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OfflineEpigallo
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Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian?
    #9338415 - 11/30/08 06:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Let's ignore environmental and health issues for now, and just consider the immediate pain and or suffering that may be caused by killing any species.

How conscious an organism is at least roughly corresponds to how complex it is. As we move up the biological hierarchy, there are increasing sensing structures and neuronal structures. Human brains basically include and supersede all mammalian brains, all mammalian brains include and supersede reptilian brains, etc.

Instinctively, we value more complex organisms; given the choice, we will kill a cockroach before a koala bear.

So, the choice is whether to kill a few complex (and more conscious) organisms, or a much greater number of less complex organisms. Which is more ethical? I think it boils down to efficiency.

In order to convert grass or grain energy into meat energy, a huge amount of energy is lost in the conversion as body heat, body movements, waste, etc. So the ethics scale tips towards the vegetarian diet.

Do you agree?


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9338435 - 11/30/08 06:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Over-population is what causes the ethical problem not an omnivorous diet. Omnivourous diets are natural and healthy.


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Offlineiamconfused
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9338472 - 11/30/08 06:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The stake on my plate says no. But seriously, a vegetarian diet makes the most logical sense for our planet and our continued survival as the world population explodes. Meat is biologically inefficient to mass produce and the methane gas (a greenhouse gas) produced by domesticated cows alone is actually becoming a major, largely unspoken, problem. And gee, I wonder why.

But, it seems we keep doing the same thing, because we're used to it, and for now, it still works. We don't stop until we hit a wall and it crashes on top of us. That's just how we live. I keep eating meat because it's cheap and it's constantly in front of my face, even though I know the logic behind it (it's cheap and an easy way to get a lot of my dietary needs) is not a logical process that works for the world. It's the kind of logic that applies to a person that lives in a society where everything is mass produced and arrives in giant box stores in constant supplies.

The problem is that a lot of us live like that is the whole world. It's not. I'm working on changing, but I'm failing currently, so I really can't fault anyone else.


Edited by iamconfused (11/30/08 06:34 PM)


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9338475 - 11/30/08 06:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Omnivourous diets are natural and healthy.




Way to stay on topic.

Quote:

Over-population is what causes the ethical problem not an omnivorous diet.




What do you mean?


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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9338477 - 11/30/08 06:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Agreed. I still cannot fathom how many pigs or chickens we kill each day. Cows too. And anything else you can deep fry.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9338686 - 11/30/08 07:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Carbs are directly linked to diabetes not protein. What does this tell us?

Cigarettes are made out of ?

A. Meat
B. Vegetable matter

You now have your answer.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9339426 - 11/30/08 08:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Carbs are directly linked to diabetes not protein. What does this tell us?

Cigarettes are made out of ?

A. Meat
B. Vegetable matter

You now have your answer.




Did you fail to understand the focus of the thread?


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9339694 - 11/30/08 09:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

its wrong to kill things that want to be alive.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9339732 - 11/30/08 09:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Let's ignore environmental and health issues for now,

In order to convert grass or grain energy into meat energy, a huge amount of energy is lost in the conversion as body heat, body movements, waste, etc. So the ethics scale tips towards the vegetarian diet.




I'm not sure you do. Ignoring environmental issues then making an environmental issue (energy conservation) a centerpiece of your argument does not compute.

As to creatures suffering, I guess human suffering (from consuming plants) does not count, eh?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Coaster]
    #9339751 - 11/30/08 09:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. Now show that chickens want to be alive.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Coaster]
    #9339893 - 11/30/08 10:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
its wrong to kill things that want to be alive.




Two things.

Tell that to the carnivores.

How do you know that plants don't want to be alive?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Coaster]
    #9339900 - 11/30/08 10:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
its wrong to kill things that want to be alive.




Self-preservation is a drive of all biological lifeforms, not just animals. Just because plants can't visibly respond to death in the same way as animals - which behave more like us - doesn't mean that their drive is any less interrupted.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9339947 - 11/30/08 10:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think it's really naughty for carnivorous plants to eat bugs.:hissyfit:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9339982 - 11/30/08 10:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I lost my pinky in the Amazon to a particularly nasty Venus Fly trap.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9340234 - 11/30/08 10:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Let's ignore environmental and health issues for now,

In order to convert grass or grain energy into meat energy, a huge amount of energy is lost in the conversion as body heat, body movements, waste, etc. So the ethics scale tips towards the vegetarian diet.




I'm not sure you do. Ignoring environmental issues then making an environmental issue (energy conservation) a centerpiece of your argument does not compute.





My use of energy efficiency was to demonstrate the impact we have on the consciousness of other species. If consciousness is what we value, and consciousness is roughly correlated with biological complexity, then from loss of efficiency it follows that eating animals destroys more consciousness than eating plants, thus, the ethical sway.

Quote:


As to creatures suffering, I guess human suffering (from consuming plants) does not count, eh?




The point of this thread was to just analyze the ethics in relation to other species. We could bring tons of elements into the issue, but I think there is merit in examining each individual element, and then evaluating their synergy.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9340321 - 11/30/08 10:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

My use of energy efficiency was to demonstrate the impact we have on the consciousness of other species. If consciousness is what we value, and consciousness is roughly correlated with biological complexity, then from loss of efficiency it follows that eating animals destroys more consciousness than eating plants, thus, the ethical sway.





Uh huh. How many beef cattle would likely exist if everyone was a vegetarian?

Would we not then have less cattle and less complexity?

Try again.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9340466 - 11/30/08 11:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you consider the net complexity on the earth, who knows, it could fluctuate either way. But humans would personally be extinguishing less complexity in other species.

Now, the question you bring up is: can the biological complexity we extinguish be offset by what we introduce? I think the answer is no; remember, we are only evaluating the advantage or detriment to nonhuman species. Each organism has a drive to stay alive; it avoids pain and death if possible. But, when we raise cattle it is born because of our drives.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9340494 - 11/30/08 11:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But, when we raise cattle it is born because of our drives.




:sheepfucker:


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9340553 - 11/30/08 11:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Nice rebutthole.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9340584 - 11/30/08 11:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Don't sass me! :nono:


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9341135 - 12/01/08 01:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
My use of energy efficiency was to demonstrate the impact we have on the consciousness of other species. If consciousness is what we value, and consciousness is roughly correlated with biological complexity, then from loss of efficiency it follows that eating animals destroys more consciousness than eating plants, thus, the ethical sway.




How did we decide on consciousness as the standard of value, and how is it measurable? A correlation with biological complexity seems like a bias from our perspective - we think ourselves the most complex and the most conscious, and judge the value of other life based on its similarity to us.

Can consciousness be created or destroyed, or are we just destroying a complex mechanism for it, a mechanism that reminds us of ours and maybe looks too close to human murder for comfort?


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9341334 - 12/01/08 01:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


How did we decide on consciousness as the standard of value, and how is it measurable?




By looking at what our neural correlates are for our different internal experiences, we can pair consciousness with structure. A reptilian brain is embedded in a mammalian brain, a mammalian in a human brain. I think its safe to pair levels of consciousness with organism complexity. Can you honestly say that an ant might be more conscious that an ape? As for the standard of value, can you say if you had to press a button to kill one or the other, you would choose the ant?


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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9341483 - 12/01/08 02:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think if apes were ant-sized and infested our homes, we would have no qualms about killing them.

Again I think it is an irrational bias to create a hierarchy of consciousness with human internal experience coincidentally at the top, using such standards to rate values of other life. The judgment is moralistic and emotionally tied to things that behave like us at the expense of those that don't.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9341529 - 12/01/08 02:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

An ape couldn't be ant-sized, there is no way you could pack even the brain into that tiny of a space.

Human internal experience isn't coincidentally at the top, but through matching neurological correlates. Through increasing complexity we see structures and behaviors transcend and include those of less complex organisms. Its not an emotional judgment, its logical.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9341592 - 12/01/08 02:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A microprocessor that could handle the functions of an ape's brain could eventually be ant-sized - I think people would be just as likely to abhor the (Lilliputian) tiny pests no matter what the data-processing capacity of their brains.

I'm not saying the behaviors and neurological complexities don't have a hierarchy, but assigning more value to life because of the conscious experience based on that hierarchy is an emotional rather than logical judgment. We haven't taken into account a full understanding of the ecosystem, which often requires killing a certain amount of plants and animals to maintain a better balance for all concerned.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9341723 - 12/01/08 03:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Handle exactly what functions of an ape's brain? The symbolic, the emotional, visual? It has to be an exact replica. That is precisely what gives something its complexity: what it is. Not whether it performs this or that function.


Quote:


I'm not saying the behaviors and neurological complexities don't have a hierarchy, but assigning more value to life because of the conscious experience based on that hierarchy is an emotional rather than logical judgment.




Okay, but whatever type of judgment you call it, you don't think it has validity? When deciding to kill an ant over an ape, do you deem the "emotional" judgment insufficient to actually make that decision?

Quote:


We haven't taken into account a full understanding of the ecosystem, which often requires killing a certain amount of plants and animals to maintain a better balance for all concerned.




I see this as a separate issue, as for now, the question can be isolated to: kill one cow, or the plants that would feed that one cow?


Edited by Epigallo (12/01/08 03:14 AM)


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9341743 - 12/01/08 03:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Sometimes I think its pretty crazy that this hierarchy is the way our society is conceived; like some elaborate system for masterbation. We call this "getting along" much of the time, that is; the self acknowledging and respecting his other, but is this really the case? In a hierarchy, everything feeds the singular top of the food chain.

Natural rights is supposed to be this grand conception of enlightenment, with the great philosophical question of self and other finally answered. But it seems to me that we have only expanded our definition of "us". Once it was the white race, and now it is the human race. The way we get along, is by pretending there is no difference.  Is this the acknowledgement of the other, or a manipulated conception of the singular self?

Perhaps it is easiest to see when we take steps backward, such as in the holocaust or modern ethnic cleansing. It is not any more complicated than reverting back to the concept of the other; the animal.



A more modern take:


"We" haven't really acknowledged our other, at least not as a society. We just live in the mutual security of the self. The only way we can justify getting along is by pretending we are all the same. Anything else is "discrimination", an ability that wasn't a bad idea until we all had to pretend we are the same. We are the same because we are "conscious", but the chief merits that arise from this consciousness; the discriminating intellect, the recognition of the other (as to know your true self, which is only implied by the other. See Jean-Paul Sartre, "existentialism", or "being and nothingness" for elaboration) - We can only in "good taste" ignore them.

Wouldn't it be interesting if there were two distinctly different species, differences we could not ignore, yet two clearly conscious species? What if apes broke the language barrier? Then the hierarchy would not be justified. The problem is, we think this is far fetched, because it involves aliens or talking apes. This is a true conception of the other though.

Sometimes I think we could learn alot from the caste system, that does not function in terms of the natural right.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9341846 - 12/01/08 03:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

the MEAT INDUSTRY is unethical. they put their animals through horrendous pain and feed humans meat which is full of plenty of antibiotics and otehr chemicals which they are not obliged in any way to include on the packaging of their foods.

BUYING MEAT from such industries is supporting an unethical practice, which is in itself considered to be unethical by many people considering the issue.

however EATING MEAT has nothing to do with this... if you eat the meat of an animal which was killed without pain and without suffering, then no one could possibly call you unethical for it.

unfortunately, the ethical meat eating option is way to expensive for most people to include in their lives. especially businesses which have to prepare a lot of meat products.

As for the whole 'supporting an unethical practice'... well pretty much everyone in the world is forced into this because we have formed a world where we get other people to make our clothes, to make our machines, to make our houses, to organise our societies... and once we put the control out of our hands, it is almost a definite consequence that a certain amount of the money we give out will end up going to an unethical practice.

so people should sort of get over it a bit and just do their bit within reason to avoid giving monopoly power to unethical corporations. this just means valuing variety, valuing small scale business, valuing a purchase of goods whereby the money we give gets to the people who produced our product without going first through a corporate power system


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9341871 - 12/01/08 03:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

if you eat the meat of an animal which was killed without pain




A deer buck lung shot with a razor-tipped arrow that runs bleeding for a mile in the snow before collapsing is...

ehtical or unethical to eat?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9341908 - 12/01/08 04:03 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

'less ethical'
than if you caught it and put it out of its misery


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9341921 - 12/01/08 04:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So OK to eat maybe 20-30% and then throw the rest away?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9342029 - 12/01/08 04:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Handle exactly what functions of an ape's brain? The symbolic, the emotional, visual? It has to be an exact replica. That is precisely what gives something its complexity: what it is. Not whether it performs this or that function.




OK, if you don't accept a processor handling all the functions, you can imagine a "Honey, I Shrunk the Ape" scenario. Introduced into suburban homes, I am sure they would be met with the same "Get this thing out of my sight" response as any common insect - nobody can hear ants even if we see that they're in pain, and I doubt that anyone justifies reflexive extermination by comparing the non-complexity of insect minds.

Quote:

Okay, but whatever type of judgment you call it, you don't think it has validity? When deciding to kill an ant over an ape, do you deem the "emotional" judgment insufficient to actually make that decision?




There are plenty of practical reasons not to kill an ape as opposed to ant; apes don't inhabit the same areas as humans and don't threaten us, they're larger and harder to kill, they're not part of many diets outside of Pankot Palace. Ants are all over our homes, small and creating disorder on the floor and swarming all over the food, inconvenient to just usher out of the house, so spray and stomp and be done with them.

We'd like to think this is because we value apes' consciousness over the ants', but I think it's more just a matter of convenience. Add to that how similar apes look to us, how much they behave like us, and then killing them seems like killing a human being. I don't really see there being any value judgment to make here.

Quote:

I see this as a separate issue, as for now, the question can be isolated to: kill one cow, or the plants that would feed that one cow?




I just don't see an ethical basis for making this decision. Ethics as rules were created between humans to approximate or codify sensible standards of dealing with one another, and are only valid in that they represent those standards. To take these rules and extend them to different situations with different sensibilities without analysis is to ignore the purpose of ethics.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9342096 - 12/01/08 04:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
So OK to eat maybe 20-30% and then throw the rest away?




store the rest in the fridge so that you do not have to kill another animal tomorrow. that is, if you are seeking the more 'ethical' path


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9342129 - 12/01/08 05:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Care to elaborate on this idea "more ethical"?

I think I get the basic idea, and yea, this is probably how I live.

But you probably won't catch me using the term.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9342161 - 12/01/08 05:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i say more ethical because no one is trully ethical, and every situation which removes one ethical dillema, most probably opens up another one.

so its pointless to talk in 'ethical' or 'unethical'. as absolutes.

next question might be to ask what are the qualities of being ethical at all?

well it is hard to say, but I generally define it by the Golden rule in some respects


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9342546 - 12/01/08 10:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

they put their animals through horrendous pain

If you're talking about the killing process, then it's only horrendous to watch really. In a pig manufacturing plant they electricute the pig into shock then slit it's throat so it bleeds out. Compare that to the animal kingdom and they may as well shoot up and float off. It only starts to sicken me a little when I notice the volume of production; one plant (near me) produces 18,000 Hogs a day.

We're debating ethics anyways, so no one is going to win. :tongue2:


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Bernackums]
    #9342563 - 12/01/08 10:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ok here is a question I like to ask people.. I was surprised when I started asking people, that many people find this idea sick and inhumane:

What if you destroyed the brain of an animal and grew it in a 'meat factory' where all the animals are hanging on the walls, without brains, just growing meat

???


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9342568 - 12/01/08 10:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

To respond to the title:

Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian?

Yes.

The spirit of an animal dwells in its flesh.  When we eat their flesh, we absorb their spirit into ours and they merge with our consciousness.  We are less an individual, and more a team of the spirits that combine to make the self.  As the pinnacle of evolution, the human team is the best team to be on, so animals desire that we eat them so they can merge with us.  It's like skipping a bunch of rungs on the reincarnation ladder and automatically becoming human.

I don't actually believe this to be the case but would not be surprised if someone, somewhere throughout history did.  It appears the thread title was rhetorical but I thought I'd go for it anyway. :birthday:


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9342596 - 12/01/08 10:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That would be pretty sweet, I am aboard the idea. Michael Crichton runs along a similar idea of genetically engineering animals just for meat in the book Next (Two books references this thread; I've got to get my own material  :confused:). Neither strike me as inhumane, but it wouldn't matter if it did.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Bernackums]
    #9342642 - 12/01/08 10:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think ethics or morals should be applied to beings  (even if they are sentient) if they don't have principles or ideas of "right and wrong". I congratulate their evolutionary process for making them able to feel sensations, but lets remember thats part of the reason most farmers use the most painless means of death.

Lets just remember that no other animal will feel remorse (that we know of) for killing and eating another creature to survive; why?...because its natural, no right or wrong involved, just survival or starvation.

So realistically neither are more ethically sound, they are the same basic process taken in the most convenient or fulfilling form.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9342778 - 12/01/08 11:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How did we decide on consciousness as the standard of value, and how is it measurable? A correlation with biological complexity seems like a bias from our perspective - we think ourselves the most complex and the most conscious, and judge the value of other life based on its similarity to us.

:thumbup:


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #9342783 - 12/01/08 11:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)


The spirit of an animal dwells in its flesh.  When we eat their flesh, we absorb their spirit into ours and they merge with our consciousness.  We are less an individual, and more a team of the spirits that combine to make the self.  As the pinnacle of evolution, the human team is the best team to be on, so animals desire that we eat them so they can merge with us.  It's like skipping a bunch of rungs on the reincarnation ladder and automatically becoming human.


:lol: You're funny.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9343045 - 12/01/08 12:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

And if you eat a clown, you will taste funny. :rimshot:


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9343731 - 12/01/08 02:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Pain is an illusion.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Unversable]
    #9343740 - 12/01/08 02:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That's why it hurts so much. Living in illusion is painful.:tongue:


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9343937 - 12/01/08 03:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
So OK to eat maybe 20-30% and then throw the rest away?




store the rest in the fridge so that you do not have to kill another animal tomorrow. that is, if you are seeking the more 'ethical' path




But is it ethical to have a fridge? Imagine what you're doing to the environment with your food storage device!


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: adrug]
    #9344063 - 12/01/08 03:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:



OK, if you don't accept a processor handling all the functions, you can imagine a "Honey, I Shrunk the Ape" scenario. Introduced into suburban homes, I am sure they would be met with the same "Get this thing out of my sight" response as any common insect - nobody can hear ants even if we see that they're in pain, and I doubt that anyone justifies reflexive extermination by comparing the non-complexity of insect minds.




That's a magical scenario, it doesn't make sense. The brain is big for a reason; atoms have certain size, molecules have certain sizes, and cells certain sizes. You can't possibly shrink it.

Quote:

There are plenty of practical reasons not to kill an ape as opposed to ant; apes don't inhabit the same areas as humans and don't threaten us, they're larger and harder to kill, they're not part of many diets outside of Pankot Palace. Ants are all over our homes, small and creating disorder on the floor and swarming all over the food, inconvenient to just usher out of the house, so spray and stomp and be done with them.

We'd like to think this is because we value apes' consciousness over the ants', but I think it's more just a matter of convenience. Add to that how similar apes look to us, how much they behave like us, and then killing them seems like killing a human being. I don't really see there being any value judgment to make here.






I have had one cockroach and one lizard in my apartment. The cockroach was bigger. They both inhabited the same space, and were equally inconvenient. I killed the cockroach, but put the lizard outside even though it was I could have just as easily killed it. I myself made a value judgment; how can you say there is "no value judgment to be made"? A lizard is more complex, and yes, closer to us, because we are on top of the biological hierarchy, and we can rightfully assess that maybe one organism deserves a little better treatment than the other. I mean, have you ever taken an antiobiotic? How did you make the value judgment that you were more important than the bacteria??


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344259 - 12/01/08 03:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I highly contend that my fish-rich diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet. Obviously my own health is more important to me than the inconclusive ethical debate over eating animal (humans are still all about survival after all) so in some ways a nonstarter.

However I might not eat fish if there was a huge amount of unnecessary cruelty involved in getting it onto my plate. I dont eat eggs from chickens that stand in their own shit and piss and I dont eat mass-produced meat of any description. As someone else said, its the Industry that stinks, not the fact that you're eating animal flesh.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344305 - 12/01/08 04:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

As someone else said, its the Industry that stinks, not the fact that you're eating animal flesh.




So if I go around and euthanize animals before I eat them, that is just as good as eating plants? What if I euthanize human animals and eat them?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344400 - 12/01/08 04:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

On some primitive instinctual level, I feel that eating human flesh is :eek::thumbdown::crankey: However, by all reports it does taste quite good, much like steak. Maybe it depends how hungry I am


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344407 - 12/01/08 04:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

And seriously yes I dont have a problem with eating animals that are treated with respect while they are alive and while they are being slaughtered.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344453 - 12/01/08 04:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mr_kite said:
And seriously yes I dont have a problem with eating animals that are treated with respect while they are alive and while they are being slaughtered.




Are you sure? Have you ever killed one yourself?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344529 - 12/01/08 04:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ive been fishing, does that count?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344567 - 12/01/08 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

only if when you say "animals" you only refer to fish


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344597 - 12/01/08 04:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Quote:

mr_kite said:
And seriously yes I dont have a problem with eating animals that are treated with respect while they are alive and while they are being slaughtered.




Are you sure? Have you ever killed one yourself?




I've killed many animals. As a youth and during survival training. I tried to make it quick and clean. Then I ate them all up, not just the "good" parts.

Now I prefer vegetable matter for the most part. My body likes it. However I would return to meat eating was there need.

The problem with all this IMO is that I get the feeling some people think nature is cruel and wrong and we need to fix it.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344715 - 12/01/08 05:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Instinctively, we value more complex organisms; given the choice, we will kill a cockroach before a koala bear.




Source?

It might be easier to kill a cockroach than a koala bear, but ease of killing does not automatically dictate ethical standards.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344735 - 12/01/08 05:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

bradley said:
Instinctively, we value more complex organisms; given the choice, we will kill a cockroach before a koala bear.




Source?

It might be easier to kill a cockroach than a koala bear, but ease of killing does not automatically dictate ethical standards.




:rofl: Show me one wo/man who would rather kill a koala bear over a cockroach. Was there any point in that comment?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344746 - 12/01/08 05:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9344766 - 12/01/08 05:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Would you rather kill a cockroach or a polar bear that's just invaded your house?

The point is which is ethically harder to kill, not which is pragmatically easier.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344778 - 12/01/08 05:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Just for killings sake I think most people would certainly feel killing a bug was not as serious as killing something we can relate to as somewhat having feelings like us. Not everyone of course but there is only one of you.:lol:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9344805 - 12/01/08 05:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Unwarranted generalizations.  How can you speak for most people?

But allowing this assumption, I still don't think that the issue is a matter of complexity.  Which is easier to kill; a hamster or a giant squid?  Familiarity is a key factor here; along with the issue of which animals have been domesticated and have a ritual history of human use.  Complexity is an oversimplification that exhibits no significant correlation to ethical wrong-ness: you would probably feel no qualms killing a human who had just murdered your significant other, for instance.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344813 - 12/01/08 05:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How can you speak for most people?


I'm old, I've talked to them.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9344826 - 12/01/08 05:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What's cracking, Methuselah?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344838 - 12/01/08 05:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Twas ever thus"


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Irdamage]
    #9344844 - 12/01/08 05:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Agreed :thumbup:

Ethics are preference and apply only to the individual.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Bernackums]
    #9344851 - 12/01/08 05:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:nonono:

Jesus speaks for all people, didn't you know?  And are you saying that whatever I do must be right if it feels right?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9344985 - 12/01/08 05:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
"Twas ever thus"




Hear ye, hear ye, for thy Icelander cometh.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344990 - 12/01/08 05:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9345342 - 12/01/08 06:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

And are you saying that whatever I do must be right if it feels right?

I'm saying morals and ethics are subjective to each person, my right and wrong is different from yours. That is another of the many things I dislike about Christianity, it implies a universal moral system.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Bernackums]
    #9345356 - 12/01/08 06:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So you're fine with my raping a baby so long as I deem it to be right?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9345376 - 12/01/08 06:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

He never said this dude.:crazy2: He said ethics are subjective and personal. He may not like yours but there are no god given rules about it.

We can agree on a set of morals and laws but not everyone would choose them if they were in charge.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9345636 - 12/01/08 07:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No diet can be more ethical than another as long as you take responsibility for it and own it.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #9345665 - 12/01/08 07:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The Dahmer Diet is great for losing fat.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9345704 - 12/01/08 07:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You think that would be healthy? With all of the trash most people eat? Now Icelander eats a good solid diet....an organic one at that, but I would bet he would be too stringy.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9345742 - 12/01/08 07:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
That's a magical scenario, it doesn't make sense. The brain is big for a reason; atoms have certain size, molecules have certain sizes, and cells certain sizes. You can't possibly shrink it.




It's just an ethical thought experiment, but I'll drop it because the lizard-cockroach comparison works as well.

Quote:

I have had one cockroach and one lizard in my apartment. The cockroach was bigger. They both inhabited the same space, and were equally inconvenient. I killed the cockroach, but put the lizard outside even though it was I could have just as easily killed it. I myself made a value judgment; how can you say there is "no value judgment to be made"? A lizard is more complex, and yes, closer to us, because we are on top of the biological hierarchy, and we can rightfully assess that maybe one organism deserves a little better treatment than the other. I mean, have you ever taken an antibiotic? How did you make the value judgment that you were more important than the bacteria??




I don't think you (or if you did, I don't think most people do) really made an ethical value judgment; rather you were disgusted by the stigmatized cockroach but admiring of the lizard - maybe the lizard is more fun to observe because of its complexity, but does that give you the ability to rank how deserving of good treatment it is?

We use antibiotics without even thinking of them as life because of how conveniently and invisibly they serve us. We don't weigh the value of bacterial life, just do as best serves us, and we continue doing this until we see something behaving like us, which makes some people a little queasy.

In fact one might ethically argue with more strength against eating only plants, in that plants have no capacity for observable reaction to instant death - it's less fair to them (and xenophobic) to deem their deaths as acceptable just because they are more alien to our consciousness and supposed lesser beings.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #9345746 - 12/01/08 07:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A benefit of age.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9345764 - 12/01/08 07:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A few days in a crock pot might help.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9345899 - 12/01/08 07:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
So you're fine with my raping a baby so long as I deem it to be right?




I don't know if you had this in mind, but this reminds me of excerpts from The Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini:

Quote:

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby.  However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable.  If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life.  This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister...  It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house, rather than her father's home.  Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.




Quote:

It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.




The first time I read them, they were so ridiculous that I laughed aloud, just imagining this highly-respected world leader, using sterile language to create these arbitrary rules to justify his desires.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9345936 - 12/01/08 07:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If we are to believe that killing vegetables is less immoral than killing animals, then there has to be somthing which distinguishes them which makes the killing right in one case, and wrong in another. 

One might say plants do not suffer as animals do.

To that one might say, what is suffering?  Are not all animals destined for death?  Do we know if plants do not suffer?  Perhaps plants do suffer, but we are unaware of how to read their responses to pain and suffering.

Furthermore, how do we know animals suffer?  Is there any way to confirm that they do?  Would not the claim that animals suffer be equally unprovable as saying that plants suffer?

So with that said, how can we know what is best?  Well, I think it would make sense to believe that the optimal diet for our species would be one which would fulfill three things, our appetites, our emotions, and our reason.

As for appetites, our diet is best when it fulfills all of the criteria for keeping us fit and healthy.  Vegetarian diets can achieve this, but many take some getting used to to say the least.  Our teeth are unlike the teeth of many purely herbivorous animals, and are well suited for a range of applications, including eating poultry, meat, and seafood.

In terms of emotions, it is enjoyable to have a diet that satiates the palate, as well as one which fulfills what desires one may have.  Not everyone desires to be a Buddhist monk, and there is much enjoyment to be had for some who partake in meat, moose in particular is somthing I had today, very good, try it and break your vegan ways the happy way.

In terms of reason, our diet needs to be feasible to fulfill.  The most feasible diet would have the least overhead (in terms of land, waste, and operating cost), and the most reward (in terms of people fed, safe operations).  I would argue that an omnivorous diet provides the widest range of options in adverse conditions.  In the case that a season of growing would fail, omnivores would outlive those morally opposed to eating non-vegetative material.  The most versatile always prevails over the specialized in the face of adversity.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9345944 - 12/01/08 07:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure and even their milk may no longer be consumed.  The animal must then be killed as quickly as possible and burned." :shocked::shocked:


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9346039 - 12/01/08 08:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That one's a lot like something out of Leviticus. My favorites are the ones where he adds all these random corollaries.

Like: "A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on.  However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm.  He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, but selling the meat to a neighbouring village is reasonable."

Just imagine him sitting at a desk with a pen in his mouth, hemming and hawing over the right time to kill after orgasm, the right people to sell the meat to "reasonably." It cracks me up.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9346095 - 12/01/08 08:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zannennagara said:
Just imagine him sitting at a desk with a pen in his mouth, hemming and hawing over the right time to kill after orgasm, the right people to sell the meat to "reasonably." It cracks me up.




At least he gave it an honest try.  Would you prefer unparalleled anarchy, or not knowing when to kill after orgasm?

Even though I feel the quest to mandate an absolute morality is fatally flawed, the motivation for the attempt is still sincere.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9346440 - 12/01/08 09:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Oh sure, the motivation can be sincere - in Khomeini's case, I can't see how he could go to such specific extents without wholeheartedly believing in the morality of his rules - but like you say the fatal flaws of the absolute law create a rigidity that cannot be adapted to better logic or newer information.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9347609 - 12/01/08 11:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You guys are too busy talking beastiality I think my attempt at answering the question of this thread got unnoticed.

"If we are to believe that killing vegetables is less immoral than killing animals, then there has to be somthing which distinguishes them which makes the killing right in one case, and wrong in another.

One might say plants do not suffer as animals do.

To that one might say, what is suffering?  Are not all animals destined for death?  Do we know if plants do not suffer?  Perhaps plants do suffer, but we are unaware of how to read their responses to pain and suffering.

Furthermore, how do we know animals suffer?  Is there any way to confirm that they do?  Would not the claim that animals suffer be equally unprovable as saying that plants suffer?

So with that said, how can we know what is best?  Well, I think it would make sense to believe that the optimal diet for our species would be one which would fulfill three things, our appetites, our emotions, and our reason.

As for appetites, our diet is best when it fulfills all of the criteria for keeping us fit and healthy.  Vegetarian diets can achieve this, but many take some getting used to to say the least.  Our teeth are unlike the teeth of many purely herbivorous animals, and are well suited for a range of applications, including eating poultry, meat, and seafood.

In terms of emotions, it is enjoyable to have a diet that satiates the palate, as well as one which fulfills what desires one may have.  Not everyone desires to be a Buddhist monk, and there is much enjoyment to be had for some who partake in meat, moose in particular is somthing I had today, very good, try it and break your vegan ways the happy way.

In terms of reason, our diet needs to be feasible to fulfill.  The most feasible diet would have the least overhead (in terms of land, waste, and operating cost), and the most reward (in terms of people fed, safe operations).  I would argue that an omnivorous diet provides the widest range of options in adverse conditions.  In the case that a season of growing would fail, omnivores would outlive those morally opposed to eating non-vegetative material.  The most versatile always prevails over the specialized in the face of adversity. "


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9347661 - 12/01/08 11:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A breatharian diet is the most moral followed by a fruitarian diet - but only fruit that has already fallen from the tree.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9347679 - 12/01/08 11:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How do we know animals suffer? Have you ever had a dog or known a friend's dog? You obtain that information through empathy, just as you do through humans.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9347813 - 12/01/08 11:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"How do we know animals suffer? Have you ever had a dog or known a friend's dog? You obtain that information through empathy, just as you do through humans."

What causes empathy?  Do we feel empathy more for animals which we think are "cuter"?  Do some people at least have this standard?  Is the standard for feeling empathy for a suffering thing constant and universal?

Then why do you think you can use it?


Edited by xFrockx (12/01/08 11:50 PM)


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9347831 - 12/01/08 11:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Can we not feel empathy even for nonliving objects?  If someone filled the grand canyon with sand and built a stadium i would feel a great deal of empathy for it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put words on the chasm.

I'm not saying we should mistreat animals for no reason, but simply that eating them is hardly an immortal sin.  Its really amoral, who are you to tell a tiger it's a murderer?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9347845 - 12/01/08 11:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Can you define the criteria by which you set your moral standards? I disagree that diets can be more or less moral simply by content.

(what if I eat babies, har har har?)

I don't, find someone who does and ask them if they feel good about it.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9347922 - 12/02/08 12:03 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Frockx, Id say it makes sense to see it as a dynamic.

basic nervous system ---> consciousness ---> reflexive consciousness---->

I am interested in the idea of caste as opposed to the absolutist concept of the natural right, right and wrong etc. 

See my first post for some of my problems with the natural right.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9347981 - 12/02/08 12:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Frockx, Id say it makes sense to see it as a dynamic.

basic nervous system ---> consciousness ---> reflexive consciousness---->

I am interested in the idea of caste as opposed to the absolutist concept of the natural right, right and wrong etc.

See my first post for some of my problems with the natural right. "

It sounds like you have your own id, ego, and superego thing going there.

I think I know what you mean by caste, I do believe we all have our own way.  I think that all knowledge is learned, and all actions are lead by knowledge and instinct, both of which we have no control over, but we do have the illusion of control.  We have will, although that will is made and lost in the events that make up our life.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9347984 - 12/02/08 12:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

  If someone filled the grand canyon with sand and built a stadium i would feel a great deal of empathy for it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put words on the chasm.

I don't think you are understanding your use of the term empathy.

Quote:


Empathy is the capacity to recognize or understand another's state of mind or emotion




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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Bernackums]
    #9348008 - 12/02/08 12:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I don't think you are understanding your use of the term empathy."

Oh great, so now I'm being accused of not even knowing what I mean by my own words.  Your definition means nothing to me.  Prove "mind" exists, then we'll talk.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? *DELETED* [Re: xFrockx]
    #9348073 - 12/02/08 12:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by begreen0

Reason for deletion: privacy



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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: begreen0]
    #9348111 - 12/02/08 12:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I think it just comes down to minimizing suffering. Sure, we'll never be able to eliminate suffering completely...but by choosing to eat less meat (or eliminate it altogether), we are making a notable contribution to the reduction in suffering. "

In my post I asked several questions attacking the view that we even know what suffering is.  I mean, surely we shouldn't be suffocating cattle as they kick and wail, but i think eating absolutely no meat as a moral judgment is limiting for no reason.

Veggies work, Meat works, Grains work, just let it happen is what I say, we can't even say what suffering is.

Let me reiterate:

Who are we to tell tigers they are murderers?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9348199 - 12/02/08 12:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Daytripper, you made many good points in your first post, but I'll admit I skipped over it because I wasn't sure how you were relating it to the topic. Can you elaborate on the applicability of castes?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9348228 - 12/02/08 12:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
A breatharian diet is the most moral followed by a fruitarian diet - but only fruit that has already fallen from the tree.




I'm curious as to whether anybody believes that it is more ethical to be a fruitarian than it is to be a scavenger.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9348325 - 12/02/08 01:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What about a dirtarian?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9348644 - 12/02/08 02:03 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I will do my best to elaborate, but also probably repeat myself a bit.

As I previously said: in this seemingly enlightened stage of history, we have learned to get along, but only by considering ourselves equals. J-P Sartre, as well as I am sure many other philosophers defined humanism as the self's recognition of the other. This is because Self (and therefore self consciousness), is implied by his other.

But the accepted social state we live in is not so. "Equality" is not the self acknowledging and virtuously  respecting his other, it is living in the mutual security of self, because we are equal.

Look at it this way. The chief human ability we have that animals do not, is our discriminating intellect. And in the same way, prejudice is a basic example of human subjectivity. But prejudice and discrimination are deemed wrong, because we are equal (because we are self-conscious).

Again, this is not the self acknowledging the other. It is a pack mentality. Us and them, or as you mentioned in a post a while back, a basic hierarchy - I would say this hierarchy is a simple animalistic food chain.

Right vs Wrong, Good vs. Evil, natural right vs the license to do whatever you will with anything lacking these rights...etc

---------------

Is consciousness absolute? On the evolutionary path, did something just click one day, and suddenly we were self conscious?

If there is some absolute line between me and an ape, I would say the natural right is sensible, and would believe in absolute justice. Consciousness is "us", and the rest is them ; dualistic, impulsive mechanisms. (PS, Thank God!)

But consider that there is no absolute line between me and an ape, that hypothetically speaking, there could be a significantly dumbed down yet conscious being. Say an ape breaks the language barrier, or futuristic aliens land making us the significantly lesser creatures. If this dynamic of consciousness is at all feasible, then I would reject justice, and the pack mentality of self consciousness. (I reject justice.)

But I am being ridiculous right? I am speaking of talking apes and aliens, things that clearly do not exist.

Caste acknowledges the dynamic of evolving life and consciousness. It is the basic reason why Hindu culture is vegetarian. But most importantly, it is an example of the self actually acknowledging and respecting his (different) other.

On the other hand apparently there has apparently been some major problems with inequality in India. Well, go figure. I never said its perfect, only that I am interested.


Edited by daytripper23 (12/02/08 03:07 AM)


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9348924 - 12/02/08 03:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So is this a suggestion to separate biological levels of complexity into castes?

I guess I don't see the difference between a caste system and an us-and-them hierarchy of consciousness. Within a caste there would probably be many subcastes ignored for the "mutual security of self." Castes are usually rigidly defined, and don't allow transference from birthright - I see an acknowledgment of reincarnation beliefs, but not dynamic evolution, unless I'm misunderstanding.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9349082 - 12/02/08 03:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Is reincarnation really that much different than evolution? It is establishing a bond between me and an ape, while at the same time acknowledges our differences.

Id say its just as well...


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9349126 - 12/02/08 03:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I was thinking of development within one's life cycle; also the possibility of being born in an improper caste. This is again your example of the talking ape or an apish human; similar would be a genius in the untouchables or a boor in the elites.

I wonder also how you delineate the castes in a way that avoids hierarchical judgment, at least as regards acceptability of eating.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9349279 - 12/02/08 04:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Good points,

I don't really know these answers, I just think there might be something to learn from the caste.


I guess my point is rather that this might be a more realistic system if we faced a more perceivable dynamic in consciousness, which is altogether feasible in my opinion. Perhaps we would face incredible sacrifices in comparison to our world of natural rights; but for one thing, Ive learned that coming to terms with reality is often a sacrifice. Consciousness is often a burden...

What is significant, is not so much the way we would treat these hypothetical ape-human beings, but the light it would shed on there predecessors the ordinary ape, whatever is "below" that and so on.

Your right that this wouldn't avoid the hierarchy, I did not mean to indicate that this was specifically a problem. These graduating levels, although admittedly "drawn lines", are a good thing I think. We have them in our society, its animal rights, and things like that. Its better than the simple natural right, and license to kill, or whatever. Animal rights are somewhat ridiculous, but I like the idea anyway.

Hindu culture is generally vegetarian, so that might answer the essential question. Does this mean they are always watching there step for ants? Does this mean if there house is infested they surrender?

---------------
I guess all I can sensibly say, is that we need lines in between our lines, if you catch my drift. This isn't everything though, it is not perfect, we cannot function merely as a system. We must also be intuitive, compassionate beings, and there is no sense in that.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9349614 - 12/02/08 08:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Prove "mind" exists, then we'll talk.




You're not gonna do much talking if you set that sort of requirement!


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9349692 - 12/02/08 09:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What I'm thinking is an extension of Quantum suicide; everything that could happen did. This means that while in your reality you do catch and eat the animal, in the animal's reality he got away unharmed. Therefore we may think we're killing but instead we're just altering our own reality.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9350052 - 12/02/08 11:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Never said I did, but its the perfect way to end arguments.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9350397 - 12/02/08 12:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Is reincarnation really that much different than evolution?




Hmm, let's see...

One is basically fiction based upon superstition; the other a well-tested theory based upon facts.

I remember when people used to actually think before posting.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9350427 - 12/02/08 12:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I remember when people used to actually think before posting.



I don't.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9350450 - 12/02/08 12:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I can't say what I really want without having the post deleted by Wonder Woman.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9350483 - 12/02/08 12:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Tough titty.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9350494 - 12/02/08 12:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Your rejoinders of late are somewhat lacking...


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9350501 - 12/02/08 12:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

BFD


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9350512 - 12/02/08 12:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That was a good example.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9350537 - 12/02/08 12:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well personally I feel it's ok to eat people who pester you.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9350544 - 12/02/08 12:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

OK, I will PM you a list of those who have been pestering me. :yesnod:


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9350554 - 12/02/08 12:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Can't do that when you are on my plate with gravy all over you.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9350909 - 12/02/08 02:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"the other a well-tested theory based upon facts."

What are facts?


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9351034 - 12/02/08 02:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:confused:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9351164 - 12/02/08 02:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Its not a confusing question.  I sure as hell don't know a single fact, and not even that is a fact.

oops, that was meant for orgone, maybe that's why you replied as such


Edited by xFrockx (12/02/08 02:47 PM)


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9351172 - 12/02/08 02:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"the other a well-tested theory based upon facts."


I just don't remember saying this.:confused:

Can you show me?


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9351253 - 12/02/08 03:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Orgone said it, sorry, i messed up the reply-to.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9351518 - 12/02/08 04:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Is reincarnation really that much different than evolution?




Hmm, let's see...

One is basically fiction based upon superstition; the other a well-tested theory based upon facts.

I remember when people used to actually think before posting.




Considering all the biased, offensive, and overtly emotional things I said in this thread, coming back to see that this is what you attack; ill admit this is frustrating.

So mission accomplished eh?

But just to clarify:

I never said that they were the same, I said it is just as well. Just as well, as it relates to the thread. Reincarnation is an acknowledgment of predecessors, just as evolution is.

I did not make the claim that reincarnation is a science, but considered that much eastern thought is harmonious with modern western science.

While I am sure that in the world of orgoneconclusion, this is important, it has nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread, or you at least have not yet demonstrated any meaningful consideration.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9351792 - 12/02/08 04:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ah, so you mean a caste system in terms of what each animal does, separating pets and farm animals (sacred milk cows etc.) from bottom-feeders and pests. I suppose this is a more practical way of looking at animals (maybe humans too?) than a kind of biological complexity ranking.

Yet it will always be our caste system which we apply to them unwittingly. Yes, we give the pets certain rights - they provide us pleasure and companionship and we don't want them abused or killed - but the rights are formed around our judgments of the use of the animals. If some want to use their animals for food, the rights given will be modified - certainly animal carnivores have no concern for the rights given by human vegetarians.

I think there can be sense in wanting to be respectful towards other animals - a game shooter is wasteful and may not be thankful, as part of an inconsiderate worldview, while a hunter can appreciate the gift and share it with others for a basic life need. "Humane" is not, I think, intended to refer to treatment received by animals but treatment given by humans - and there can be human mercy killings, primitive cannibals who won't waste the remnants of battle, situations like the Donner Party.

The idea of rights is nice, but an unwritten (unlined) understanding of respect is preferable to me; it's intuitive and sensible to enjoyment.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9352686 - 12/02/08 07:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Is reincarnation really that much different than evolution? It is establishing a bond between me and an ape, while at the same time acknowledges our differences.

Id say its just as well...




Yes it's completely different. I still dont have a clue what you mean after reading the rest of the thread. I don't see how the two could complement each other in any logical argument, they're based on completely different ideas, schools of thought, the first is speculative whilst the second is a science.


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? *DELETED* [Re: mr_kite]
    #9352849 - 12/02/08 08:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: Keep it impersonal, please.



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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9352978 - 12/02/08 08:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I didn't say its the same, or that it was a science.

I said it is just as well, in the context of my argument.

See this is what happened (you should know, you read the whole thread)

What I had originally conceived was a rough idea of an evolutionary caste system, as particular sort of hierarchy, instead of the natural right. It was then pointed by someone else, that hindu caste was established by beliefs in reincarnation, and that is that.

It was not a claim to validity, or anything like that, it was just an association that arose through discussion. By saying just as well, I meant that a caste (the actual subject matter of my posts) might just as easily be based upon evolutionary considerations.

The funny part about this, is what you and OC have taken upon yourself, has nothing to do with my otherwise, incredibly controversial and naive argument about caste, which is something I have no practical understanding, or even very much theoretical knowledge of.

Sure I was expecting a firestorm, but I thought it would actually address aspects of my actual argument.

Anyways, I am pretty surprised you cannot even imagine a parallel between the two. Now I'm intrigued...


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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9576774 - 01/09/09 02:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
If we are to believe that killing vegetables is less immoral than killing animals, then there has to be somthing which distinguishes them which makes the killing right in one case, and wrong in another. 

One might say plants do not suffer as animals do.

To that one might say, what is suffering?  Are not all animals destined for death?  Do we know if plants do not suffer?  Perhaps plants do suffer, but we are unaware of how to read their responses to pain and suffering.

Furthermore, how do we know animals suffer?  Is there any way to confirm that they do?  Would not the claim that animals suffer be equally unprovable as saying that plants suffer?

So with that said, how can we know what is best?  Well, I think it would make sense to believe that the optimal diet for our species would be one which would fulfill three things, our appetites, our emotions, and our reason.

As for appetites, our diet is best when it fulfills all of the criteria for keeping us fit and healthy.  Vegetarian diets can achieve this, but many take some getting used to to say the least.  Our teeth are unlike the teeth of many purely herbivorous animals, and are well suited for a range of applications, including eating poultry, meat, and seafood.

In terms of emotions, it is enjoyable to have a diet that satiates the palate, as well as one which fulfills what desires one may have.  Not everyone desires to be a Buddhist monk, and there is much enjoyment to be had for some who partake in meat, moose in particular is somthing I had today, very good, try it and break your vegan ways the happy way.

In terms of reason, our diet needs to be feasible to fulfill.  The most feasible diet would have the least overhead (in terms of land, waste, and operating cost), and the most reward (in terms of people fed, safe operations).  I would argue that an omnivorous diet provides the widest range of options in adverse conditions.  In the case that a season of growing would fail, omnivores would outlive those morally opposed to eating non-vegetative material.  The most versatile always prevails over the specialized in the face of adversity.




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