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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19740225 -

Smokey420 said:
Trust me Zappa, I know my education doesn't mean shit better then most, it's why I'm working at a steel mill, with allot of student debt.
But I'm not the uneducated ghetto black guy you seem to stereotype me as.
What education do you have again?


I have a bachelors in Psychology but my real education is 35+ years working, most of which is as an employer.


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: EntheogenicJourney]
    #19740346 -

EntheogenicJourney said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
EntheogenicJourney said:

https://www.lp.org/issues/environment Check that link out it provides a good free market perspective on how free enterprise is better equipped than the state to protect land. As for child labor laws it would still be illegal to hire children for dangerous factory work although they would be free to sell lemonade on the corner without statist thugs demanding licenses and taxing it.


I will read the link you gave me later on, but putting the environmental issues aside for just a moment, how child labor could possibly be illegal in a purely libertarian society?

Who would impose and enforce this law if not the government?


Why the people that is the point in a libertarian society there is no state or corporate coercion just voluntary business transactions. Now obviously I don't think a pure libertarian society will exist with the current political climate in the US however if we can just make the incremental changes needed to show people what more liberty and the free market is capable of I doubt anyone would want to go back to stateism.


But what if a dangerous factory decides to employ children and the children have bad parents who don't give a fuck?  Lets even say these children are being abused.

It's easy to say "the people" would help them but which people in particular?

I really like the idea of libertarianism believe it or not.  I am certainly not a statist or communist.

Its just that when I really think about all the implications realistically it is not feasible.  It is essentially anarchism and that has never worked just like communism has never worked.

Somewhere in the middle is the only thing practical in a world full of greedy and power-hungry people for without checks and balances the good people always loose whether to a dictatorship with communism or an abusive corporatocracy with libertarianism.

Governments are corrupt because power corrupts but that's the same reason corporations are corrupt.


Why would a modern 21st century factory ever do such a thing? Children are very unskilled workers and the modern factory would be much worse off for having employed them not to mention community backlash lawsuits etc.


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19740763 -

Quote:
There are more people today living in horrible conditions than even existed on the planet for all but the last barely 1% of human existance


This is a completely false statement.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/StandardsofLivingandModernEconomicGrowth.html

If you have time i suggest watching this short presentation, about 20 minutes long.


And i suggest this book as well:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Rational-Optimist-Prosperity-Evolves/dp/0061452068/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395686321&sr=8-1&keywords=the+rational+optimist

By almost any possible metric, now it the best time in human history to be alive.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19744163 -

Thanks for the condescension, I suppose in your little fantasy world everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. As a matter of fact, I am against murdering people for their political views. I don't like the KKK, but I support their right to exist, it's the first amendment. You don't need a first amendment to protect polite speech, if a KKK member does something to physically harm another then they should be punished for it.

My main issue though is that it never stops at those people, just look at the Nazis and the Soviets for for a clear example as to how this all plays out. I don't care how much you deny it, all socialists are the same at the core.

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? *DELETED* [Re: setb]
    #19744283 -

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove

Edited by EddYerb (03/25/14 12:47 PM)

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: EddYerb]
    #19745266 -

I love Milton Friedman.  I loath thugs.


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19745292 -

zappaisgod said:
I love Milton Friedman.  I loath thugs.


:raisemyglass:


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19745496 -

zappaisgod said:
I love Milton Friedman.  I loath thugs.


:kaneclap:


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19746403 -

A lot of thugs and CIA agents were necessary to implement Milton Friedman's economics in Chile. A lot of people in the middle were killed and a lot of babies were stolen. It did seem to work though.

    Allende was elected and Pinochet was a dictator who was facing charges for human rights violations when he conveniently died.

    Chile has a pretty good economy now, but it is all based on copper mining.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #19746453 -

Brian Jones said:
A lot of thugs and CIA agents were necessary to implement Milton Friedman's economics in Chile. A lot of people in the middle were killed and a lot of babies were stolen. It did seem to work though.

    Allende was elected and Pinochet was a dictator who was facing charges for human rights violations when he conveniently died.

    Chile has a pretty good economy now, but it is all based on copper mining.


Milton Friedman had nothing to do with any coup in Chile.  And no it isn't all based on copper mining


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19746742 -

Milton Friedman had nothing to do with the coup in Chile, is one way of phrasing it. Another way of phrasing it is that Milton Friedman would have had nothing to do with Chile if it had not been for the coup.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: EddYerb]
    #19747765 -

"We accept every thing that has been said of the advantages of Free Trade. The powers of production will increase, the tax imposed upon the country by protective duties will disappear, all commodities will be sold at a cheaper price. And what, again, says Ricardo? “That labour being equally a commodity, will equally sell at a cheaper price” — that you will have it for very little money indeed, just as you will have pepper and salt. And then, in the same way as all other laws of political economy will receive an increased force, a surplus of truth, by the realisation of Free Trade — in the same way the law of population, as exposed by Malthus, will under the reign of Free Trade develop itself in as fine dimensions as can possibly be desired. Thus you have to choose: Either you must disavow the whole of political economy as it exists at present, or you must allow that under the freedom of trade the whole severity of the laws of political economy will be applied to the working classes. Is that to say that we are against Free Trade? No, we are for Free Trade, because by Free Trade all economical laws, with their most astounding contradictions, will act upon a larger scale, upon a greater extent of territory, upon the territory of the whole earth; and because from the uniting of all these contradictions into a single group, where they stand face to face, will result the struggle which will itself eventuate in the emancipation of the proletarians." ~Karl Marx

"From a correct Marxian point of view … all measures designed to restrain, to regulate and to improve capitalism were simply "petty-bourgeois" nonsense … True socialists should not place any obstacles in the way of capitalist evolution. For only the full maturity of capitalism could bring about socialism. It is not only vain, but harmful to the interests of the proletarians to resort to such measures." ~Ludwig von Mises


--------------------
"People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna

"You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life.
And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: setb]
    #19750416 -

setb said:
Thanks for the condescension, I suppose in your little fantasy world everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. As a matter of fact, I am against murdering people for their political views. I don't like the KKK, but I support their right to exist, it's the first amendment. You don't need a first amendment to protect polite speech, if a KKK member does something to physically harm another then they should be punished for it.

My main issue though is that it never stops at those people, just look at the Nazis and the Soviets for for a clear example as to how this all plays out. I don't care how much you deny it, all socialists are the same at the core.


Socialism is an economic model, not a political or social structure.
I don't condone the killing of Nazis or the KKK, I was just being honest of what I thought would happen in hypothetical situation, but of course you want to throw words down my throat and use any chance you can get to rage against an economic model you know nothing about.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19750583 -

Socialism is not simply an economic model.  It can only be enacted through force.


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19750694 -

Maybe if you're a Marxist, or a Stalinist.
Otherwise you're wrong.
Socialism is a broad term you seem to only relate to Marxism.
Its a big world out there Zappa, gotta learn to broaden your definition.
If socialism is the defined enemy of your ideology, you should at-least learn more about it.

I know you must have grown up during the red scare, but you should try to at least  distinguish facts from cold war propaganda.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19750722 -

Smokey420 said:
Maybe if you're a Marxist, or a Stalinist.
Otherwise you're wrong.
Socialism is a broad term you seem to only relate to Marxism.
Its a big world out there Zappa, gotta learn to broaden your definition.
If socialism is the defined enemy of your ideology, you should at-least learn more about it.

I know you must have grown up during the red scare, but you should try to at least  distinguish facts from cold war propaganda.


How's it working out in Cuba and Venezuela?  Socialism cannot exist without a top down imposition of force.


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19750750 -

I'm a proud Canadian...so I guess that makes me a proud socialist.

Seems to work for a slew of other countries as well...ie, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Belgium.  Free Healthcare, Increased literacy, subsidized schooling, more incentive for small business... Not sure why some people so vehemently have issues with Socialism.  It's not perfect by any means, and it's not for everyone.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19750764 -

zappaisgod said:
Smokey420 said:
Maybe if you're a Marxist, or a Stalinist.
Otherwise you're wrong.
Socialism is a broad term you seem to only relate to Marxism.
Its a big world out there Zappa, gotta learn to broaden your definition.
If socialism is the defined enemy of your ideology, you should at-least learn more about it.

I know you must have grown up during the red scare, but you should try to at least  distinguish facts from cold war propaganda.


How's it working out in Cuba and Venezuela?  Socialism cannot exist without a top down imposition of force.


Bad in Cuba, but that's Marxism. Not to mention US sanctions on Cuba have turned it into a 3rd world country. 
Venezuela was doing well while Chavez was still alive, I don't have much hope for the current guy, as he seems far too authoritarian for my taste.

I could also make the same argument against Capitalism though, as it requires a state to enforce property ownership.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19750780 -

Do i have to point this out again "Libertarian Syndclist" Notice the Libertarian in there. We strongly disagree with Marx's idea of a "temporary dictatorship of the proletariat" Or the need of a state all together.

Socialism: An economic model based on common ownership.
Marxism: A political ideology based of the witting of Karl Marx.
Stalinism: State capitalism labeled as Communism.
Communism: an Economic and political ideology.
Syndicalism: ideology based on workers common ownership of their factory or business.
   


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA

Edited by Smokey420 (03/26/14 05:20 PM)

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19750835 -

Smokey420 said:
zappaisgod said:
Smokey420 said:
Maybe if you're a Marxist, or a Stalinist.
Otherwise you're wrong.
Socialism is a broad term you seem to only relate to Marxism.
Its a big world out there Zappa, gotta learn to broaden your definition.
If socialism is the defined enemy of your ideology, you should at-least learn more about it.

I know you must have grown up during the red scare, but you should try to at least  distinguish facts from cold war propaganda.


How's it working out in Cuba and Venezuela?  Socialism cannot exist without a top down imposition of force.


Bad in Cuba, but that's Marxism. Not to mention US sanctions on Cuba have turned it into a 3rd world country.


No they haven't.  They trade with the entire rest of the world. 
Quote:
 
Venezuela was doing well while Chavez was still alive, I don't have much hope for the current guy, as he seems far too authoritarian for my taste.


They are exactly the same guy.  Chavez just had the good sense to die before the effects of his policies were manifested.
Quote:


I could also make the same argument against Capitalism though, as it requires a state to enforce property ownership.


It does not require a state enforce property ownership.


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