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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2342688 - 02/16/04 08:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Yeah, it's just too bad the declaration is a joke now.

And Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, etc.. were NOT christians.




Well, SOMEBODY believed in God. Go read the Declaration yourself! I copied and posted part of it!

(And will everyone keep in mind, I was playing devil's advocate, pursuant to fireworks' suggestion, because no one was coming on and saying why the government should legislate against same sex marriages. I don't really think that way.)


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342719 - 02/16/04 08:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Right before he was crucified under pontias pilate :wink: . I wonder what he would have thought if he knew that the emperor was going to send his cronies to kill him. What did jesus do wrong? he was a heretic, he went against the state, so they killed him. But sadly our world is filled with this bitter irony...

Who is to say that a life that does not hurt another should not be allowed to be lived? Is that  after all, in a sense, killing that person in one form or another? Killing their spirit?


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What?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2342755 - 02/16/04 08:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, that was Jesus' karma. And, he had to fulfill prophesy.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2342809 - 02/16/04 08:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If we are a quote christian nation unquote than the 10 commandments would be the first and foremost laws. I understand that you conceded that the ten commandments weren't the law of the land. You also presented an impressive array of statistics that showed that the US was 85% christian and that Utah, the most Christian state, Was 79.6% christian. This is truly awe inspiring.

We are NOT NOT NOT a christian nation.

You have done a great job as a Devil's advocate. Or not. I've loved every minute of it. Psst, it's Caesar, but we knew who you meant


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342818 - 02/16/04 08:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If we are a quote christian nation unquote than the 10 commandments would be the first and foremost laws.  I understand that you conceded that the ten commandments weren't the law of the land.  You also presented an impressive array of statistics that showed that the US was 85% christian and that Utah, the most Christian state, Was 79.6% christian.  This is truly awe inspiring.

We are NOT NOT NOT a christian nation.

You have done a great job as a Devil's advocate.  Or not.  I've loved every minute of it.  Psst, it's Caesar, but we knew who you meant




I didn't "concede" because I never made that statement in the first place. 

And on the Christian thing...are we just dabbling with semantics here???  I realize my error, if so, and I will conced this much, perhaps:

We are not a Christian nation, but a nation comprised mainly of Christians.  :razz: :lol:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342919 - 02/16/04 09:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah verily and it is so


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2343216 - 02/16/04 10:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Quote:

Shroomism said:
Yeah, it's just too bad the declaration is a joke now.

And Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, etc.. were NOT christians.




Well, SOMEBODY believed in God. Go read the Declaration yourself! I copied and posted part of it!



Yes, they believed in God. That does not make them Christians. The above mentioned founding fathers were Deists, who believed that God set the universe in motion with the laws of physics to guide it. They did not believe in the Bible or in Jesus's divinity. In fact, during his presidency, Jefferson wrote a book in which he denied the divinity of Christ.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2343235 - 02/16/04 10:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting thoughts.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblesakura
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Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2343415 - 02/16/04 11:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Wow! This could get explosive (remember to be nice everyone!)

As a "Christian", I don't feel that any government has the right to legislate morality. This is very much a personal issue between a person and their own Higher Power.

As far as 'eroding morals' is concerned... I don't think that legislation (or the lack of it) has any real impact on public morality (How many people do you know who have changed their opinions regarding marijuana because it has been legislated against).

Definately, in America, the 'Puritan Past' still has a major impact on modern policy decisions. I don't feel comfortable with this. Other western nations have moved further to the left in this regard (for example, England, Australia and the European Nations) and take a 'humanistic' rather than a 'Scriptural' approach much of the time.

Also, I don't think that it is really necessary to flame the scriptures in order to make your point on this issue. I don't really understand the pre-occupation a lot of members have with this (I have yet to read a thread violently denouncing Buddhism or the Sacred Hindu Texts...)


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Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2344560 - 02/17/04 06:32 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you everybody for your input. I sat for a while and thought about this last night and came to a conclusion. I can identify two fears that would cause somebody to vote against same sex marriages:

1) I am afraid that by allowing same sex marriages, I am giving up a control that the government has over the people. If I let this slide, what next... free love, legal drugs, world peace. We can't have that... no profits there.

2) Thinking about two people of the same sex together gives me the willies. I don't want to risk thinking about it, so I will outlaw it instead. What? My job is to represent all the people, even if I don't agree with them? Screw that, that type gives me the willies.

...and a third case, though not fear:

3) I have a really big ego. I can not be wrong. Bow down and lick my feet 'cause I'm in congress and I know what is good for you. If I can't legislate you into heaven, I will fry you in the chair and feel good knowing that you are burning in hell.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2344631 - 02/17/04 08:04 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Let's see here.. first off, it wasn't Caesar, it was Pontias Pilate. THAT was the easy one here.. :wink:

I find it amusing how when this topic is discussed HERE, it is more about what leads people to hold the views that they do instead of what view is "right" or "wrong". That definitely suggests something, right there... and is clearly something that is an individual's choice and is not for the government to get involved with.

Their IS suspossed to be a seperation of church and state. How many people are Christian or Muslim or worshippers of Odin isn't the issue (altough I DO find it amusing that of the top ten states that Frog posted, most all of them were small, Midwestern states.... 96% percent of people in Iowa are white. there isn't exactly a mix of culture in these states. hehe).

Anyways, the government has no right in making laws based on religious ideas. No one is being hurt by having gay marriage. If it was a cult (Edit: was previewing this and saw "culture" and then "cult"... hhhm....) that was killing people, there is obviously a difference, they are imposing on others free will. Well, the government is doing the same thing... if there was a religion for gays, their right to worship as they like would be getting infringed upon. Same fucking thing with the peyote churches....

Its fear and ignorance. Its rather simple.. and astounding how people can claim to be so Enlightened in this day but yet be so closeminded.

But hey, what do you expect from a government who doesn't govern itself out of existance because it would involve letting go of their power? Power addictions can't be filled... they have to be transcended. Then again... how many people are raised and educated (damn, there is that word again) to be in a position to do that?

Damn, I feel like I'm saying things that are incredibly obvious and that there is no point in even talking. *gags himself with his sock*
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblesakura
Aussie Expat

Registered: 02/08/04
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2344657 - 02/17/04 08:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
*gags himself with his sock*





"sock"???  Sure that wasn't a typo?  :lol:


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2344661 - 02/17/04 08:34 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

> Its fear and ignorance. Its rather simple.. and astounding how people can claim to be so Enlightened in this day but yet be so closeminded.

That is the conclusion I finally came to as well.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: sakura]
    #2344688 - 02/17/04 08:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

*takes Spock out of his mouth and puts a sock in his mouth, in order to avoid looking like he made a mistake* :lol:

And "fear and ignorance" can make a better scapegoat than Satan can! :wink:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2344894 - 02/17/04 10:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"Other than, "It is morally wrong", what is the reason not to allow gay couples to marry? I simply don't get it."

neither do i. the only reason is because like you said, it has to deal with morals being made into law.

"No one is being hurt by having gay marriage."

the only people who get angry and upset, or sad and depressed about this are imposing it on themselves. it is their ideas that are conflicting with their surroundings and thus not allowing themselves to go with the flow.

fear and ignorance....


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Anonymous

Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2345706 - 02/17/04 02:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i suspect that there are quite a few here who actually support legislation of moral values... for instance, helping the needy (welfare).


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: ]
    #2345730 - 02/17/04 02:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I support helping the needy out of pure egotistical motives. I'm a damn dirty druggie and will probably need welfare in the not too distant future (or so they tell me).


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: ]
    #2345772 - 02/17/04 03:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i suspect that there are quite a few here who actually support legislation of moral values... for instance, helping the needy (welfare).




Is that really legislation of moral values? How so? Is there a difference between a law being morally right and a law being passed because of other reasons? Wasn't it a New Deal law? Didn't it have something to do with the Depression?

Or was it passed because a book that has been around for awhile declared it immoral to NOT have the law?

I honestly see a difference....
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: ]
    #2345893 - 02/17/04 03:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i suspect that there are quite a few here who actually support legislation of moral values... for instance, helping the needy (welfare).



I see welfare in practical terms. It's to help people who've fallen on hard times get back on their feet. I don't think I'd support people being on welfare their whole lives, unless they were physically or mentally incapable of working. Also, there is not one social program called "welfare." It is a catch-all term for a number of different programs, one of which is known as "unemployment insurance," and if I'm not mistaken, that's one of the biggest welfare programs, along with food stamps and corporate welfare(which should be the first program we get rid of). I guess if you look at that as "helping the needy," then maybe it is, but I think of it as a safety net for when things go terribly wrong in your life.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2346954 - 02/17/04 07:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Is that really legislation of moral values? How so?

because the decision of whether or not to help the needy is a decision about personal morality. the decision to help the needy, like the decision to volunteer in community programs, or to donate to one's house of worship, is a personal moral issue which a person must decide for themself when, how, and to what extent they will avail themself, if at all. these are different from legal obligations. we have no legal obligation to help other people; only not to harm them.

people can and should be compelled by force to do no harm, but they should not be forced to do good.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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