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OfflineEpigallo
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Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian?
    #9338415 - 11/30/08 06:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Let's ignore environmental and health issues for now, and just consider the immediate pain and or suffering that may be caused by killing any species.

How conscious an organism is at least roughly corresponds to how complex it is. As we move up the biological hierarchy, there are increasing sensing structures and neuronal structures. Human brains basically include and supersede all mammalian brains, all mammalian brains include and supersede reptilian brains, etc.

Instinctively, we value more complex organisms; given the choice, we will kill a cockroach before a koala bear.

So, the choice is whether to kill a few complex (and more conscious) organisms, or a much greater number of less complex organisms. Which is more ethical? I think it boils down to efficiency.

In order to convert grass or grain energy into meat energy, a huge amount of energy is lost in the conversion as body heat, body movements, waste, etc. So the ethics scale tips towards the vegetarian diet.

Do you agree?


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9338435 - 11/30/08 06:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Over-population is what causes the ethical problem not an omnivorous diet. Omnivourous diets are natural and healthy.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Offlineiamconfused
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9338472 - 11/30/08 06:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The stake on my plate says no. But seriously, a vegetarian diet makes the most logical sense for our planet and our continued survival as the world population explodes. Meat is biologically inefficient to mass produce and the methane gas (a greenhouse gas) produced by domesticated cows alone is actually becoming a major, largely unspoken, problem. And gee, I wonder why.

But, it seems we keep doing the same thing, because we're used to it, and for now, it still works. We don't stop until we hit a wall and it crashes on top of us. That's just how we live. I keep eating meat because it's cheap and it's constantly in front of my face, even though I know the logic behind it (it's cheap and an easy way to get a lot of my dietary needs) is not a logical process that works for the world. It's the kind of logic that applies to a person that lives in a society where everything is mass produced and arrives in giant box stores in constant supplies.

The problem is that a lot of us live like that is the whole world. It's not. I'm working on changing, but I'm failing currently, so I really can't fault anyone else.


Edited by iamconfused (11/30/08 06:34 PM)


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9338475 - 11/30/08 06:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Omnivourous diets are natural and healthy.




Way to stay on topic.

Quote:

Over-population is what causes the ethical problem not an omnivorous diet.




What do you mean?


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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9338477 - 11/30/08 06:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Agreed. I still cannot fathom how many pigs or chickens we kill each day. Cows too. And anything else you can deep fry.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9338686 - 11/30/08 07:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Carbs are directly linked to diabetes not protein. What does this tell us?

Cigarettes are made out of ?

A. Meat
B. Vegetable matter

You now have your answer.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9339426 - 11/30/08 08:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Carbs are directly linked to diabetes not protein. What does this tell us?

Cigarettes are made out of ?

A. Meat
B. Vegetable matter

You now have your answer.




Did you fail to understand the focus of the thread?


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9339694 - 11/30/08 09:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

its wrong to kill things that want to be alive.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9339732 - 11/30/08 09:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Let's ignore environmental and health issues for now,

In order to convert grass or grain energy into meat energy, a huge amount of energy is lost in the conversion as body heat, body movements, waste, etc. So the ethics scale tips towards the vegetarian diet.




I'm not sure you do. Ignoring environmental issues then making an environmental issue (energy conservation) a centerpiece of your argument does not compute.

As to creatures suffering, I guess human suffering (from consuming plants) does not count, eh?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Coaster]
    #9339751 - 11/30/08 09:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree. Now show that chickens want to be alive.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Coaster]
    #9339893 - 11/30/08 10:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
its wrong to kill things that want to be alive.




Two things.

Tell that to the carnivores.

How do you know that plants don't want to be alive?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Coaster]
    #9339900 - 11/30/08 10:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
its wrong to kill things that want to be alive.




Self-preservation is a drive of all biological lifeforms, not just animals. Just because plants can't visibly respond to death in the same way as animals - which behave more like us - doesn't mean that their drive is any less interrupted.


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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9339947 - 11/30/08 10:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think it's really naughty for carnivorous plants to eat bugs.:hissyfit:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9339982 - 11/30/08 10:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I lost my pinky in the Amazon to a particularly nasty Venus Fly trap.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9340234 - 11/30/08 10:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Let's ignore environmental and health issues for now,

In order to convert grass or grain energy into meat energy, a huge amount of energy is lost in the conversion as body heat, body movements, waste, etc. So the ethics scale tips towards the vegetarian diet.




I'm not sure you do. Ignoring environmental issues then making an environmental issue (energy conservation) a centerpiece of your argument does not compute.





My use of energy efficiency was to demonstrate the impact we have on the consciousness of other species. If consciousness is what we value, and consciousness is roughly correlated with biological complexity, then from loss of efficiency it follows that eating animals destroys more consciousness than eating plants, thus, the ethical sway.

Quote:


As to creatures suffering, I guess human suffering (from consuming plants) does not count, eh?




The point of this thread was to just analyze the ethics in relation to other species. We could bring tons of elements into the issue, but I think there is merit in examining each individual element, and then evaluating their synergy.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9340321 - 11/30/08 10:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

My use of energy efficiency was to demonstrate the impact we have on the consciousness of other species. If consciousness is what we value, and consciousness is roughly correlated with biological complexity, then from loss of efficiency it follows that eating animals destroys more consciousness than eating plants, thus, the ethical sway.





Uh huh. How many beef cattle would likely exist if everyone was a vegetarian?

Would we not then have less cattle and less complexity?

Try again.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9340466 - 11/30/08 11:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If you consider the net complexity on the earth, who knows, it could fluctuate either way. But humans would personally be extinguishing less complexity in other species.

Now, the question you bring up is: can the biological complexity we extinguish be offset by what we introduce? I think the answer is no; remember, we are only evaluating the advantage or detriment to nonhuman species. Each organism has a drive to stay alive; it avoids pain and death if possible. But, when we raise cattle it is born because of our drives.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9340494 - 11/30/08 11:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

But, when we raise cattle it is born because of our drives.




:sheepfucker:


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9340553 - 11/30/08 11:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Nice rebutthole.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9340584 - 11/30/08 11:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Don't sass me! :nono:


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