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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20136795 -

And I like how you rolled the subjective bits of me describing a pig / flower.... into you talking about objective bits..... in regards to pain... without ever once talking about how plants feel their own version of pain


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20136809 -

Kind of like.... you didn't want to hear anything but what you wanted to hear..... so as to bolster your own view.....


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: LittileSkierDude]
    #20136893 -

LittileSkierDude said:
MuffinShroomMan said:
The ability for something to make an audible sound for you.... or to feel "pain" doesn't make it any less right or wrong ethically.

When a plant is hurt.... it is effected. They wilt... they change colors... they "bleed"... they just dont scream for you.... or do what you recognize as "pain" which is just your body saying "hey bro youre dying".


this is your best argument in my opinion. I like how you described pain. but like I said before, it is difficult to feel empathy for something that functions so differently from yourself. yea, pigs are pretty different from humans. but they do make noise when hurt, like us. they do feel pain, in the same way we do. this creates empathy..which is pretty damn important in ethics whether one wants to think so or not. we feel empathy for things we can relate to, and slightly less empathy for things that we can't relate to



So youre saying because you can find more empathy for your pig.... than for a strawberry plant..... I should too?

I find empathy not just based off my connections with a thing.... but also its significance. A cockroach means little to nothing to me and I'm sure it feels pain.


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20136918 -

How many cockroaches would you kill before you killed a pig? I mean... now we are just questioning what we think individually.

The fact is both are living things and both have to sacrifice the biggest sacrifice there is to sustain human life. And to do it... they can't live healthy full lives. In texas they have multi-season crops.... which means they harvest multiple times per year.... a plant doesnt even live for a year before being uprooted.

Animals get to live for ages.... and what are we feeding them while they are going on living? Other plants.

So ethically speaking.... do we raise and kill plants......

or raise and kill plants..... feed them to animals... raise and then kill those animals for food?

Which has more suffering?


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20136925 -

I dunno... now I'm arguing off topic.... and also against my own view.


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20136940 -

Completely can see the stand point of..... cutting out the middle man for these animals and just eating what they were going to eat...


But then how many lives dont ever exist that could have existed? Those pigs.... get to live because of us. They get to open their eyes and be alive. Without us.... they would never have gotten even their miserable existence.

If one day we find out humans can live forever... and also learn time travel.... would we go back in time and just kill random humans without care because "they were going to die anyways"?


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20136956 -

hmmm I'm actually not sure about insects...
that lead me to this wiki article that I found pretty interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_invertebrates

but anyway I didn't say that everything in the animal kingdom is similar to us...I said that we feel empathy (not always a choice, more of an involuntary response)for things that we can relate to. insects seem pretty damn dissimilar. at least enough for my personal empathy response. but like you said, that's just me...but then becoming a vegetarian is about me too. I'm not trying to force vegetarianism on you at all and I love plants too...just feel differently about them. but yes this threads getting a little off from the OP although I've enjoyed the discussion.

oh and about bringing a pig into life. see this thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19996146 haha

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: LittileSkierDude]
    #20137324 -

MuffinShroomMan said:
Samurai Drifter said:
MuffinShroomMan said:
Chickens are stupid creatures that have no use other than being eaten or being kept alive to produce edible things.

Pigs are disgusting things that eat anything and are also just meant to be there to eat.

Strawberry plants are PRETTY things... that have no use other than to be eaten.


And when I say "meant" I mean.... our human existence revolves around the eating of X... and that pig /chicken and those strawberries are one of the many X's.


"Pretty" and "disgusting" are subjective terms which hold no weight in a coherent system of ethics. Whether or not something has the ability to feel pain and suffering is an objective fact based on neuroscience, and that's the criteria which should come into play when deciding what is right and wrong.



Well its hard to describe a beautiful flower without saying pretty... and its hard to describe a filthy pig without saying disgusting. But nice deflection there.


He wasn't deflecting. He was saying that your argument makes no logical sense based on scientific knowledge. Pain isn't just a creatures reaction to that pain. Pain is a feeling and to be able to feel pain a creature needs to have a nervous system. Plants do not have nervous systems.


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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: clock_of_omens]
    #20137639 -

clock_of_omens said:
MuffinShroomMan said:
Samurai Drifter said:
MuffinShroomMan said:
Chickens are stupid creatures that have no use other than being eaten or being kept alive to produce edible things.

Pigs are disgusting things that eat anything and are also just meant to be there to eat.

Strawberry plants are PRETTY things... that have no use other than to be eaten.


And when I say "meant" I mean.... our human existence revolves around the eating of X... and that pig /chicken and those strawberries are one of the many X's.


"Pretty" and "disgusting" are subjective terms which hold no weight in a coherent system of ethics. Whether or not something has the ability to feel pain and suffering is an objective fact based on neuroscience, and that's the criteria which should come into play when deciding what is right and wrong.



Well its hard to describe a beautiful flower without saying pretty... and its hard to describe a filthy pig without saying disgusting. But nice deflection there.


He wasn't deflecting. He was saying that your argument makes no logical sense based on scientific knowledge. Pain isn't just a creatures reaction to that pain. Pain is a feeling and to be able to feel pain a creature needs to have a nervous system. Plants do not have nervous systems.




"Pain isnt just a creatures reaction to that pain. Pain is a feeling"

Pain is a feeling that you comprehend and therefore has more value to you??

Subjectively speaking... pain isnt just a creatures reaction to that pain

Objectively speaking.... it is.


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20137645 -

Just stupid. This is all you loon's seem to argue in here. (I say that as a figure of speech I dont think everyone here is a loon and I don't think all loons just argue BS semantics and the like)


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20137689 -

A plant, a pig, and a human all want to live.

All 3 express this need differently.

A pig can be upset that its confined inside an area. It will show you this (I assume) by laying in a corner or pushing on the bars.... or maybe making noise.

A plant thats confined inside an area.... will stretch and when it cant stretch... itll bind in on itself... and slowly kill itself... and eventually die. It will want out.... but it wont be able to.

Your definition of "want" here would definitely play a role in how you view such a scenario.... For example.... if you already see plants as non-sentient things, you would instantly go to thinking.... "it was just growing wherever it could".... and to that I say to you.... isn't that what we are doing? Like... humans?


But with my experience in growing plants.... they are alive I can tell you that much. If those plants could speak.... they'd tell you not to kill them. Is that not enough?


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20137706 -

Are we sentient? Or are we just mirrors reflecting environment? Can we really "feel"?

The difference between a plant and me.... is my species kicked some ass and took some names.


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20137712 -

I bring this up because... obviously humans are sentient.... we made the word up to describe us... but what definition is sentient beyond "Humans have the ability to do this... haha that living thing right there does not"


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20137746 -

I think not eating red meat makes sense because it is mammals who have the capacity to feel the most pain.

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20137780 -

MuffinShroomMan said:
"Pain isnt just a creatures reaction to that pain. Pain is a feeling"

Pain is a feeling that you comprehend and therefore has more value to you??

Subjectively speaking... pain isnt just a creatures reaction to that pain

Objectively speaking.... it is.


Just because I don't feel the animals pain, doesn't make it irrelevant to me. That is what empathy is for. How is it objectively speaking just the creatures reaction? That makes no sense. Just because you can't feel the animal's pain doesn't mean that it can't.

I am not arguing semantics. I am arguing based on science. You are the one who is arguing useless semantics.


MuffinShroomMan said:
A plant, a pig, and a human all want to live.

All 3 express this need differently.

A pig can be upset that its confined inside an area. It will show you this (I assume) by laying in a corner or pushing on the bars.... or maybe making noise.

A plant thats confined inside an area.... will stretch and when it cant stretch... itll bind in on itself... and slowly kill itself... and eventually die. It will want out.... but it wont be able to.

Your definition of "want" here would definitely play a role in how you view such a scenario.... For example.... if you already see plants as non-sentient things, you would instantly go to thinking.... "it was just growing wherever it could".... and to that I say to you.... isn't that what we are doing? Like... humans?


But with my experience in growing plants.... they are alive I can tell you that much. If those plants could speak.... they'd tell you not to kill them. Is that not enough?


I am obviously not denying that plants are alive, that would be asinine. It doesn't matter if plants could talk. The fact is that they cannot. They also cannot feel pain, which is the only relevant property. Plants are non-sentient.

MuffinShroomMan said:
Are we sentient? Or are we just mirrors reflecting environment? Can we really "feel"?

The difference between a plant and me.... is my species kicked some ass and took some names.


Yes. No. Yes.

No, the difference between a plant and you is vast. You have a nervous system, they do not. You have various other organ systems that they do not have. You have the ability to think and reason and communicate with language, plants do not. You don't even have the same type of cells as a plant does.

MuffinShroomMan said:
I bring this up because... obviously humans are sentient.... we made the word up to describe us... but what definition is sentient beyond "Humans have the ability to do this... haha that living thing right there does not"


We did not just make up the word to describe us. Sentient means the ability to feel. This does not only describe humans. It describes non-human animals too.


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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: clock_of_omens]
    #20137804 -

Blah I'm guessing I put quotes in various locations to do what you did in your response.... but fuck learning....


    MuffinShroomMan said:
    "Pain isnt just a creatures reaction to that pain. Pain is a feeling"

    Pain is a feeling that you comprehend and therefore has more value to you??

    Subjectively speaking... pain isnt just a creatures reaction to that pain

    Objectively speaking.... it is.



Just because I don't feel the animals pain, doesn't make it irrelevant to me. That is what empathy is for. How is it objectively speaking just the creatures reaction? That makes no sense. Just because you can't feel the animal's pain doesn't mean that it can't.

I am not arguing semantics. I am arguing based on science. You are the one who is arguing useless semantics.



MY RESPONSE ONE:
You saying that pain isnt just a creatures reaction to that pain... is a subjective thought.

Me saying that pain IS just a creatures reaction to that pain.... is an objective thought.

No idea where the bold and underlined bit are coming from.
END RESPONSE






    MuffinShroomMan said:
    A plant, a pig, and a human all want to live.

    All 3 express this need differently.

    A pig can be upset that its confined inside an area. It will show you this (I assume) by laying in a corner or pushing on the bars.... or maybe making noise.

    A plant thats confined inside an area.... will stretch and when it cant stretch... itll bind in on itself... and slowly kill itself... and eventually die. It will want out.... but it wont be able to.

    Your definition of "want" here would definitely play a role in how you view such a scenario.... For example.... if you already see plants as non-sentient things, you would instantly go to thinking.... "it was just growing wherever it could".... and to that I say to you.... isn't that what we are doing? Like... humans?


    But with my experience in growing plants.... they are alive I can tell you that much. If those plants could speak.... they'd tell you not to kill them. Is that not enough?



I am obviously not denying that plants are alive, that would be asinine. It doesn't matter if plants could talk. The fact is that they cannot. They also cannot feel pain, which is the only relevant property. Plants are non-sentient.


MY RESPONSE TWO:
You guessing that the plants are not sentient... and also that they cannot feel pain.... are also subjective here....

We have no idea if plants feel some sort of "pain". They definitely cannot feel what you and I feel when shit goes to our cerebral cortex and gives us "pain" and then we respond with creating more or less mental "pain" and eventually have an ending "feeling" of that "pain"....

But are you telling me something isn't lost when that plant dies? It was alive..... now its not.

I dunno.... I guess I just see things differently than you.
End Response


    MuffinShroomMan said:
    I bring this up because... obviously humans are sentient.... we made the word up to describe us... but what definition is sentient beyond "Humans have the ability to do this... haha that living thing right there does not"



We did not just make up the word to describe us. Sentient means the ability to feel. This does not only describe humans. It describes non-human animals too.


Response three:
Really? You're going to tell me why we came up with the word sentient then right? Since I'm definitely wrong and it definitely wasn't made to describe the feelings humans experience..... it was for something else.

I agree it happens to describe non human things... hence why I was talking about plants being sentient.... I assumed we agreed animals were.... otherwise it'd be a shitty argument.

But that definitely doesnt mean I'm wrong by itself. The word sentient MOST LIKELY was invented to describe human feelings.[/gradient]


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

Edited by MuffinShroomMan (06/16/14 02:54 AM)

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20137823 -

I dunno if you enjoy just trolling people and leading them around or what have you.... but I have no problem with it. Got shit else to do.




And btw I mean what we mean by the word "sentient" and not the actual word sentient. I'm sure sentient came from a different word and thats why that specific word was invented.


--------------------
"Mein Fuhrer!!!! I can WALK!!!!"



For every trolls head you sever... 10 more will spawn in its place.
For every 10 trolls you give advice to... 1 will listen.


Special thanks to shroompuncher for making the cool pic <3

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: MuffinShroomMan]
    #20137836 -

I like the idea of being vegetarian,but sadly to weak to give up a couple of meat products :blush:


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My B+ grow

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: clock_of_omens]
    #20137842 -

Plants are definitely NOT "non-sentient", that is a ridiculous statement that really IS comparable to people saying the world is flat. We simply don't understand how they perceive the world yet.

Edited by Ran-D (06/16/14 03:08 AM)

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Re: ethical vegetarians [Re: EntheogenicJourney] * 1
    #20137843 -

Is it just me, or is PS&P plagued by stoners who can't remember a topic long enough to stay on it? :shrug:  Anyway, just to answer the original question:

I'm a vegetarian who eats ethically produced dairy & eggs (organic pastured dairy, homegrown eggs only).  My primary motivation for eating this way is because I don't want to cause suffering, and animal captivity and slaughter cause a lot of suffering. :sad:

I don't volunteer my reasons for vegetarianism to others - I only share if somebody else brings it up.  I'm quite honest about my views when asked, though; I don't eat animals because I know it causes a huge a mount of suffering, and I don't want to contribute to that.  People who eat meat usually become very uncomfortable when I say that, and occasionally quite hostile.  It doesn't bother me because I'm speaking from my heart and doing what I believe is for the best.

I rarely share more than my personal reason for not eating animals - that I don't want to hurt them.  To me that's the whole point - I don't want to hurt anybody if I can avoid it, and animals are somebody too.  So I don't eat animals.  Most people seem to understand that easily enough, feel uncomfortable and guilty, and move the conversation along at full speed!

Also...it hardly ever comes up except among friends.  I've never been bothered by somebody in a restaurant etc....I just ask for a such-and-such a dish with tofu & no meat and leave it at that.  At a party or whatever, I'll just eat whatever doesn't have meat; if I can, I'll cook some dank vegetarian food and bring it to share.  If I'm offered something with meat in it, I just say "no, thanks."  I have never in my life felt the need to say "I don't eat meat" unless asked directly: "do you eat meat?"

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