Home | Community | Message Board

Mushrooms.com
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 9 days, 15 hours
Legislating Moral Values?
    #2340419 - 02/16/04 10:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I have been reading about all the Gay Marriage stuff in the news lately and am puzzled. I don't understand the people that are against it. I can usually see both sides of an argument, but in this case I cannot. Other than, "It is morally wrong", what is the reason not to allow gay couples to marry? I simply don't get it.

The only argument that I hear from the conservative side is that "marriage is between a man and a woman under God". I was always taught that it was between two people that were in love with each other that wanted to spend their lives together. If this is indeed the only reason, is this not a conflict of church and state?

All of this leads to a bigger question. Why must people legislate moral values? What good does it do if we force everybody to lead moral lives? Just because a prisoner can't rob a bank doesn't mean that he isn't a bank robber. Do the law makers really believe that God cares more about what we do rather than what is in our hearts? Why can we not learn from God's example... we were given the freedom to screw up by God... and yet we feel that we are wise enough to decide what is proper and what is not... and to force others to live by what we decide?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2340432 - 02/16/04 10:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible. You can't reason with nuts like these. Give it up.

And I don't think bank robbing is illegal just because stealing is considered bad. It's more a matter of convenience. I certainly don't think people who steal are more evil than those who don't, but I won't let anybody run of with my stuff just like that. I might need it.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 9 days, 15 hours
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2340483 - 02/16/04 11:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible.

But where in the bible does it say, "Man shall outlaw all sin and judge other men that do sin."? I still don't get it...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2340514 - 02/16/04 11:47 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible.

No, just "gay sex = sin". You can drop "satan".

The bible doesn't say "Man shall outlaw all sin and judge other men that do sin." But the bible does say "render unto ceaser that which belongs to ceaser." (Sp?)

In other words, we're supposed to obey man-made laws as well as God's laws.

I think the government has to legislate morality because otherwise people will be bad. I don't believe that someone who steals is a good person.

Look at these forums. If allowed to go unchecked, people will be rude. So they have to be moderated.

Same in life. If there are no laws in place, telling people what "not" to do, they will do it. Still do it, like stealing, even when told not to.

Muhurgle: "I certainly don't think people who steal are more evil than those who don't"

Why do you say that, Muhurgle?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAtomisk
all forms areself awareness

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 164
Loc: jungle of love
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2340579 - 02/16/04 12:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

seems to me that difference breeds fear into the weak, and the fear breeds hatred


--------------------
o house-builder! thou art seen. thou shalt build no house again. all thy rafters are broken. thy ridge-pole is shattered.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2340643 - 02/16/04 12:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Muhurgle: "I certainly don't think people who steal are more evil than those who don't"

Why do you say that, Muhurgle?


Because that's what I think :smile:

There is no universal metric for good or evil. Morality is arbitrary and practical.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2340666 - 02/16/04 12:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think we had this discussion elsewhere, once before. Not you and me, but this forum.

I guess I still don't understand how it is not wrong to steal. How someone who steals is just as good a person as someone who doesn't steal.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Atomisk]
    #2340679 - 02/16/04 12:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Atomisk said:
seems to me that difference breeds fear into the weak, and the fear breeds hatred




If we allow gay marriages, the whole world will turn gay, and we can't allow that!  :noway:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2340684 - 02/16/04 12:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
> Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible.
No, just "gay sex = sin".  You can drop "satan".




But sin is caused by Satan. See, when you are in a weak moment and you do something "bad", it wasn't your doing, it was Satan overpowering you! Blame it on the nonexistant devil and don't feel guilty about what you did!  :rolleyes: 

Quote:


In other words, we're supposed to obey man-made laws as well as God's laws.




Wait a minute... God has laws? Where? What determines what is a law mandated by God or not?

Quote:


I think the government has to legislate morality because otherwise people will be bad.  I don't believe that someone who steals is a good person. 




And being gay and having the right to marriage is bad?

Quote:


Look at these forums.  If allowed to go unchecked, people will be rude.  So they have to be moderated. 




As long as Trendal doesn't show up at my doorstep saying I can't marry who I want to marry, then there isn't a problem. :wink:

Quote:


Same in life.  If there are no laws in place, telling people what "not" to do, they will do it.  Still do it, like stealing, even when told not to.





Is it enough to tell a child not to do something? Does "punishing" them make them stop their "evil" ways? Or is it just a case of a child not understanding why they shouldn't do these things, and the solution is to bring them to a point of understanding?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2340696 - 02/16/04 12:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It's wrong because any society which thought that it was right wouldn't get as far as one which thinks it is wrong. It's merely a practical convention.

Gay sex on the other hand, isn't impractical to anyone. In fact, if you're really disgusted by gays you should be very open towards gay marriages. If being gay is a genetic trait, less taboo around gayness will probably lead to less gays in the long run. Everybody wins.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2340717 - 02/16/04 01:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Frog said:
> Gay sex = sin = satan. It says so in the bible.
No, just "gay sex = sin".  You can drop "satan".




But sin is caused by Satan. See, when you are in a weak moment and you do something "bad", it wasn't your doing, it was Satan overpowering you! Blame it on the nonexistant devil and don't feel guilty about what you did!  :rolleyes: 




:lol:  Well, then, it should go like this:

satan = Gay sex = sin

Quote:

Quote:


In other words, we're supposed to obey man-made laws as well as God's laws.




Wait a minute... God has laws? Where? What determines what is a law mandated by God or not?




The 10 Commandments are still viable, last I heard.  :rolleyes:

Quote:

Quote:


I think the government has to legislate morality because otherwise people will be bad.  I don't believe that someone who steals is a good person. 




And being gay and having the right to marriage is bad?




I wasn't referring to gay marriage.  I was referring to the general question, "why does the government have to legislate morality".  I don't know, right now, what I believe or think with regard to gay marriages.  I haven't thought too much about it. 

Quote:

Quote:


Same in life.  If there are no laws in place, telling people what "not" to do, they will do it.  Still do it, like stealing, even when told not to.





Is it enough to tell a child not to do something? Does "punishing" them make them stop their "evil" ways? Or is it just a case of a child not understanding why they shouldn't do these things, and the solution is to bring them to a point of understanding?
Peace.




I don't understand what you mean by this. 

If the government enacts a law telling gay people that they can't get married, the gay people can go look up the reason for the law.  I don't see how a law against gay marriage is "punishment", anyways.  At least, not in the strict sense of the word.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2341061 - 02/16/04 02:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Seuss, I share the same confusion...is the only argument against gay marriage preaching that it doesn't mold according to Judeo-Christian values?

EDIT: Should any religious values be taken into consideration during legislation?


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


Edited by viaggio (02/16/04 02:36 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 9 days, 15 hours
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2341161 - 02/16/04 02:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> I think the government has to legislate morality because otherwise people will be bad. I don't believe that someone who steals is a good person.

I'm not talking about things like stealing or killing others. I am talking about things that I do in my home that is nobody elses business. Why should the government care if I drink alone at home... or if I want to live with/have sex with/marry somebody of the same sex... or if I want to stay up past midnight... or if I want to skip church on Sunday? If what I am doing doesn't adversely effect other people, they why must the government stilll feel obligated to stick their nose in my business? I just don't understand.

I read a quote by one of the Congressmen that was opposed to the gay marriage thing... Mr. Frist I beleive. He said something like, "It should not be up to the courts to decide the fate of marriage. I will do whatever I can to save the sanctity of this union between a man and a woman." How two-faced can we be? It isn't up to the courts, but it is fine for congress to get involved? I don't get it....

If the gay marriage thing is a hangup on discussion, put drug use or sex after midnight in there instead. The concept is the same. The government should not have a right to dictate moral values. Common law is a different matter... don't steal, don't kill, etc... In these cases, the government is protecting the rights of another. Telling me that I can't marry the person that I want to doesn't protect anybody. I also have no problem with the government protecting those that cannot protect themselves, such as children... but leave consenting and resopnsible adults to themselves to decide their own fate. If what I am doing is unjust, unholy, immoral, and wrong... then let me atone for my sins when my time comes.

> In other words, we're supposed to obey man-made laws as well as God's laws.

Great, then let the Catholics obey Catholic law. Let the Christians object the laws of their churches. But these faiths should not try to legislate their church morals (laws) upon the masses. Seperate church and state. Where does it say in the American Indian bible that all American Indians must follow the laws of man as well as God?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2341227 - 02/16/04 03:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I still don't know what the answer is. I wish someone would come and post why the government would legislate against same-sex marriages. What purpose it serves.

I used to go to church. I can "guess" what the argument is, but I think this is a good one to ask my guru about.

IMO, this is along the same lines as the abortion debate, although I know the argument in support of the government-banning of abortion is that the taking of a human life is involved.

But the idea is that we should each decide for ourselves how we want to live our lives, as long as we're not hurting anyone else. I think people are still afraid of homosexuality.

>>If what I am doing is unjust, unholy, immoral, and wrong... then let me atone for my sins when my time comes.

Exactly.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2341357 - 02/16/04 03:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
The 10 Commandments are still viable, last I heard.  :rolleyes:





And these are God's laws? How did they become God's laws? Who said so? I'll start decreeing laws as God's soon too, and everyone will HAVE to accept them as God's.

Quote:


Is it enough to tell a child not to do something? Does "punishing" them make them stop their "evil" ways? Or is it just a case of a child not understanding why they shouldn't do these things, and the solution is to bring them to a point of understanding?
Peace.




What I mean about this is that setting a law on such ISN'T going to have much of an effect. Hell, it makes people want to do it more and creates ALL sorts of further problems. You set a law, you have to enforce it. We see where this goes with the drug thing, and it is completely insane.

Of course, what better way for the government to get rich, selling the stuff that they banned in the first place in order to have money that isn't marked, and then employing all sorts of people to bust the people they are selling it to.. but THAT is off topic.

Anyways, I think we all see that setting a law on something that they have no business setting isn't going to stop what they "want" stopped.

What IS the way? Hmm.. I dunno.... how about education? If you want someone to not do something, you explain to them WHY they shouldn't do it. (and, in the case of drugs, since their reasons are baseless, they obviously don't educate on that one.. only spread propaganda).

Wow.. education.. who would have thought? Anyways, as no one is being adversely effected by gay marriage or drugs but the people involved in both, there is no problem and should be no legislation.

What I want to hear is a GOOD reason why either SHOULD be banned, and it needs to be a reason that respects the seperation of church and state, which obviously ISN'T seperated...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2341416 - 02/16/04 03:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Conservatism runs strong in america. Hell i wonder if some of these old guys in the government dont go home and put their pilgrim out fits on. They are getting too upset because it disturbs their view of morality, and they say that their morality is based around one faith. Can anyone confirm that they said this? Cause if Mr. Bush or whoever did, they will be facing an infringement on the consitution. they cant make a debate because they say, " o we believe this, so everyone else has to do because of our belief systems"... thats crossing the line.

What IS the point of keeping gay's from getting married? I dont really give a shit whether they get married or not, but i dont think the government should be allowed to say if they do or not. Its really shitty to know that their are so many people stuck in the past. Its a big efffin mess.


--------------------
What?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2341431 - 02/16/04 03:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Frog said:
The 10 Commandments are still viable, last I heard.  :rolleyes:





And these are God's laws? How did they become God's laws? Who said so? I'll start decreeing laws as God's soon too, and everyone will HAVE to accept them as God's.




Um, I didn't decree anything.  The bible states that God gave the 10 Commandments to the Jews, in order for them to know what to do and what not to do.

Quote:

Quote:


Is it enough to tell a child not to do something? Does "punishing" them make them stop their "evil" ways? Or is it just a case of a child not understanding why they shouldn't do these things, and the solution is to bring them to a point of understanding?
Peace.




What I mean about this is that setting a law on such ISN'T going to have much of an effect. Hell, it makes people want to do it more and creates ALL sorts of further problems. You set a law, you have to enforce it. We see where this goes with the drug thing, and it is completely insane.




So you think that if same-sex marriages are disallowed, more people will want to marry someone of the same sex???  :grin:

Quote:

Of course, what better way for the government to get rich, selling the stuff that they banned in the first place in order to have money that isn't marked, and then employing all sorts of people to bust the people they are selling it to.. but THAT is off topic.




I don't think the government is going to get any money for "not" allowing people of the same sex to marry each other.  I think the government is just withholding a privilege from homosexuals. 

Quote:

What I want to hear is a GOOD reason why either SHOULD be banned, and it needs to be a reason that respects the seperation of church and state, which obviously ISN'T seperated...
Peace.




I've decided that I think that same-sex marriages are private matters, and none of the government's business.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2341530 - 02/16/04 04:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Um, I didn't decree anything.  The bible states that God gave the 10 Commandments to the Jews, in order for them to know what to do and what not to do.




I didn't say you did. haha. What I am calling into question is the validation of these laws of God and why they hold more stock because they have been decreed "God's laws". (this has nothing to do with what laws they are or how reasonable they are, by the way)

Quote:


So you think that if same-sex marriages are disallowed, more people will want to marry someone of the same sex???  :grin:




Could definitely be... hehe. More likely, though, is that more people are going to lose respect for their government, not trust it, and could even end up seeking to harm people associated with it...

Quote:


I don't think the government is going to get any money for "not" allowing people of the same sex to marry each other.  I think the government is just withholding a privilege from homosexuals. 




That was about the drug thing, sorry. hehe

Quote:

I've decided that I think that same-sex marriages are private matters, and none of the government's business.




I know what YOU decided, I just want someone to show up and give me a good reason. You can even play the Devil's Advocate if ya'll like. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2341584 - 02/16/04 04:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I can play devil's advocate, but if someone comes on here and doesn't realize I'm playing devil's advocate, you have to beat 'em up for me, k?

:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2341624 - 02/16/04 04:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

*clears throat*

Gay marriage is wrong, for the following reasons:

It says in the bible that homosexuality is wrong. It's a sin. Therefore, people of the same sex shouldn't get married.

If the government allows same-sex marriage, it's just as if they are condoning a sin. We are a "christian", God-loving country. We built this country on the bible. We can't condone same-sex marriage because it's against God.

Also, marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman. The sanctity of marriage should be maintained, and can only be sanctified if between a man and a woman, not between people of the same sex. For the government to condone marriage between 2 people of the same sex makes a mockery of the sanctity of marriage.

Additonally, if the government sanctions marriage, what will our children think? Do we want our children to grow up to be gay??? If children think it's okay to marry two people of the same sex, our children will become gay!

I think it's right for the government to make laws against people of the same sex marrying each other. Marriage was created by God in order for two people of the opposite sex to enter a union together, with his blessing. If homosexuality is a sin, then it can't be blessed by God, and the government shouldn't condone it.

I'm looking forward to your votes in the upcoming election...

Oh, wait, never mind. *wipes brow*. Forgot what I was doing for a minute.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2341914 - 02/16/04 05:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The statement "it says in the bible" is no justification for anything. The concept you refer to in that way is either valid or invalid based on it's intrinsic value. Being in the bible is no imprimator of worthiness; no civilisation stones people anymore and masturbation is not a crime. I could go on about this stupidity,
but won't.

We are NOT NOT NOT a christian country and hardly any of the ten commandments are the law of the land.

This country's achievements have largely been made by ignoring the bible and following the path of reality. Bible thumping nitwits have always HELD US BACK. The idiot pope just got around to aknowledging that Gallileo was correct and the Earth revolves around the sun. This is a disgrace. Creationists are disillusioned nitwits. Kansas tried to outlaw evolution theory in the schools and the board members were thrown out because they were clearly wrong.

Now here's the beautiful kicker. I don't think the government has any business sanctioning or denying any kind of union. Every marriage is treated as a civil contract If there is no prior contract in place, i.e. a prenup, the general conditions are applied. Same as when someone dies intestate (without a will). Most people who get married are generally aware of this. Let people choose any life partner, or whatever, that they (within the bounds of "consent", meaning no children and no animals) wish. And lets stop skewing the tax code to support some pie in the sky dream of how "things should be" as opposed to what is fair. Social engineering is evil. Legislating morality is impossible, you can only legislate behaviour. I may want to cut off all your nipples but that's not a crime. If I actually do it, then you can put me away.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342012 - 02/16/04 05:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I could go on about this stupidity,
but won't.


Please do! Swami enjoy a good rant.  :nut:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleKeyannki
newbie
Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 40
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342078 - 02/16/04 05:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

there is no way to separate the church from politics. conservatism is just a leaning to christian-based partisanship. somewhat of a long-standing quagmire to me.

same sex-marriage legislation is good if there is a fair ground rule in place. for example, do not give them all the public benefits entitled to by the original legislation. legal right to divorce settlements is perfectly allowable.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342251 - 02/16/04 06:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The statement "it says in the bible" is no justification for anything. The concept you refer to in that way is either valid or invalid based on it's intrinsic value. Being in the bible is no imprimator of worthiness; no civilisation stones people anymore and masturbation is not a crime. I could go on about this stupidity,
but won't.




Well, let's not call it "stupidity". K?

Anyways, this is a Christian nation. Most of us believe in the bible. We're not talking here about stoning people for masturbation. We're talking about a severe lack in morals, when someone has sex with someone of the same sex. It says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin. I don't think we should stone homosexuals, but they should not be allowed to marry since it is a sin.

Quote:

We are NOT NOT NOT a christian country and hardly any of the ten commandments are the law of the land.




Um, yes, we are. I'll go find the statistics.

Quote:

This country's achievements have largely been made by ignoring the bible and following the path of reality.




Which is why we're going to hell in a hand basket. When you start allowing "same sex" marriages, we will most definitely have arrived in hell.

Quote:

Bible thumping nitwits have always HELD US BACK. The idiot pope just got around to aknowledging that Gallileo was correct and the Earth revolves around the sun. This is a disgrace. Creationists are disillusioned nitwits. Kansas tried to outlaw evolution theory in the schools and the board members were thrown out because they were clearly wrong.




I am curious. Do you think you could have a discussion with people who have altering viewpoints without name-calling?

It is agreed that the pope made a mistake. He apologized for the mistakes of the prior pope. Let's move on, shall we???

Quote:

Now here's the beautiful kicker. I don't think the government has any business sanctioning or denying any kind of union. Every marriage is treated as a civil contract If there is no prior contract in place, i.e. a prenup, the general conditions are applied. Same as when someone dies intestate (without a will). Most people who get married are generally aware of this. Let people choose any life partner, or whatever, that they (within the bounds of "consent", meaning no children and no animals) wish. And lets stop skewing the tax code to support some pie in the sky dream of how "things should be" as opposed to what is fair. Social engineering is evil. Legislating morality is impossible, you can only legislate behaviour. I may want to cut off all your nipples but that's not a crime. If I actually do it, then you can put me away.




If people of the same sex want to live together, there is no law against that. But if they want to marry, that's a different story. The government is taking the correct position in disallowing something that will further degrade the morals of this country.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMal_Fenderson
Space Monkey

Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 132
Loc: North American Plate.
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Keyannki]
    #2342287 - 02/16/04 06:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, OK.

keep the government out of the bedrooms of the nation, right? Well, why not? For some people, I think that the following argument might not be unreasonable to many opponents of gay marriage, drug use and so forth. (Personally I can't understand why people would want to get married---is there any more obvious example of an attempt at Government/Church intrusion into what ought to between the two people involved?)

There are certain acts that, while private and perhaps not intrinsically harmful, have ripple effects into the community at large. The community's stability trumps the individuals private enjoyment. Therefore, while the acts themselves may not be problematic if they existed in a vacuum, they do not. Therefore NO!

The way to defeat this argument is to suggest that gay marriage does not destabilize the community. In fact, perhaps "stability" is the wrong sort of word to use. Stability seems to make it sound like the idea is maintaining the status quo because it is the status quo. And I don't think that's what anyone who says "gay marriage ought to be illegal" is meaning. What I would say he means is that he sees the status quo as worth preserving because it is right. I would tender without much argument that we all have our presuppositions that guide our world-view. It happens that yours or mine might be a whole lot more inclusive, but I still hardly think that they account for a rigourous moral framework.

This same sort of argument applies to drug use. There are certainly people who earnestly believe that if drugs were legalized tomorrow, what was once private insanity/degenerate behaviour would spill out onto the streets---cats and dogs living together, a total perversion of anything that might be called Natural Law or The Right Way.

So, if correcting this problem is one's goal, I'm not sure how useful it is to ask "Why would a government ever try to lesiglate morality?" I also am not sure that I like the representation of a government as something not composed of by the people. Now, I guess that might not be so true---if it ever was---but, it's certainly not _completely_ isolated from public influence. But this legislation of morality, well, that's just what happens in the case of every statute that there is---it simply happens that it's possible to get far more intuitive agreement with "homicide shall be illegal" than "it shall be legal for a person to access whatever substances he desires in furtherance of altering his consciousness."

I guess, please don't mistake nearly universally assented to statements as necessarily true statements =]. But maybe no one actually said or implied that. I could be blind.


--------------------
----
"Better Dead than Red."


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2342486 - 02/16/04 07:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Dear Frog;
You hunt for the statistics and then make a list of the ten commandments and tell me which ones are the law of the land here. While you're at it tell me how the greatest society that ever existed on this planet is going to hell. If it is , it's not because of our sectarian ways. We have prospered because we have not allowed religion to thwart us.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,793
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2342500 - 02/16/04 07:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

As long as Trendal doesn't show up at my doorstep saying I can't marry who I want to marry, then there isn't a problem.

I was thinking of making the visit sometime next week. How's thursday morning sound? :grin:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342514 - 02/16/04 07:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

No, this is not a christian nation. I am not christian, and neither are MANY people I know. This nation is built on diversity.... melting pot remember????

Free Will... REMEMBER???? People can do whatever they want so long as it does not interfere with the free will of another. Who are they hurting by being gay? By what standard are their morals to be judged when they harm none? And if it harms none, do as ye will.

What exactly makes the BIBLE the almighty book of everything? God didn't write it. PEOPLE wrote it..common people. Who do you think embraced the Bible.. and perverted it to suit their middle man needs.. yes, the church. It may shock you to know that the BIBLE has been HEAVILY EDITED over the past 2,000 years. I do not wholeheartedly accept and believe everything I read from books, ESPECIALLY a 2,000 year old book that is the most hypocritical and debated book of all time.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342547 - 02/16/04 07:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Christian Statistics: The Largest Christian Populations
Last updated 24 January 2000.

Top 10 Largest National Christian Populations
Top 10 Most Christian States in the U.S.A., 1990

Christian statistics: The following list shows the countries with the largest numbers of Christians. Christianity, as defined for the purpose of census and surveys, includes all those who claim to be Christian. This includes varying degrees of religious activity, from essentially non-participating but still-nominal Christians to active full-communicants and life-long clergy. These numbers also include adherents of different divisions within Christianity, including Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter-day Saints, African Indigenous Churches and others.

Top 10 Largest National Christian Populations
Rank Nation Number Percent
1 USA 224,457,000 85%
2 Brazil 139,000,000 93%
3 Mexico 86,120,000 99%
4 Russia 80,000,000 60%
5 China 70,000,000 5.7%
6 Germany 67,000,000 83%
7 Philippines 63,470,000 93%
8 United Kingdom 51,060,000 88%
9 Italy 47,690,000 90%
10 France 44,150,000 98%
11 Nigeria 38,180,000 45%


Source for these Christian statistics: Ash, Russell. The Top 10 of Everything, DK Publishing, Inc.: New York (1997), pg. 160-161; December Advance Newsletter, 1996, Kainos Press; Adherents.com.

NOTE: There are many countries where very high percentages (95 to nearly 100%) of the population are Christians. There are so many, and they represent such a wide range of difficult-to-compare compositions in terms of activity, membership in European state churches, affiliation, etc., that it would be difficult to create a meaningful top 10 list of countries with the highest percentages of Christians. Please refer to the full Adherents.com for such information.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top 10 Most Christian States in the U.S.A.
(Organizationally reported/affiliated adherents of Christian churches, 1990)
Rank State Percent Number
1 Utah 79.60% 1,371,000
2 North Dakota 75.90 485,000
3 Rhode Island 75.10 754,000
4 Alabama 70.70 2,858,000
5 Louisiana 70.10 2,959,000
6 Mississippi 70.10 1,804,000
7 South Dakota 68.10 474,000
8 Oklahoma 66.50 2,097,000
9 Minnesota 64.20 2,807,000
10 Wisconsin 63.90 3,125,000


Christian church adherents were defined as "all members, including full members, their children and the estimated number of other regular participants who are not considered as communicant, confirmed or full members."

Source: Table: Christian Church Adherents, U.S. States, 1990 in Statistical Abstract of the United States, 1997 (117th Edition); Washington, D.C.: U.S. Department of Commerce (October 1997). Data reprinted from M. Bradley; N. Green, Jr.; D. Jones; M. Lynn; and L. McNeil; Churches and Church Membership in the United States 1990, Glenmary Research Center, Atlanta, GA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top 10 Most Christian States in the U.S.A.
(Organizationally reported/affiliated members of Christian churches, 1990)
Rank State Percent Number
1 Utah 75.00% 1,097,000
2 Rhode Island 75.00 710,000
3 North Dakota 73.80 482,000
4 South Dakota 66.90 462,000
5 Minnesota 64.90 2,644,000
6 Wisconsin 64.40 3,029,000
7 Massachusetts 64.00 3,669,000
8 Nebraska 63.10 990,000
9 Iowa 60.80 1,890,000
10 Connecticut 60.80 1,890,000



Source of Christian statistics: Krantz, Les and Jim McCormick. The Peoplepedia: The Ultimate Reference on the American People, Henry Holt and Company: New York (1996), pg. 188: Table: "Top 10 Christian States"; "The table below shows where most religiously affiliated Christians... live, according to the Glenmary Research Center [1990 study]."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Links
Major Religions Ranked by Number of Adherents: Christianity - Christianity is ranked as the largest religion in the world. The "Christianity" section of the "Major Religions of the World" page briefly describes the classification of Christianity as a single religion, and what sub-groups are included within this statistical grouping.
Famous Christians

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Return to the "Largest Religious Communities" index page


This Christian geography and statistics web page is copyright ? 2000 by Adherents.com. Please address send comments, questions, etc. to webmaster@adherents.com.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_christian.html


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342558 - 02/16/04 07:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Dear Frog;
You hunt for the statistics and then make a list of the ten commandments and tell me which ones are the law of the land here. While you're at it tell me how the greatest society that ever existed on this planet is going to hell. If it is , it's not because of our sectarian ways. We have prospered because we have not allowed religion to thwart us.




I didn't say that the 10 Commandments were the law of the land. I said that according to what the bible says, Christians are supposed to obey God's laws, as well as the laws of the land in which we live.



--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (02/16/04 07:42 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRenegade8
Niggar please

Registered: 10/11/03
Posts: 386
Loc: Orange County
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342601 - 02/16/04 07:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I really want to stay out of this one, but just I have to ask 'cause you're a lawyer...

How do you reconcile the claim that this is a Christian country with the idea of separation of Church and State? The majority of the population may be Christians, but our government isn't supposed to have any religious affiliation.


--------------------
I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2342610 - 02/16/04 07:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
No, this is not a christian nation. I am not christian, and neither are MANY people I know. This nation is built on diversity.... melting pot remember????

Free Will... REMEMBER???? People can do whatever they want so long as it does not interfere with the free will of another. Who are they hurting by being gay? By what standard are their morals to be judged when they harm none? And if it harms none, do as ye will.

What exactly makes the BIBLE the almighty book of everything? God didn't write it. PEOPLE wrote it..common people. Who do you think embraced the Bible.. and perverted it to suit their middle man needs.. yes, the church. It may shock you to know that the BIBLE has been HEAVILY EDITED over the past 2,000 years. I do not wholeheartedly accept and believe everything I read from books, ESPECIALLY a 2,000 year old book that is the most hypocritical and debated book of all time.




Keep in mind that I am playing devil's advocate, but...

I am not playing devil's advocate for this purpose:

Our forefathers or whoever they were came here to the U.S. to be allowed to worship freely their God, without being forced to belong to the religion in England. This country was still founded based on a belief in God, however, they wanted to choose how to believe in God.

So, although the forefathers wanted to guarantee each person the right to worship however each person wants, the Declaration of Independence states:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

The drafters of this Declaration believed in God. We live in a predominantly Christian nation, even if of different denominations.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342613 - 02/16/04 07:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:

I didn't say that the 10 Commandments were the law of the land. I said that according to what the bible says, Christians are supposed to obey God's laws, as well as the laws of the land in which we live.






So then what's up with Bush?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342621 - 02/16/04 07:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, it's just too bad the declaration is a joke now.

And Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, etc.. were NOT christians.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Renegade8]
    #2342622 - 02/16/04 07:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Renegade420 said:
I really want to stay out of this one, but just I have to ask 'cause you're a lawyer...

How do you reconcile the claim that this is a Christian country with the idea of separation of Church and State? The majority of the population may be Christians, but our government isn't supposed to have any religious affiliation.




I didn't say that there was not supposed to be separation between church and state. I said that this is a predominantly Christian nation.

Most of the population can be Christian in a country that is supposed to have a separation of church and state, and yet there are all kinds of religions being practiced in the U.S. because we can each worship any way we want.

And see the statistics I posted.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2342628 - 02/16/04 07:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Quote:

Frog said:

I didn't say that the 10 Commandments were the law of the land. I said that according to what the bible says, Christians are supposed to obey God's laws, as well as the laws of the land in which we live.






So then what's up with Bush?




I have not followed Bush's antics. What about Bush? You'll have to tell me what he's up to. As I stated before, I don't follow the news or politics.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342640 - 02/16/04 08:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

My point is that the ten commandments is not the law of the land. 51% of the people who live in the USA are female. Does this make us a female nation? Please, list the 10 commandments and tell me which ones are the law of the land, one by one. How can 85% of the whole country be Christian when the highest percentage in any state is less than 80%? You stepped on your own dick here. And I still want you to show me how the 10 commandments is law.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Renegade8]
    #2342647 - 02/16/04 08:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, and "the government needs to step in and protect our children, who should not be exposed to the marriage between people of the same sex, even if this action blurs the line between church and state."

:lol:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342662 - 02/16/04 08:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
My point is that the ten commandments is not the law of the land. 51% of the people who live in the USA are female. Does this make us a female nation? Please, list the 10 commandments and tell me which ones are the law of the land, one by one. How can 85% of the whole country be Christian when the highest percentage in any state is less than 80%? You stepped on your own dick here. And I still want you to show me how the 10 commandments is law.




Once again, and maybe it's my fault somehow, but once again, I will reiterate that I DID NOT SAY THAT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE THE LAW OF THE LAND.

I said, according to the bible, Jesus told us to "render unto ceaser that which belongs to ceaser". Meaning, we are supposed to obey the laws of the country in which we live, as well as God's laws.

I AM NOT SAYING that the Ten Commandments are the law of the land!

(Is it me???)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2342673 - 02/16/04 08:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Seems like it is a joke now. With the patriot act, they can almost make anything a searchable warrant. This country isnt that old... it makes me thing their are going to be some more growing pains, and this is a sign of another one.


--------------------
What?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2342688 - 02/16/04 08:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Yeah, it's just too bad the declaration is a joke now.

And Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, etc.. were NOT christians.




Well, SOMEBODY believed in God. Go read the Declaration yourself! I copied and posted part of it!

(And will everyone keep in mind, I was playing devil's advocate, pursuant to fireworks' suggestion, because no one was coming on and saying why the government should legislate against same sex marriages. I don't really think that way.)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342719 - 02/16/04 08:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Right before he was crucified under pontias pilate :wink: . I wonder what he would have thought if he knew that the emperor was going to send his cronies to kill him. What did jesus do wrong? he was a heretic, he went against the state, so they killed him. But sadly our world is filled with this bitter irony...

Who is to say that a life that does not hurt another should not be allowed to be lived? Is that  after all, in a sense, killing that person in one form or another? Killing their spirit?


--------------------
What?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2342755 - 02/16/04 08:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, that was Jesus' karma. And, he had to fulfill prophesy.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2342809 - 02/16/04 08:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If we are a quote christian nation unquote than the 10 commandments would be the first and foremost laws. I understand that you conceded that the ten commandments weren't the law of the land. You also presented an impressive array of statistics that showed that the US was 85% christian and that Utah, the most Christian state, Was 79.6% christian. This is truly awe inspiring.

We are NOT NOT NOT a christian nation.

You have done a great job as a Devil's advocate. Or not. I've loved every minute of it. Psst, it's Caesar, but we knew who you meant


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2342818 - 02/16/04 08:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If we are a quote christian nation unquote than the 10 commandments would be the first and foremost laws.  I understand that you conceded that the ten commandments weren't the law of the land.  You also presented an impressive array of statistics that showed that the US was 85% christian and that Utah, the most Christian state, Was 79.6% christian.  This is truly awe inspiring.

We are NOT NOT NOT a christian nation.

You have done a great job as a Devil's advocate.  Or not.  I've loved every minute of it.  Psst, it's Caesar, but we knew who you meant




I didn't "concede" because I never made that statement in the first place. 

And on the Christian thing...are we just dabbling with semantics here???  I realize my error, if so, and I will conced this much, perhaps:

We are not a Christian nation, but a nation comprised mainly of Christians.  :razz: :lol:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2342919 - 02/16/04 09:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah verily and it is so


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2343216 - 02/16/04 10:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Quote:

Shroomism said:
Yeah, it's just too bad the declaration is a joke now.

And Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, etc.. were NOT christians.




Well, SOMEBODY believed in God. Go read the Declaration yourself! I copied and posted part of it!



Yes, they believed in God. That does not make them Christians. The above mentioned founding fathers were Deists, who believed that God set the universe in motion with the laws of physics to guide it. They did not believe in the Bible or in Jesus's divinity. In fact, during his presidency, Jefferson wrote a book in which he denied the divinity of Christ.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2343235 - 02/16/04 10:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting thoughts.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblesakura
Aussie Expat

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Japan
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2343415 - 02/16/04 11:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Wow! This could get explosive (remember to be nice everyone!)

As a "Christian", I don't feel that any government has the right to legislate morality. This is very much a personal issue between a person and their own Higher Power.

As far as 'eroding morals' is concerned... I don't think that legislation (or the lack of it) has any real impact on public morality (How many people do you know who have changed their opinions regarding marijuana because it has been legislated against).

Definately, in America, the 'Puritan Past' still has a major impact on modern policy decisions. I don't feel comfortable with this. Other western nations have moved further to the left in this regard (for example, England, Australia and the European Nations) and take a 'humanistic' rather than a 'Scriptural' approach much of the time.

Also, I don't think that it is really necessary to flame the scriptures in order to make your point on this issue. I don't really understand the pre-occupation a lot of members have with this (I have yet to read a thread violently denouncing Buddhism or the Sacred Hindu Texts...)


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 9 days, 15 hours
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2344560 - 02/17/04 06:32 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you everybody for your input. I sat for a while and thought about this last night and came to a conclusion. I can identify two fears that would cause somebody to vote against same sex marriages:

1) I am afraid that by allowing same sex marriages, I am giving up a control that the government has over the people. If I let this slide, what next... free love, legal drugs, world peace. We can't have that... no profits there.

2) Thinking about two people of the same sex together gives me the willies. I don't want to risk thinking about it, so I will outlaw it instead. What? My job is to represent all the people, even if I don't agree with them? Screw that, that type gives me the willies.

...and a third case, though not fear:

3) I have a really big ego. I can not be wrong. Bow down and lick my feet 'cause I'm in congress and I know what is good for you. If I can't legislate you into heaven, I will fry you in the chair and feel good knowing that you are burning in hell.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2344631 - 02/17/04 08:04 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Let's see here.. first off, it wasn't Caesar, it was Pontias Pilate. THAT was the easy one here.. :wink:

I find it amusing how when this topic is discussed HERE, it is more about what leads people to hold the views that they do instead of what view is "right" or "wrong". That definitely suggests something, right there... and is clearly something that is an individual's choice and is not for the government to get involved with.

Their IS suspossed to be a seperation of church and state. How many people are Christian or Muslim or worshippers of Odin isn't the issue (altough I DO find it amusing that of the top ten states that Frog posted, most all of them were small, Midwestern states.... 96% percent of people in Iowa are white. there isn't exactly a mix of culture in these states. hehe).

Anyways, the government has no right in making laws based on religious ideas. No one is being hurt by having gay marriage. If it was a cult (Edit: was previewing this and saw "culture" and then "cult"... hhhm....) that was killing people, there is obviously a difference, they are imposing on others free will. Well, the government is doing the same thing... if there was a religion for gays, their right to worship as they like would be getting infringed upon. Same fucking thing with the peyote churches....

Its fear and ignorance. Its rather simple.. and astounding how people can claim to be so Enlightened in this day but yet be so closeminded.

But hey, what do you expect from a government who doesn't govern itself out of existance because it would involve letting go of their power? Power addictions can't be filled... they have to be transcended. Then again... how many people are raised and educated (damn, there is that word again) to be in a position to do that?

Damn, I feel like I'm saying things that are incredibly obvious and that there is no point in even talking. *gags himself with his sock*
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblesakura
Aussie Expat

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Japan
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2344657 - 02/17/04 08:27 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
*gags himself with his sock*





"sock"???  Sure that wasn't a typo?  :lol:


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 9 days, 15 hours
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2344661 - 02/17/04 08:34 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> Its fear and ignorance. Its rather simple.. and astounding how people can claim to be so Enlightened in this day but yet be so closeminded.

That is the conclusion I finally came to as well.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: sakura]
    #2344688 - 02/17/04 08:54 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

*takes Spock out of his mouth and puts a sock in his mouth, in order to avoid looking like he made a mistake* :lol:

And "fear and ignorance" can make a better scapegoat than Satan can! :wink:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2344894 - 02/17/04 10:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Other than, "It is morally wrong", what is the reason not to allow gay couples to marry? I simply don't get it."

neither do i. the only reason is because like you said, it has to deal with morals being made into law.

"No one is being hurt by having gay marriage."

the only people who get angry and upset, or sad and depressed about this are imposing it on themselves. it is their ideas that are conflicting with their surroundings and thus not allowing themselves to go with the flow.

fear and ignorance....


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2345706 - 02/17/04 02:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i suspect that there are quite a few here who actually support legislation of moral values... for instance, helping the needy (welfare).


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: ]
    #2345730 - 02/17/04 02:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I support helping the needy out of pure egotistical motives. I'm a damn dirty druggie and will probably need welfare in the not too distant future (or so they tell me).


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: ]
    #2345772 - 02/17/04 03:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i suspect that there are quite a few here who actually support legislation of moral values... for instance, helping the needy (welfare).




Is that really legislation of moral values? How so? Is there a difference between a law being morally right and a law being passed because of other reasons? Wasn't it a New Deal law? Didn't it have something to do with the Depression?

Or was it passed because a book that has been around for awhile declared it immoral to NOT have the law?

I honestly see a difference....
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: ]
    #2345893 - 02/17/04 03:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i suspect that there are quite a few here who actually support legislation of moral values... for instance, helping the needy (welfare).



I see welfare in practical terms. It's to help people who've fallen on hard times get back on their feet. I don't think I'd support people being on welfare their whole lives, unless they were physically or mentally incapable of working. Also, there is not one social program called "welfare." It is a catch-all term for a number of different programs, one of which is known as "unemployment insurance," and if I'm not mistaken, that's one of the biggest welfare programs, along with food stamps and corporate welfare(which should be the first program we get rid of). I guess if you look at that as "helping the needy," then maybe it is, but I think of it as a safety net for when things go terribly wrong in your life.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2346954 - 02/17/04 07:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Is that really legislation of moral values? How so?

because the decision of whether or not to help the needy is a decision about personal morality. the decision to help the needy, like the decision to volunteer in community programs, or to donate to one's house of worship, is a personal moral issue which a person must decide for themself when, how, and to what extent they will avail themself, if at all. these are different from legal obligations. we have no legal obligation to help other people; only not to harm them.

people can and should be compelled by force to do no harm, but they should not be forced to do good.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: ]
    #2349862 - 02/18/04 01:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

But didn't the government set up welfare out of motivations other than simply moral ones?

The difference here is that the ban on gay marriage is ONLY out of the feeling of upholding a moral responsibility... the fact that it isn't even anything that can rationally be argued as a moral responsibility says a lot.

At least helping out poor people represents an actual, strong case for moral responsibility... of course, that isn't the issue. Isn't it more of an economical benefit that the government cares about? That and maybe fighting crime.... hehe. *shrugs*

You've definitely brought up a good point. :thumbup:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2349931 - 02/18/04 01:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Welfare was intended to strengthen the socio/economic factors of the United States. Homosexuality has little to nothing to do with whether our social/economic progress gets better or not.

I think this is just an issue that a lot of the old people cant handle. Not trying to disrminate by age or anything... cause im sure there are a lot of young idiots too... but i think you know what im sayin :wink:


--------------------
What?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2350047 - 02/18/04 02:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, the world has been going to Hell in a handbasket for generations now... if you know what I'm saying. :lol:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2350389 - 02/18/04 03:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, it has. lol. Its sad that people are making so much of a fuss about it, the government is wasting time and the people are lagging behind. The global drag... LoL.


--------------------
What?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSoulecho
Stranger
Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 27
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2350747 - 02/18/04 04:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Anyways, this is a Christian nation. Most of us believe in the bible. We're not talking here about stoning people for masturbation. We're talking about a severe lack in morals, when someone has sex with someone of the same sex. It says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin. I don't think we should stone homosexuals, but they should not be allowed to marry since it is a sin.




Is that so?

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm

ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

That said, I am gay. My partner and I could go down to a few churches here in town and get "married" if we so choose to do so. Nothing stops us from taking those vows right now if we wanted to. Gays want the legal protections that are afforded to straight couples... In other words EQUAL TREATMENT UNDER LAW.

Nothing more, nothing less.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 9 days, 15 hours
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Soulecho]
    #2350800 - 02/18/04 04:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> want the legal protections that are afforded to straight couples... In other words EQUAL TREATMENT UNDER LAW.

Exactly.  No different than when black American citizens demanded the right to the same protections and treatment under the law as white American citizens.  Discrimination is discrimination be it upon race, gender, drug use, or sexual orientation.

When I think about kissing another guy (I am male), it twists my stomach into knots.  I know that it isn't for me, and it makes me queezy thinking about it.  I cannot help but imagine that for gay people they feel the exact same way about a straight relationship.  How could I live with myself if I forced people to live a life that I cannot imagine for myself.  Just because something makes me uneasy, doesn't mean that I have to go on some hellbent crusade to stop others from doing it.

Once I master my own life, my own faults, and my own morals, then I can start to worry about what other people are doing.  Until then, I prefer to mind my own business.  It is unfortunate that others are not mature enough to get over their own failings and instead decide to fix other peoples.  :frown:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSoulecho
Stranger
Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 27
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Seuss]
    #2350965 - 02/18/04 05:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The whole thing that pisses me off about the whole marriage thing is that back in the day, people were using the bible as justification for slavery, and during the womens suffrage movement, people were using the bible as justification to deny women the right to vote. and here we are 100 years later, same bullshit.

People dont learn  :shake:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Soulecho]
    #2351082 - 02/18/04 05:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Right on. To those who think this is a Christian nation, I suggest reading this:

http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm

BTW, I have yet to hear any reasonable explanation for why gay marriage should not be legal.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Soulecho]
    #2351083 - 02/18/04 05:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Soulecho said:
Quote:

Anyways, this is a Christian nation. Most of us believe in the bible. We're not talking here about stoning people for masturbation. We're talking about a severe lack in morals, when someone has sex with someone of the same sex. It says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin. I don't think we should stone homosexuals, but they should not be allowed to marry since it is a sin.




Is that so?

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm

ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

That said, I am gay. My partner and I could go down to a few churches here in town and get "married" if we so choose to do so. Nothing stops us from taking those vows  right now if we wanted to. Gays want the legal protections that are afforded to straight couples... In other words EQUAL TREATMENT UNDER LAW.

Nothing more, nothing less.




Um, before I go read that thing, what is the reason for which I am reading it? 

And you can be gay and get married, for all I care.  I am not playing devil's advocate today.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2351123 - 02/18/04 05:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm particularly fond if this statement:

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSoulecho
Stranger
Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 27
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2352906 - 02/19/04 02:39 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

actualy, I cut and pasted the part I wanted to bring attention to, i just posted the link to cite sources  :smile:

I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that contrary to your statement, the US is not a christian nation, nor has it ever been. Unless im misunderstanding somthing and you dont actualy believe that  :blush:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSoulecho
Stranger
Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 27
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2353034 - 02/19/04 03:05 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Right on. To those who think this is a Christian nation, I suggest reading this:

http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm

BTW, I have yet to hear any reasonable explanation for why gay marriage should not be legal. 







The only justification I've ever seen from opponents of gay marriage (aside from the typical fire and brimstone predictions of civilization collapsing, which aren't justification at all) is Leviticus 18:22, which isn't much justification itself if you take in in context with some of the other passages from Leviticus.

And how to hijack this thread, I'd like to leave you all with some words from the great Robert Anton Wilson about the book of Leviticus :laugh:


ODORS PLEASING TO THE LORD

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a U.S. radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.

Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific Bible laws and how to follow them:

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality? I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

PS-- my appologies if it seems like I am hijacking the thread, but if people are going to use the bible as justification for denying my civil rights, then im going to put the bible in the context it belongs in  :razz:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 12 days
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Soulecho]
    #2353098 - 02/19/04 03:15 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I already agreed with someone else that it's not a Christian nation, but a nation mostly comprised of Christians.  Was merely a matter of semantics, not semetics.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 9 days, 15 hours
Re: Legislating Moral Values? [Re: Frog]
    #2354219 - 02/19/04 11:55 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> PS-- my appologies if it seems like I am hijacking the thread, but if people are going to use the bible as justification for denying my civil rights, then im going to put the bible in the context it belongs in

No worries.  I think your points are valid and add to the discussion.  My moral values may not be the same as your moral values.  When our beliefs are so different, why must I try to force you to follow me by changing the law or constitution?  If my moral values are so damn good, then people should be flocking to me on their own without me having to pass laws, toss 'em in jail, etc.  (The 'you' and 'me' above are figurative... not literal to what has been posted.  I'm not judging your morals, or mine for that matter.)

My very close Christian friend would say that everything you posted is OT and has been superceeded by the NT.  :smile:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Legislating morality.
( 1 2 all )
TheHateCamel 1,587 34 09/05/05 03:14 PM
by BlueCoyote
* Are morals subjective?
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 5,574 35 04/24/03 07:58 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* becoming free of morality
( 1 2 3 4 all )
SneezingPenis 6,521 72 09/24/06 09:32 PM
by Icelander
* is homosexual behavior spiritual?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Schwammel 5,251 79 07/14/06 04:36 PM
by Schwammel
* Question for moral objectivists
( 1 2 all )
silversoul7 3,588 31 06/14/03 12:42 PM
by NewToTrippin
* What is the opposite position to moral relatavism? Moonshoe 911 6 03/26/06 03:25 PM
by EternalCowabunga
* God Thinks Gay People Are An Abomination
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )
KingOftheThing 8,813 187 09/26/04 06:25 AM
by Diploid
* Homosexuality and its Cause(s)
( 1 2 3 4 all )
DiploidM 5,434 73 10/26/04 05:11 PM
by kbilly

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,559 topic views. 1 members, 0 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2022 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.074 seconds spending 0.013 seconds on 18 queries.