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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #20855434 -

Yeah, I do have a lot of fun with all this shit. It just keeps going and going and going and all I feel anymore is pure bliss. It's the wisdom behind the meanings that you need to find inside yourself. Not the context of the answers you are receiving.

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE]
    #20855440 -

SleepyE said:
i don't think there is a picture.

i think its more like whatever floats ur boat but feel free to subscribe if you like the sound of my shiiit




Quoted for honesty.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Define God [Re: Icelander]
    #20855444 -

Icelander said:
SleepyE said:
i don't think there is a picture.

i think its more like whatever floats ur boat but feel free to subscribe if you like the sound of my shiiit




Quoted for honesty.



:cheers:


--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE]
    #20857351 -

it is the eternal majesty of infinity

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Re: Define God [Re: Digitalis]
    #20857376 -

good answer. I completely agree.

divide by zero right :tongue:


--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE] * 2
    #20857612 -

Well, I would preface this with two things:

First of all, what I designate as "God" is an object to which I attribute various experiences I've had in my life, from mystical experiences of transcendence to seemingly implausible synchronicities to a general sense of being guided and experiencing purpose in my journey through life (and that I also read into the broader movement of history).  I feel it's important to preface with this because I also like to speculate about the metaphysical nature of this thing I call "God," and that while my metaphysical framework has shifted over the years, the experiences to which that framework refers are still there and still valid.

Second, I would like to say that definitions are imperfect, even for everyday objects, let alone for matters of ultimate concern.  As Wittgenstein pointed out in his Philosophical Investigations, the meaning a word is often found not in a set of necessary-and-sufficient conditions that we normally associate with a definition, but rather by a "family resemblance" in the ways the word is used.  One of the traditional attributes ascribed to God is "transcendence," and if there's one thing the divine surely transcends, it is surely our attempts to nail it down to a concise definition.  This is the motivation behind apophatic or "negative" theology, which seeks to understand God only in terms of what he is NOT.  However, I think there is also a place for cataphatic or "positive" theology, for we can at least draw analogies for what God is like, even if they don't fully capture what God is.  With that said, here's my current thinking on the subject:

The Gospel of John famously begins: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was God."  The "Word" in this English translation is "Logos" in the original Greek.  This is a very significant word with a long history in Greek philosophy going back as far as Heraclitus.  It is where we get the word "logic," but it has a greater significance than that.  See, for the Greeks, logic was not just some skill of the human mind, but rather something out in the world that was imperfectly grasped by our mind.  It embodies Plato's categories of the Good, Beautiful, and the True.  The Logos was thus a kind of order to the cosmos, similar to the Egyptian idea of Ma'at or the Chinese concept of the Tao.  This isn't a static order, but a dynamic and creative one.  It embodies a creative principle by which novelty emerges from habit, and new possibilities emerge.  The Logos is the outer expression of God as revealed in creation.  For Christians, this culminates in the "Word made Flesh" in the person of Jesus Christ.

Yet this Logos still seems a bit impersonal, even if it is finally expressed in a person.  What does it mean to have a "personal God," as the Abrahamic traditions lay claim to?  It would have to be a God who is not only an abstract principle, but who is responsive to us.  One we can relate to as "thou" and not merely as "it."  For this to happen, this cosmic principle would also have to have experience.  How is this possible?  Here, I think we need a metaphysics not only about God, but about ourselves, as well all created beings.  We need a theory of consciousness.

And so forgive me if I take a detour here from God to the soul.  I promise there is a point to all this.  It is common to assume that consciousness is produced by the brain.  There is no agreement among neuroscientists as to how this is accomplished, but it remains the default assumption.  This problem is known if philosophy of mind as the "hard problem" of consciousness: how conscious experience emerges from unconscious matter.  Descartes thought that mind and matter were two entirely distinct substances that somehow interact with one another, and this conception of mind tends to be the prevailing view among those who claim to believe in the "soul."  Modern materialism laughs at the idea of soul, but struggles to come up with a neurological explanation for the hard problem.  However, there is a more ancient alternative that has has recently become more popular.  It is known as "panpsychism," which says that consciousness is somehow fundamental, existing at differing levels of complexity at all levels of organization, from quarks to atoms to molecules all the way up to us.  This idea has recently been developed by neuroscientist Giulio Tononi, who proposed that consciousness can be identified as integrated information.  That is, an entity is conscious to the degree that it integrates disparate pieces of information into a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.  For example, while a digital camera may take in lots of information, if you take away half the pixels in the picture, you get half the picture, whereas if you cover up one of our eyes, we still get a whole picture.  Each eye receives a whole picture that is integrated together in the brain.  Tononi describes how everything, even the smallest quark, integrates information to some degree, and therefore has some sort of inner experience, no matter how primitive.  This idea has recently been taken up by Christoph Koch, a protege of Francis Crick, who spent years searching for the "neural correlates of consciousness," and found that it must be understood in terms that transcend neuroscience.

So where does God fit in here?  Well, if this Logos connects all that exists, then it would form the most comprehensive network in existence and integrate it into the most conscious thing in the universe.  It would be essentially the consciousness of the universe itself (or multiverse, if such a thing exists).  The sum of all our individual experiences would be integrated into this larger experience.  By tapping into this larger consciousness, we experience what in Christianity is known as the Holy Spirit.

Yet this still does not give us a God who is responsive in the way that a personal God would be.  For that, we need not only consciousness, but memory.  Like consciousness, it is often assumed that memory is stored in the brain.  We do know a thing or two about the formation and retrieval of memories, but what happens in between - the storage of memory - remains a mystery.  There doesn't seem to be a "memory center" in the brain.  Rather, when we retrieve a memory, the same neurons that fired during the original experience are activated again, as if to reconstruct the experience.  But reconstruction implies an original from which to reconstruct, so we are left begging the question.  The popular theory of memory "engrams" - neural imprints that store memories - takes us into an infinite regress, because if we are trying to recall a memory, then we would have to remember what memory to recall, and remember the memory of that memory, etc.  This becomes very messy for a brain to do.  In his book Matter and Memory, Henri Bergson offered a different view:  rather than being stored as material traces in the brain, memories are part of an objectively existing past.  We experience the present as a set of open possibilities to act upon.  We experience the past as a set of closed possibilities we can no longer change, but which can influence our choices in the present.  The difference between the two is one of causal openness versus causal closure.  The past, in a sense, is still very much present, albeit without the ability to act upon it so as to change it.  So we perceive the past in much the same way that we perceive the present.

So, if we return to this idea of a universal consciousness, our individual experiences of pain and pleasure, hopes and dreams, etc., are all integrated into this universal consciousness, which feels these experiences with us, and responds to them.  It is in this way that the Logos takes on a dynamic quality, both affecting all created beings and also being affected by them.  God then offers possibilities in response to the needs of those beings, and the beings choose among those possibilities.  God, then, is not the exception to this metaphysical system, but the supreme exemplification of it.


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Re: Define God [Re: Silversoul] * 1
    #20857675 -

Silversoul, that was exquisite. 

:thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE]
    #20863710 -

Can't define it, but you know it when you see it.


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Flex Your Rights - What to do when dealing with Law Enforcement



Know your rights! Don't talk to law enforcement officers under any circumstance, even if you are innocent.

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Re: Define God [Re: moonsphere] * 1
    #20863719 -

God is the universe we live in. We were made in the universes image, and are eternally bound by it's laws. The son of god, and our lord father is our star the sun, the light bringer. Earth is both heaven and hell, your actions and the actions of the greater community determine which for everyone. And when you die, you're reincarnated into several different life forms, through the carbon cycle.

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE]
    #20863799 -

The absolute infinite existence by its very nature is indefinable (even that definition stinks)

If i was to sum it up in words the answer to the question 'what is God?' would be - the intuition 'I Am'


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Re: Define God [Re: Chronic7]
    #20863880 -

The Chronic said:
The absolute infinite existence by its very nature is indefinable (even that definition stinks)

If i was to sum it up in words the answer to the question 'what is God?' would be - the intuition 'I Am'



Great post.


--------------------
Flex Your Rights - What to do when dealing with Law Enforcement



Know your rights! Don't talk to law enforcement officers under any circumstance, even if you are innocent.

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE]
    #20866823 -

1/0


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Define God [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #20867429 -

binary?


--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #20867648 -

Silversoul, that post is marvelously constructed! :thumbup: A lot of other great posts in this thread as well.

I'm going to reproduce something I just read from Simple Kabbalah by Kim Zetter because she tackles this question well.

"...just who God is, or what God is, is undefinable. One of the first principles of Kabbalah then, is that God cannot be known. This is fairly ironic, since all of Kabbalah is based on the impulse to know God and understand His powers.

We can know God to a certain degree, the Kabbalists say; we can know some of the characteristics or aspects or parts of God that He reveals to us, but beyond these we are handicapped by human limitations. We belong to the finite world, and God belongs to the world of the infinite, which is beyond our human comprehension. Any attempt to know Him, to define who or what He is, puts boundaries on the infinite, which essentially negates its infiniteness. Kabbalists liken this to trying to catch a thought in the palm of your hand. It cannot be done.

How do we know something? By defining it and giving it a name; by describing what characteristics belong to it and by assigning those characteristics names. Any animal that is warm-blooded, has vertebrae, mammary glands, and hair is given the name mammal. We know it by the characteristics it has, and then we combine all of this information into a code (a name), which becomes shorthand for the thing itself.

Another way we know a thing is to distinguish it from what it is not. In other words, when we see a bird and don't know what kind of bird it is, we first eliminate everything that it is not. In the same way, we might try to approach God by defining Him by what He is not; only we don't get very far because there isn't anything that God is not. God is everything, so to assign Him a name would be to say that He is this, but He is not that. This we cannot do, because there is no end to what God is and what God includes. God, the congruence of all things past, present, and future, the representation of all time and no time at the same time, is within His essence unlimited, and if unlimited then undefinable, and if undefinable then unnameable, and if unnameable then ultimately unknowable.

This is why when religious Jews write the names of God in English, they spell it G-d, as a way to acknowledge that God cannot be captured by language, and why when Jews reading the Bible aloud come accords the traditional four letter name for God in Hebrew - YHWH (also known as "the Tetragrammation" from the Greek word for "four letters") - they substitute the names Elohim or Adonai instead, which are less sacred names for God. God has a name - after all, we have to refer to Him by something - but we cannot speak it.

YHWH is called "the ineffable name of God". The infiniteness of God is actually expressed in this name. YHWH is a conglomeration of the past, present, and future conjugations of the Hebrew verb "to be." God is all things and all places and time. He has no beginning - as far as we can determine - and He has no end - as far as we assume. He just is; or rather He was, is, and always will be. When all the Hebrew letters of the conjugations for "it was," "it is," and "it will be" are joined and double letters removed, we are left with the Hebrew letters yud-heh-vav-heh, which is unpronounceable as a word."


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Thanks shroomery!

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Re: Define God [Re: ikku]
    #20867770 -

I haven't read all the posts. I start them but sort of tire out (no offense) before the end. The way I look at it, trying to define God, even if only to say that one cannot define God, is a bit like saying God doesn't exist. It strikes me as a negation of the thought of any pinned down God while simultaneously being supported by thoughts about God. A circular process. And while all well and good, I prefer an alternative. Just letting it go.

A few years back I semi concluded for myself that God is notta -- sunyata in buddhist terms. That which supports and maintains everything but cannot ever be pinned down as anything in particular. And when that happened, as it happened, it hit me like a ton of bricks that any effort to pin it down was a misuse of my energy.

After that point I stopped being drawn to posts negating or supporting God. Mostly because it had been rendered completely moot. That wasn't my battle any more. There was no more wrestling with it, trying to make it real or false. To what end?

The only reason I'm posting now is in case anyone else is near that. To speak from experience that it is possible to let go. Not to let go of ecstatic experience or of doubt or of fear, but of the secondary process of turning those things into traps. AH-HA! Gotcha now! :lol:

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Re: Define God [Re: Kickle]
    #20867794 -

I kind of like to go with the philosophy that we create our own reality.

I'm wondering maybe as a collective, we subconsciously decide on a mutually beneficial idea or concept of God which manifests into reality based on the parameters we objectively agree on.

But then again who the fuck knows :shrug:


--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel

Edited by SleepyE (11/20/14 08:38 PM)

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #20869783 -

GOD - The Totality of Everything, as One.

or

ALL IS ONE


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Define God [Re: Asante]
    #20869932 -

Lots of airplane pilots say sometimes when they are flying airplane directly upwards toward the sky that they are able to reach up and touch the face of god.

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Re: Define God [Re: SleepyE]
    #20870263 -

SleepyE said:
binary?



Undefined.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Define God [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #20870289 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
SleepyE said:
binary?



Undefined.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero



"Blackholes are where God divided by Zero." :yesnod:


so everytime i have a level 5 psychdelic experience, God is dividing me by zero.

wouldnt that mean im unity?


--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel

Edited by SleepyE (11/21/14 12:42 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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