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Invisibletak
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Killing.
    #1989607 - 10/08/03 11:47 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I've heard people say its not a sin to kill at wartime, to defend your country.

I just wanted a quick laugh at this. Okay, okay. Maybe its not completely your fault because you were brainwashed, and commanded to murder by someone else. They may take most of the karma, but people were still killed.

Gangs kill all the time over territory, I dont see what seperates them from the government. They are just smaller scale. Must you be an established member of the UN to be on gods "killing is ok" list?

Just incase no one knew, we live in a world where we are breeded to be killers. I know so many kids who want to be in the military when they grow up. They want to be the good guys, and that is what we are making it out to be.

I dont care what you are fighting for, aslong as you are fighting, you are not a good guy. Whoever can blow the shit out of the most innocent people is not the winner, the only way to win is when both sides win.

That usually means coming to terms with eachother and finding some sort of median. Unfortunately, the path we are choosing seems like it may just get us there, in the fact that all sides will end up with no life.

:x


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Killing. [Re: tak]
    #1989621 - 10/08/03 11:51 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well said!

Here's to peace  :bong:


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OfflineJameZTheNewbie
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Re: Killing. [Re: trendal]
    #1989636 - 10/08/03 12:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

:stoned: i agree killing is killing no matter the reason


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Killing. [Re: tak]
    #1989642 - 10/08/03 12:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

root-ninja-tak said:
Must you be an established member of the UN to be on gods "killing is ok" list?




The UN is usually the one promoting peace and trying to work things out civily... heh, I know that wasn't what you were talking about, but I just had to throw this in here. :grin: Fuck George Bush!
Peace.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Killing. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1989947 - 10/08/03 02:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Like George "Vic" Bush would say: "Killing is my business and business is good"
Anyway, apart of the UN helping people worldwide, the UN is also another wheel of the system, it imposes social and economical systems, the international drug law is an example of such attitude.

MAIA



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Killing. [Re: MAIA]
    #1990081 - 10/08/03 03:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
Like George "Vic" Bush would say: "Killing is my business and business is good"
Anyway, apart of the UN helping people worldwide, the UN is also another wheel of the system, it imposes social and economical systems, the international drug law is an example of such attitude.
 




Yeah, but all I am saying is that it is a lot farther along than the United States or like the Middle East and all of these fucking nut countries.. Europe is feeling pretty fucking good right now. :grin:
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: Killing. [Re: tak]
    #1990298 - 10/08/03 04:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i agree with both sides winning being a necessity to a real victory. So long as one side was defeated, there remains the anger, and the will to overthrow the oppressive and war-waging empire. Eventually, this will turn into a war again. The only way to even hope for lengthened periods of peace, is to win with peace.

Of course, it doesn't look to me as though all Iraqis want peace, and neither do all Americans. However, we can apply our influence on a smaller scale, that will eventually be a huge avalanche. I don't think you can really propogate peace by preaching it though, only by practicing it, and letting others know you aren't afraid to step away from your ego (ego in this case being that which makes you feel the need to fight).

However, when somebody is going to hurt me, or those I love, I don't believe I should sit back. That would be fighting my urge to help and protect, an urge I consider important to listen to.


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Anonymous

Re: Killing. [Re: tak]
    #1990532 - 10/08/03 05:44 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

commanded to murder by someone else.

killing enemy soldiers in time of war is not murder.

Just incase no one knew, we live in a world where we are breeded to be killers.

thanks for clarifying that. the word is "bred" by the way. how are we "bred" to be killers exactly?

I dont care what you are fighting for, aslong as you are fighting, you are not a good guy.

there is nothing wrong with fighting in self-defense or in defense of an innocent third party.

Whoever can blow the shit out of the most innocent people is not the winner

incorrect. you win by killing the people who want to kill you. killing people who would have done no harm to you helps you not one bit.

the only way to win is when both sides win.

if someone wants to kill you, and you want to live, how can both sides win???

That usually means coming to terms with eachother and finding some sort of median.

and when this proves to be impossible?


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Killing. [Re: tak]
    #1990782 - 10/08/03 07:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I dont care what you are fighting for, aslong as you are fighting, you are not a good guy. 




Last night at the Billy Idol show a pervert pulled out his dick and was trying to ruboff on MY wife.I grabbed him by the throat and threw him down and pinned him.Am I a bad guy? What if it were your wife or daughter?
Security then put ME in a choke hold and I spun and elbowed the guy in the ear canal as a second grabbed my arm I then spun and pulled to extend his arm and kicked him inthe armpit.
Am I a bad person for defending my wife and myself from others? Do you make the distinction between fighting to protect oneself or family from perversion and violence and animal predation?
Being a victim is a position I do not care to revisit.
Even the security guys I broke realized that I was in a self protective mode and admitted they should have NOT taken an attack stance with me.
Could I have killed someone? Indeed and without remorse.I live an isolated peaceful lifestyle.I only kill animals for food or to protect my own.I would do no less for my family against a human animal.Am I a thug? or am I an alpha male protecting my family? Fighting is an integral part of human emotion denying it creates stresses which manifest as social illnesses and irrational violence.That said I also think that devolving into physical violence is a tool only for self preservation.
This society is devoid of ritual violence other than voyueristic "sports" hence the squeamish reactions to real fighting.We only feel comfortable with ritualized controled violence done by professional "warriors/gladiators",while most wallow in their own frustrations.I have chosen to embrace my MALE dominant traits as valid.
I would also add I have not HAD to use force in almost 20 yrs( till last night :frown: ) usually I can reason through a situation.But reality is there are many unreasonable people who revel in physical violence,they MUST be answered in kind.It is the lack of peer consequence which fosters most of societies troublemakers.
Chivalry, Honor ,Respect ,self preservation these ARE things worth fighting for but only as a last resort against unreasonable situations.
WR:rasta:
 


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Killing. [Re: tak]
    #1990836 - 10/08/03 07:31 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

First of all, I don't think there's such thing as objective sin. Every imaginable act is justifiable given the situation. Killing, in my mind was perfectly acceptable during WWII in order to end the Holocaust. Pretty much any self defense situation is justified as whiterasta said.


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Offlinephynai
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Re: Killing. [Re: tak]
    #1990930 - 10/08/03 08:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Peace.

I pray on a near constant basis that we may come to some sort of conclusion about our violent conflict in the immediate future. Until this occurs I can only hope we may all have a safe place of residence. It is difficult for me to image the thoughts from a person of the middle east, who could be merely trying to live a life on this earth, possible sitting in sand at a camp or such in his/her homeland when upon walks an armored entourage of alien nationality bearing automatic weaponry. I would shit my pants, and I would run like hell possibly being shot in the process. It seems too much like spaceballs when they were combing the desert, sadly.

root-ninja-tak: I've heard people say its not a sin to kill at wartime, to defend your country.

With all judgments of sin aside, I belive defense of one's own country is crucial; in addition to, respect and adherence to boundary lines. Let the countrymen stay in his county while allowing aid through other means. A handful of people may be needed to travel abroad in respect to negotiation, but the numbers of people we send are staggering to my mind.


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Offlinemoogle
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Re: Killing. [Re: whiterasta]
    #1990955 - 10/08/03 08:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Ideally, killing another is only lawful/good/acceptable under act of necessity, when no other option remains to protect the life of yourself or those you guard -- you don't have to let some scumbag dispatch you from this world. However, practically, when the shit hits the fan, you don't have all the information at your disposal, and when the chaos erupts all you have to rely on are your instincts.

I believe the Dalai Lama is quoted to the following effect, "If someone is shooting at you and you have a gun, it is ok to shoot back." People who are conscripted (by deception or force) and thrown/lead into battle aren't evil murderers -- they are fighting for dear life. Those who abuse their power and influence to cause such massive tragedy carry the greatest amount of fault.

Whiterasta, what happened after you nailed those 3 security guys/perverts? My hopes for this world would warm slightly, if you weren't arrested over the incident. I am also bothered by the trend of people with the physical ability, but without the mettle, to defend theirselves or their own families.

Quote:

First of all, I don't think there's such thing as objective sin.




You may change your mind after someone rapes/murders a member of your family. I'm impressed if you can honestly tell me that such an act isn't an objective sin. Also, you can't say that there can be no objective sin because it's impossible to perceive objectively, because if you can't perceive objectively, how do you know that there are or are not objective sins?

Quote:

Every imaginable act is justifiable given the situation.



(?) Foreseeably you can create a possible scenario to justify the most heinous and depraved act, but this would not disqualify such an act from being an objective sin in those other scenarios, where no justification lies.


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: Killing. [Re: phynai]
    #1990961 - 10/08/03 08:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

:lol: IN THE U.S. WE"RE TOUGHT HOW TO KILL MIDLLE-EASTERN MEN EVER SINCE WE WERE CHILDREN GOING TO SCHEEWWWL :lol: so... its a part of nature life cannot coinside with eachother 100% of the time. We should be honest with ourselfs and be aware that we are born in a country and are raised to be able too kill our enemy at any given time. Thats why Marijuana is illegal and why todays foods make 12 year old girls look desireable to middle aged R&B singers. Besides the point the goverments complain about guns and gangs on the street but they are out there with the same purpose that we are in the middle east. The gangbanger is defending is colors and Bush is defending Christianity, no diffrence. Its part of nature and if you dont wanna kill or be killed then move to Canada..... or something.

Technacly killing in the battlefield is not murder because its legal, murder is the lawful term, but its still killin'


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OfflineGeeno
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Re: Killing. [Re: Spokesman]
    #1991042 - 10/08/03 08:48 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Killin people sucks but you have to do what you have to do.

Edit: When it comes to fighting I think its just kinda fun. I dont start fights with people but I like to fight my friends.


Edited by Geeno (10/08/03 08:51 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Killing. [Re: moogle]
    #1991056 - 10/08/03 08:54 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

nothing is really right or wrong. we're just self-replicating, intelligent bundles of chemicals on the surface of some rock hurtling through space- what we do, or don't do, really doesn't matter in the end. right and wrong are not rules of the universe; they are just something we as humans invent. "right" and "wrong" are social expedients we develop as humans for our group existance. if there were no people, there would be no such thing as "wrong". nor would there be if there were one person on the planet, or two hopelessly seperatad by distance. the idea of things that are "wrong" is something we invent to govern human interactions in groups (2 or more)...

why are groups significant? what is something special about groups of people that does not apply to lone individuals?

one major issue is that of free will. we are all intelligent creatures and we make decisions we believe to be in our best interests. if there were only one human being in the world, or more but no group interaction, this free will, this process by which we decide what's good for us and act on it, would be completely unhindered. because humans have the ability to impose their own will upon eachother, human interaction brings a threat to free will. this can only occur in groups, and it can only be accomplished through force or by fraud.

without force or fraud, an individual is left with complete freedom of will, as he should be, and as he would be if human interaction did not occur.

force however, does exist. there are individuals in the world that will break the peace and seek to impose their will upon others. there are those that would make their interactions with other human beings forcefully destructive of free will.

once force is in motion, the only way to halt it may be through opposing force. if you are to preserve your own free will, or that of others, in the face of force, you sometimes must use force. when force is used in this way, there is nothing improper about it, even if it necessarily entails killing the initiator of the coercion.

*what i think right now*


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Killing. [Re: moogle]
    #1991178 - 10/08/03 09:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Whiterasta, what happened after you nailed those 3 security guys/perverts 



I nailed the pervert and had him pinned when the first guard tried a sleeper hold on me.I did not have a clue who had me so I launched from a one knee crouch while spinning back my elbow into his ear canal that arm was imediatly grabbed by another guard so I had NO time to decipher who was on me so I leaned with the pull then jeked back hard to extend the arm and launched a toe kick to the armpit.
This bought me space to look for my wife and see who was around me.It was about then a couple other dudes from across the building showed up seaching for perv boy and the growing group of guards coming to kick my ass good saw perv boys half hard dick hanging out,while my wife is screaming PERVERT! at full volume.They had us all shuffled off in a minute and once witnesses and the wife said what happened I was not charged( it wouldn't have stood up)but am on probationary status at the venue(BFD!)
You know what capped it off? My wife was standing next to a young teen(13-14?) and the perv was kinda rubbing between them both.And this bitch(the mom) had the gall to yell at my wife for pushing,protectivly, the young girl away from what she turned and saw this creep doing,EVEN AFTER SHE SAW HIM WITH HIS DICK HANGING OUT AND KNEW HE WAS GETTING HIS ROCKS OF RUBBINGOFF ON MY WIFE AND HER DAUGHTER,She was SOOO upset by the "violence".This idiot bitch would rather wash Mr. cream jeans stains off her little girl?.
I am sorry about hurting the security people but putting a sleeper hold on someone is a fight or flight response from me and I hope he gets his balance and hearing back,the other guy should be OK but may need some surgery on his shoulder it looks like I did not crush any blood vessels or nerves in his pit just dislocated it.Perv boy has a concussion,a severely bruised larynx and two broken ribs where I pinned him in the diaphram with my knee.
If I sound somewhat proud,I am I am a 45 yr old man who has had a triple bypass(myocarditis and a fucked up angiogram= heart attack)and have worked the 48% of a heart I was left with till I can acheive 108% cap on a treadmill test and have discovered Psilocybin controls the atrial fibrillation I was left with.After what I have been through,the months of weakness and fear as I recovered,It is gratifying to hold my own in a tight spot,to NOT feel helpless and afraid(and not seize up or weaken and fail).To stand up for my wife and this young teen girl(in spite of her unbelievable "mother") is what MEN were created for,otherwise the weakest would fall prey to the stronger less compassionate "manimals" who share the earth with us
WR:rasta: 


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Anonymous

Re: Killing. [Re: whiterasta]
    #1991210 - 10/08/03 09:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

there is a BIG difference between ego confrontations on the street that leave someone with some broken teeth and the mechanized war machine which hurls thousands of bodies into a battlefield for twisted ideals of PEACE and country.


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InvisibleTheMimeKing
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Re: Killing. [Re: tak]
    #1991820 - 10/09/03 01:52 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Killing is part of what humans are. War can't be stopped as long as more than one human exists on this earth. We can talk about the justification of it all day long, but the fact is, its going to happen all the same. There's no right or wrong in war.


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: Killing. [Re: TheMimeKing]
    #1991945 - 10/09/03 02:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

yeah, a drug deal gone wrong down the corner is a tragedy, a wepons deal gone wrong in the White House is something to wave your flag with pride for!!! :smile: 


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Killing. [Re: Spokesman]
    #1992411 - 10/09/03 07:29 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Survival is the first thing that we concern ourselves with. If our survival is threatened, we need to do whatever is necessary to protect our survival, and not one step further than that.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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