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Offlinedeff
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Does Morality hinder Evolution?
    #2995335 - 08/12/04 01:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

My answer is yes. People apply labels such as "bad" or "wrong" to certain evolutions of our society and more importantly our species altogether. This reluctance to change is usually based upon the illusion of morality.

Here let me give you an example. Compare the age groups of our species. I have noticed a trend that (usually, but not always of course) older people are more set in their ways, less open to questioning, and support "morality based" exploitations (ie- jail time for drug "offenders" ect.). Just look at the culture they grew up in compared to ours and you notice a huge difference, especially with the reduction of forced morality. In their day it was beyond inappropiate to show what we now consider very unrevealing "nudity". Looking at nudity from an objective viewpoint it is very obvious that there is absolutely nothing "Wrong" with it, as we are clearly naked creatures hiding ourselves behind our own fabrications. Each succeeding generation is more evolved from the last, so why does morality try to hinder this evolution through instilling a sense of wrongdoing in younger generations and in new ideas and values?

What do you guys think?  :crazy:


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2995354 - 08/12/04 01:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Oh and I forgot to add. Another clear example is in technology. We are at a point where human cloning and experimentations could result in huge breakthroughs in our knowledge and survival capabilities. Why are so many people against human cloning though? Morality. It's "wrong". It's "playing god". We shouldn't do it because it hasn't been done before. Clearly though, clonging humans is not any more objectively "wrong" than how we clone plants or fungi, yet many hold on to this sense of superiority through their morality.

:/


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2995374 - 08/12/04 01:28 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"Morality" itself doesn't hinder evolution, I would say, but humans' warped ideas of morality certainly do, using the definition of evolution you are using.

Forced morality, as you say, is rather silly. It is, in fact, immoral. I think that everyone should pursue their own idea of morality, whether it is consistent with the law or not.


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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deafpanda]
    #2995415 - 08/12/04 01:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Well it's my view that there is no such thing as objective morality (something being objectively right or wrong), and therefore that all morality is just an illusion, a self created template of acceptable behaviour. Or, in the words of the great Swami, nonsensical. I know there's been a lot of threads discussing how morality is an illusion or a myth, so I know some of you probably agree with this.

Here's a question. When has morality helped our species as a whole? (I don't mean through preventing murders ect, that's on an individual basis).


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deafpanda]
    #2995575 - 08/12/04 02:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"Morality" itself doesn't hinder evolution, I would say, but humans' warped ideas of morality certainly do.

This doesn't make sense. Morality is a human idea; it does not exist outside the human mind.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2995662 - 08/12/04 03:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Depending on the source, morality is commonly used to controll people so they don't go wild. Unfortunately, it hinders progress in some aspects, especially in science (cloning, stemcells, etc.). Usually religions use morals and politicians use religions and it's just a clusterfuck of mess because morals are contradictory.

Let's take a look at what morality is. Morality is usually socially imprinted on people from other groups or people. It is based on concepts of right and wrong; good and evil. The problem with morallity from the get go is the question "what is good and evil; right and wrong?"

Good and evil are basically made up concepts which are weighed in value by desire. Most "evil" things are simply the most undesirable things in nature and good are the most desirable. Of course there is a middle ground where something isn't good or evil, like a boulder on a mountain or a cloud in the sky.

In truth good and evil have no weight. Just because a person engages in acts that others think are wrong (gay sex for instance) doesn't make it wrong. It's basically the same concept of how colors don't really exsist, it's just percieved waves of light at differant wavelengths. The ONLY thing that makes something right or wrong is the perception of something measured by desirability. Ethics wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for humans creating it.

Is it wrong to kill living things? This question is a trick question. Let us say I decided it is wrong, since pain on any creature is undesired.

the problem with this moral is we kill things to eat. Grain, cows, chicken, hell, even if you eat algae and plankton it's killing, but we can't live without killing something. To not eat is to kill the self and that is wrong. Our survival depends on it, but that means killing other things. Thus ethics controdict and destroy themselves.

Hell, the same goes for selfishness. Selfishness is not wrong because you have to have some degree of selfishness to consume annother creature. However, selfishness is still shunned by people and I'll admit it is rude to me when my bow doesn't give me a cigarett or smoke me up. Why is it bad? My desire controdicts him. On his side, I am being rude for being a bum and bumming butts all the time. Again, Ethics destroy themselves within thier own being.

The biblical moral "Thou shalt not murder" gets put to shit if you read Joshua. In fact God kills some people there. It is a crime to kill in most places untill it somehow becomes normal for a desired, political purpose, war. Or is it only a crime if you get caught?

The problem with morality is that it is based on something that does not exsist. There is no good or evil, there is only wanted and unwanted, desired and undesired. This is the basis of morality, perception.

When you are dealing with large groups of people, morals are used to control people from being undesirable or acting undesirably. Ethics usually are a religious or political method of control. They are designed hold some people back from doing what could be self destructive or dangerous, however SAFETY IS SOMETIMES OPPRESSIVE! Opressive safety happens when "we don't want people committing these crimes because they are wrong. We will tap your phone lines and place cameras in both public and private places now.

It is dangerous when people who control the morals and laws use them to manipulate people. An example is the church using "give with a cheerful heart" to have you give offerings. Ethical manipulation is big bussiness!

Unfortunately, many ethics and morals are based on unfounded "norms" and it is possible for extermination of anything differant to become ok. The Nazis thought the Jews (there were so many other groups) undesirable and villified them. It then became a good thing to kill them. Does anyone see what is wrong with the Nazis?

Manipulation of morals is there: dehumanization by making something bad (just a perception, not a moral) makes it good to destroy (there is the moral!). In this case, it is a perception that was changed to bring down the power of morals.

Without ethics, society would crumble to an extent but people want and choose to harmonize most of the time. People tend to strive toward a "norm." That is why people who lie steal and cheat are looked down upon, it is morrally abnormal. They don't agree to the norm and thus don't harmonize, creating chaos.

This scares some people who have never known the chaos that this wild world really exsists in. They don't understand and don't know what to do, so they get frustrated and then angry. Before you know it there are whole groups of these scared individuals who have seen thier norms violated. Then they try to get a grip and control other people. For what? To save themselves from that which they don't understand.

"Don't steal, don't kill other people, don't cheat on your wife, etc." are morals that have social reasons for being implemented. Even if it is at the expence of personal or overall social progress. If a guy had a machine that cured canser and kept it to himself, would stealing it and exploiting it to the world be good or bad? How bout if you make no profit? How about if he steals it back? Does that make it right that it was stolen back?

Old morals which get in our generation's way are products of all kinds of things that have usually expired: Past manipulations, population control, social order, religious bullshit, etc. Religions are the source of almost all morals, although I don't think the "Cover the wang before you bang" moral comes from any religion.

Once the old dinosaurs who keep naked women off of television die out, there will be nothing restricting it. Oh wait, that's what the internet is for! So there is a way around the unfair morals!

We are in constant change and the internet just accellerates everything. One thing changing is morals, they can change within a moment in the individual but take eons to change for a contry. The moral for not stealing is practiced in just about every culture. Even though they are a pain sometimes they can help because it prevents people from taking away the fruits of your labor. They are not perfect and hamper much, but it's a neccessity in society to have some moral structure.

I don't believe any one institution should decide morality like the church would like. I also think the government needs to veto half the laws we have because they don't have any basis in this era. Anti drug laws are just retarded. In my state you can get put on a public list as a "LEVEL 2 SEX OFFENDER" for pissing in public.

To really move foward, morals, laws and enforcements have to change all the time, this may seem like a contradiction; but I have yet to see a moral really stand beyond the percieved concepts of desirablility. Since desirability is mutable, everything on top of it has to change with it.

I'm tired of typing now and hungry.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: MAGnum]
    #2995679 - 08/12/04 03:06 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Good post. I agree with all you points. One thing I'd like to add though...

"Without ethics, society would crumble..."

It is true that without ethics our ethically-run society would cease to exist, but a new society would emerge. This is in itself a process of evolution, especially since this new society would be more open for personal exploration, which triggers advances in our species.

What do you think?


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deafpanda]
    #2995701 - 08/12/04 03:14 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
Forced morality, as you say, is rather silly. It is, in fact, immoral. I think that everyone should pursue their own idea of morality, whether it is consistent with the law or not.




That is strait up how I feel.

The only problem with it is that if your actions become morally undesirable enough, the law will punish you or take your life. I base my own morals on self preservation before anything. If you owe anything to yourself and are going for self preservation, you do not want to break the law sloppily. In other words it is morally wrong to get caught.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: MAGnum]
    #2995710 - 08/12/04 03:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

It is only as forced as you allow it to be. Desiring to conform to society's standards is the only reason people feel forced by it's standards.

But yes, attempting to alter one's idea of morality is a form of control. I would say that's wrong, but then I would be using morals as well, thus defeating the purpose of this thread. Instead, people will begin to realize themselves that they are the final verdict of their perceptualized morality. This is similar to moonshoe's thread about controlling reality :smile:


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2995761 - 08/12/04 03:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Good post. I agree with all you points. One thing I'd like to add though...

"Without ethics, society would crumble..."

It is true that without ethics our ethically-run society would cease to exist, but a new society would emerge. This is in itself a process of evolution, especially since this new society would be more open for personal exploration, which triggers advances in our species.

What do you think?




I think alot of morals are precariously holding many of our systems together. In essence our society would indeed crumble, but as you said, annother would emerge. As for what that non-moral society would be like? I have no clue.

Of course there would be scientists perfecting human cloning and stem-cell type things. Hell, the cure for canser might someday be growing a new body and attaching your head to it.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: MAGnum]
    #2995787 - 08/12/04 03:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, they hold together the morally-based systems of our society. Although, are these false systems really beneficial in the first place?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2995824 - 08/12/04 03:45 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

mortality and evolution go hand in hand.

How could a species "evolve" without dying and reproducing?

And if you think a planet of immortals would last long if they were still reproducing, that is pretty bold. Earth would have filled up ages ago if nobody was dying because we're obsessed with sex :wink:


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2996036 - 08/12/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Yes, they hold together the morally-based systems of our society. Although, are these false systems really beneficial in the first place?




That is a good question.

Let's find some moral based systems

-Church, any religion.
-The Market (bussiness ethics)
-Marriage
-The war machine
-The Judicial system (KILL IT!)
-I can't think
-Police
-There's more

Yeah, People could get rid of all of those and make a better world. I don't know what we would do for a market though. Right now I am starting to get buzzed off some Heinekens so I might loose creativity in my posts.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: MAGnum]
    #2996068 - 08/12/04 04:50 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe we'll start to realize how ridiculous the concept of ownership is and just freely share resources. I dunno.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2996069 - 08/12/04 04:51 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Strumpling said:
mortality and evolution go hand in hand.

How could a species "evolve" without dying and reproducing?

And if you think a planet of immortals would last long if they were still reproducing, that is pretty bold. Earth would have filled up ages ago if nobody was dying because we're obsessed with sex :wink:




Humans evolve outside of natural selection.  Example: Your keyboard, your computer, the knowledge put into computers is part of our evolution.  We have the ability to somewhat adapt the world around us to us rather than have to die off or survive to change.  That doesn't mean the changes don't happen. 

Also, society makes it easier for unsavory genes to reproduce that normally wouldn't survive at all, it cushons people.  And who says retards don't have sex?

Morals for immortals:
A planet of immortals would have laws against having kids.  It would probably be a special priviledge to procreate and couples would probably only be alowed to have one kid with very few exceptions.
Eventually the planet would run out of space and we'd eat everything.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2996228 - 08/12/04 05:26 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Maybe we'll start to realize how ridiculous the concept of ownership is and just freely share resources. I dunno.




Well, if people would learn to live in an uncorruptable communism, It is more than possible. The only problem with achieving that dream is that people will harm others and fuck each other over. You remember this post, Deff? About the vision that dude had?

They told me that the only way I could help was to spread postive unconditional regard to everyone I encountered. They then said it was time for my return.

I felt myself collecting once again in my body, and I sat for some time thinking this over.


Well, He didn't say love, he said regard. Which I think is better anyways, as it is lunacy to love someone you don't know exsists.

I think Love is good and all, but to love EVERYONE is almost frightenning. I'll save my love for those who diserve it.

However, I can regard just about anybody in a positive light.

Plus I think if the experiance was real, he got astral projected really smoothly (almost by force, but not in a bad way). The only times I ever accomplished this, I got slammed into Either way, he was in contact with some kind of higher consciousness. Even if it was in his head, it is a pretty cool vision.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: MAGnum]
    #2996270 - 08/12/04 05:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

That's what stops that from working, the fear of others not following it and matching your generousity. However, when the true humbled state is reached this is not a problem, one would not seek anything in return. I think if we all focused on positive self-improvement without focusing on others, this could easily be a reality.


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: MAGnum]
    #2996371 - 08/12/04 06:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldn't say morality hinder's natural evolution at all. I think it most likely aids it. (Tigers can't evolve if we eat all of them!)

Maybe I'm going off track as I didn't actually read this post. Do you mean unatural evolution through science and genetic engineering etc.? I'd say it certainly slows it but it's not always a bad thing.

Society's moral outlook might seem to impose on scientific progress but when public controversy brings something into the spotlight it will prompt further research on the subject and a great deal of good can come from that. (improved safety and technique etc.)

The whole stem cell thing is a good example of this. Scientists are cloning embryos as we speak regardless of the public outcry against it and without any regard for morals we would likely be cloning babies and eating their nutritious hearts.

That's what I think anyway. My apologies if I'm talking out of my ass.  :wexican:


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: Lazerouth]
    #2996384 - 08/12/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"unatural evolution"

Such a thing does not exist. How can something be objectively unnatural? Especially a by-product of "natural" humans.


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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Does Morality hinder Evolution? [Re: deff]
    #2996391 - 08/12/04 06:08 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I think we all want to control anything external that confuses us. Either that, or try to find answers that explain something that is unexplainable.

What happens with these two ways of dealing with reality, and the reality of evolution is that, in time, we begin to realise that certain things cant be controled, and that we just have to let it go. And when this happens, alot of people that were braught up in different era's (The old people you mentioned) naturaly panic.

Does this make sense?


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