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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Is evolution still being debated???
    #1089148 - 11/26/02 09:59 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

I was just reading a few other threads where people actually debated whether or not evolution was fact or fiction.  I realize there are a lot of things on these boards that cannot be proven, but evolution is about as certain as the world not being flat.  The evidence is overwhelming (from fossils to variations in species based on their environmental conditions).

Anyway, I was just wondering if this was something that was still commonly debated?  I didn't realize it was.  (Remember, the Big Bang theory is not the same thing as evolution, although evolution is necessary piece of the Big Bang theory).  :crazy: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Offlinerommstein2001
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1089360 - 11/26/02 11:28 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

actually, there is overwhelming evidence in almost all theories... i think we exist simply because we think we do....


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1089378 - 11/26/02 11:43 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

As a programmer, I have developed sophisiticated genetic algorithms so I understand the power of random mutation and cross-breeding.

However, there are some very large pieces of the evolutionary puzzle missing. Many here may be surprised that I question the theory - not that it happens, but the pressure that drives it.

It would take too long to go into at this time.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (11/27/02 02:01 AM)

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1089496 - 11/27/02 12:27 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

yeah but that rock still exists, and it doesn't think it does.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1089566 - 11/27/02 12:45 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

It exists because rommstein thinks it does. And so do you...

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1089588 - 11/27/02 12:55 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Evolution?

I can transform myself in an instant into another totally different life form and back again without eaven noticing before I begin to say anything.

What is Evolution?

(don't answer)


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1089610 - 11/27/02 01:00 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Well, like any theory, evolution cannot be proven 100%.

There's a shitload of evidence to back it up. The only alternative theory that I've heard is "a magical man in the sky made us appear out of nowhere".

These morons tell us "evolution is only a theory". Try and use this against their idea, and you're told that what they believe in is absolutely true. How do they know? Well, they feel it. Also they know because they know. If they know it's true, then it's true. Why? They KNOW.

Another funny thing is when these people accuse logical thinkers of circular or dogmatic thinking. Why are they against these things? They are the very foundation of their position.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Phluck]
    #1089617 - 11/27/02 01:02 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Talky talky talky........no more talky.

A teacher to his pupil-

"Don't talk it- draw it!"


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Posts: 19,058
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1089668 - 11/27/02 01:17 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Yes Master  :grin: 


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Murex]
    #1089738 - 11/27/02 01:46 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

what if its a speech class?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Phluck]
    #1089781 - 11/27/02 02:03 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

The only alternative theory that I've heard is "a magical man in the sky made us appear out of nowhere".

It is funny that when I questioned many of the tenets of Neo-Darwinism on one board, I was instantly branded as a Creationist. Most here that know me would find that laughable.

My point is that is that those are not the only options. It is not a matter of choosing Darwin or God.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (11/27/02 02:19 AM)

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OfflineMurex
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Posts: 3,599
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Swami]
    #1089791 - 11/27/02 02:08 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Words are for the unevolved.

I'm shutting up now.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1089795 - 11/27/02 02:09 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Of course evolution exists, all things evolve.

But that doesn't mean they weren't created first.

I believe in Creation and Evolution simultaneously.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1089809 - 11/27/02 02:14 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

I believe in Creation and Evolution simultaneously.

That's okay, i believe in free will and determinism simultaneously.....(pls don't ask me to explain right NOW) :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1089820 - 11/27/02 02:22 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

explain that for us in a few minutes, will you? you mean like a free-willed-rat-in-a-maze kinda thing?

The maze holds back its free-will, but the free-will is still there; only limited to certain things? Its determined that the rat will get through, but as to how or how long it will take, or which way it will take or whatever..... its up to the rat.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (11/27/02 02:23 AM)

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1089828 - 11/27/02 02:28 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Strumpling :smile: i will explain, (i fully understand the 2 concepts seem incongrous) only not right at this minute, i'm tired and need sleep(it's almost 5:00 am here) have a GR8 night :wink: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1089832 - 11/27/02 02:29 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

ok man goodnight :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1090671 - 11/27/02 09:57 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Although I personally don't believe in creationism, I couldn't agree more with the fact that it's possible for both to exist simultaneously. That's why I made clear to distinguish Big Bang from evolution. Few argue with evolution, but many still argue how things came into existance in the 1st place.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1090682 - 11/27/02 10:03 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

"there is overwhelming evidence in almost all theories"

That's true, except for the theories about God, the soul, the afterlife, etc...

"i think we exist simply because we think we do"

I would agree with you that that IS overwhelming evidence (how could we think if we didn't exist?)


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Swami]
    #1090697 - 11/27/02 10:12 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

"It would take too long to go into at this time."

I'd really interested to learn about the missing links.  I don't argue that they exist because you've proven to me that you're a pretty smart, knowledgeable guy from your other posts.  But how about a short description of what they are if not a detailed explanation?  Any good web links???  :grin: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Offlinerommstein2001
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1090812 - 11/27/02 11:01 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

i meant you exist because i believe... i am basically a god... the rock exists because of me...


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1090848 - 11/27/02 11:20 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

No the rock is a "rock" and has "rockly meaning" because of you - it would still be there if you were dead, it just wouldn't be a "rock," in my view..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (11/27/02 11:20 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1091052 - 11/27/02 12:46 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

The riddle of origins is not as easy to solve as some would have us to believe. The 'evidence' you are talking about is interpreted as being the reason we exist. There are other interpretations of the data.

If you are well versed in this I have a little puzzle for you to solve. To date, though there have been quite a few answers to it none of them were correct. I have been waiting to read this thread since you first posted it and only now got a chance to read it.

Here is a link to an earlier thread.

Read it and when you can solve it you can claim that which no one else can claim.

Looky looky

I am considering showing why some of the answers are wrong but haven't got around to it yet.

Enjoy!

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: ]
    #1091121 - 11/27/02 01:13 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Here is a link to an earlier thread.  Read it and when you can solve it you can claim that which no one else can claim.

Good link Mr Mushrooms!  I really like the fact that you attempt to use science and logic to try and prove a point.  I'll definitely respond to that thread soon (but for now I'm getting ready to head out on a Thanksgiving trip).  :grin: 

Edit:  One more point - I didn't mean to debate "origins" in this thread, only "evolution".  While some may argue that evolution first began from earth and water, I didn't mean to go quite that far back; I only meant to say that species are changing with time.  At any rate, the link you gave IS about "evolution", and I look forward to analysing that and replying soon. 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (11/27/02 01:20 PM)

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1091445 - 11/27/02 03:19 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

i believe in free will and determinism simultaneously

Me too.  :wink: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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OfflineRemy
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1091611 - 11/27/02 04:47 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

It is quite clear that evolution exsists. However, the idea that evolution is survival of the fittest, and is based upon a bunch of random mutations is ludacris. I take the belief that there are concious forces (sub-particles) acting upon the evolution of a species. Organisms adapt to their surroundings and habitats, a mutation doesn't just randomly occur and whichever organisms had the mutation survive. Instead, there is a subconcious force working everywhere in the universe. How else can something evolve to disguise itself almost perfectly in its enviroment (don't tell me a stickbug is a result of random mutations).

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Swami]
    #1092147 - 11/27/02 08:12 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

"My point is that is that those are not the only options."

What are the other options?

We know for a fact that evolution exists in at least a small scale. It has been observed.

Like I said, evolution as our origin has not been proven, but I haven't been provided with any alternative other than creationism. Are you holding out on us?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1092235 - 11/27/02 08:36 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

How Evolution Works
I like HSW... :grin:
HELPFULL. :cool:
Holes in the Theory
 


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Anonymous

Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1093164 - 11/28/02 02:34 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Nice link! :smile:

I am actually surprised that someone hasn't posted a link to TalkCrap.com.

Here is a more advanced website that shows lots of flaws in the "theory" of evolution.

Check this out!

Enjoy! :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: ]
    #1093270 - 11/28/02 04:52 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Here is a more advanced website that shows lots of flaws in the "theory" of evolution.

And adds even more of it's own.

if something cannot live, it obviously cannot evolve
Whenever someone uses the term "obviously" in their statement it is a sign of a weak argument. If evolution of non-living matter may be expressed as self-organization and the movement of simple to more complex compounds and structures, then his statement "obviously" falls flat. Galaxies and solar systems are highly evolved elemental systems.

So, when all is said and done, the evolutionist finds himself right back where he started. The naturalistic beginnings of life on Earth are impossible...
Umm, I am here writing and reading this which speaks highly against impossibility. Just because the author of that statement does not understand how life arose does not grant him license to stamp it as impossible.

(Regarding the Law of Biogenesis: life arises only from life) It was Virchow who documented that cells do not arise from amorphous matter, but instead come only from pre-existing cells.
Virchows experiments were not done billions of years ago when conditions on Earth wer not even remotely similar in pressure, heat and chemical composition as today and say absoultely nothing about the origin of life only the continuation of cellular life. (Can you say "strawman"?)

Then lots of cool mathemetics are used to prove the impossibility of life arising sponataneously.
Once again, these arguments are applied to our limited knowledge of how complex amino acids and proteins may form in such a way as to replicate. They may be overlooking some vital and as yet unknown factor in the same way that a 17th century scientist would look at a TV and claim it to be an impossible invention.

All posturing aside, the VERY SAME Creationist mathematics could be used to prove the non-existence of God.

It is not superficial; to teach, as creationists do, that design implies a Designer.
Snowflakes are designed without a designer by chemical and thermodynamic laws.

There is too much to respond to, but in summation, poking real or artificial holes in evoultionary theory does NOT make a case for Creationism. This is critical to understand. Even IF evolutionary theory completely collapses, Creationsim must stand on it's own positive merits of which there are NONE! The whole argumeht behind Creationism is one of total ignorance.

"We do not understand how this possibly could have happened, therefore we claim the First Cause as God."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (11/28/02 04:58 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Swami]
    #1093466 - 11/28/02 10:07 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Good heavens man!  Do you mean to say there are things you disagree with in the website and that there might be a few flaws in it?

I am stunned.  And here I thought the entire thing was Gospel! :grin:

Read the rebuttal to TalkCrap's 29 "proofs" for evolution.  I find it most convincing.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving and know you are thought of!

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Remy]
    #1094344 - 11/28/02 04:27 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

*ludicrous*

Actually I agree with you that mutation isn't completely random. I watched a Discovery Channel special about people that live at high altitudes (15,000+ft) and it said that the human body takes about 3 generations to completely adjust to these altitudes. This implies that people's bodies will evolve to their surrounding, in a way that ISN'T random (EVERYONE's body adjusts). However, I'm not sure I'd use the words "subconcious force" to describe this, as I really don't know what that means.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: ]
    #1094400 - 11/28/02 04:59 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Seems that too many on both sides of the argument are more interested in protecting their views than in further discovery wherever it may lead.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: ]
    #1094907 - 11/28/02 10:42 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

I mutated into a danm Mantis. I got theze stupid fucking arms that can't pick up anything.......it really sucks. I wish I had mutated into a squid or something.

:crazy:



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (11/28/02 10:42 PM)

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is evolution still being debated??? [Re: Remy]
    #1095613 - 11/29/02 08:14 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Instead, there is a subconcious force working everywhere in the universe.

That damn reptilian demiurge...  :ooo: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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