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Offlinelysergicide
Aurora Borealis
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Becoming a vegetarian
    #5256214 - 02/02/06 07:13 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I have decided that i want to become a vegetarian... I really hate the murdering of innocent animals for other beings to eat. But this is why i've came here, to the Philosophy & Spirituality forum, with this question:

do you think that eating meat makes you just as guilty as a somebody who hunts and kills the animals? i dont feel guilty when i eat at taco bell or when i eat chicken. i love meat but i hate killing helpless + innocent animals.


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Offline550c
Day Tripper
Registered: 10/03/05
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: lysergicide]
    #5256227 - 02/02/06 07:17 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

you shouldnt feel guilty for eating an animal, thats what they are here for. Look at your teeth, you can eat meat and vegetables. Dont even feel bad if you kill an animal and eat it. Killing and toturing for sport is what is wrong.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: lysergicide]
    #5256269 - 02/02/06 07:26 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

lysergicide said:
I have decided that i want to become a vegetarian... I really hate the murdering of innocent animals for other beings to eat. But this is why i've came here, to the Philosophy & Spirituality forum, with this question:

do you think that eating meat makes you just as guilty as a somebody who hunts and kills the animals? i dont feel guilty when i eat at taco bell or when i eat chicken. i love meat but i hate killing helpless + innocent animals.




You decide to feel guilty for killing animals? Why not be really good and decide not to kill plants either. They are both made of the same energy and atomic substance. They react to the knife also.

What makes you think someone who hunts and kills his food is guilty of anything other than staying alive?

If you want to feel guilty about something that can have a positive effect I suggest you feel guilty about having children who will need to use up the precious little habitat that is let to the animal and plant kingdom.  :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: Icelander]
    #5256340 - 02/02/06 07:42 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Good point. :thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: lysergicide]
    #5256602 - 02/02/06 08:54 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

i would like it if all of the meat i ate was wild game. i don't have a problem with killing animals and eating meat, but factory-style meat production is kinda sickening and i think unethical.

i don't eat a lot of meat and most of what i do eat is fish, because it's cheap, comes from the wild, and is good for you. i wouldn't give up fish or wild game even if i stopped eating other meat. now just the problem of the damn mercury...


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: wilshire]
    #5256660 - 02/02/06 09:15 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

if thats your only reason for becomming a vegetarian i dont know if id recommend it, its harder than you think. i became a vegetarian while i was a pothead because i couldn't eat meat while i was stoned (which i was every time i ate). for some reason, when stoned i found the taste and consistency of meat nauseating and so i was forced to give it up. after quitting marijuana i found that eating even tiny amounts of meat made me feel sick, so ive been a vegetarian ever since. i know its possible to reintroduce meat into your diet but i dont want to go through the nausea and discomfort which that might intail. i am now at the point where i no longer miss meat or even look at it as food really. however, i just wanted to let you know there are downsides to being a vegetarian. for instance, its a lot harder to find a meal since many restaurants have a very small selection of vegetarian food. it limits what you can eat when you eat over at a friends house and it can feel very awkward refusing food because it contains meat. in addition you face quite a lot of discrimination and prejudice. there are many people out there who feel that everyone should eat meat and if you don't there is something wrong with you. they will make fun of you and your choices of food every opportunity they get. then you also have to explain to people why you're a vegetarian. that has been especially difficult for me because i dont always want to admit that i was a marijuana addict to everyone, so i have to make up some contrived reason. for you there are many people who will laugh at the fact that you don't feel right about eating animals. if it was possible to eat meat occasionally without feeling sick but stick to vegetarian food most of the time then it wouldn't be so bad, but my stomach just can't take that kind of a changeover.

i am not saying you should let any of this stop you from being a vegetarian, i'm simply reminding you to take these things into consideration before you make your decision.


Edited by Deviate (02/02/06 09:18 PM)


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Offlinelysergicide
Aurora Borealis
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: Deviate]
    #5256749 - 02/02/06 09:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

thanks for all the comments, guys. :smile:


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: lysergicide]
    #5256817 - 02/02/06 09:55 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

do you think that eating meat makes you just as guilty as a somebody who hunts and kills the animals? i dont feel guilty when i eat at taco bell or when i eat chicken. i love meat but i hate killing helpless + innocent animals.




I think that killing the animal yourself is more respectable and moral than simply paying someone else to do it in order to avoid guilt. When you kill an animal, it's an intimate connection... a spiritual connection formed when one conscious being consumes the consciousness of another! Blood is real, and so is death and so is life, and you can't separate them.

I would imagine that I would appreciate the sacrifice of the animal more if I accompanied it through it's suffering, and understood what was lost so that I might live. I think I would have more respect for the animal as I put it's flesh in my mouth.

And animals are not helpless... perhaps domesticated animals are docile... but not helpless. People are often maimed and eaten by animals when in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As for being a vegetarian? I think that amount of meat in the average American diet should be reduced as a sheer matter of health and moderation. Instead of honoring the animals we kill we treat them as inferior and worth nothing other than food for us to waste and gorge ourselves with.

I respect anyone who wants to prevent the suffering of animals by becomming a vegetarian, but I find the notion that there is something inherently "wrong" or "sinful" in consuming meat to be utterly ridiculous. Our human machine was designed to have at least some portion of meat in our diet.

Vegetarians are fine until they try to make you feel guilty for killing cattle and poultry.

My lil sis has been a vegetarian for a while, and I respect that. She's always been an animal lover since she was a young child! But the family likes to throw a little banter around when we do have meals together, usually because she has to have her own extra dish or two of vegetarian food cooked with the meal just for her... I love biting into a big hung of lamb in front of her and say shit like "Oh yeah! This murder is SOOOO delicious!" LOL! But we know that we are just joking with each other.

I often make comments about vegetarians like I would with Canadians... I make fun, but I'm never really serious about it.


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InvisibleMezcal
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 1,980
Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: dr0mni]
    #5256864 - 02/02/06 10:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Do what you will...

I'm a happy vegan and have been for almost 9 years now.

The rewards are great :smile:


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Offlinegururvishnu
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: 550c]
    #5256923 - 02/02/06 10:17 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

550c said:
you shouldnt feel guilty for eating an animal, thats what they are here for. Look at your teeth, you can eat meat and vegetables. Dont even feel bad if you kill an animal and eat it. Killing and toturing for sport is what is wrong.




Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's right. Killing for sport and killing for meat aren't really different anymore, because it's absolutely unnecessary to eat meat anyway. Actually, killing for sport with animals such as deer is probably more moral than eating most meat, because it's merely a replacement for natural predatation to which deer have adapted an equilibrium.

Yes, vegetables and meat are both life, however animals have brains which allows some of them to have a consciousness. I doubt fish and poultry have the necessary brain development, but mammals have similar brain chemistry to humans (such as the presence of tryptamines that allow them to dream).

Eating an animal produces pretty much the same results as killing it yourself. You increase the demand, and thus the incentive to raise and kill more animals. You just don't see the action in one of them. And besides, vegetarianism is much more efficient anyway.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: gururvishnu]
    #5257184 - 02/02/06 11:05 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's right




It isn't right or wrong. But thinking makes it so.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinesoylent_green
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: Icelander]
    #5257553 - 02/03/06 12:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

i think you should do what you can. humans are made to eat meat.
personaly i feel that you intake each life you consume. if that animal you eat was kept in a box, kicked around and beaten befor it was pretty much 'murdered' than your gonna take that into your own body.
you could start small, start eating meat once a day, then a couple times a week ect.
also buying organic meat would be a good choice, because at least the animal was treated with some kind of respect.
you could also look up how becomming a vegetarian helps out the enviorment. or how the grain used to feed thoses cows, could be used all over the world to feed people in poverty.

just start small, work big and good luck with whatever you choose!

:smile:


--------------------
What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: soylent_green]
    #5257630 - 02/03/06 01:08 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

yes, i agree soylent - ive been seriously/half-way trying to go vegetarian since last summer, ive been doing pretty good. I eat organic meat when i come over to my parents for dinner and restrict my dosage, and i also eat game meat.

When i was first trying i beat myself up really bad about even wanting meat - but there is a huge barrier trying to overcome past conditioning and marketing/lifestyle within our culture. Now, i do what i can, most of all im becomming more aware of what i eat and the more i study, learn, and want to be attain my ideal vision of health - the closer i get.

Goodluck - factory farms suck. I think hunting with the right intent is fine, and will be getting my hunting liscense next year.


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.


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Offlinekoppie
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: lysergicide]
    #5258249 - 02/03/06 05:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Just realize that if everyone would become a vegetarian, there would be no economic incentive to keep cattle. This would mean that many species would go extinct. Just imagine: no more cows, chickens, pigs...

Meat eaters should be appalled at the conditions of factory farming. As a meat eater it is my belief that farm animals should be treated well in life, killed as quickly and painlessly as possible and be slaughtered hygienically and efficiently. Death is a part of life, and nature shows us that animals eating eachother are an integral part of the ecology. I think it would be an act of arrogance to think we could escape this beautiful dance.

Should we eat less meat? Yes!
Should we prefer free-range meat and shun meat from animals habitually injected with hormones and antibiotics? Of course!
Should we eat no meat? NO!

But these are all generalizations. In the end it's your own personal choice.


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InvisibleFungusMan
I81U812
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: koppie]
    #5258365 - 02/03/06 08:23 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I am a meat lover. Now, after saying that, I would like to share my own personal belief.

For years I have thought the cool idea that it would be appropriate to obtain a meat license. What I mean is, you wouldnt be able to buy or consume meat, unless you got a license. To obtain this license, you would have to personally kill a cow.

I gaurantee that if people had to do that, there would be alot less McDonalds sales,lol. If you cant think of killing an animal that your eating, then thats sad. Just plain sad.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: FungusMan]
    #5258403 - 02/03/06 08:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I've had similar ideas. If you want to eat meat, you should have to kill the animal, cut it open, and prepare it yourself. I bet there would be a whole lot less meat eaters.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: Shroomism]
    #5258422 - 02/03/06 09:14 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you want to eat meat, you should have to kill the animal, cut it open, and prepare it yourself. I bet there would be a whole lot less meat eaters.




You would loose that bet... There are plenty of places in the world where people hunt for their food. I remember butchering chickens on the farm with my Grandmother when I was little. Not too many people stop fishing because they don't like to clean the fish. When we butcher animals for our food every day, it becomes part of life, not some disgusting thought.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: lysergicide]
    #5258455 - 02/03/06 10:07 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I was discussing this with a friend recently, and I surprised myself with an interesting thought:

While it is obvious that we have evolved to eat meat (as evidenced by our teeth and violent instincts,) is it not possible that we are at a point where we can evolve away from it? Does our past justify our future in this respect? We know that it is certainly possible to live as a vegan or vegetarian (all kinds of meat alternatives are available nowadays,) so why not choose to refrain from killing animals to feed ourselves when given the choice? Would it not promote more respect for not only animals, but humans? Maybe that's not a bad thing.

If more and more people made this choice, is it not conceivable that in a few centuries' time, most of the world may have moved away from it? Has there ever been a more appropriate time to deliberately effect this change in our development?

However, is killing a plant fundamentally different than killing an animal? I've always maintained that plants are every bit as alive as animals; the difference we perceive is due to the fact that we relate to the lives of animals better than to those of plants. We both feel physical pain, we both have thoughts, we both have consciousness, but are these important distinctions?

I don't know; but I do know I'm going to Subway in an hour; and I'm not getting the veggie delite.

All this talk of vegetarianism reminds me of a song:

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber.
And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself.
And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.
And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.
One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear.
And terror possesed me then.
And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."

And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light!
They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!
Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!"
Can I get an amen?
Can I get a hallelujah?
Thank you Jesus.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........

This is necessary.
This is necessary.
This is necessary.
This is necessary.
This is necessary.



--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineIrdamage
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #5258498 - 02/03/06 10:38 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Eating meat is just so horridly inefficient. Eating meat is a cause for "chronic hunger" (no not the munchies.

"According to the USDA growing the crops necessary to feed farmed animals requires nearly half of the United State's water supply and 80 percent of it's agricultural land. As well animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90 percent of the soy crop, 80 percent of the corn crop, and a total of 70 percent of it's grain. [16]. In tracking food animal production from the feed trough to the dinner table, the inefficiencies of meat, milk and egg production range from 4:1 energy input to protein output ratio up to 54:1. [17] The result is that producing animal based food is typically much less efficient than the harvesting of grains, vegetables, legumes, seeds and fruits."

Therefor, by eating meat, more and more agricultural resources are being used to feed animals, which produce LESS FOOD THAN THE FUCKING PLANTS THEY WERE FED WITH. Thus causing third world(Peripher and Semi Periphery) countires which are riddled with national debt to produce cash crops to sell off to richer (Core) countries, rather than distributing it to their own people, or producing a more sustainable and beneficial plant.
It is true, if the world became vegetarian there would be no world hunger. I don't try and hold it against people when there shoving a greasy burger into their already spoiled and fatass faces. But im thinking it :wink:.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: Irdamage]
    #5258529 - 02/03/06 10:59 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

In spite of what the honorable :tongue: FDA says it's human overpopulation that is the cause of hunger. The veggie argument is that we could support twice the population if we were all veggies. And I can see their world. Rows of corn and rows of humans and the animals protected in the zoo. Very nice.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: Irdamage]
    #5258764 - 02/03/06 12:48 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> It is true, if the world became vegetarian there would be no world hunger.

We could feed the world now if we really wanted to.  The world becoming vegetarian wouldn't change a thing... other than lots of domesticated farm animals becoming extinct...

It is true, if the world all wore rose colored glasses there would be no violence. :rolleyes:


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineWildRunner
Obey little,Resist much

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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: Seuss]
    #5258908 - 02/03/06 01:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Im a vegetarian.

I miss eating meat. However, I will not eat factory farmed animals.
Since I cannot afford the "good shit", I choose to eat red beans an rice.
People have a misconceived notion that fish is better. Lemme tell you. Farmed fish is just as bad (im me opinion). There are the few lucky times I get chances to get fresh, wild salmon that friends catch. mm mmm. In spring runs, I grab my pole and hit the river bank for some catch of my own.

Ever heard the adage, we are what we eat? Guess what people, we eat FOOD. We are FOOD. As long as the proper respect and know-how is paid, I feel there is absolutly nothing wrong with ending the life of an animal brother to sustain our own. That is, anyhow, the way the real cycle works.


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If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.


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Invisibleeligal
Noobie

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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: lysergicide]
    #5259101 - 02/03/06 02:34 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

theres been alot of good points in this thread, thought id add my opinion.
killing animals for sport is different than killing them for food consumption. im much against killing animals for fun n sport, but i love eating meat. we are human, we can eat both, like its been said, look at your teeth. humans were made a specific way. you shouldnt feel bad eating meat because an animal had to die, thats the circle of life. animals get eaten. when we were cavemen, we were eaten. and we ate.
but we can survive without meat. you shouldnt be completely against meat, but if you are, if youre completely disgusted by it or you feel guilty, than dont force yourself to eat it.

in the end, its all about survival. humans will kill so they could survive. plants have a life energy, but we cant relate to plants on the emotional level as we can with animals, but it is the same. as long as you eat (no matter what it is), as long as you survive, it shouldnt and doesnt matter how, as long as you do.


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\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: WildRunner]
    #5260172 - 02/03/06 07:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Farmed fish is just as bad (im me opinion).

farmed fish is foul.


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OfflinePDU
travel kid vs.amerika
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: Deviate]
    #5260177 - 02/03/06 08:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
in addition you face quite a lot of discrimination and prejudice. there are many people out there who feel that everyone should eat meat and if you don't there is something wrong with you. they will make fun of you and your choices of food every opportunity they get. then you also have to explain to people why you're a vegetarian.




Watching "everybody loves raymond" right now - His mother made a tofu turkey (because of her health concerns) which they all choke down tongue in cheek, and a soy cake which raymond takes a lick of the icing and gags..

At work people laughed at me for eating an avacado with a spoon and talking about my motivations towards vegetarianism - its not fun when 20+ people turn their attention to you while trying to force their pro-meat unaware and unhealthy attitudes.

My stepfather just had an angioplasty, quit smoking and has dramaticly changed his diet - In the past he would accept my choice to move away from meat and drink soy but retort with something like "i love meat i've eaten it all my life." Now he calls me over for dinner with organic foul or fresh non-farmed fish and even tofu, soy, and organic vegetables.

It took him a near death experience to make him understand..

case and point.


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GO OUTSIDE.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: PDU]
    #5260207 - 02/03/06 08:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Meat by itself is not unhealthy. The switch to grain feeding (to fatten) cattle from healthy grass fed is the culprit. Grass fed organic, free range beef is very lean and some of its fat content is now in healthy omega 3 fatty acids. Antibiotics and hormones are another problem that organic beef avoids. You can be very healthy eating this meat. It also contains CLA which is very healthy and helps with weight control and acts as a cancer preventative. CLA is hard if not impossible to find in non red meat foods as far as I know.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Becoming a vegetarian [Re: eligal]
    #5260213 - 02/03/06 08:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I'll be omnivorous to the day I die. I love the taste of meat and I wouldn't change my high meat diet for anything. My meat comes from many different places. Some of it I obtain by killing deer, squirrel, rabbit, feral hogs, dove, and quail. I also like to fish. I participate in every detail of it harvest. I pull the trigger, clean the animal, butcher the meat, and cook it. I also get meat from the grocery store and where they got it I don't care.

I would never hurt an animal for my own pleasure, but I will kill for sport which in turn puts meat in the freezer for me. I'll never feel remorse for doing it either. There is absolutely nothing wrong about it.


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