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OfflinePedM
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"Religion breeds ignorance."
    #3458503 - 12/07/04 05:02 AM (12 years, 4 days ago)

"Religion breeds ignorance!"
"Religion is the opiate of the masses!"
"The world would be a better place if it weren't for religion!"
"Religion is what's behind so much of the suffering and misery in the world!"

In reality, there is nothing about religion which breeds ignorance, or which lulls people into a daze, causes social dysfunction, or which causes suffering. It's people who allow themselves to become dull and sedated. It's people build dysfunctional societies, and who cause suffering. To throw out or belittle religion or religious people because of the visible multitudes of poorly executed religious lifestyles: this is the same kind of lazy ignorance seen in misguided religious folks. When disillusionment with religion becomes hatred or zeal, that's when anti-religious folks enter into the same misguided behavior as those they ridicule.

Ignorance, suffering, social dysfunction: these are problems which come from the human tendency toward laziness. In the case of badly motivated religious life, our laziness manifests in the wish to feel like a superior being through collective ego-pandering and segregation, instead of actually becoming a superior being through the much-more-difficult practice of humility and cherishing others. When, out of laziness, people enter into ego-centrism and cliquishness, fertile ground is there for the abundance of hatred and ignorance, which are like weeds that choke the life out of otherwise diverse and progressive thinking.

Erred religious groups depend on the non-believers: if there were no non-believers, there would be no way to distinguish who was a "sinner" and who was worthy of exaltation. There would be no target for criticism, and no criteria by which one group segregates and pedestalizes itself over the other. Anti-religious zealots depend on misguided religious groups in the exact same way: if there were no misguided religious groups, there would be no way to distinguish who was "ignorant" and who was not. There would be no target for criticism, and no criteria by which one group segregates and pedestalizes itself over the other. It's the same mistake, the same co-dependent ego-pandering.

It's time to stop differentiating between "good Christians" and "bad Christians", "fake Christians" and "true Christians." It's time to stop looking down on others because they practice a certain faith, or are practicing their faith a certain way. Even when their motivation is obviously mistaken, even when people are deciding upon their beliefs instead of trying to discover them, there is still no reason to speak lowly of them. Speaking lowly of them is deciding how things are rather than trying to discover how things are. It's the same.

When used with devotion and as a rigorous discipline, religion is perhaps the most powerful tool available to us for personal transformation, for freedom from delusive, self-limiting and self-destructive thought and behavior, for increasing the quality of our lives, and for finding an absolutely honest and genuine place of lasting happiness and peace. It would be shame to overlook this because of all the liars and hypocrites tarnishing the word "religion" with terrible stigma.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Ped]
    #3458525 - 12/07/04 05:32 AM (12 years, 4 days ago)

Religion doesn't breed ignorance. Ignorant people simply can exploit religion.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3458595 - 12/07/04 06:54 AM (12 years, 4 days ago)

And people even more ignorant than the exploiters follow them  :yesnod:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Ped]
    #3459010 - 12/07/04 11:54 AM (12 years, 3 days ago)

If I ever find your mind wandering the phone lines outside of Calgary's city limits again, I'll bag you like so many bucks.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Ped]
    #3461259 - 12/07/04 08:46 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Ped, you succeeded where I failed on Fireworks thread. Nice.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Frog]
    #3461281 - 12/07/04 08:51 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

With all due genuine respect Frog: Ped suceeds where most of us fail, a truly difficult standard for any of us to live up to :wink:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Ped]
    #3461300 - 12/07/04 08:55 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Ah yes great insite. I like this post very much

Reminds me of something I would say often to the leaders of the church I left.

It went like this

FN quote

"A group a religious people makes for a poor teaching

While a religious person makes a good teacher"


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3463876 - 12/08/04 11:54 AM (12 years, 2 days ago)

I think it is a glaring mistake to absolve an actual religion of the produced mistakes of its followers entirely. Religion, ideally, is to be a structure that guides a person to direct, spiritual experience. The success of a religion depends on both the structure (the religion) and the person who enters into that structure. Ideally, the religion is just as much responsible for getting the follower to that direct spiritual experience or realization as the follower is to follow the religion and live his life as it is proposed that he should.

It is relatively simple to understand this. The brightest, most devoted student seeking to venture into a career as a cardiologist can only get as far as the structure known as a university or school he journeys through and studies at allows. If the school is full of incompetant teachers with their hearts in the wrong place, inadequate teaching materials, not enough access to actual field work... the bright-eyed, capable student will fail to become a sucessful, rich, happy cardiologist. :shocked:  :frown: To automatically assume that a religion is perfect in implication and without fault, thereby placing all fault on the follower of the religion, is a little... ja.....  :smirk:

Seriously, it is our responsibility to question and analyze the pieces that make up a structure of a religion just as much, if not more, than the capabilites and integrity of its practicers. Taking a rough diamond and smashing it a bunch of times with a hammer does not produce marriage-proposal diamond rings.

One has to closely consider a religion's structure: its ideas, its practices, its history. If a religion consistenly, over a vast time period, is ineffective at bringing a large amount of a variety of people to direct spiritual experiences, the experience of which would solve a lot of our problems in terms of our relationships with others, etc., who's fault might it be? Some religions just do not have a user interface that is conducive to true spiritual advancement of its followers, although the core content of the religion might be spiritually profound and valid.

Spiritual experience and spiritual knowledge are not that hard to attain if the means for attainment actually work for most all, not just a lucky-to-be-in-the-exact-right-place few.

A dull, dysfunctional structure ignorantly constructed and implemented naturally will produce the same effects in its unassuming followers. There are far more positive, clear, and concise structures that are more apt to bring people to direct spiritual experiences and to a state of great personal growth, transformation, understanding, and being, than ancient, ill-applied, cold structures. Live knowledge, live teaching, living, breathing, being. It is the interactions in the Now that allow for understanding, growth, and spiritual experience to be passed to others. A structure without this (as many are) is incapable of bringing one to direct, spiritual experience, and is thus powerless and, ultimately, pointless. :wink:

I can think of one religion in particular that needs so many revisions in spiritual texts and knowledge, and the structure that is utilized to bring people to be aware of this and to awaken to the spiritual experience within, that it would be so different that it would not come close to resembling the religion it was beforehand.... but yet... at the same time... the revised religion would be as close to the ideas of its spiritual leader as it had ever been. :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Ped]
    #3464451 - 12/08/04 02:21 PM (12 years, 2 days ago)

It's time to stop looking down on others because they practice a certain faith, or are practicing their faith a certain way.
We ALL make judgements ALL the time. I feel free to judge those who believe in human sacrifice or want to drink poison or want to kill others in the name of their God.

It's people who allow themselves to become dull and sedated. It's people build dysfunctional societies, and who cause suffering.
Huh? It's people that build religions.

Erred religious groups depend on the non-believers: if there were no non-believers, there would be no way to distinguish who was a "sinner" and who was worthy of exaltation.
Wrong. Members of a religious group are frequently considered sinners by that same group.

When used with devotion and as a rigorous discipline, religion is perhaps the most powerful tool available to us for personal transformation...
There is no evidence for this. Why not substitue ANY activity in place of religion. "Walking when done with devition and as a rigorous discipline..." This statement reminds me of diet pills. "Take Product X along with regular exercise and restricted calorie intake, you will lose weight." The same results occur when you delete Product X.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3464738 - 12/08/04 03:11 PM (12 years, 2 days ago)

In fact dude you and I have very
much in common in what you have said. In fact I do not think that the Christian Church has got it right. Many of the things you said, in fact all of what you said Is exactly what I feel. The fact that I choose to follow the example that Jesus left is because I know that he got it right. As did a few other people across the time of Man.

This is where the misunderstanding may come in to play. I have chosen to identify myself with Jesus and that has lead a lot of people to assume many tings about me.

Goes like this.............. A rock has many names. BOULDER,STONE,PEBBLE,GRAVEL,SAND etc... but this does not change what it is. Rock is Rock

No matter how many names or faces it is given a Rock is Rock


God,oneness,that place,positive energy,heaven etc......

All the same. All the same goal.

I have some pretty wild ideas and understandings that in the eyes of the Christian church are nothing more than the devil.


In the very near future I will be sharing my Wild ideas and what I consider truth. You may be very surprised at what you learn about me.


Here is the thing and you may agree


If I had 2,000 years to form and religious group and had 100,000 men and there ideals and greed to mix in with it. I also may have come up with, Noah,Moses,Satan,Confessional,Sin,God,Buddha Yahweh etc.....


All just words.........describing the same things. Positive and negative energy's. The best words for Good and evil which we all know are truths.

In fact I agree with many of the things discussed in here than you could guess.

But only know these things from the stand point of Christianity. Jesus had it right. and many people know this even if they do not call them selves a Christian. I don't know that much about Buddha but I suspect he also got it right.

The problem is what words or desciptions does a Man use ?

I would say the only point you made that I disagree with is that yes God does break through more easly than others. The time is close at hand in humanity that God will break through many and then to all.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3469723 - 12/09/04 11:44 AM (12 years, 1 day ago)

>> Huh? It's people that build religions.

Yeah, exactly. Why should some faithless people detract from other's ability to pursue a faith? We need to have the capacity to suspend our judgement once in a while. That's the point.


>> Wrong. Members of a religious group are frequently considered sinners by that same group.

That's the same posturing and hierarchy I'm talking about, Swami, except in this case on the individual level. Instead of trying to become closer to God, followers like these are trying to climb atop eachother.


>> There is no evidence for this. Why not substitue ANY activity in place of religion. "Walking when done with devition and as a rigorous discipline..." This statement reminds me of diet pills. "Take Product X along with regular exercise and restricted calorie intake, you will lose weight." The same results occur when you delete Product X.

Of course there is no evidence. The only "evidence" to be found is deeply personal and depends on your own practice and your own sincerity. What I am saying here is that sincere faith and sincere interest in religious teachings unlocks their enormous potential. The ability to suspend judgement and keep objective is what's important. This comes from personal experience, and is therefore not something I would present as "evidence."

When religious teachings are taken in competition with other people, they lose their value and many terrible things are bound to happen. People get hurt, and in extreme cases people start wars. When religious teachings are approached with sincerity, there is tremendous potential for good. People gain wisdom and insight, they discover peace, and the way to lead others to peace. Why should we take the example provided by those taking religious teachings competitively as being representative of the value of the teachings? If that is our view, we close the door on enormous amounts of positive potential.

What I'm saying is that there is no reason to despise religion, thereby closing the door on it, because of the actions of misguided religious representatives. I hope that clarifies things.


--------------------


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OfflineFrog
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Ped]
    #3477425 - 12/10/04 06:28 PM (12 years, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
What I'm saying is that there is no reason to despise religion, thereby closing the door on it, because of the actions of misguided religious representatives. I hope that clarifies things.




This is why I don't go to church, though, any more. The church I was attending up until a year ago still directs its teachings to the person who isn't really spiritual, yet. I can see why people paint ALL Christians, and therefore, religions, with the same brush.

I think these people are trying to be spiritual, though. I just don't think they've gotten it yet.

I sort of hit a plateau in the church. I wasn't really learning anything any more. Not to say I know everything, but just to say that I think I learned up to that point and now it's time to move on and learn from other sources about God, life, etc.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: Ped]
    #3478114 - 12/10/04 08:30 PM (12 years, 14 hours ago)

The thread "Scholasticism" outlines how I feel about Religion, or any such schools of thought.

There is nothing wrong with religion as long as it's merely a stepping stone towards an independent, healthy and direct relationship with Tao/Being - instead of becoming attached to the religion, i.e. to the conceptual signposts of lessons, words, rituals, and all of which points toward the Enlightened reality.

A quote I've seen recently illuminated this flaw quite effectively in a humorous vein:
"When Jesus pointed, everybody looked at his finger."

In my humble point of view, I believe religion should be used only as a helpful push, in the right direction, towards which it points toward.. Otherwise, people grow attached to dogmatic principles and thus, spiritual growth is hindered or stopped.

There are many people who are very, very, religious, but are not truly spiritual.
Likewise, the reverse is true: Many people are not at all religious, but are actually spiritual.

The difference between the religious but still proud and self-centered stoic and the unreligious spiritualist consists in this: the latter, being flexible, non-rigid and at heart rather poor in ego, lacks the energy and the motive to do much harm except to his own body, mind and spirit; the former, because he has all the secondary virtues and looks down on those who are not like himself, is morally equipped to wish and to be able to do harm on the very largest scale and with a perfectly untroubled conscience.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (12/10/04 11:11 PM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: "Religion breeds ignorance." [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3478300 - 12/10/04 09:01 PM (12 years, 14 hours ago)

"When Jesus pointed, everybody looked at his finger."

oh buddy thats just perfect

:grin: :thumbup: :grin:


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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