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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2341914 - 02/16/04 05:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The statement "it says in the bible" is no justification for anything. The concept you refer to in that way is either valid or invalid based on it's intrinsic value. Being in the bible is no imprimator of worthiness; no civilisation stones people anymore and masturbation is not a crime. I could go on about this stupidity,
but won't.

We are NOT NOT NOT a christian country and hardly any of the ten commandments are the law of the land.

This country's achievements have largely been made by ignoring the bible and following the path of reality. Bible thumping nitwits have always HELD US BACK. The idiot pope just got around to aknowledging that Gallileo was correct and the Earth revolves around the sun. This is a disgrace. Creationists are disillusioned nitwits. Kansas tried to outlaw evolution theory in the schools and the board members were thrown out because they were clearly wrong.

Now here's the beautiful kicker. I don't think the government has any business sanctioning or denying any kind of union. Every marriage is treated as a civil contract If there is no prior contract in place, i.e. a prenup, the general conditions are applied. Same as when someone dies intestate (without a will). Most people who get married are generally aware of this. Let people choose any life partner, or whatever, that they (within the bounds of "consent", meaning no children and no animals) wish. And lets stop skewing the tax code to support some pie in the sky dream of how "things should be" as opposed to what is fair. Social engineering is evil. Legislating morality is impossible, you can only legislate behaviour. I may want to cut off all your nipples but that's not a crime. If I actually do it, then you can put me away.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342012 - 02/16/04 05:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I could go on about this stupidity,
but won't.


Please do! Swami enjoy a good rant.  :nut:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleKeyannki
newbie
Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 40
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342078 - 02/16/04 05:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

there is no way to separate the church from politics. conservatism is just a leaning to christian-based partisanship. somewhat of a long-standing quagmire to me.

same sex-marriage legislation is good if there is a fair ground rule in place. for example, do not give them all the public benefits entitled to by the original legislation. legal right to divorce settlements is perfectly allowable.


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342251 - 02/16/04 06:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The statement "it says in the bible" is no justification for anything. The concept you refer to in that way is either valid or invalid based on it's intrinsic value. Being in the bible is no imprimator of worthiness; no civilisation stones people anymore and masturbation is not a crime. I could go on about this stupidity,
but won't.




Well, let's not call it "stupidity". K?

Anyways, this is a Christian nation. Most of us believe in the bible. We're not talking here about stoning people for masturbation. We're talking about a severe lack in morals, when someone has sex with someone of the same sex. It says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin. I don't think we should stone homosexuals, but they should not be allowed to marry since it is a sin.

Quote:

We are NOT NOT NOT a christian country and hardly any of the ten commandments are the law of the land.




Um, yes, we are. I'll go find the statistics.

Quote:

This country's achievements have largely been made by ignoring the bible and following the path of reality.




Which is why we're going to hell in a hand basket. When you start allowing "same sex" marriages, we will most definitely have arrived in hell.

Quote:

Bible thumping nitwits have always HELD US BACK. The idiot pope just got around to aknowledging that Gallileo was correct and the Earth revolves around the sun. This is a disgrace. Creationists are disillusioned nitwits. Kansas tried to outlaw evolution theory in the schools and the board members were thrown out because they were clearly wrong.




I am curious. Do you think you could have a discussion with people who have altering viewpoints without name-calling?

It is agreed that the pope made a mistake. He apologized for the mistakes of the prior pope. Let's move on, shall we???

Quote:

Now here's the beautiful kicker. I don't think the government has any business sanctioning or denying any kind of union. Every marriage is treated as a civil contract If there is no prior contract in place, i.e. a prenup, the general conditions are applied. Same as when someone dies intestate (without a will). Most people who get married are generally aware of this. Let people choose any life partner, or whatever, that they (within the bounds of "consent", meaning no children and no animals) wish. And lets stop skewing the tax code to support some pie in the sky dream of how "things should be" as opposed to what is fair. Social engineering is evil. Legislating morality is impossible, you can only legislate behaviour. I may want to cut off all your nipples but that's not a crime. If I actually do it, then you can put me away.




If people of the same sex want to live together, there is no law against that. But if they want to marry, that's a different story. The government is taking the correct position in disallowing something that will further degrade the morals of this country.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
Space Monkey

Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 132
Loc: North American Plate.
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Keyannki]
    #2342287 - 02/16/04 06:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, OK.

keep the government out of the bedrooms of the nation, right? Well, why not? For some people, I think that the following argument might not be unreasonable to many opponents of gay marriage, drug use and so forth. (Personally I can't understand why people would want to get married---is there any more obvious example of an attempt at Government/Church intrusion into what ought to between the two people involved?)

There are certain acts that, while private and perhaps not intrinsically harmful, have ripple effects into the community at large. The community's stability trumps the individuals private enjoyment. Therefore, while the acts themselves may not be problematic if they existed in a vacuum, they do not. Therefore NO!

The way to defeat this argument is to suggest that gay marriage does not destabilize the community. In fact, perhaps "stability" is the wrong sort of word to use. Stability seems to make it sound like the idea is maintaining the status quo because it is the status quo. And I don't think that's what anyone who says "gay marriage ought to be illegal" is meaning. What I would say he means is that he sees the status quo as worth preserving because it is right. I would tender without much argument that we all have our presuppositions that guide our world-view. It happens that yours or mine might be a whole lot more inclusive, but I still hardly think that they account for a rigourous moral framework.

This same sort of argument applies to drug use. There are certainly people who earnestly believe that if drugs were legalized tomorrow, what was once private insanity/degenerate behaviour would spill out onto the streets---cats and dogs living together, a total perversion of anything that might be called Natural Law or The Right Way.

So, if correcting this problem is one's goal, I'm not sure how useful it is to ask "Why would a government ever try to lesiglate morality?" I also am not sure that I like the representation of a government as something not composed of by the people. Now, I guess that might not be so true---if it ever was---but, it's certainly not _completely_ isolated from public influence. But this legislation of morality, well, that's just what happens in the case of every statute that there is---it simply happens that it's possible to get far more intuitive agreement with "homicide shall be illegal" than "it shall be legal for a person to access whatever substances he desires in furtherance of altering his consciousness."

I guess, please don't mistake nearly universally assented to statements as necessarily true statements =]. But maybe no one actually said or implied that. I could be blind.


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----
"Better Dead than Red."


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2342486 - 02/16/04 07:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Dear Frog;
You hunt for the statistics and then make a list of the ten commandments and tell me which ones are the law of the land here. While you're at it tell me how the greatest society that ever existed on this planet is going to hell. If it is , it's not because of our sectarian ways. We have prospered because we have not allowed religion to thwart us.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,793
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2342500 - 02/16/04 07:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

As long as Trendal doesn't show up at my doorstep saying I can't marry who I want to marry, then there isn't a problem.

I was thinking of making the visit sometime next week. How's thursday morning sound? :grin:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342514 - 02/16/04 07:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

No, this is not a christian nation. I am not christian, and neither are MANY people I know. This nation is built on diversity.... melting pot remember????

Free Will... REMEMBER???? People can do whatever they want so long as it does not interfere with the free will of another. Who are they hurting by being gay? By what standard are their morals to be judged when they harm none? And if it harms none, do as ye will.

What exactly makes the BIBLE the almighty book of everything? God didn't write it. PEOPLE wrote it..common people. Who do you think embraced the Bible.. and perverted it to suit their middle man needs.. yes, the church. It may shock you to know that the BIBLE has been HEAVILY EDITED over the past 2,000 years. I do not wholeheartedly accept and believe everything I read from books, ESPECIALLY a 2,000 year old book that is the most hypocritical and debated book of all time.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342547 - 02/16/04 07:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Christian Statistics: The Largest Christian Populations
Last updated 24 January 2000.

Top 10 Largest National Christian Populations
Top 10 Most Christian States in the U.S.A., 1990

Christian statistics: The following list shows the countries with the largest numbers of Christians. Christianity, as defined for the purpose of census and surveys, includes all those who claim to be Christian. This includes varying degrees of religious activity, from essentially non-participating but still-nominal Christians to active full-communicants and life-long clergy. These numbers also include adherents of different divisions within Christianity, including Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter-day Saints, African Indigenous Churches and others.

Top 10 Largest National Christian Populations
Rank Nation Number Percent
1 USA 224,457,000 85%
2 Brazil 139,000,000 93%
3 Mexico 86,120,000 99%
4 Russia 80,000,000 60%
5 China 70,000,000 5.7%
6 Germany 67,000,000 83%
7 Philippines 63,470,000 93%
8 United Kingdom 51,060,000 88%
9 Italy 47,690,000 90%
10 France 44,150,000 98%
11 Nigeria 38,180,000 45%


Source for these Christian statistics: Ash, Russell. The Top 10 of Everything, DK Publishing, Inc.: New York (1997), pg. 160-161; December Advance Newsletter, 1996, Kainos Press; Adherents.com.

NOTE: There are many countries where very high percentages (95 to nearly 100%) of the population are Christians. There are so many, and they represent such a wide range of difficult-to-compare compositions in terms of activity, membership in European state churches, affiliation, etc., that it would be difficult to create a meaningful top 10 list of countries with the highest percentages of Christians. Please refer to the full Adherents.com for such information.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top 10 Most Christian States in the U.S.A.
(Organizationally reported/affiliated adherents of Christian churches, 1990)
Rank State Percent Number
1 Utah 79.60% 1,371,000
2 North Dakota 75.90 485,000
3 Rhode Island 75.10 754,000
4 Alabama 70.70 2,858,000
5 Louisiana 70.10 2,959,000
6 Mississippi 70.10 1,804,000
7 South Dakota 68.10 474,000
8 Oklahoma 66.50 2,097,000
9 Minnesota 64.20 2,807,000
10 Wisconsin 63.90 3,125,000


Christian church adherents were defined as "all members, including full members, their children and the estimated number of other regular participants who are not considered as communicant, confirmed or full members."

Source: Table: Christian Church Adherents, U.S. States, 1990 in Statistical Abstract of the United States, 1997 (117th Edition); Washington, D.C.: U.S. Department of Commerce (October 1997). Data reprinted from M. Bradley; N. Green, Jr.; D. Jones; M. Lynn; and L. McNeil; Churches and Church Membership in the United States 1990, Glenmary Research Center, Atlanta, GA.

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Top 10 Most Christian States in the U.S.A.
(Organizationally reported/affiliated members of Christian churches, 1990)
Rank State Percent Number
1 Utah 75.00% 1,097,000
2 Rhode Island 75.00 710,000
3 North Dakota 73.80 482,000
4 South Dakota 66.90 462,000
5 Minnesota 64.90 2,644,000
6 Wisconsin 64.40 3,029,000
7 Massachusetts 64.00 3,669,000
8 Nebraska 63.10 990,000
9 Iowa 60.80 1,890,000
10 Connecticut 60.80 1,890,000



Source of Christian statistics: Krantz, Les and Jim McCormick. The Peoplepedia: The Ultimate Reference on the American People, Henry Holt and Company: New York (1996), pg. 188: Table: "Top 10 Christian States"; "The table below shows where most religiously affiliated Christians... live, according to the Glenmary Research Center [1990 study]."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Links
Major Religions Ranked by Number of Adherents: Christianity - Christianity is ranked as the largest religion in the world. The "Christianity" section of the "Major Religions of the World" page briefly describes the classification of Christianity as a single religion, and what sub-groups are included within this statistical grouping.
Famous Christians

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Return to the "Largest Religious Communities" index page


This Christian geography and statistics web page is copyright ? 2000 by Adherents.com. Please address send comments, questions, etc. to webmaster@adherents.com.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_christian.html


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342558 - 02/16/04 07:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Dear Frog;
You hunt for the statistics and then make a list of the ten commandments and tell me which ones are the law of the land here. While you're at it tell me how the greatest society that ever existed on this planet is going to hell. If it is , it's not because of our sectarian ways. We have prospered because we have not allowed religion to thwart us.




I didn't say that the 10 Commandments were the law of the land. I said that according to what the bible says, Christians are supposed to obey God's laws, as well as the laws of the land in which we live.



--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (02/16/04 07:42 PM)


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OfflineRenegade8
Niggar please

Registered: 10/11/03
Posts: 386
Loc: Orange County
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342601 - 02/16/04 07:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I really want to stay out of this one, but just I have to ask 'cause you're a lawyer...

How do you reconcile the claim that this is a Christian country with the idea of separation of Church and State? The majority of the population may be Christians, but our government isn't supposed to have any religious affiliation.


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I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2342610 - 02/16/04 07:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
No, this is not a christian nation. I am not christian, and neither are MANY people I know. This nation is built on diversity.... melting pot remember????

Free Will... REMEMBER???? People can do whatever they want so long as it does not interfere with the free will of another. Who are they hurting by being gay? By what standard are their morals to be judged when they harm none? And if it harms none, do as ye will.

What exactly makes the BIBLE the almighty book of everything? God didn't write it. PEOPLE wrote it..common people. Who do you think embraced the Bible.. and perverted it to suit their middle man needs.. yes, the church. It may shock you to know that the BIBLE has been HEAVILY EDITED over the past 2,000 years. I do not wholeheartedly accept and believe everything I read from books, ESPECIALLY a 2,000 year old book that is the most hypocritical and debated book of all time.




Keep in mind that I am playing devil's advocate, but...

I am not playing devil's advocate for this purpose:

Our forefathers or whoever they were came here to the U.S. to be allowed to worship freely their God, without being forced to belong to the religion in England. This country was still founded based on a belief in God, however, they wanted to choose how to believe in God.

So, although the forefathers wanted to guarantee each person the right to worship however each person wants, the Declaration of Independence states:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

The drafters of this Declaration believed in God. We live in a predominantly Christian nation, even if of different denominations.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342613 - 02/16/04 07:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:

I didn't say that the 10 Commandments were the law of the land. I said that according to what the bible says, Christians are supposed to obey God's laws, as well as the laws of the land in which we live.






So then what's up with Bush?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342621 - 02/16/04 07:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, it's just too bad the declaration is a joke now.

And Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, etc.. were NOT christians.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Renegade8]
    #2342622 - 02/16/04 07:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Renegade420 said:
I really want to stay out of this one, but just I have to ask 'cause you're a lawyer...

How do you reconcile the claim that this is a Christian country with the idea of separation of Church and State? The majority of the population may be Christians, but our government isn't supposed to have any religious affiliation.




I didn't say that there was not supposed to be separation between church and state. I said that this is a predominantly Christian nation.

Most of the population can be Christian in a country that is supposed to have a separation of church and state, and yet there are all kinds of religions being practiced in the U.S. because we can each worship any way we want.

And see the statistics I posted.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2342628 - 02/16/04 07:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Quote:

Frog said:

I didn't say that the 10 Commandments were the law of the land. I said that according to what the bible says, Christians are supposed to obey God's laws, as well as the laws of the land in which we live.






So then what's up with Bush?




I have not followed Bush's antics. What about Bush? You'll have to tell me what he's up to. As I stated before, I don't follow the news or politics.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342640 - 02/16/04 08:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

My point is that the ten commandments is not the law of the land. 51% of the people who live in the USA are female. Does this make us a female nation? Please, list the 10 commandments and tell me which ones are the law of the land, one by one. How can 85% of the whole country be Christian when the highest percentage in any state is less than 80%? You stepped on your own dick here. And I still want you to show me how the 10 commandments is law.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Renegade8]
    #2342647 - 02/16/04 08:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, and "the government needs to step in and protect our children, who should not be exposed to the marriage between people of the same sex, even if this action blurs the line between church and state."

:lol:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342662 - 02/16/04 08:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
My point is that the ten commandments is not the law of the land. 51% of the people who live in the USA are female. Does this make us a female nation? Please, list the 10 commandments and tell me which ones are the law of the land, one by one. How can 85% of the whole country be Christian when the highest percentage in any state is less than 80%? You stepped on your own dick here. And I still want you to show me how the 10 commandments is law.




Once again, and maybe it's my fault somehow, but once again, I will reiterate that I DID NOT SAY THAT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE THE LAW OF THE LAND.

I said, according to the bible, Jesus told us to "render unto ceaser that which belongs to ceaser". Meaning, we are supposed to obey the laws of the country in which we live, as well as God's laws.

I AM NOT SAYING that the Ten Commandments are the law of the land!

(Is it me???)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2342673 - 02/16/04 08:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Seems like it is a joke now. With the patriot act, they can almost make anything a searchable warrant. This country isnt that old... it makes me thing their are going to be some more growing pains, and this is a sign of another one.


--------------------
What?


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