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Offlinedeff
mysticlove
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2996412 - 08/12/04 06:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yes :smile:. That's what I was referring with the old person analogy. They feel that morality is objective because they were raised to believe so. As such, they are reluctant to accept change, especially towards the more evolved younger generations.

And yes, external control is important to the ego for it gives it a face.


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2996430 - 08/12/04 06:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I only used the term to differentiate between evolving over the course of millions of years and evolving ourselves over a shorter period of time via science.

I agree that human actions are natural by default but that's an entirely different subject and has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. ack help


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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2996444 - 08/12/04 06:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Yes :smile:. That's what I was referring with the old person analogy. They feel that morality is objective because they were raised to believe so. As such, they are reluctant to accept change, especially towards the more evolved younger generations.

And yes, external control is important to the ego for it gives it a face.




So yeah, just observe this with wonder and amusment because if we start getting emotional attatched to something you cannot change, then you might be in for a poiuntless ride!

But I know you just want to bring it up, and wanted to spark something for the sake of the topic, which was a great topic!


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: Swami]
    #2996474 - 08/12/04 06:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

This doesn't make sense. Morality is a human idea; it does not exist outside the human mind.




What I was trying to say was that the pursuit of individual morality - the attempt to label things as right and wrong based on one's beliefs - is a good, if not necessary, thing. That was what I meant by "morality itself". I suppose I didn't make that very clear.

It's just that a lot of people's beliefs are inconsistent with their views on morality.

Do you believe that maths exists without humans? I'm sure the principles would still stand. I prefer the utilitarian definition of morality - what is "good" is what promotes the greatest happiness for the greatest number. Without humans, this principle would still make sense. If you take this definition, then I believe morality could exist in the animal kingdom.

Killing two babies for absolutely no reason is worse than killing one baby for absolutely no reason, isn't it? If this was baby lions, or something, that would still be true.


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Offlinedeff
mysticlove
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deafpanda]
    #2996666 - 08/12/04 07:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"What I was trying to say was that the pursuit of individual morality - the attempt to label things as right and wrong based on one's beliefs - is a good..."

You just labelled the labelling process as good. Not that there's anything wrong with that ( :wink: ), I just found it interesting.

"Killing two babies for absolutely no reason is worse than killing one baby for absolutely no reason, isn't it? If this was baby lions, or something, that would still be true."

No. It's still just energy transformation on a basic level. The idea of applying the label does not exist outside of your own perception. So to you, yes it is "worse", but on an objective level 'worse' does not exist.

And I don't think people use the idea of happiness for morality. Take drugs for example. They can make you happy yet still be regarded by others as a "bad" thing.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2996734 - 08/12/04 07:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You just labelled the labelling process as good. Not that there's anything wrong with that (  ), I just found it interesting.




Yeah I know :smile: I was reluctant to, but I couldn't think of anything better.

Quote:

No. It's still just energy transformation on a basic level. The idea of applying the label does not exist outside of your own perception. So to you, yes it is "worse", but on an objective level 'worse' does not exist.





But I am saying that  given  that what is good is what promotes the greatest happiness for the greatest number, then killing two babies is objectively worse than killing one.

My point was really that it all depends on what theory of morality you subscribe to.

Morality certainly doesn't exist as a property of an action, as you say.  We can, however, label actions as good or bad depending on various things.  So if we could all agree on what morality is, then morality can exist without humans, as the "calculations" (or whatever you want to call them) that determine whether something is good or bad would still hold true regardless of human presence.

Quote:

And I don't think people use the idea of happiness for morality. Take drugs for example. They can make you happy yet still be regarded by others as a "bad" thing. 




Yep, my views on morality do not agree with others' views.  I was just saying which theory I believe makes morality a subject worth exploring - I think that the others make little sense.


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Offlinedeff
mysticlove
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deafpanda]
    #2996766 - 08/12/04 07:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, just making sure you didn't mean everyone regards things that make them or others happy as morally right.

The very fact that everyone has their own definition of morality shows the lack of objective morality, which I why I think such calculations would not exist without human (or other subjective lifeform) involvement.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2996780 - 08/12/04 07:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, that's right. In most cases, when people call something good or bad, they mean "yay" or "boo" - that is they are just expressing how something makes them feel.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deafpanda]
    #2996811 - 08/12/04 07:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think a lot of the time it's more of a case of what they think the general populace regards as good or bad.

Take cheating on your wife for example. If we were born into this world without having our opinions dictated to us (ie as children, in the media, everywhere) would this still be considered a "bad" thing? Sure you could say that it makes your wife sad, but that's only because we are taught the act of marriage, and told what makes others happy/sad. If we use a completely fresh perspective (unaltered from past events or teachings), I think most things would seem neutral.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2997690 - 08/12/04 11:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

As such, they are reluctant to accept change, especially towards the more evolved younger generations.

Ah, yes, the more evolved younger generation. Funny, there was not a single school shooting that I ever heard of while growing up. I guess the incredible murder rate increase over the last few decades is due to positive evolutionary forces.

Hitchhike today? You must be joking. From to love and trust to paranoia in one generation, a sure sign of advancement.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: Swami]
    #3000505 - 08/13/04 01:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Swami you must know the trends of evolution enough to know we wouldn't unevolve through the generations. The feelings you have towards the younger generation is only because they differ from yours when you were that age. Your perception of the change in trends from love and trust to paranoia are only applicable to your subjective view, just the same as "morality", which is what this whole thread is about.

I'm not saying every younger person is more evolved or smarter than older people, just that if you could take an average, you would notice a very slight increase after each succeeding generation.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #3000621 - 08/13/04 02:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Your perception of the change in trends from love and trust to paranoia are only applicable to your subjective view...

Murder rates and the presence of school metal detectors are hardly subjective.


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Offlinedeff
mysticlove
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: Swami]
    #3000844 - 08/13/04 03:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No, they aren't. But considering school shootings as a "bad" thing clearly is...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #3000999 - 08/13/04 03:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

LOL! OK you win this round.


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