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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: husmmoor]
    #18450975 -

husmmoor said:
Icelander said:
From what I understand the buddhists don't know anything about ultimate reality and why buddha never addressed this issue, instead focusing on the cause of suffering and it's cure.  What is this basic truth you speak of? How I understand it is they believe everything we can "know" is a creation of the mind and so an illusion and dream like or ultimately empty.


I dont mind discussing Buddhist philosophy but I'm not sure what the point is re: Becker. Are you saying that Buddha is in agreement with Becker that people need to find some level of happy illusion to exist on?

As I said Buddhist epistemology is complex (just for one example difference between relative and ultimate truth) and it was a crude categorization for the purpose of understanding what I think is a crucial difference, to say that the Buddha is a realist. I don't mind calling it something else. But to start with, the four noble truths. If we get very philosophical about it and act like beat-Buddhists we can perhaps say these statements represent a relative truth and not an absolute truth. Is this it? And what about all the stuff about karma, rebirth, levels of existence, levels of insights attainable, etc?



My op refers to the Buddha and Becker agreeing on the cause of our suffering. Impermanence and our inability or unwillingness to accept that.  I'm sure they agree in other areas too but that's not what I'm referring to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18450983 -

in the meantime, ice, I have to interject that Buddha did not have a cure for suffering nor a cure for the cause of suffering,
but he did have reliable treatments for these chronic conditions - generally described as "unsatisfactoriness", and those treatments for this chronic condition resolve as contemplation (meditation)


Aren't you just mincing words. If a treatment is successful cannot we say, at least in many cases that a cure has been had.  Was not the Buddha himself cured of suffering due to his lack of attachment to impermanent and illusionary phenomena?  I think the Buddhists in general claim that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18451018 -

redgreenvines said:
I totally get what whitebeard is saying WRT contents of consciousness (which is the mind experiencing through a period of time),
but to be more direct I call it mental contents, and for the most part there is not much distinction (in consciousness or in mind) between
1. mental contents that are sensational (i.e. new environmental sensations) compared to
2. mental contents that are from memory
(the only difference is the origin of the feed for the signal pulse trains - one being a recollection/perception and the other being environmental sensory)

I think both victor and whitebeard actually can agree that the mental contents arise and pass away after a brief existence, and that these mental contents do relate to brain activity with localized characteristics (i.e. visual objects have a visual cortex signature activity and auditory objects have an auditory cortex activity - regardless of the source being from exernal events - sensory, or memory events - perceptual)

in the meantime, ice, I have to interject that Buddha did not have a cure for suffering nor a cure for the cause of suffering,
but he did have reliable treatments for these chronic conditions - generally described as "unsatisfactoriness", and those treatments for this chronic condition resolve as contemplation (meditation)


Yes, White Beard (and he can answer for himself) appears to be saying that consciousness is like an empty vessel that is filled with sensations and perceptions. This is quite an idea.

I can't agree on anything unless I know what "mental contents" means. I'm not convinced that consciousness is part of the mind. The mind seems to be an algorithm calculating device, with the consciousness that which watches this device in operation.

I'm always amazed at the way Buddha conducts his teachings. Modern psychology has a different way of doing therapy, and I am not convinced that it's more effective.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18451023 -

ice, there is no expectation of a cure, when treating a chronic condition,
where you can only forsee temporary relief from the affliction

when we say cure, we mean that the disease can be vanquished
that is not possible with intrinsic unsatisfactoriness which is not vanquish-able and is a charaicteristic in all things


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18451036 -

show me a Buddhist doctrine that says unsatisfactoriness is intrinsic to all things
and I'll show you 10 that say there is no such intrinsic quality to any thing


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18451041 -

OK I see that.

That hardly matters anyway in relation to my OP and agrees with Beckers ideas that impermanence anxiety is for life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18451060 -

Ice, do you believe that death anxiety can be momentarily fully knocked out but returns, or that it can never be fully knocked out? It seems like one of those two things must be true.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: viktor]
    #18451077 -

I personally don't know.  My guess is that because we use shields to avoid direct confrontation with our DA that it often seems to be absent. 

For example I can go trout fishing on a stream in the backcountry and get so absorbed in that activity that I'm not thinking about or anxious about my death. I'm in a fully absorbing flow state and so have a really great shield to my DA.  Sooner or later though that activity or my absorption in it is disrupted and my anxieties return.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18451089 -

And in those moments when anxiety returns, is there a confrontation?
If there is a confrontation, does anxiety diminish or worsen over time?

"dissolved in the clear light of awareness"

I've seen that idea in Buddhism before. Have you found any truth to it?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18451107 -

For me death anxiety is the only meaningful challenge.

I think I go tramping where you go trout fishing - because that gives me the sense of absorption. I used to get it on the sports field, but in the hills and mountains is where it's at for me now.

There's drugs, fighting, adventure and women, but the challenge in them is just the death one in a different form.

Or so it seems to me. The bliss is what I'm after. I do wonder if there's value in suffering death anxiety though.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Kickle]
    #18451112 -

Kickle said:
And in those moments when anxiety returns, is there a confrontation?
If there is a confrontation, does anxiety diminish or worsen over time?

"dissolved in the clear light of awareness"

I've seen that idea in Buddhism before. Have you found any truth to it?


The confrontation imo is usually very short as we quickly grasp for another shield. (our doings)

And yes my DA seems to be slightly diminished.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: viktor]
    #18451118 -

viktor said:
For me death anxiety is the only meaningful challenge.

I think I go tramping where you go trout fishing - because that gives me the sense of absorption. I used to get it on the sports field, but in the hills and mountains is where it's at for me now.

There's drugs, fighting, adventure and women, but the challenge in them is just the death one in a different form.

Or so it seems to me. The bliss is what I'm after. I do wonder if there's value in suffering death anxiety though.



You and I seem to be on the same page.  DA is my only challenge and most all my energies are directed there. For better or worse.

I go tramping too and look. I love hunting arrowheads or bird/animal watching.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: viktor]
    #18451154 -

viktor said:
...
I can't agree on anything unless I know what "mental contents" means. I'm not convinced that consciousness is part of the mind. The mind seems to be an algorithm calculating device, with the consciousness that which watches this device in operation...


all the fragments of any momentary experience are the mental contents
all the mental objects together at any moment in any particular mind are the mental contents of that mind for that moment.

(I am not answering for whitebeard who may be on the right track in this)

the brain is the physical operating system of the mind
the frontal cortex gets copies of what is interesting in the other regions (sensory areas which also include memory of sensory events)
and yes,
an algorithm of a sort (not digital) is at play in determining what is interesting, i.e. what effectively gets copied into the frontal cortex, if it is not too busy.
the observed nature of that algorithm is that the strongest associated objects push out the lesser ones, and the observed nature of strong associations are those patterns that have been most repeated, i.e. those that have become habit

- the frontal cortex holds onto what is of interest, by cueing feedback support from other structures, to be used as reference anchors to the pattern (corresponding to the mental objects perceived fragments):
theses anchors are
related colors (visual feedback), related rhythms (cerebellar feedback), related words (frontal and auditory feedback), related pain or pleasure (proprioceptive, and pre-frontal (qualitative) feedback).

when attention is achieved in this way, other signal pulse trains have difficulty in being transferred to the frontal cortex.
fatigue will occur in the specific frontal cortex feedback (~ 3 seconds usually) and so the attention will tend to drift from the objects of interest, unless more resonance can be brought into play, usually by having more related memories. (hence the value of practice or repetition)

an underlying algorithm to all processing is associativity, i.e. what is like another thing (shape, tone, flavor etc.) and or what is recalled from experiences that included other similar objects, like places, people, times of day or year, all of which can be associative keys that bind memories together.

(how that algorithm works is another fascinating discussion)


ok, by virtue of copying from sensory cortical structures to frontal cortex, at least 2 co-incident patterns of the same thing may be happening in the brain for anything that you are interested in.

the frontal cortex is not the seat of the consciousness, the whole cortex is that, since the whole cortex is involved in memory formation and in associative recollection of fragments of experience.

but it does appear to many people as if it is a kind of 'watcher' since it is actively following (filling with copies of ) the interesting stuff, and using resonance to keep the interesting stuff central - but it is not really separate from the whole brain, as memory includes frontal cortex events equally with other events (again that other fascinating discussion about memory formation).

prefrontal cortex may even seem to be a 3rd entity, but it is not some superconcsciousness, it is also integral, contributing a reflection of overall quality of experience (like values - but this morality is biological or pain-pleasure linked) - sort of the contributor of systemic judgments back into the overall stream of consciousness that becomes a string of memories.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18451161 -

Icelander said:
...  DA is my only challenge and most all my energies are directed there. For better or worse.

...


if you can do this with some tranquility, it can spread into something of wider value


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18451197 -

Maybe you also had the realisation that your life pattern was based around fighting DA and you didn't know it? For me, there's a clear pattern - if my life gets comfortable, there'll be a new drug, new adventure, new woman, new thought experiment, and in hindsight it was all the same thing.

Or perhaps drugs and women are where you start if DA just fucks you straight away (I think 80%  of the population just straight out never think about it until they die).


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18451202 -

That is an epic post and I will need to consider it at length to give any worthwhile response.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: viktor]
    #18451295 -

:thumbup:
I had this same realization. I was fucked up but was not sure why so often was spinning my wheels trying to find a cause. Now I believe I have the cause and this simplifies my struggles.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18451298 -

redgreenvines said:
Icelander said:
...  DA is my only challenge and most all my energies are directed there. For better or worse.

...


if you can do this with some tranquility, it can spread into something of wider value



Tranquility/acceptance is the method. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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