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Buddha People Help Me Out
    #6984366 -

Can someone here who understands Buddhism well, elaborate on the second noble truth?

I'm a little confused, are we not supposed to desire anything, what's the deal basically.

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6984403 -

First of all, it's like the 'Fifth Noble Truth' that you're not supposed to view the Noble Truths as a 'supposed to/not supposed to' dogma. They are guidelines for understanding the nature of mind.

Desire and attachment are things which it is beneficial to be softened and avoided. That does not mean you cannot work towards goals, but one would ideally be un-attached to the outcomes and more concerned with remaining present and aware.

Just observe your mind and you might see that feeling a strong desire for an object or outcome leads to tension that it becomes harder and harder to release as the desire becomes greater. Release the tension and Be Here Now!


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6984410 -

"Attachment" is a better translation than desire. A basic teaching of Buddhism is that all things are transient. If you attach yourself to non-permanent things, you will suffer when those things inevitably pass away. In studying Buddhism, I often noted that paradox that in order to seek enlightenment, you first had to desire it. Buddhists often see this as a more noble, but conditional desire. It can help put one in a better position to abandon all desire, including the one that brought them there.


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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: Lion]
    #6984433 -

It's ok to desire, just that I don't wrap my entire existence up in chasing after something?

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6984465 -

All attachments are your choice. Buddhism is full of paradoxes in its explanation of existence and enlightenment. For example, a fundamental truth of reality is non-self, since your body and thoughts are impermanent and have no separation from the impermanence of the rest of the universe. Yet at the same time, the Buddha said all individual beings are responsible for their own enlightenment- your mind must come to realize itself as non-self and impermanence and that the cause of its suffering is attachments before it can release attachments and stop seeing itself as "self".

The Second Noble Truth, which states that the cause of suffering is desire, states that you suffer because of attachments to impermanent forms. You attach yourself to your body, your identity, your family, yet none of these are eternal. You suffer at the thought of their decay, at the actuality of their decay and at the remembrance of their decay, until you reach death and return to this world because of your previous life's attachments. Everything in existence you perceive as impermanent is illusion, like a dream, and once you give up attachments to impermanence and realize non-self, suffering ceases.

Understand that the body
Is merely the foam of a wave,
The shadow of a shadow.
Snap the flower arrows of desire
And then, unseen,
Escape the king of death.
And travel on.
Death overtakes the man
Who gathers flowers
When with distracted mind and thirsty senses
He searches vainly for happiness
In the pleasures of the world.
Death fetches him away
As a flood carries off a sleeping village.
Death overcomes him
When with distracted mind and thirsty senses
He gathers flowers.
He will never have his fill
Of the pleasures of the world.
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/dhammapada.html

You cannot lose what you never owned.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: Ravus]
    #6984501 -

I understand that desire and attachment are responsible for suffering. What confuses me though, is that it's impossible to live without desiring. So, how can we rid ourselves of it?

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6984523 -

How do you know it is impossible to live without desiring? I suppose you could say that one must desire to be alive in order to provide oneself with adequate sustenance. But really, one could stay alive without any attachment to his life, and go about his life without any desire - living in the present, responding to reality as needed.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6984593 -

Nothing is impossible. It's your choice to live with attachments. By realizing you do not own your impermanent forms, that choosing to desire ephemeral objects creates your suffering, you can attain Nirvana and escape the cycle of rebirth into separated, suffering forms in the infinity of universes.

When you eat, does your desire to eat help the survival of your form anymore than eating without desire? When you are wronged by others, does the desire for revenge help you reduce your suffering, or simply perpetuate it?

You rid yourself of desire by becoming mindful. Meditate, follow the origin of desire in your mind and strive on with awareness. After battling your own urges and desires for illusions for years or lifetimes, you begin to realize that you are unconsciously choosing to suffer and the cessation of suffering is possible for your own consciousness by training your consciousness to see the futility of chasing after impermanence.

It may seem impossible to you now, especially if you live in a Western society where you are conditioned to desire materialistic objects and assured of the futility to escape these desires by our corporations, governments and schools who wish for good consumers, but they are suffering just as you and I are. There are some who realize it doesn't have to be this way.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6984662 -

Quote:
oliveplume said:
how can we rid ourselves of it?


Don't try to.:shrug: I appreciate Silversoul's distinction between attachment and desire. For me, desire is fluid and shifting. I embrace it, while loosening and letting go of attachments, which are usually based on fear of pain or lack. One can explore desire without attachment. For example, you could desire another person without having your world torn apart when the passion fades. You can't force a moment to last forever, but you can enjoy the experience nonetheless.

But hey, I'm no buddhist. Bring on bacchanalia! (and when it's over, bring on an extended period of quiet contemplation :tongue:)

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6984700 -

I posted a link to all the free talks this guy has on his site. Really, I've been looking for a couple of years for guidance. This guy speaks to me like no others have...

He uses the personal will in place of desire. Same thing. Check it out:

http://www.adyashanti.org/listen.php?filetodownload=bpw_320x240.wmv&avfile=Video&type=high

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #6984723 -

Appreciate the replies so far. I'm still having trouble grasping this concept though. Is there any way it could be explained any simpler?

If I had a child, would it be ok to be attached to him? How should I react if he passed away?

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6984848 -

Would it be ok to be attached to your own child? Of course. How you should react is how you feel you need to react. Trying to stuff your feelings into a dogma-box is ridiculous. Listen to your heart and trust yourself; you'll do fine.

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6984935 -

Is it OK in what terms? Is your foremost goal in your life enlightenment, or selfless perpetuation of your genetics? Whatever you choose, you have to live with the choice.

As long as you try to love altruistically and do good towards others, you will likely have a moderately good life, even though you will still suffer tremendously. If you are attached to your child, you will suffer constantly, but if that is your nature and you accept that choice, then it is OK for you. For the vast majority of people, this is not their last lifetime; only for people who would be willing to die in their attempts to attain Nirvana does enlightenment and the cessation of suffering move them profoundly enough to cease samsara.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: Ravus]
    #6985553 -

Ravus said:
Understand that the body
Is merely the foam of a wave,
The shadow of a shadow.
Snap the flower arrows of desire
And then, unseen,
Escape the king of death.
And travel on.
Death overtakes the man
Who gathers flowers
When with distracted mind and thirsty senses
He searches vainly for happiness
In the pleasures of the world.
Death fetches him away
As a flood carries off a sleeping village.
Death overcomes him
When with distracted mind and thirsty senses
He gathers flowers.
He will never have his fill
Of the pleasures of the world.



That looks like it would make a cool song. I might write music to it. Where did it come from?


--------------------
Grow Journal

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6985794 -

it's about what already happenned, the only prescription is gentleness, perseverence, and intelligence.

the 4NT's are short enough that they encompass the general case; you have to try to see how the 4NT's relates to things happenning around you or already happenned.

it's about what is going on in people


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: Noissu_Looc]
    #6985899 -

The Dhammapada. You can read it in its entirety in the link I posted after that poem, or here: http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/dhammapada.html


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6986431 -

oliveplume said:
Can someone here who understands Buddhism well, elaborate on the second noble truth?

I'm a little confused, are we not supposed to desire anything, what's the deal basically.


I don't understand Buddhism that well, but I'll give this a shot anyways. The second noble truth is that suffering or dissatisfaction (dukkha) has a cause, which is desire, which is the same thing as attachment and aversion.

One of, if not THE root attachment behind almost all other attachments is attachment to the self. All of our lives, we are conditioned to believe in the reality of a permanent being behind everything. We think there is an observer of what we observe. We think there is a doer behind what we do. We think there is a thinker behind our thoughts.

But examine this. Really look into this, it's extraordinarily important. Where do thoughts come from? Do you decide to think a certain thought? Or do thoughts just come and go? Once you start ruthlessly and compassionately observing your mind, it becomes clear that thoughts just bubble up out of nothing. They come and they go, and we have no control over them. Yet we become very attached to some thoughts, and averse to others.

It's the same with all things in life. Things we like and think will bring us pleasure or happiness or fulfillment we attach to and pursue, while things we think will bring us sorrow or unhappiness or boredom or anything unpleasant we avoid.

When you are able to start seeing through the idea of who you are, you start to see that these attachments and aversions are the result of uncertainty. Everything in the entire cosmos is flux itself, continual change, and that is really unnerving. So we search for something stable to latch onto, in the vain hope of security. Yet the ground is constantly moving underfoot, and there is nothing to hold on to, not even ourselves.

When you're able to understand this, really feel it in the marrow of your bones then you begin to stop attaching to things. When you are truly mindful, you cease to identify with desires, and they naturally begin to fall away. It's truly marvelous!

So try to observe for yourself. When you seek after things or avoid things in the pursuit of happiness, does the behavior of seeking and avoiding bring you lasting fulfillment and satisfaction? Or just a temporary respite from an unsatisfying experience of life?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: dblaney]
    #6986732 -

dblaney said:
It's truly marvelous!



So, the absence of desire gives one pleasure? I wanna feel that!:smirk:

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #6986778 -

wrong (partly)

the attatchment referred to is
stuck-ed-ness
like when you are stuck in a pattern

be aware of mental processes
they are associative
one thing links to another due to conditioning. they are stuck together with mental glue.
thoughts flow like this - a mix of memory and sensations ->(then by association to) more memory etc. while sensation keeps coming in and cueing up other associations.
meantime new memory is being created i.e. new associations are made.

this is the base case for mental automatic consciousness.

the attachment or linkages is the rule of habit - more repetition makes stronger habits (attachments).

this connects to that as it ever did (while each person's memory is naturally different)

when a step in a habit sequence is missing, you can either skip the sequence or yearn for the missing cue's, search for them, pine for them.
Attachment is normal, the suffering is when the sleepy habit cannot run it's course.

being awakened is to see the process as it is and step out of the chain with a light touch, no hard feelings, no grumpy judgements.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Buddha People Help Me Out [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #6986844 -

NiamhNyx said:
dblaney said:
It's truly marvelous!



So, the absence of desire gives one pleasure? I wanna feel that!:smirk:


I don't believe I said that.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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