Home | Community | Message Board

Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9344805 - 12/01/08 05:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Unwarranted generalizations.  How can you speak for most people?

But allowing this assumption, I still don't think that the issue is a matter of complexity.  Which is easier to kill; a hamster or a giant squid?  Familiarity is a key factor here; along with the issue of which animals have been domesticated and have a ritual history of human use.  Complexity is an oversimplification that exhibits no significant correlation to ethical wrong-ness: you would probably feel no qualms killing a human who had just murdered your significant other, for instance.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344813 - 12/01/08 05:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How can you speak for most people?


I'm old, I've talked to them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9344826 - 12/01/08 05:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What's cracking, Methuselah?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344838 - 12/01/08 05:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Twas ever thus"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Irdamage]
    #9344844 - 12/01/08 05:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Agreed :thumbup:

Ethics are preference and apply only to the individual.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Bernackums]
    #9344851 - 12/01/08 05:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:nonono:

Jesus speaks for all people, didn't you know?  And are you saying that whatever I do must be right if it feels right?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9344985 - 12/01/08 05:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
"Twas ever thus"




Hear ye, hear ye, for thy Icelander cometh.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9344990 - 12/01/08 05:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9345342 - 12/01/08 06:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

And are you saying that whatever I do must be right if it feels right?

I'm saying morals and ethics are subjective to each person, my right and wrong is different from yours. That is another of the many things I dislike about Christianity, it implies a universal moral system.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Bernackums]
    #9345356 - 12/01/08 06:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So you're fine with my raping a baby so long as I deem it to be right?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9345376 - 12/01/08 06:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

He never said this dude.:crazy2: He said ethics are subjective and personal. He may not like yours but there are no god given rules about it.

We can agree on a set of morals and laws but not everyone would choose them if they were in charge.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9345636 - 12/01/08 07:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No diet can be more ethical than another as long as you take responsibility for it and own it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #9345665 - 12/01/08 07:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The Dahmer Diet is great for losing fat.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9345704 - 12/01/08 07:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You think that would be healthy? With all of the trash most people eat? Now Icelander eats a good solid diet....an organic one at that, but I would bet he would be too stringy.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 433
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9345742 - 12/01/08 07:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
That's a magical scenario, it doesn't make sense. The brain is big for a reason; atoms have certain size, molecules have certain sizes, and cells certain sizes. You can't possibly shrink it.




It's just an ethical thought experiment, but I'll drop it because the lizard-cockroach comparison works as well.

Quote:

I have had one cockroach and one lizard in my apartment. The cockroach was bigger. They both inhabited the same space, and were equally inconvenient. I killed the cockroach, but put the lizard outside even though it was I could have just as easily killed it. I myself made a value judgment; how can you say there is "no value judgment to be made"? A lizard is more complex, and yes, closer to us, because we are on top of the biological hierarchy, and we can rightfully assess that maybe one organism deserves a little better treatment than the other. I mean, have you ever taken an antibiotic? How did you make the value judgment that you were more important than the bacteria??




I don't think you (or if you did, I don't think most people do) really made an ethical value judgment; rather you were disgusted by the stigmatized cockroach but admiring of the lizard - maybe the lizard is more fun to observe because of its complexity, but does that give you the ability to rank how deserving of good treatment it is?

We use antibiotics without even thinking of them as life because of how conveniently and invisibly they serve us. We don't weigh the value of bacterial life, just do as best serves us, and we continue doing this until we see something behaving like us, which makes some people a little queasy.

In fact one might ethically argue with more strength against eating only plants, in that plants have no capacity for observable reaction to instant death - it's less fair to them (and xenophobic) to deem their deaths as acceptable just because they are more alien to our consciousness and supposed lesser beings.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #9345746 - 12/01/08 07:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A benefit of age.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9345764 - 12/01/08 07:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A few days in a crock pot might help.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 433
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9345899 - 12/01/08 07:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
So you're fine with my raping a baby so long as I deem it to be right?




I don't know if you had this in mind, but this reminds me of excerpts from The Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini:

Quote:

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby.  However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable.  If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life.  This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister...  It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house, rather than her father's home.  Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.




Quote:

It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.




The first time I read them, they were so ridiculous that I laughed aloud, just imagining this highly-respected world leader, using sterile language to create these arbitrary rules to justify his desires.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 10,454
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9345936 - 12/01/08 07:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If we are to believe that killing vegetables is less immoral than killing animals, then there has to be somthing which distinguishes them which makes the killing right in one case, and wrong in another. 

One might say plants do not suffer as animals do.

To that one might say, what is suffering?  Are not all animals destined for death?  Do we know if plants do not suffer?  Perhaps plants do suffer, but we are unaware of how to read their responses to pain and suffering.

Furthermore, how do we know animals suffer?  Is there any way to confirm that they do?  Would not the claim that animals suffer be equally unprovable as saying that plants suffer?

So with that said, how can we know what is best?  Well, I think it would make sense to believe that the optimal diet for our species would be one which would fulfill three things, our appetites, our emotions, and our reason.

As for appetites, our diet is best when it fulfills all of the criteria for keeping us fit and healthy.  Vegetarian diets can achieve this, but many take some getting used to to say the least.  Our teeth are unlike the teeth of many purely herbivorous animals, and are well suited for a range of applications, including eating poultry, meat, and seafood.

In terms of emotions, it is enjoyable to have a diet that satiates the palate, as well as one which fulfills what desires one may have.  Not everyone desires to be a Buddhist monk, and there is much enjoyment to be had for some who partake in meat, moose in particular is somthing I had today, very good, try it and break your vegan ways the happy way.

In terms of reason, our diet needs to be feasible to fulfill.  The most feasible diet would have the least overhead (in terms of land, waste, and operating cost), and the most reward (in terms of people fed, safe operations).  I would argue that an omnivorous diet provides the widest range of options in adverse conditions.  In the case that a season of growing would fail, omnivores would outlive those morally opposed to eating non-vegetative material.  The most versatile always prevails over the specialized in the face of adversity.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9345944 - 12/01/08 07:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure and even their milk may no longer be consumed.  The animal must then be killed as quickly as possible and burned." :shocked::shocked:


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* vegetarianism - dietary practices
( 1 2 3 4 all )
raytrace 4,524 60 03/05/02 05:14 PM
by raytrace
* Vegetarian Animals CherryBomM 1,831 17 12/13/03 02:13 PM
by fireworks_god
* Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
DiploidM 9,404 137 10/31/06 12:02 PM
by Veritas
* Spirituality and Diet
( 1 2 3 4 all )
dmtrypr 4,760 72 12/02/04 04:40 PM
by shanti
* Vegetarianism etc
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
demiu5 7,387 131 09/29/06 09:24 PM
by The_Hobbit
* vegetarian?
( 1 2 all )
fake estate 2,818 33 12/21/07 01:34 PM
by Veritas
* Becoming a vegetarian
( 1 2 all )
lysergicide 2,925 26 02/03/06 08:11 PM
by Ekstaza
* Plant based diet
( 1 2 3 all )
reflectedlight 4,191 59 10/15/03 10:38 AM
by hongomon

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
6,845 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.035 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 17 queries.