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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9342778 - 12/01/08 11:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How did we decide on consciousness as the standard of value, and how is it measurable? A correlation with biological complexity seems like a bias from our perspective - we think ourselves the most complex and the most conscious, and judge the value of other life based on its similarity to us.

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #9342783 - 12/01/08 11:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)


The spirit of an animal dwells in its flesh.  When we eat their flesh, we absorb their spirit into ours and they merge with our consciousness.  We are less an individual, and more a team of the spirits that combine to make the self.  As the pinnacle of evolution, the human team is the best team to be on, so animals desire that we eat them so they can merge with us.  It's like skipping a bunch of rungs on the reincarnation ladder and automatically becoming human.


:lol: You're funny.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9343045 - 12/01/08 12:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And if you eat a clown, you will taste funny. :rimshot:


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OfflineUnversable
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9343731 - 12/01/08 02:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Pain is an illusion.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Unversable]
    #9343740 - 12/01/08 02:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's why it hurts so much. Living in illusion is painful.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9343937 - 12/01/08 03:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
So OK to eat maybe 20-30% and then throw the rest away?




store the rest in the fridge so that you do not have to kill another animal tomorrow. that is, if you are seeking the more 'ethical' path




But is it ethical to have a fridge? Imagine what you're doing to the environment with your food storage device!


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: adrug]
    #9344063 - 12/01/08 03:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:



OK, if you don't accept a processor handling all the functions, you can imagine a "Honey, I Shrunk the Ape" scenario. Introduced into suburban homes, I am sure they would be met with the same "Get this thing out of my sight" response as any common insect - nobody can hear ants even if we see that they're in pain, and I doubt that anyone justifies reflexive extermination by comparing the non-complexity of insect minds.




That's a magical scenario, it doesn't make sense. The brain is big for a reason; atoms have certain size, molecules have certain sizes, and cells certain sizes. You can't possibly shrink it.

Quote:

There are plenty of practical reasons not to kill an ape as opposed to ant; apes don't inhabit the same areas as humans and don't threaten us, they're larger and harder to kill, they're not part of many diets outside of Pankot Palace. Ants are all over our homes, small and creating disorder on the floor and swarming all over the food, inconvenient to just usher out of the house, so spray and stomp and be done with them.

We'd like to think this is because we value apes' consciousness over the ants', but I think it's more just a matter of convenience. Add to that how similar apes look to us, how much they behave like us, and then killing them seems like killing a human being. I don't really see there being any value judgment to make here.






I have had one cockroach and one lizard in my apartment. The cockroach was bigger. They both inhabited the same space, and were equally inconvenient. I killed the cockroach, but put the lizard outside even though it was I could have just as easily killed it. I myself made a value judgment; how can you say there is "no value judgment to be made"? A lizard is more complex, and yes, closer to us, because we are on top of the biological hierarchy, and we can rightfully assess that maybe one organism deserves a little better treatment than the other. I mean, have you ever taken an antiobiotic? How did you make the value judgment that you were more important than the bacteria??


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344259 - 12/01/08 03:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I highly contend that my fish-rich diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet. Obviously my own health is more important to me than the inconclusive ethical debate over eating animal (humans are still all about survival after all) so in some ways a nonstarter.

However I might not eat fish if there was a huge amount of unnecessary cruelty involved in getting it onto my plate. I dont eat eggs from chickens that stand in their own shit and piss and I dont eat mass-produced meat of any description. As someone else said, its the Industry that stinks, not the fact that you're eating animal flesh.


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344305 - 12/01/08 04:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

As someone else said, its the Industry that stinks, not the fact that you're eating animal flesh.




So if I go around and euthanize animals before I eat them, that is just as good as eating plants? What if I euthanize human animals and eat them?


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344400 - 12/01/08 04:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

On some primitive instinctual level, I feel that eating human flesh is :eek::thumbdown::crankey: However, by all reports it does taste quite good, much like steak. Maybe it depends how hungry I am


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344407 - 12/01/08 04:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And seriously yes I dont have a problem with eating animals that are treated with respect while they are alive and while they are being slaughtered.


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344453 - 12/01/08 04:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mr_kite said:
And seriously yes I dont have a problem with eating animals that are treated with respect while they are alive and while they are being slaughtered.




Are you sure? Have you ever killed one yourself?


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344529 - 12/01/08 04:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ive been fishing, does that count?


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344567 - 12/01/08 04:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

only if when you say "animals" you only refer to fish


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344597 - 12/01/08 04:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Quote:

mr_kite said:
And seriously yes I dont have a problem with eating animals that are treated with respect while they are alive and while they are being slaughtered.




Are you sure? Have you ever killed one yourself?




I've killed many animals. As a youth and during survival training. I tried to make it quick and clean. Then I ate them all up, not just the "good" parts.

Now I prefer vegetable matter for the most part. My body likes it. However I would return to meat eating was there need.

The problem with all this IMO is that I get the feeling some people think nature is cruel and wrong and we need to fix it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344715 - 12/01/08 05:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Instinctively, we value more complex organisms; given the choice, we will kill a cockroach before a koala bear.




Source?

It might be easier to kill a cockroach than a koala bear, but ease of killing does not automatically dictate ethical standards.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344735 - 12/01/08 05:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

bradley said:
Instinctively, we value more complex organisms; given the choice, we will kill a cockroach before a koala bear.




Source?

It might be easier to kill a cockroach than a koala bear, but ease of killing does not automatically dictate ethical standards.




:rofl: Show me one wo/man who would rather kill a koala bear over a cockroach. Was there any point in that comment?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344746 - 12/01/08 05:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344766 - 12/01/08 05:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Would you rather kill a cockroach or a polar bear that's just invaded your house?

The point is which is ethically harder to kill, not which is pragmatically easier.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344778 - 12/01/08 05:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just for killings sake I think most people would certainly feel killing a bug was not as serious as killing something we can relate to as somewhat having feelings like us. Not everyone of course but there is only one of you.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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