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InvisibleRavus
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The Buddha was a Fraud
    #4148500 - 05/08/05 12:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

1. Life is ultimately pain, chaos and death for all living, perceiving creatures.
2. Our impulsive and instinctual fear and loathing of these three aspects of life cause us suffering and unhappiness.
3. Natural selection has created subjective suffering for the sole reason of causing us unhappiness, but there is a way to overcome it.
4. Suffering and unhappiness are overcome by not only accepting pain, chaos and death, but embracing and loving as you would love the highest points of life.

The greatest fear among society is the spontaneous outbreak of madness, Nihilism and acceptance. If we learned to love suffering, what solace would we need from the religious authorities? If we accepted life's suffering and pain as the rocks and dirt do, what power would be left for the governmental authorities to abuse?

The Buddha says we overcome suffering by overcoming desire, but what does that leave of art, of chaos and of love? Humanity is expressive desire, and even enlightenment is just a delusional form of emptiness. Bathing in the glow of chaos, of meaninglessness, of our eventual demise is the true Nirvana.

When people suffer a traumatic experience, they dissociate, block it out, or ultimately just give up and let time wash their errors away, when in the stream ahead of them another traumatic experience looms closer and closer. We cannot escape trauma and suffering any more than we can escape time itself.

Yet these experiences that we so often try to forget, cry about, look back at with remorse, are the ones that teach us the most about our reality. It's easy to be enlightened if you do nothing besides meditate all day and drink water from the stream, but what does a man who just had his house burned down, his wife and children die and his dog shot by American invaders do with his cessation of desire?

We have evolved so that our consciousness can morph our brain at any instant, if you have the love of chaos to do it. Ultimately, it is the fear of change and death that is the most harmful aspect of humanity, yet it is precisely this that religion and authority have sprung from. It is their collar around our necks that they control us with, and they know if we ever learn to love pain, they will die.

They distract us with rather pointless issues of more chaos and death, such as wars, criminalization of victimless crimes, and financial problems, but what does this matter to those in power? Do you really think the government cares about money and drugs as anything more than a distraction to keep all those who would rebel focused on changing a few small aspects of this pointless and failed control system?

Quote:

The greatest danger that always hovered over humanity and still hovers over it is the eruption of madness - which means the eruption of arbitrariness in feeling, seeing and hearing, the enjoyment of the mind's lack of discipline, the joy in human unreason. Not truth and certainty are the opposite of the world of the madman, but the universality and the universal binding force of a faith; in sum, the non-arbitrary character of judgements... Thus the virtuous intellects are needed - oh, let me use the most unambiguous word - what is needed is virtuous stupidity, stolid metronomes for the slow spirit, to make sure that the faithful of the great shared faith stay together and continue their dance... We others are the exception and the danger - and we need eternally to be opposed. - Well, there actually are things to be said in favor of the exception, provided that it never wants to become the rule.
-Friedrich Nietzsche




Perhaps there will be a day when Nihilism is the great escape to madness this world needs, and Nietzsche is regarded as the intelligent prophet rather than the delusional idols we have worshipped for so long.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4148632 - 05/08/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Perhaps there will be a day when Nihilism is the great escape to madness this world needs, and Nietzsche is regarded as the intelligent prophet rather than the delusional idols we have worshipped for so long.




One can dream...


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4148817 - 05/08/05 01:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Close to the edge...aren't you?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4148842 - 05/08/05 01:44 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

One can hope, my honky friend.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4148874 - 05/08/05 01:53 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Love suffering or accept suffering?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4148894 - 05/08/05 02:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
Hunter S. Thompson




Thompson- a modern day Jesus, minus the bullshit.

Jesus was probably just going through a phase anyway, and the Romans terminated him in the middle of it so that his sheep could claim it would've gone on forever. I bet if Jesus had lived a full life though, he would've eventually became old, judgemental and condescending, like everyone else who hates the abandonment of old useless rituals and beliefs.

And the true irony of this is those who become condescending and traditional are simply following those who once abandoned useless old rituals themselves. Because of this, what was once new must yet again be abandoned.

But no one can ever embrace the chaos of this, or find the humor in the idiocy of the "traditional" ones who would be so quick to judge others.

Quote:

Whoever has overthrown an existing law of custom has always first been accounted a bad man: but when, as did happen, the law could not afterwards be reinstated and this fact was accepted, the predicate gradually changed; - history treats almost exclusively of these bad men who subsequently became good men!
-Friedrich Nietzsche




--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Jellric]
    #4148901 - 05/08/05 02:05 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What is acceptance besides simply sitting there, staring off into space and ignoring the death and chaos all around you?

You will get nowhere but frustrated fighting death- it'd be like pushing against the ground itself.

You will simply become complacent accepting death- but why accept mediocrity? We are part of the inevitable and beautiful forces of life, and life itself does not accept mediocrity, so why should our egos?

You must learn to love death. It is more holy than any prophet that has gone before us, more accepting than any religion or philosophy, more generous than any other force in existence. Death and chaos are what gives birth to everything that has come before, is existing now and will be created after this fleeting moment.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4148946 - 05/08/05 02:29 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I see...over the edge. Sorry.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4149002 - 05/08/05 02:53 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Ravus, your words strike very true to me. But it isn't clear to me what, overall, you see in chaos?

It's true, we must stop denying and repressing chaos and death. Only once we embrace chaos can we find order in it. The kind of order where all options of action are possibilities for us, and we mindfully choose that which *best* appeases chaos--inaction. Resistance of entropy by being and nothing more. Being, in perfect balance.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
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Truth.....? [Re: Ravus]
    #4149083 - 05/08/05 03:19 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I bet if Jesus had lived a full life though, he would've eventually became old, judgemental and condescending, like everyone else who hates the abandonment of old useless rituals and beliefs.



.
.
I will make that bet with you, but MAYBE you will choose not to pay up now(perhaps, not in this lifetime?)..... 
----But, all I will ask in return for payment of this bet would be a smile....)    :muppet:
.
So, I have two questions about your hypothetical bet....
.
1)  Of what "rituals" did Jesus Christ have....?
.
2)  And what part of his "beliefs" were  "useless"....?
.
3)  Of what reasons would Jesus get "judgemental and condescending"....?    (He saved people)....  :wink:
.
4)  Define "useless"....
.
5)  "like everyone else who hates"....  HHhhhmmmm.....  :confused:
.
.
.
.
This one made me laugh.....!    :lol:
"he would've eventually became old"
.
You are as OLD as you have ever been in your ENTIRE PHYSICAL LIFE at the moment you get to this point....  =====> X
:shocked:  :smirk:
(and you can read it over and over again, and it will be true every time....)  :tongue:


Blessings....!  :heartpump:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4149312 - 05/08/05 05:32 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

even enlightenment is just a delusional form of emptiness. Bathing in the glow of chaos, of meaninglessness, of our eventual demise is the true Nirvana.


Umm, no enligtenment is not a delusional form of emptiness at all, the mind is discovered to be naturally empty when free from those dark clouds of ignorant, delusional states, the emptiness does not refer to some nihilistic view, its just that everything is empty of all the qualities of permenance and self-existence that we project onto everything, the empty state which is realized is not some negative view as our english language would decieve us into beliveing, it is the vast emptiness which is pregenant with the infinte potential to manifest. Free from self-existence means you are in the knowlege of interdependance, you know that everything is interdependant upon everthing else, and nothing manfests independantly of itself, this way you come to the core understanding.

Bathing in the glow of meaningless chaos is total nihilsm and an extreme form lacking in responsibilty for ones actions. The fact is that the realization of emptiness/inifinty gives life meaning becuase we know the nature of life and our minds, so we are free from the suffering of our delusional perception of reality. True Nirvana is freedom from suffering. The Buddha was never some icon of worship, the statues of the Buddha are just symbols which represent our own enligthened nature, he is never viewed as some Godlike being to be worshiped, the statues serve only as a reminder of the potential of a human being to become fully awake.

You are mistaken as to what the Buddha taught if you belive that he was a fraud, i suggest you checkup and do some reading on the real meaning of emptiness and freedom from suffering before you continue with this line of thinking.


Edited by egghead1 (05/08/05 09:22 AM)


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4149450 - 05/08/05 08:53 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You must learn to love death. It is more holy than any prophet that has gone before us, more accepting than any religion or philosophy, more generous than any other force in existence. Death and chaos are what gives birth to everything that has come before, is existing now and will be created after this fleeting moment.



Only in a metaphorical sense. It is good to accept death as an inevitable part of human life, but that doesn't mean we should all become fascinated by it.
Death and chaos should be embraced, but by no means revered. Embracing death & chaos is no reason not to do anything about needless suffering. Moral relativism has hit its peak when we as humans fail to be able to feel empathy for other humans we have never seen but directly affect (by buying their goods at low prices, by supporting our government's war on them, etc.).

Embracing chaos and death, to me, is secondary to embracing the fact that we as humans are one. We are one species of animal, subject to the same mechanisms of wanting love, acceptance, challenges, food, shelter, health and drink.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: egghead1]
    #4149455 - 05/08/05 09:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Good post, eggo!  :thumbup:


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4149479 - 05/08/05 09:18 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
Good post, eggo!  :thumbup:






--------------------



Edited by MovingTarget (05/08/05 09:19 AM)


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: MovingTarget]
    #4149674 - 05/08/05 11:17 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

To chime in, in a discussion who's direction I cannot grasp as Ravus' point is not clear to me, nor do I understand all the opposition to him, nor do I know if his title was even sarcastic or not. So for the sake of chiming in...

Nihilism, enlightenment, all these things, all the most passionate perspectives through which to understand reality, perceive a common thing?infinite?in different lights. Existence or non-existence? Damnation or salvation? From an ego perspective, which considers existence in terms of individual sovereignty, infinite appears extremely threatening. Because it is there where we will all end up at death, an event which marks the dissemination of life as the ego knows it. But from a more enlightened perspective that embraces the chaos of --everything--, the path of life and then death and subtle life within the Ineffable, is clear. The present moment is saved as angst towards the future no longer holds it in confused panic.

Already in 'life' are we all one, and ego is denial of this fact. We are presently one, however, differently than were we all disseminated into the Ineffable. We are presently the manifestation of one?two! We perceive the Ineffable as constant interplay between Yin and Yang, for in considering it we apply to it the contextual nature of our own dualistic existence. The lesson of the Yin/Yang is well taken: absolute duality wherein both halves are totally separate from each other is not possible. So do we rely on the empty space around us to define our physical beings, so are we forever connected to the Ineffable. No matter how forcefully the ego denies this fact of existence, it can never achieve total independence, it can never be anything but innately fallacious in nature, and indeed the best resolution it can hope for is implosion which will experientially explain its self-negation to its victim-servant now freed.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4149698 - 05/08/05 11:37 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Nihilism, enlightenment, all these things, all the most passionate perspectives through which to understand reality, perceive a common thing?infinite?in different lights. Existence or non-existence? Damnation or salvation? From an ego perspective, which considers existence in terms of individual sovereignty, infinite appears extremely threatening. Because it is there where we will all end up at death, an event which marks the dissemination of life as the ego knows it. But from a more enlightened perspective that embraces the chaos of --everything--, the path of life and then death and subtle life within the Ineffable, is clear. The present moment is saved as angst towards the future no longer holds it in confused panic.

Nihislsm is a state of extreme negation which is most certainly based on a mind fully engaged in the passions of ignorance. The enlightened mind is said to be free from passion, so enlightenment is not a passionate perspective at all. In fact in Buddhism it is withinin the renunciation of those selfish passions that the compassionate Bodhi mind of enlightenment is realized. Just thought id make a little sidenote to state that Nihilsm is a view based on ego driven negation and is nowhere near a balanced enlightened perspective in my opinion.  :heart:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: egghead1]
    #4149785 - 05/08/05 12:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Enlightenment is not passionate? Hmmmm. No, I suppose you're right, it isn't. Maybe passion is the wrong word. But there is some urgency in it I find, the kind the Now is permeated with. Active passivity. Passion in the sense that faith, joy, and compassion are very strong. A mind immutably fixed in a relative framework. Subtlety being stronger than tangibility. I guess I shouldn't have used the word enlightenment in the first place, as it is much too broad and vague. :smile:

I'm not saying nihilism is near enlightenment at all. But I do think it's a necessary phase for the ego to go through, and considering nihilism compared to belligerent egocentric complacency to society, the former is further along than the latter for at least it acknowledges the prescence of chaos and the present state of suffering. It is a step in the awakening process, one that many fall victim to permanently, in their current lifetime at least.

Is it a necessary step? It's one I went through, but I wonder, is it necessary?


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4149892 - 05/08/05 12:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Nihilsm - the belief that there is no universal truth or underlying reality that undergirds moral values; that ultimately existence is meaningless. From the Latin "nihil" or "nothing".

From my experience i can definlety say that this is not a nessasery step toward awakeneing at all. In fact it hinders the process because we firstly fail to see any meaning in life whasoever, which is contrary toward the path of awakening to the meaning, secondly there is no belief held in a universal truth and as such no methods are employed to realize non-duality, nor are any methods deemed nessasery whatsoever since life is seen as inherently meaningless, thridly people who are nihilistic generally hold no moral ethics becuase there is no belief that ones actions have any consequences, as such the view of nihilsm is even more dangerous than the average ego condition, in fact i would go so far as to say that it is a super-ego complex, but not in the fraudian expression of the word.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Edited by egghead1 (05/08/05 12:50 PM)


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: egghead1]
    #4149941 - 05/08/05 01:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The way I see it, at first a person is ignorant of the world around him and forget about finding meaning in it for this person doesn't even think for himself. As the world is discovered, chaos comes into view, all sorts of things the person doesn't yet understand. He tries to find meaning but things are too contradictory and none of it makes sense. This is the only truth he is left with, that it is all chaos, but at least now he is conscious of the world instead of blind to it.

From here, meaning is not found, but *created*. He gives up looking for external answers and turns inwards. Now as he creates meaning, it's a matter of finding a framework of understanding that makes order out of contradicting world facets that he is all-too conscious of. He has truly experienced the world, but discovers that as he re-experiences it through the lens of his self-created perspective, it is different. Relative understanding of the chaos begins to make some sense out of things, order out of chaos.

After writing this out, I see there are many other paths. If one were to learn straight away of relativity then perhaps nihilism could be avoided. But I must say, it was enjoyable for me. It was freedom. This was long ago of course, and it's hard to remember it well. But I was nothing in particular, hardly a super-ego, more like a totally undefined ego made of chaos, of whatever arbitrary thing I wished. It was an important growing experience for me, in which I assertively threw out my old world model that no longer held true in the slightest.

Now as he progresses, it becomes less and less a matter of creating a world model that fits. External things become better understood symbolically, implying themselves, and implying the profound self common to all things, the Ineffable, the original chaos that could not be made sense of. His new self-created world model, once constantly entertained superficially in his mind, progressively becomes symbolically manifest in his surroundings, allowing his mind to peacefully observe it and find meaning in the world which he did and did not create himself. Symbolic understanding, that is, relative understanding; understanding things mean one thing as they superficially appear, and many other things depending on how deeply and symbolically they are considered.


Edited by the_phoenix (05/08/05 01:12 PM)


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4150032 - 05/08/05 01:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
The way I see it, at first a person is ignorant of the world around him and forget about finding meaning in it for this person doesn't even think for himself. As the world is discovered, chaos comes into view, all sorts of things the person doesn't yet understand. He tries to find meaning but things are too contradictory and none of it makes sense. This is the only truth he is left with, that it is all chaos, but at least now he is conscious of the world instead of blind to it.

From here, meaning is not found, but *created*. He gives up looking for external answers and turns inwards. Now as he creates meaning, it's a matter of finding a framework of understanding that makes order out of contradicting world facets that he is all-too conscious of. He has truly experienced the world, but discovers that as he re-experiences it through the lens of his self-created perspective, it is different. Relative understanding of the chaos begins to make some sense out of things, order out of chaos.

After writing this out, I see there are many other paths. If one were to learn straight away of relativity then perhaps nihilism could be avoided. But I must say, it was enjoyable for me. It was freedom. This was long ago of course, and it's hard to remember it well. But I was nothing in particular, hardly a super-ego, more like a totally undefined ego made of chaos, of whatever arbitrary thing I wished. It was an important growing experience for me, in which I assertively threw out my old world model that no longer held true in the slightest.

Now as he progresses, it becomes less and less a matter of creating a world model that fits. External things become better understood symbolically, implying themselves, and implying the profound self common to all things, the Ineffable, the original chaos that could not be made sense of. His new self-created world model, once constantly entertained superficially in his mind, progressively becomes symbolically manifest in his surroundings, allowing his mind to peacefully observe it and find meaning in the world which he did and did not create himself. Symbolic understanding, that is, relative understanding; understanding things mean one thing as they superficially appear, and many other things depending on how deeply and symbolically they are considered.




Yes now i understand what you mean. Nihilism is not what you mean, you are talking about discovering that everything you once believed in is meaningless, and then the progressive stages toward discovering meaning in life and thew world anew, this is not nihilism at all, nihilism is a negation of everything in favor of nothing, its an extreme conception of emptiness derived from a negative conception of reality itself lacking any meaning. What you are speaking of is a positive transformation of perspective form the socially conditioned robot, zombie mode, to a more free and 'meaningful' existence. Chaos is the gap between disgarding and discovery.

In Buddhism generally, relative truth is presented first, so there is little need for such a radical gap in the discarding of past conditioning in the transformation process, its more of a slowly shifting perception of ones previous conditioned existence to a more meaningful, evolutionary path of gradual transformation of the gross perception of reality toward the subtle ultimate truth of emptiness. This is how its presented in the more gradual sutrics path's.

For someone who isn't presented with the relative truth straight off, i can see that it would take more time to discover these things within oneself without guidence, hence the wider, more radical gap in the process of discarding conditioned existence toward finding meaning anew. Until as you know, eventually everything is seen with pure vision as an empty wisdom symbol of enlightenment itself.  :heart:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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