". Certainly, your imaginative brain is left in the dark when you try to use conventional science to explain theories and whatnot - that have no purpose in our world.




Any form of understanding or Truth is based on completed systems, not systems of science that lead no where. Physics, Numbers, etc - these forms of logically thinking lead you nowhere in the spiritual realm, they only help you reach material gain.


True sciences - like a true form of religion, meditation, yoga, sacred geometry - and the thousands of more completed systems, are based on logic AND creativity.

Edited by tekramrepus (11/13/03 10:48 AM)

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2101274 -

How is logic not as flawed as emotions?
Please explain how logic is flawed in the arenas where it should be used.

Logic is often "mis-used" to confuse others, proove people's OWN beliefs, etc.
If that is true, then it is not logic that is being misused, but rhetoric.

In order to get ANYWHERE in Truthfulness, you need both Logic AND creativity. Equal portions of both.

Albert Einstein wasn't kidding when he stated his famous quote "Imagination is more important that Knowledge".

Editor's note: See how the poster has clevery transmorgified emotionalism into creativity and imagination?

Any form of understanding or Truth is based on completed systems, not systems of science that lead no where. Physics, Numbers, etc - these forms of logically thinking lead you nowhere in the spiritual realm, they only help you reach material gain.
ONLY MATERIAL GAIN. So what you want is something that gives you ONLY SPIRITUAL GAIN (whatever that undefined something is!).

Editor's note: See how the term ONLY appeals to emotionalism and nothing factual? "This car sells for ONLY $19,9995..."


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101487 -

poor SWAMI.

desperately searching for rationality in a fundamentally irrational universe.

actually thats pretty funny.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2101535 -

desperately searching for rationality in a fundamentally irrational universe.

Desperately searching for reading comprehension and literacy.

1. I don't believe the universe is "fundamentally" irrational.

2. Exploration of unknown or unknowable topics can still follow rules of rational discussion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101578 -

What if we are to believe Quantum mechanics, and all of it's logical mayhem.


I actually don't think that. I think logic prevails wherever it can.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101590 -

Quote:
I don't believe the universe is "fundamentally" irrational.



I know, thats what I find so hilarious.

Can you offer me any proof of this belief of yours?

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2101666 -

No more than you can "prove" your hypothesis. However, there are many things today that are explainable that were seemingly inexplicable hundreds of years ago. The more we learn of how things work, the more "rational" things seem (quantum physics notwithstanding).


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101692 -

Swami said:
...I came to demonstrate the basic tenets of logical debate...

Seems I have failed as a teacher as nothing has changed.


*wipes a tear from poor Swami's eye*

Now, now Swami ... its ok. Sometimes the 'teacher' becomes the 'student'.

We are all students and teachers in this mysterious multiverse we live in.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101716 -

Quote:
No more than you can "prove" your hypothesis.


indeed.  This kind of reminds me of the whole athiesm/theism debate.  I love how neither position is logically defensible, which means the only logical position is agnosticism.  Which is basically like saying that the only rational state of mind is confusion.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2101759 -

ag?nos?ti?cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-nst-szm)
n.
The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.

i dont think that equates "confusion", exactly.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: ]
    #2101773 -

well, if you ask an agnostic whether or not there is a God, his ultimate answer will be : "I don't know."

I think that does equate confusion, at least in a general sense.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2101784 -

by definition they would tell you..

absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.

not 'i don't know.' but most agnostics would say they don't know, and they'd be quite certain of it. so thus little confusion... i think.

or they might tell you its impossible to know if god exists. once again, they'd be quite certain. but ignorant. so i think its more an acceptance of ignorance than a state of confusion.

sorry to derail the thread.. ;x

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: ]
    #2101889 -

Quote:
not 'i don't know.' but most agnostics would say they don't know, and they'd be quite certain of it. so thus little confusion... i think.



"I'm quite sure that I'm not quite sure about anything."
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2101907 -

wouldn't everyone have to be considered agnostic since nobody knows whether god exists or not? Sure, you have your beliefs, but your never sure.

Oh by the way, try this one on for size swami.

I am a man.
All men are mortal.
Therefore, I am not mortal.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2101921 -

Don't wimp out on us now. This forum needs someone to act as the voice of reason and logic, otherwise it spins into chaos and is overtaken by superstitious people with tin-foil hats. You are the Yin to their Yang(or is it the other way around? I get those two confused sometimes). You help maintain a delicate balance in this forum.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2101968 -

i think you meant

I am a man.
All men are mortal.
Therefore, I am mortal.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: ]
    #2102046 -

I done it wrong on purpose. It's supposed to make Swami shed more tears.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2102076 -

One small tear for SpecialEd;

One giant tear for the shroomery.  :nut: 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2102082 -

You nearly always post my Dutch answer translated in correct English and well formulated. You are just an evolved translator of me(for the rational part). Thanks!  :smirk: :wink:

Ok... I just agree with you most of the time and I've learned a lot from you!.... 

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2102088 -

ok buddy, see you whenever. that's what happens with expectations huh??


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: kaiowas]
    #2102124 -

hehe all you crazy collectors of data, when will you all sit down and stop collecting? were building a trash heap here.

*note* the above statement didn't mean this thread was a trash heap.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2102277 -

How 'bout this one:

Farmers are hard-working people
My parents are hard-working people
Therefore my parents are farmers.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: silversoul7]
    #2102305 -

I got one,

Since I am telling the truth that Swami is illogical, He must be illogical.

There, it's right there swami, you're the one whose illogical.

One great big tear for swami


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2102323 -

Farmers are hard-working people
My parents are hard-working people
Therefore my parents are farmers.

:grin: how logical :wink:

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Annom]
    #2102331 -

When I am on the shroomery, i am on the computer
Therefore
When I am on the computer, I am on the shroomery


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2102379 -

Although you and me may not have quite a rapport built up, you may be surprised to know that I do find your uber-vulcan-intelligence blended with your sarcastic wit and dry humor to be quite an essential ingredient in my interest of this particular forum, and I know I'm not the only one in the same boat...I always admire your ability to pick apart just about what anybody posts and dissect it....along with occasional advanced English words I learn from your asininely brainiacal complexion, and others as well of course, not to mention the deep insights I've gained from reading your words of wisdom and so on....so, all in all, bottom line is...if you gave up on us and left...I would indeed shed many a tear :sad:
But I know, just like everybody else, including me, you cannot escape the addictive wrath of The Shroomery...you'll always come back!! muahahahahahah-coughackspit-hahahaha!
So yea, like dude, seriously, like, stay here for years to come, so I can boost my IQ a lil, and then leave a legendary legacy...of...The Perennial Swami

btw, Silversoul said you look like this:    


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2102411 -

^^^I was guessing he either looked like that or was some sort of supercomputer with an advanced AI.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: silversoul7]
    #2102713 -

silversoul7 said:
Farmers are hard-working people
My parents are hard-working people
Therefore my parents are farmers. 


Your logic is flawed. (But you knew that, right? :smirk:) 


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: caolite]
    #2102738 -

caolite said:
hehe all you crazy collectors of data, when will you all sit down and stop collecting? were building a trash heap here.



Well, I happen to see us building a massive libarary that houses the inner secrets of the Universe. Just as long as we make the information accessible....

I think insanity is letting all the data sit around and clog everything up. Sit down and take the time to sort out what you have learned and put it in its proper place in your mind. It is what has always let me keep my sanity... :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2102845 -

Thanks for the ass-kissing, er, I mean your kind and thoughtful words. :smile:

Silversoul said you look like this:

That is how I look inside, but externally I actually look remarkably like the guy in my avatar (+ a few years). 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Annom]
    #2102852 -

Farmers are hard-working people
My parents are hard-working people
Therefore my parents are farmers.

Farmers are hard-working people
My parents are hard-working people
Therefore I hate farming!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2102975 -

Applying logical rules to communication is fine and often helpful. Unfortunately the topics that fall into the realm of "Spirituality and Philosophy" deal with many irrational concepts. And some of these debates may even be between "which one is real" or "which one is better" or "everything is..." irrational or rational. Explaining irrational concepts with logical rules (www.highintelligence.com) is like communicating what a cube is by drawing a picture of it.

Making statements like "I find a fundamental error in the concept of "Chi" when applied in this specific situation." and then pretending that it is a specific and logical question that deserves a specific and logical answer is a fallacy. And when you pick apart other people who try to answer the question for not being specific enough, the only person you are hurting is yourself. This forum (for the most part) deals with broad theoretical concepts that are experienced in subjective realms. These issues can't all be handled like scientific proofs because they are either not communicated thoroughly enough or not thoroughly communicable.

All we can do here is be open, be honest, and try to understand each other. This is the type of communication where everyone wins, logical or illogical.


--------------------
i am another you

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: jiva]
    #2103125 -

Applying logical rules to communication is fine and often helpful.
Yes, that is good.

Unfortunately the topics that fall into the realm of "Spirituality and Philosophy" deal with many irrational concepts. And some of these debates may even be between "which one is real" or "which one is better" or "everything is..." irrational or rational. Explaining irrational concepts with logical rules (www.highintelligence.com) is like communicating what a cube is by drawing a picture of it.
This generalized rant means what exactly? Pinpoint a specific error so that I may learn from you.

Making statements like "I find a fundamental error in the concept of "Chi" when applied in this specific situation."
Wrong thread.

...and then pretending that it is a specific and logical question that deserves a specific and logical answer is a fallacy.
Merely stating that it is a fallcy means nothing. Please demonstrate the fallacy.

And when you pick apart other people
No person was hurt during the filming of these posts. The words ARE NOT the person.

These issues can't all be handled like scientific proofs
Fallacy of generalization and strawman rolled into one. Some topics can quite easily be handled by scientific proofs.

All we can do here is be open, be honest, and try to understand each other.
I do try, but clarity of expression MUST come before understanding.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2103372 -

touche. though i think i conveyed my point (perhaps not). ^_^


--------------------
i am another you

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: jiva]
    #2103488 -

Quote:

the topics that fall into the realm of "Spirituality and Philosophy" deal with many irrational concepts.

touche. though i think i conveyed my point (perhaps not). ^_^ 



You did, and very well I might add.  :smile:
But if Swami abided by that, we'd have less Swami, and that wouldn't  be much fun now would it?  Every movie worth watching has an element of conflict.

Once someone probes a post which is making spiritual claims, and does so using the scientific method and logic, and that post is *defended* in those terms which are really only appropriate in their own sphere, the Swamis of the world have already won. Piece o' cake.




--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Jellric]
    #2103511 -

*another tear is shed for Jello-ric* (Shit! Am running out of tears.)

Once someone probes a post related to spiritual claims using the scientific method and logic...

So physical abilities cannot be tested using the scientific method, eh?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2103587 -

Quote:

*another tear is shed for Jello-ric* (Shit! Am running out of tears.)





Now now. After all you've endured starving yourself in that damn box, you really can't afford to waste any more valuable minerals and fluids, my friend. We just got you back, don't over exert yourself!

Quote:
So physical abilities cannot be tested using the scientific method, eh?



I believe I said "spiritual". Admittedly, a word that is fast losing currency, but I'm going with it until I can find a better one.



--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Jellric]
    #2104579 -

First of all if that is a pic of Swami, You gotta respect a man that has the balls to post a pic of himself in speedos. Anyways, i'd volunteer to be the new swami, but i probably wouldn't go as easy on you all. Also it seems to piss people off that i care more about the content of my posts then indenting... Not to mention i'm lazy, and at any moment may disappear from these boards never to return, or atleast not for several weeks or months.
Now for something randomn, but not really... here is a lil quote that i grabbed from the scifi.com website by the late scifi author Robert A. Heinlein, that seems relevant to this thread. He said that there were three irreducible requirements of a civilized mind, and they are, " make up your own mind always, but first, think it through, but first get the facts, to as many decimal places as possible."
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be

Edited by ZenGecko (11/14/03 01:26 AM)

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Re: Swami Sheds a Tear [Re: Swami]
    #2104797 -


Edited by Papaver (11/14/03 04:40 AM)

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