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OfflineSeussA
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Legislating Moral Values?
    #2340419 - 02/16/04 10:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I have been reading about all the Gay Marriage stuff in the news lately and am puzzled. I don't understand the people that are against it. I can usually see both sides of an argument, but in this case I cannot. Other than, "It is morally wrong", what is the reason not to allow gay couples to marry? I simply don't get it.

The only argument that I hear from the conservative side is that "marriage is between a man and a woman under God". I was always taught that it was between two people that were in love with each other that wanted to spend their lives together. If this is indeed the only reason, is this not a conflict of church and state?

All of this leads to a bigger question. Why must people legislate moral values? What good does it do if we force everybody to lead moral lives? Just because a prisoner can't rob a bank doesn't mean that he isn't a bank robber. Do the law makers really believe that God cares more about what we do rather than what is in our hearts? Why can we not learn from God's example... we were given the freedom to screw up by God... and yet we feel that we are wise enough to decide what is proper and what is not... and to force others to live by what we decide?


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2340432 - 02/16/04 10:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible. You can't reason with nuts like these. Give it up.

And I don't think bank robbing is illegal just because stealing is considered bad. It's more a matter of convenience. I certainly don't think people who steal are more evil than those who don't, but I won't let anybody run of with my stuff just like that. I might need it.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2340483 - 02/16/04 11:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

> Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible.

But where in the bible does it say, "Man shall outlaw all sin and judge other men that do sin."? I still don't get it...


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2340514 - 02/16/04 11:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

> Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible.

No, just "gay sex = sin". You can drop "satan".

The bible doesn't say "Man shall outlaw all sin and judge other men that do sin." But the bible does say "render unto ceaser that which belongs to ceaser." (Sp?)

In other words, we're supposed to obey man-made laws as well as God's laws.

I think the government has to legislate morality because otherwise people will be bad. I don't believe that someone who steals is a good person.

Look at these forums. If allowed to go unchecked, people will be rude. So they have to be moderated.

Same in life. If there are no laws in place, telling people what "not" to do, they will do it. Still do it, like stealing, even when told not to.

Muhurgle: "I certainly don't think people who steal are more evil than those who don't"

Why do you say that, Muhurgle?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineAtomisk
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2340579 - 02/16/04 12:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

seems to me that difference breeds fear into the weak, and the fear breeds hatred


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2340643 - 02/16/04 12:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Muhurgle: "I certainly don't think people who steal are more evil than those who don't"

Why do you say that, Muhurgle?


Because that's what I think :smile:

There is no universal metric for good or evil. Morality is arbitrary and practical.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2340666 - 02/16/04 12:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think we had this discussion elsewhere, once before. Not you and me, but this forum.

I guess I still don't understand how it is not wrong to steal. How someone who steals is just as good a person as someone who doesn't steal.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Atomisk]
    #2340679 - 02/16/04 12:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Atomisk said:
seems to me that difference breeds fear into the weak, and the fear breeds hatred




If we allow gay marriages, the whole world will turn gay, and we can't allow that!  :noway:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2340684 - 02/16/04 12:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
> Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible.
No, just "gay sex = sin".  You can drop "satan".




But sin is caused by Satan. See, when you are in a weak moment and you do something "bad", it wasn't your doing, it was Satan overpowering you! Blame it on the nonexistant devil and don't feel guilty about what you did!  :rolleyes: 

Quote:


In other words, we're supposed to obey man-made laws as well as God's laws.




Wait a minute... God has laws? Where? What determines what is a law mandated by God or not?

Quote:


I think the government has to legislate morality because otherwise people will be bad.  I don't believe that someone who steals is a good person. 




And being gay and having the right to marriage is bad?

Quote:


Look at these forums.  If allowed to go unchecked, people will be rude.  So they have to be moderated. 




As long as Trendal doesn't show up at my doorstep saying I can't marry who I want to marry, then there isn't a problem. :wink:

Quote:


Same in life.  If there are no laws in place, telling people what "not" to do, they will do it.  Still do it, like stealing, even when told not to.





Is it enough to tell a child not to do something? Does "punishing" them make them stop their "evil" ways? Or is it just a case of a child not understanding why they shouldn't do these things, and the solution is to bring them to a point of understanding?
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2340696 - 02/16/04 12:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's wrong because any society which thought that it was right wouldn't get as far as one which thinks it is wrong. It's merely a practical convention.

Gay sex on the other hand, isn't impractical to anyone. In fact, if you're really disgusted by gays you should be very open towards gay marriages. If being gay is a genetic trait, less taboo around gayness will probably lead to less gays in the long run. Everybody wins.


--------------------
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Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2340717 - 02/16/04 01:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Frog said:
> Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible.
No, just "gay sex = sin".  You can drop "satan".




But sin is caused by Satan. See, when you are in a weak moment and you do something "bad", it wasn't your doing, it was Satan overpowering you! Blame it on the nonexistant devil and don't feel guilty about what you did!  :rolleyes: 




:lol:  Well, then, it should go like this:

satan = Gay sex = sin

Quote:

Quote:


In other words, we're supposed to obey man-made laws as well as God's laws.




Wait a minute... God has laws? Where? What determines what is a law mandated by God or not?




The 10 Commandments are still viable, last I heard.  :rolleyes:

Quote:

Quote:


I think the government has to legislate morality because otherwise people will be bad.  I don't believe that someone who steals is a good person. 




And being gay and having the right to marriage is bad?




I wasn't referring to gay marriage.  I was referring to the general question, "why does the government have to legislate morality".  I don't know, right now, what I believe or think with regard to gay marriages.  I haven't thought too much about it. 

Quote:

Quote:


Same in life.  If there are no laws in place, telling people what "not" to do, they will do it.  Still do it, like stealing, even when told not to.





Is it enough to tell a child not to do something? Does "punishing" them make them stop their "evil" ways? Or is it just a case of a child not understanding why they shouldn't do these things, and the solution is to bring them to a point of understanding?
Peace.




I don't understand what you mean by this. 

If the government enacts a law telling gay people that they can't get married, the gay people can go look up the reason for the law.  I don't see how a law against gay marriage is "punishment", anyways.  At least, not in the strict sense of the word.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2341061 - 02/16/04 02:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Seuss, I share the same confusion...is the only argument against gay marriage preaching that it doesn't mold according to Judeo-Christian values?

EDIT: Should any religious values be taken into consideration during legislation?


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


Edited by viaggio (02/16/04 02:36 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2341161 - 02/16/04 02:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

> I think the government has to legislate morality because otherwise people will be bad. I don't believe that someone who steals is a good person.

I'm not talking about things like stealing or killing others. I am talking about things that I do in my home that is nobody elses business. Why should the government care if I drink alone at home... or if I want to live with/have sex with/marry somebody of the same sex... or if I want to stay up past midnight... or if I want to skip church on Sunday? If what I am doing doesn't adversely effect other people, they why must the government stilll feel obligated to stick their nose in my business? I just don't understand.

I read a quote by one of the Congressmen that was opposed to the gay marriage thing... Mr. Frist I beleive. He said something like, "It should not be up to the courts to decide the fate of marriage. I will do whatever I can to save the sanctity of this union between a man and a woman." How two-faced can we be? It isn't up to the courts, but it is fine for congress to get involved? I don't get it....

If the gay marriage thing is a hangup on discussion, put drug use or sex after midnight in there instead. The concept is the same. The government should not have a right to dictate moral values. Common law is a different matter... don't steal, don't kill, etc... In these cases, the government is protecting the rights of another. Telling me that I can't marry the person that I want to doesn't protect anybody. I also have no problem with the government protecting those that cannot protect themselves, such as children... but leave consenting and resopnsible adults to themselves to decide their own fate. If what I am doing is unjust, unholy, immoral, and wrong... then let me atone for my sins when my time comes.

> In other words, we're supposed to obey man-made laws as well as God's laws.

Great, then let the Catholics obey Catholic law. Let the Christians object the laws of their churches. But these faiths should not try to legislate their church morals (laws) upon the masses. Seperate church and state. Where does it say in the American Indian bible that all American Indians must follow the laws of man as well as God?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2341227 - 02/16/04 03:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I still don't know what the answer is. I wish someone would come and post why the government would legislate against same-sex marriages. What purpose it serves.

I used to go to church. I can "guess" what the argument is, but I think this is a good one to ask my guru about.

IMO, this is along the same lines as the abortion debate, although I know the argument in support of the government-banning of abortion is that the taking of a human life is involved.

But the idea is that we should each decide for ourselves how we want to live our lives, as long as we're not hurting anyone else. I think people are still afraid of homosexuality.

>>If what I am doing is unjust, unholy, immoral, and wrong... then let me atone for my sins when my time comes.

Exactly.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2341357 - 02/16/04 03:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
The 10 Commandments are still viable, last I heard.  :rolleyes:





And these are God's laws? How did they become God's laws? Who said so? I'll start decreeing laws as God's soon too, and everyone will HAVE to accept them as God's.

Quote:


Is it enough to tell a child not to do something? Does "punishing" them make them stop their "evil" ways? Or is it just a case of a child not understanding why they shouldn't do these things, and the solution is to bring them to a point of understanding?
Peace.




What I mean about this is that setting a law on such ISN'T going to have much of an effect. Hell, it makes people want to do it more and creates ALL sorts of further problems. You set a law, you have to enforce it. We see where this goes with the drug thing, and it is completely insane.

Of course, what better way for the government to get rich, selling the stuff that they banned in the first place in order to have money that isn't marked, and then employing all sorts of people to bust the people they are selling it to.. but THAT is off topic.

Anyways, I think we all see that setting a law on something that they have no business setting isn't going to stop what they "want" stopped.

What IS the way? Hmm.. I dunno.... how about education? If you want someone to not do something, you explain to them WHY they shouldn't do it. (and, in the case of drugs, since their reasons are baseless, they obviously don't educate on that one.. only spread propaganda).

Wow.. education.. who would have thought? Anyways, as no one is being adversely effected by gay marriage or drugs but the people involved in both, there is no problem and should be no legislation.

What I want to hear is a GOOD reason why either SHOULD be banned, and it needs to be a reason that respects the seperation of church and state, which obviously ISN'T seperated...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2341416 - 02/16/04 03:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Conservatism runs strong in america. Hell i wonder if some of these old guys in the government dont go home and put their pilgrim out fits on. They are getting too upset because it disturbs their view of morality, and they say that their morality is based around one faith. Can anyone confirm that they said this? Cause if Mr. Bush or whoever did, they will be facing an infringement on the consitution. they cant make a debate because they say, " o we believe this, so everyone else has to do because of our belief systems"... thats crossing the line.

What IS the point of keeping gay's from getting married? I dont really give a shit whether they get married or not, but i dont think the government should be allowed to say if they do or not. Its really shitty to know that their are so many people stuck in the past. Its a big efffin mess.


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What?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2341431 - 02/16/04 03:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Frog said:
The 10 Commandments are still viable, last I heard.  :rolleyes:





And these are God's laws? How did they become God's laws? Who said so? I'll start decreeing laws as God's soon too, and everyone will HAVE to accept them as God's.




Um, I didn't decree anything.  The bible states that God gave the 10 Commandments to the Jews, in order for them to know what to do and what not to do.

Quote:

Quote:


Is it enough to tell a child not to do something? Does "punishing" them make them stop their "evil" ways? Or is it just a case of a child not understanding why they shouldn't do these things, and the solution is to bring them to a point of understanding?
Peace.




What I mean about this is that setting a law on such ISN'T going to have much of an effect. Hell, it makes people want to do it more and creates ALL sorts of further problems. You set a law, you have to enforce it. We see where this goes with the drug thing, and it is completely insane.




So you think that if same-sex marriages are disallowed, more people will want to marry someone of the same sex???  :grin:

Quote:

Of course, what better way for the government to get rich, selling the stuff that they banned in the first place in order to have money that isn't marked, and then employing all sorts of people to bust the people they are selling it to.. but THAT is off topic.




I don't think the government is going to get any money for "not" allowing people of the same sex to marry each other.  I think the government is just withholding a privilege from homosexuals. 

Quote:

What I want to hear is a GOOD reason why either SHOULD be banned, and it needs to be a reason that respects the seperation of church and state, which obviously ISN'T seperated...
Peace.




I've decided that I think that same-sex marriages are private matters, and none of the government's business.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2341530 - 02/16/04 04:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Um, I didn't decree anything.  The bible states that God gave the 10 Commandments to the Jews, in order for them to know what to do and what not to do.




I didn't say you did. haha. What I am calling into question is the validation of these laws of God and why they hold more stock because they have been decreed "God's laws". (this has nothing to do with what laws they are or how reasonable they are, by the way)

Quote:


So you think that if same-sex marriages are disallowed, more people will want to marry someone of the same sex???  :grin:




Could definitely be... hehe. More likely, though, is that more people are going to lose respect for their government, not trust it, and could even end up seeking to harm people associated with it...

Quote:


I don't think the government is going to get any money for "not" allowing people of the same sex to marry each other.  I think the government is just withholding a privilege from homosexuals. 




That was about the drug thing, sorry. hehe

Quote:

I've decided that I think that same-sex marriages are private matters, and none of the government's business.




I know what YOU decided, I just want someone to show up and give me a good reason. You can even play the Devil's Advocate if ya'll like. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2341584 - 02/16/04 04:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I can play devil's advocate, but if someone comes on here and doesn't realize I'm playing devil's advocate, you have to beat 'em up for me, k?

:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2341624 - 02/16/04 04:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

*clears throat*

Gay marriage is wrong, for the following reasons:

It says in the bible that homosexuality is wrong. It's a sin. Therefore, people of the same sex shouldn't get married.

If the government allows same-sex marriage, it's just as if they are condoning a sin. We are a "christian", God-loving country. We built this country on the bible. We can't condone same-sex marriage because it's against God.

Also, marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman. The sanctity of marriage should be maintained, and can only be sanctified if between a man and a woman, not between people of the same sex. For the government to condone marriage between 2 people of the same sex makes a mockery of the sanctity of marriage.

Additonally, if the government sanctions marriage, what will our children think? Do we want our children to grow up to be gay??? If children think it's okay to marry two people of the same sex, our children will become gay!

I think it's right for the government to make laws against people of the same sex marrying each other. Marriage was created by God in order for two people of the opposite sex to enter a union together, with his blessing. If homosexuality is a sin, then it can't be blessed by God, and the government shouldn't condone it.

I'm looking forward to your votes in the upcoming election...

Oh, wait, never mind. *wipes brow*. Forgot what I was doing for a minute.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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