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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: mr_kite]
    #9346039 - 12/01/08 08:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That one's a lot like something out of Leviticus. My favorites are the ones where he adds all these random corollaries.

Like: "A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on.  However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm.  He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, but selling the meat to a neighbouring village is reasonable."

Just imagine him sitting at a desk with a pen in his mouth, hemming and hawing over the right time to kill after orgasm, the right people to sell the meat to "reasonably." It cracks me up.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9346095 - 12/01/08 08:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zannennagara said:
Just imagine him sitting at a desk with a pen in his mouth, hemming and hawing over the right time to kill after orgasm, the right people to sell the meat to "reasonably." It cracks me up.




At least he gave it an honest try.  Would you prefer unparalleled anarchy, or not knowing when to kill after orgasm?

Even though I feel the quest to mandate an absolute morality is fatally flawed, the motivation for the attempt is still sincere.


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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: deCypher]
    #9346440 - 12/01/08 09:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Oh sure, the motivation can be sincere - in Khomeini's case, I can't see how he could go to such specific extents without wholeheartedly believing in the morality of his rules - but like you say the fatal flaws of the absolute law create a rigidity that cannot be adapted to better logic or newer information.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9347609 - 12/01/08 11:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You guys are too busy talking beastiality I think my attempt at answering the question of this thread got unnoticed.

"If we are to believe that killing vegetables is less immoral than killing animals, then there has to be somthing which distinguishes them which makes the killing right in one case, and wrong in another.

One might say plants do not suffer as animals do.

To that one might say, what is suffering?  Are not all animals destined for death?  Do we know if plants do not suffer?  Perhaps plants do suffer, but we are unaware of how to read their responses to pain and suffering.

Furthermore, how do we know animals suffer?  Is there any way to confirm that they do?  Would not the claim that animals suffer be equally unprovable as saying that plants suffer?

So with that said, how can we know what is best?  Well, I think it would make sense to believe that the optimal diet for our species would be one which would fulfill three things, our appetites, our emotions, and our reason.

As for appetites, our diet is best when it fulfills all of the criteria for keeping us fit and healthy.  Vegetarian diets can achieve this, but many take some getting used to to say the least.  Our teeth are unlike the teeth of many purely herbivorous animals, and are well suited for a range of applications, including eating poultry, meat, and seafood.

In terms of emotions, it is enjoyable to have a diet that satiates the palate, as well as one which fulfills what desires one may have.  Not everyone desires to be a Buddhist monk, and there is much enjoyment to be had for some who partake in meat, moose in particular is somthing I had today, very good, try it and break your vegan ways the happy way.

In terms of reason, our diet needs to be feasible to fulfill.  The most feasible diet would have the least overhead (in terms of land, waste, and operating cost), and the most reward (in terms of people fed, safe operations).  I would argue that an omnivorous diet provides the widest range of options in adverse conditions.  In the case that a season of growing would fail, omnivores would outlive those morally opposed to eating non-vegetative material.  The most versatile always prevails over the specialized in the face of adversity. "


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9347661 - 12/01/08 11:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

A breatharian diet is the most moral followed by a fruitarian diet - but only fruit that has already fallen from the tree.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9347679 - 12/01/08 11:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How do we know animals suffer? Have you ever had a dog or known a friend's dog? You obtain that information through empathy, just as you do through humans.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9347813 - 12/01/08 11:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"How do we know animals suffer? Have you ever had a dog or known a friend's dog? You obtain that information through empathy, just as you do through humans."

What causes empathy?  Do we feel empathy more for animals which we think are "cuter"?  Do some people at least have this standard?  Is the standard for feeling empathy for a suffering thing constant and universal?

Then why do you think you can use it?


Edited by xFrockx (12/01/08 11:50 PM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9347831 - 12/01/08 11:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Can we not feel empathy even for nonliving objects?  If someone filled the grand canyon with sand and built a stadium i would feel a great deal of empathy for it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put words on the chasm.

I'm not saying we should mistreat animals for no reason, but simply that eating them is hardly an immortal sin.  Its really amoral, who are you to tell a tiger it's a murderer?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9347845 - 12/01/08 11:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Can you define the criteria by which you set your moral standards? I disagree that diets can be more or less moral simply by content.

(what if I eat babies, har har har?)

I don't, find someone who does and ask them if they feel good about it.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9347922 - 12/02/08 12:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Frockx, Id say it makes sense to see it as a dynamic.

basic nervous system ---> consciousness ---> reflexive consciousness---->

I am interested in the idea of caste as opposed to the absolutist concept of the natural right, right and wrong etc. 

See my first post for some of my problems with the natural right.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9347981 - 12/02/08 12:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"Frockx, Id say it makes sense to see it as a dynamic.

basic nervous system ---> consciousness ---> reflexive consciousness---->

I am interested in the idea of caste as opposed to the absolutist concept of the natural right, right and wrong etc.

See my first post for some of my problems with the natural right. "

It sounds like you have your own id, ego, and superego thing going there.

I think I know what you mean by caste, I do believe we all have our own way.  I think that all knowledge is learned, and all actions are lead by knowledge and instinct, both of which we have no control over, but we do have the illusion of control.  We have will, although that will is made and lost in the events that make up our life.


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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9347984 - 12/02/08 12:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

  If someone filled the grand canyon with sand and built a stadium i would feel a great deal of empathy for it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put words on the chasm.

I don't think you are understanding your use of the term empathy.

Quote:


Empathy is the capacity to recognize or understand another's state of mind or emotion




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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Bernackums]
    #9348008 - 12/02/08 12:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"I don't think you are understanding your use of the term empathy."

Oh great, so now I'm being accused of not even knowing what I mean by my own words.  Your definition means nothing to me.  Prove "mind" exists, then we'll talk.


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Offlinebegreen0
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? *DELETED* [Re: xFrockx]
    #9348073 - 12/02/08 12:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by begreen0

Reason for deletion: privacy



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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: begreen0]
    #9348111 - 12/02/08 12:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"I think it just comes down to minimizing suffering. Sure, we'll never be able to eliminate suffering completely...but by choosing to eat less meat (or eliminate it altogether), we are making a notable contribution to the reduction in suffering. "

In my post I asked several questions attacking the view that we even know what suffering is.  I mean, surely we shouldn't be suffocating cattle as they kick and wail, but i think eating absolutely no meat as a moral judgment is limiting for no reason.

Veggies work, Meat works, Grains work, just let it happen is what I say, we can't even say what suffering is.

Let me reiterate:

Who are we to tell tigers they are murderers?


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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9348199 - 12/02/08 12:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Daytripper, you made many good points in your first post, but I'll admit I skipped over it because I wasn't sure how you were relating it to the topic. Can you elaborate on the applicability of castes?


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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9348228 - 12/02/08 12:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
A breatharian diet is the most moral followed by a fruitarian diet - but only fruit that has already fallen from the tree.




I'm curious as to whether anybody believes that it is more ethical to be a fruitarian than it is to be a scavenger.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9348325 - 12/02/08 01:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What about a dirtarian?


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9348644 - 12/02/08 02:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I will do my best to elaborate, but also probably repeat myself a bit.

As I previously said: in this seemingly enlightened stage of history, we have learned to get along, but only by considering ourselves equals. J-P Sartre, as well as I am sure many other philosophers defined humanism as the self's recognition of the other. This is because Self (and therefore self consciousness), is implied by his other.

But the accepted social state we live in is not so. "Equality" is not the self acknowledging and virtuously  respecting his other, it is living in the mutual security of self, because we are equal.

Look at it this way. The chief human ability we have that animals do not, is our discriminating intellect. And in the same way, prejudice is a basic example of human subjectivity. But prejudice and discrimination are deemed wrong, because we are equal (because we are self-conscious).

Again, this is not the self acknowledging the other. It is a pack mentality. Us and them, or as you mentioned in a post a while back, a basic hierarchy - I would say this hierarchy is a simple animalistic food chain.

Right vs Wrong, Good vs. Evil, natural right vs the license to do whatever you will with anything lacking these rights...etc

---------------

Is consciousness absolute? On the evolutionary path, did something just click one day, and suddenly we were self conscious?

If there is some absolute line between me and an ape, I would say the natural right is sensible, and would believe in absolute justice. Consciousness is "us", and the rest is them ; dualistic, impulsive mechanisms. (PS, Thank God!)

But consider that there is no absolute line between me and an ape, that hypothetically speaking, there could be a significantly dumbed down yet conscious being. Say an ape breaks the language barrier, or futuristic aliens land making us the significantly lesser creatures. If this dynamic of consciousness is at all feasible, then I would reject justice, and the pack mentality of self consciousness. (I reject justice.)

But I am being ridiculous right? I am speaking of talking apes and aliens, things that clearly do not exist.

Caste acknowledges the dynamic of evolving life and consciousness. It is the basic reason why Hindu culture is vegetarian. But most importantly, it is an example of the self actually acknowledging and respecting his (different) other.

On the other hand apparently there has apparently been some major problems with inequality in India. Well, go figure. I never said its perfect, only that I am interested.


Edited by daytripper23 (12/02/08 03:07 AM)


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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9348924 - 12/02/08 03:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So is this a suggestion to separate biological levels of complexity into castes?

I guess I don't see the difference between a caste system and an us-and-them hierarchy of consciousness. Within a caste there would probably be many subcastes ignored for the "mutual security of self." Castes are usually rigidly defined, and don't allow transference from birthright - I see an acknowledgment of reincarnation beliefs, but not dynamic evolution, unless I'm misunderstanding.


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