|
flickedbic
Sojourner



Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 4,673
Loc: Fractalic Fabric
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
|
Christ 1
#25004368 - 02/18/18 07:27 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
What do you have to lose?
Historical accuracy, verified authorship of eyewitness testimony, added to prophetic fulfillment and finished by eyewitness martyrdom and the empty tomb yields a potent combination for something not to be discounted.
|
klhouse



Registered: 12/12/15
Posts: 671
Loc: SE Virginia
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
|
You can't prove a thing. Nothing to loose? I see nothing to gain.
Prove to me it is real without using the ancient text. Prove to me how your life is better... in cold hard numbers. Not fantasy illusions.
If your god is soooooooooo great, why is it so hard to prove scientifically?
-------------------- Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.
|
flickedbic
Sojourner



Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 4,673
Loc: Fractalic Fabric
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
|
|
Time doesn't invalidate verified eyewitness testimony.
|
klhouse



Registered: 12/12/15
Posts: 671
Loc: SE Virginia
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
|
Uh, yes it does.
People in those times claimed to see all kinds of sea monsters and gods and demons and unicorns, etc. They thought thunder was angry gods in the sky.
If he don't do miracles NOW, then I don't care. And I don't mean your cousin's great aunt heard about some neighbor that had a tumor disappear.. I mean provable, repeatable, miracles.
-------------------- Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.
|
sprinkles
otd president


Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 21,527
Loc: washington state
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
|
|
.
Edited by sprinkles (02/22/18 08:50 PM)
|
sprinkles
otd president


Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 21,527
Loc: washington state
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
|
|
I dont believe in wind or UV light. or radio frequency waves or anything my human mind see.. must not be real am the ultimate form of intelligence.
Edited by sprinkles (02/22/18 08:29 PM)
|
Eatshit
Stranger


Registered: 04/18/17
Posts: 27
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
|
|
Why would you not love Jesus? A great spiritual teacher
|
klhouse



Registered: 12/12/15
Posts: 671
Loc: SE Virginia
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
|
I'm not saying there is nothing greater, I'm saying if it is, it is not doing a damn thing to help the human race.
Fairies may exist, but I'm not going to have my life evolve around the chance that they MIGHT exist. Show me a fairy and I'll believe you.
-------------------- Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.
|
klhouse



Registered: 12/12/15
Posts: 671
Loc: SE Virginia
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
|
There are other spiritual leaders that I admire more. Ones who were against slavery.
-------------------- Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.
|
sprinkles
otd president


Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 21,527
Loc: washington state
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
|
|
read the old testament. seek HIM yourself. No one here is going to do the work for you. ask him to show you his will for your life.
Edited by sprinkles (02/22/18 08:28 PM)
|
klhouse



Registered: 12/12/15
Posts: 671
Loc: SE Virginia
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
|
It is hard to believe people believe this 2000 year old mythology in 2018.
-------------------- Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 day
|
|
Quote:
flickedbic said: What do you have to lose?
Historical accuracy, verified authorship of eyewitness testimony, added to prophetic fulfillment and finished by eyewitness martyrdom and the empty tomb yields a potent combination for something not to be discounted.
There is a HUGE difference between the Hellenistic-Jewish notion of Logos that the gospel author designated John wrote about, and the purely Hellenistic mythological material that made Iesous a demigod. It was ONLY John who cast Iesous in the role of 'God clothed with flesh.' Yet, his Hellenistic, Pagan description so overshadowed the Synoptic [same view] authors Mark, Matthew and Luke, that the average Christian forgets that the earlier authors considered Iesous to be 'a man anointed by God,' NOT God incarnate. This is why the majority of Jews did not accept the incarnation doctrine after the Johannine material was available, it was pure Greek mythos. Incidentally, John's Prologue [Pro-Logos] which spoke of the Logos, is rendered "Word" in the NT, one of its many meanings. John appropriated the word Logos and the concept of it being the Mind of God (vs. the Unmanifested Godhead) from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria who ostensibly lived contemporaneously with Iesous. I have a read Philo, he has left a tome of writings. Odd that a man who wrote so extensively on the Logos was unaware that the very Logos had been incarnated not terribly far from where he lived, philosophized and wrote in Alexandria, Egypt. 
The New Testament was written after-the-fact using prophesies from the Tenach, for highly politicized reasons. I consider Iesous to be the paradigm for human development, but there is NO eye-witness material to prove his historical existence and it is likely he is a composite literary character of several wisdom teachers made to be a singular fulfillment of multiple prophesies. This was the conclusion of the first person to write about the historical Iesous in modern times, Dr. Albert Schweitzer's The Quest for the Historical Jesus. It is also the contention of post-modern authors Tim Freke & Peter Gandy in several of their popular but well documented books on Gnostic religion. I personally do not require a historical Iesous to be a disciple of the teachings. Now the theological doctrines and dogmas that derived from the original moral and metaphysical teachings is a whole other discussion.
Matthew used the Greek Septuagint instead of the Hebrew original. So the saying of Isaiah 7:14 that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem to a "young woman" [almah], NOT betholah [virgin] was not translated correctly. Greek had only one word for BOTH young woman and virgin, parthenos, so the tradition that the Messiah was to be born of a virgin is a complete error of translation. Even IF Iesous existed as a mendicant wisdom teacher in 1st century Judea, the stories in the New Testament were derived from the earlier Egyptian Coffin and Pyramid texts. Want proof of this? Read D.M. Murdock's book Christ in Egypt. Moreover, the gospel narratives were written as Hebrew midrash, a style intended to teach a spiritual truth, NOT to impart objective, journalistic accuracy. There was no reporter from the 'Bethlehem Gazette' observing an astronomical anomaly which shone a beam of light onto a glow-in-the-dark infant in a manger while three Person mages approached the child bearing gifts. Midrash! This goes double for the tomb narratives and the transfiguration (upper room), tomb, ascension and resurrection narratives. All of the material requires demythologization as well as understanding of midrashic style or else a very puerile literalist 'belief' will violate common sense and be mistaken for faith.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
xzylocybin
Stranger



Registered: 06/10/12
Posts: 2,304
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
|
|
No weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall confute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication from me, declares the Lord.
|
BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
|
|
Christ is perfect; Christ is that which doesn't reincarnate..
|
flickedbic
Sojourner



Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 4,673
Loc: Fractalic Fabric
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
|
|
Your proposition that Jesus is a myth and not a historical figure goes against the vast majority of modern historians and even critical scholars.
Quote:
critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed. (...) Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is more probable than not(...)
Most scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed(...)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Quote:
Almost all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed(...) two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 day
|
|
Well of COURSE mainstream, exoteric Christianity 'believes' that Iesous is a historical figure. Christianity is a historical religion, not a cosmic or acosmic religion. I am not asserting that he was not a historical personage, only that there is no archeological proof, nor personal writings, nor historical reports. The Jewish Roman historian Josephus has maybe a single line, as do the writers Tacitus and Suetonius. The gospels were written decades after the alleged ministry of Iesous, John's gospel being the latest. However, the early church destroyed most of the materials that did not support its theological agenda. Thank God the Nag Hammedi library was unearthed in 1945 even though it took decades to piece together and translate. The discoverer's ignorant mother used a portion of the treasure to start a fire in her oven. We'll never know what those writings may have contained about the earliest following of "The Way."
I am in disagreement with a major portion of theological doctrines inasmuch as Christianity conflates mythos with history, metaphor for metaphysics, midrash for matter-of-fact, and magick for mysticism. The metaphysical moments of resurrection and ascension are depicted in mythical images but are understood by the multitudes materialistically. Luke 24:51 says "While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven," but "heaven" as a metaphysical condition and 'the heavens' as reference to the celestial abode of stars are conflated in ancient times. The kingdom of God is referred to as the kingdom of heaven by Matthew who avoided writing a Divine Name. Even today, Jews often write G-d instead of God. Heaven is a spatial metaphor for the being of God. It would have been better if the text read that Iesous was "taken up into God." That would open up the mystical mind-set over a mythological one. Iesous' ascension in esoteric terms is a subjective experience, rising in the spheres on the Kabbalistic Tree, entering into the Supernal Triangle or above into Ain Sof Aur, the Eternal Light. If it meant a physical ascension, there would disappointingly be no throne in the heavens any more than there would be a giant in a castle at the top of Jack's beanstalk. Iesous would be way past the Kuiper Belt by now! 
Christians, except for the theologically adept, do not know how, when or where to interpret ancient writings, often rejecting common sense and science to fit the writings into a Procrustean bed of wrong understanding. Jewish scholarship has a hermeneutical method called PRDS or Pardes, which analyzes scriptures into literal, allegorical, symbolic or mystical levels of meaning. Now 50% of the American adult population does not have Formal Operational Thinking, they live with Concrete Operational Thinking. (Jean Piaget). Most Christians I have spoken to have very concrete, literal and I might add childish understandings of scriptures. Their spiritual development has remain fixated at a very puerile undeveloped level and they refuse to break away from these 'forms.' It is like someone who still counts on one's fingers being asked to do algebra or calculus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis)
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 day
|
|
Quote:
BrendanFlock said: Christ is perfect; Christ is that which doesn't reincarnate..
Christ refers to chrism, oil, with which one's head was "anointed" in ritual, as in the divine right of kings. "Thou anointest my head with oil" in the 23rd Psalm for example, but Hebrew men wore long haired pulled into pony tails which may have been oiled so there is a common usage besides ritual meaning. Nevertheless, the reference to being a "son of God" is a title that every king of Israel had in the past. The title did not mean a demigod of mortal woman and Deity as father. That reference is culled from Greek mythology. To have "the mind of Christ" means to be aware of the Logos, translated as "Word" in the NT. The Logos is the Nous of Platonism, the Realm of Forms, Eternal Ideas, Archetypes. The Logos is personified by the title Christ[os], and by the doctrine that 'the Logos [Word] was made flesh.' "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."- John 1:3 MUCH of Christian theology is appropriate Neoplatonism, including and perhaps most poignantly the Holy Trinity whereby the One-Nous-Anima Mundi (World-Soul) was renamed Father-Son [Logos]-Holy Spirit.
As to transmigration, the Eternal Return (Mircea Eliade), cyclical time, was superseded in Christianity (as it was in Judaism), by linear time. Individuals, as with the universe, are created at a point in time, but there is for both the individual and the cosmos a transformation. Regardless, something must die to give birth, The world ends, but something is saved. "Truly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains by itself. But if it dies, it produces much fruit." - John 12:24 On the other hand, given a large enough cycle, and a segment of it may appear to be a line. I suppose it depends in part on whether we live in an Oscillating Universe (Cyclic model) wherein the expanding matter stops, then reverses into a 'big crunch,' then explodes again into a new cosmos or whether expansion continues but instead of speeding up it slows, stops, burns out. Christ/Logos would seem to be more of a 'storehouse consciousness,' an Alayavijnana than Nirvana, which is Liberation from the cycle of rebirth.
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/19/18 03:11 PM)
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
|
|
Multiverse for the win
|
flickedbic
Sojourner



Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 4,673
Loc: Fractalic Fabric
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
|
|
Based on what evidence?
|
r00tcmplx
Stranger

Registered: 02/19/18
Posts: 419
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
|
|
I suggest you educate yourself on religious/human history and various civilizations that predate the bible/Abrahamic religion. I suggest you also research the history of human language and grasp that you can't make up stories/belief/truth in the middle of human history without a language. Everything stacks on top of another and borrows from another. The arrow of time points way. Truth didn't suddenly arrive in the middle of human history. It was always there. It was always evolving. Our understanding was always increasing. You have a lot to lose by believing in man made lies. Also, like many, you seem to have read and interpreted many metaphysical aspects of the bible literally. If you truly seek truth and spiritual maturity, I suggest you get beyond 'dude on a cross' sent to save mankind by God. The point of this 'tale' was to convey a vivid image of how many crucifies the truth time and time again only such that it rises higher and higher and is born anew. In such bold actions, there is a great capacity to confuse/delude as well as open the eyes of people. You're going to be on this ride for a lot longer if you fail to grasp what's going around you and continue to walk through life asleep. For some, this is your first rodeo... That is sometimes self evident and a feature of sorts interlaced. Go back further in time in human history, religious history, spiritual, philosophical, human language and realize something profound. If you don't realize something and come to a higher truth upon doing so, milk is indeed suited for the babe and meat for men.
|
|