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The Buddha and Becker on the problem.
    #11918218 -

I'm thinking that Becker and the Buddha were both working the same problem. That Buddha looked out from his ivory tower and said why is their aging decay sickness and death at the core of everything. He then went on his quest to find out how to defeat the problem. He tried everything and of course he never really did. It's not surprising that he rejected all the gurus along the way. He developed his core teaching for dealing with the problem of death. Just like Becker did. And maybe, just maybe in the end he succumbed to the same thing that Becker did. But maybe not. :wink:

Still I think the Buddha did a fairly good job.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11918248 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11918299 -

His work was never popular because he used that D word so often.

At the end when he realized the problem could not be solved except with a shield he had already seen through most of them. Faith was all he could come up with. Joke on him.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11920898 -

death is not a problem that buddha dealt with at all
(except metaphorically)
in the context of the suffering that he did deal with, death is small potatoes.
buddha was involved with consciousness,
the succession of mind moments and the wake of their passing (mini deaths metaphorically)
this pageant and it's side effects is the domain where suffering was addressed by buddha.
it is and was about the stream we are all involved with, and not about the end of any particular stream.
one of the afflictions is fixation, or clinging to a point unrelated to the current flow.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11920941 -

I'm not talking about death. After all this time is that your understanding of my posts? I'm talking about death anxiety and how it makes us cling to everything. This is what the Buddha found and why it was death and decay that set him on his quest imo.

You misunderstand what I am saying.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11922062 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11922465 -

I don't think it was about defeating the problem of death, more just understanding that all things are subject to it. Its seems nicer to be dressed up in words like 'impermanence' though, when really its basically saying 'everything dies'.

In my experience of understanding death, the only 'problem' is making it personal, death happens to the person but death itself is not personal, it happens to everyone & everything, so when contemplating death, making it personal is the only bit that can make it seem daunting as the person is always clinging to life in some way shape or form.

Some self image is there & the inevitable vanishing of that image creates a fear, so IMO the only way to truly face death is to see through the self image, see if your essential self consists of an 'image'


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Edited by Chronic7 (01/29/10 05:31 AM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Chronic7]
    #11925221 -

yes
i may have misunderstand
but I still suppose you are calling all anxiety death anxiety
and I don't see the need to prepend the word death in front of things where it is not actually suitable.

that might be construed as obsessive.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11925450 -

Well lets go into this (in simple terms please). What would cause you anxiety if you were immortal? No death decay disfigurement, all the time in the world to put any problem off. No survival issues. Now how much would make you anxious?


Give a couple examples if you have them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11925810 -

I can hardly imagine an immortal existence, let alone postulate losing it.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11926000 -

This was on my mind yesterday, the idea of what an immortal life would leave me to do. Looking at our actions and motivations I can't find anything that doesn't trace down the branch to the trunk that is an comprehension and consequent fear of one's death.

Life and death are so closely knit that I cannot imagine if I were indeed immortal that I would find myself doing anything I am now, I can't even say that human expression (the one thing I find passion for) would maintain it's meaning without the pressurs of the human existence. Inside the engine I call life death is the flame moving it all.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11926026 -

redgreenvines said:
I can hardly imagine an immortal existence, let alone postulate losing it.



Nice cop out and btw I knew you would. But take it from the honest post below yours.

Looking at our actions and motivations I can't find anything that doesn't trace down the branch to the trunk that is an comprehension and consequent fear of one's death. :thumbup:

If you seek with and open heart and mind you will find the frightening truth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11926367 -

which naturally you can put in words
or can you only try to put it in words
and then try harder
and then escalate it
until it gets threatening...
and a few feet away it is just the beating of another drum.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11926690 -

We are the primate with the most developed brain. The major effect of this development for us imo is the knowledge that we can and will cease to be one day, to decay and die away.

Everything we do is informed by this knowledge. The search for the fountain of youth, the fountain of immortality moves the the culture and all it's advancements. Mostly unconsciously.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11926721 -

This is the kind of big idea that I have to live with for a couple years and make sure it fits everywhere before I accept it.

The damn thing is psychology is the realm of subjectivity, and subjectivity is susceptible to modification through fears, desires and expectations.

We humans have mastered the science of objectivity, now we need a scientific method for subjectivity if at all possible. Perhaps the Buddhists have done this already?

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Freedom]
    #11926841 -

This is the kind of big idea that I have to live with for a couple years and make sure it fits everywhere before I accept it.

I didn't accept it until I was in my fifties. I had to try every way out first. So yes, it's up to you to decide for yourself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11927976 -

I would say all fears stem from the fear of death as in my experience when i do not fear death, i don't have any other fears at all.

Freedom said:
We humans have mastered the science of objectivity, now we need a scientific method for subjectivity if at all possible. Perhaps the Buddhists have done this already?


Well it seems almost impossible at the moment, talk to any robotics engineer that deals with self awareness & they'll tell you its difficult, almost impossible territory for science to deal with. Science uses consciousness, but it doesnt understand what it is, i don't think it ever will, as its not a measurable tangible 'thing'


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Chronic7]
    #11928027 -

This is an area where you and I are in full agreement then.

This knowledge may not be of benefit to most and may even make life more stressful. However at the very least one knows why one is having difficulties. It's not in that sense a personal problem but rather a problem of life as homo sapiens in general. It's in our makeup and a side effect so to speak of the evolution of this self aware consciousness.

To think it possible that all the accomplishments of our progress in civilization throughout human history, all the great work and striving along with all the great sufferings and confusion as to why we often act in horrific ways can come down to this one fact. We know we will die and we don't want this to be true. Well it's a somewhat stunning and humbling realization.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11928402 -

Icelander said:
We are the primate with the most developed brain. The major effect of this development for us imo is the knowledge that we can and will cease to be one day, to decay and die away.

Everything we do is informed by this knowledge. The search for the fountain of youth, the fountain of immortality moves the the culture and all it's advancements. Mostly unconsciously.


I deconstruct your origami of thought:

* We are the primate*
This is an intellectual effort to fold all of us into one form: i.e. to make one out of many (separately we can talk about the suitability of that but for now just look at the synthetic mental process of Reduction of Many into One)

* most developed brain*
This is an intellectual effort to draw attention at a dominant size (drop the little details and see this one big thing Reduction of Many into One)


* The major effect*
Again – before getting to anything factual, we have an intellectual gesture that creates a vortex of ideation invoking the Reduction of Many into One.

*Everything we do is informed by this knowledge.*
Actually everything we do is informed by everything we experience but we can see that the intent is to swirl all meaning into one big idea.

I do not blame anyone for being involved with the Reduction of Many into One., as it does seem organically satisfying mental behavior (pleasure of resonance like tuning forks mutually chiming), I am just very leery of Certainty, especially when the process is an arbitrary organic one (associative thought), and above all when the intent is to summarize All into One while the fair trick is to allow Many into One. i.e. it is natural to connect one to many, but it is overreaching to make a mountain out of a mole hill, and call that mountain a planet.

otherwise I do agree that the colonization of the western continents was fueled by dreams of business expansion and not least of which was plunder of gold and exportable foods and medicines including but not over-emphasising, Ponce de Leon and the quest for a fountain of youth.

among archetypes, any of the aces in any tarot deck does this same Reduction of Many to One, but any deck worth it's salt will allow at least 4 suits, and the reduction of all of that is Deck not Death.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11928664 -

I don't think you have disputed my statement in any viable way.

Just because a Tarot deck (which by the way is used by most for self protection to get the edge on death):wink: only has one death card just proves how it is broken up and dispersed into the minutia of life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11928937 -

so everything not death is minutae?
?
one thing is biggenned and other stuff is smallend.

this is gestural mentation, theater, as opposed to philosophy,
maybe even politics.

what are we finding?
are we learning anything new?

anyway, I think the claim is wrong, buddha allowed death a position on the wheel of life, he focussed on suffering not death, your big idea is only 1/12th as big as you thought.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11929011 -

You continue to ignore where suffering comes from, the root cause. You had your chance to provide examples for examination and you copped out. Quit whining now.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11929026 -

Quote:
Well it seems almost impossible at the moment, talk to any robotics engineer that deals with self awareness & they'll tell you its difficult, almost impossible territory for science to deal with. Science uses consciousness, but it doesnt understand what it is, i don't think it ever will, as its not a measurable tangible 'thing


Partly this is how I came to believe that perception actually precedes matter. I don't think its ever possible, i don't think computers can ever achieve self awareness. It's impossible to imagine how computers can ever give rise to the intangible experience that is our minds. How do physical things combine to form an intagible experience? They cant and dont so I believe in something called the soul. what son ?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929109 -

Icelander said:
Well lets go into this (in simple terms please). What would cause you anxiety if you were immortal? No death decay disfigurement, all the time in the world to put any problem off. No survival issues. Now how much would make you anxious?


Give a couple examples if you have them.


Anxiety may be the driving force, but why must it be described in such a way?
Tension seems more fitting to me. Like magnets repelling each other. You can observe the repelling without becoming anxious about it.

In other words, placing the forces at play outside of yourself, not inside. Life and death are bigger than you.


And as for examples of what could cause this same repelling if immortal...
the Buddha talks about many
desires for example: you could desire a woman and never get her. If you do not let go of that desire, you will suffer for it. For eternity if your desire is strong enough and you've got the time :shrug:

Now you may say, why would I strive for a woman if I never had to fear dying? No need for kids, no need for sexual interactions. Sure, that's plausible.

But, I'd have to ask a question in response. Are you suggesting that if we could not die, our existence is automatically blissful? That simply knowing we can be around forever would kill any drive for entertainment? We wouldn't want to enjoy our immortality, we'd be content just not dying? Heh...


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (01/30/10 12:00 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11929199 -

I think of we were immortal  our desire for entertainment would be based in other needs. There would be no knowledge of death and no anxiety about it and one would move to other concerns.

But at base I'm saying for us it's death anxiety. (tension? as if that word somehow makes a difference to the unconscious) Doesn't mean we also don't seek entertainment for pleasure and to relieve boredom etc.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11929255 -

Kickle said:
Now you may say, why would I strive for a woman if I never had to fear dying? No need for kids, no need for sexual interactions. Sure, that's plausible.

But, I'd have to ask a question in response. Are you suggesting that if we could not die, our existence is automatically blissful? That simply knowing we can be around forever would kill any drive for entertainment? We wouldn't want to enjoy our immortality, we'd be content just not dying? Heh...


The things that I find to bring some of the most pleasure usually if not always revolve around the idea of death and our organisms struggle for survival. Food, sleep, sex, these things are some of the most enjoyable pleasures within this animal and it makes sense to me that an organism would put the most pleasure and value on those things that which are needed to survive.

It doesn't seem to me that immortality would be blissful but rather without the motivation of survival it wouldn't make sense for our organism to find these acts as pleasurable or satisfying as they were, now that they are entirely unnecessary.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929262 -

Your unconscious isn't the one making posts. That's why the phrasing becomes important (IMO).

There are many who believe we are immortal and are already working on these other concerns. Do you suggest that they are doing so out of death anxiety? If so, isn't that advantageous because they have moved into the same realm as the immortal in terms of pushes and pulls? Or is that an arbitrary judgment of what it is best to concern one's self with?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Tropism]
    #11929290 -

Tropism said:
The things that I find to bring some of the most pleasure usually if not always revolve around the idea of death and our organisms struggle for survival. Food, sleep, sex, these things are some of the most enjoyable pleasures within this animal and it makes sense to me that an organism would put the most pleasure and value on those things that which are needed to survive.

It doesn't seem to me that immortality would be blissful but rather without the motivation of survival it wouldn't make sense for our organism to find these acts as pleasurable or satisfying as they were, now that they are entirely unnecessary.


It always comes back to meaning for me. We use our mortality to provide meaning for our physical functions. If we take that away, where do we look for meaning? To me that would be a significant source of tension as well.

But mortal or immortal, we're attempting to place meaning onto something that may not have any inherent meaning.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11929373 -

I'm not discussing meaning, I'm talking of our base animal desires and why they are in place and as gratifying as they are. Chemical reactions, not meaning.

If we were immortal why would the human organism make sex as pleasurable and desirable as it is without anything to gain and without any survival value?

I'm not asking if it would still be meaningful, but would it still be physically desireable, or pleasurable. The majority of our time is spent on things that continue our survival and the survival of our species, and these things are appropriately emotionally rewarding. The things that seem most rewarding in this experience have to do with survival, which has to do with death. So how can one suggest that death doesn't loom within our motivations?

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11929442 -

Kickle said:
Your unconscious isn't the one making posts. That's why the phrasing becomes important (IMO).

There are many who believe we are immortal and are already working on these other concerns. Do you suggest that they are doing so out of death anxiety? If so, isn't that advantageous because they have moved into the same realm as the immortal in terms of pushes and pulls? Or is that an arbitrary judgment of what it is best to concern one's self with?



Absolutely I believe they are doing it out of death anxiety. Shields are shields and we all need them. Whatever works for you. You have to ask the question then is it really working for me in a way that gives me some real satisfaction in life? For instance a Christian may adopt a belief in the afterlife to quell their anxiety about non existence, but this shield requires that they abandon may of the things they would really like to be doing in life.

And for myself I would say my unconscious effects all of my conscious actions. Including how and what I post here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929521 -

Icelander said:
You continue to ignore where suffering comes from, the root cause. You had your chance to provide examples for examination and you copped out. Quit whining now.:nono:


I don't ignore the source of suffering,
as much as I am aware of each root cause,
which are each connected to craving,
and that is a very general tropism,
it easily entangles as attachment,
and that usually resolves as suffering, if the release is not timely.

That process in itself is a huge area that people often misunderstand or assume to be limited only to specific cravings.

Any one of the possible cravings might be involved with death, or as many as one in twelve (statistically) might be, but not all cravings are related to death, except indirectly through the wheel of life, which relates all 12 points to each other via rim and spokes.

how is this approach to clearing up this issue taken as whining, copping out, or ignoring of the facts?

plain and simple - the way you are now mis-attributing your death obsession idea to Buddha is in the category of wrong thought & wrong speech & wrong action (i.e. by intent to dominate a conversation and attribute merit by assignment of a reference to a historical figure) this links to your personal fixation and craving, and this leads you additional suffering for you.

we do not need to make this bigger than it is.
only one thing is happier when embiggenned, ask Veritas.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Tropism]
    #11929546 -

Quote:
I'm not discussing meaning, I'm talking of our base animal desires and why they are in place and as gratifying as they are. Chemical reactions, not meaning.

If we were immortal why would the human organism make sex as pleasurable and desirable as it is without anything to gain and without any survival value?



chemical reactions
vs
pleasure, desire, gratification


To me, you're blending meaning into physiology. And its very obvious to me that things aren't as black and white as evolution would have us believe. Depending on the meaning we attribute to sex, it can become more torture than pleasure. This self attributed meaning overrides everything that our physical world would tell us it should be. Chemicals can be influenced by thought, and thought can be influenced by chemicals. It is not a one-way street.

therefore when you say:
"I'm not asking if it would still be meaningful, but would it still be physically desireable, or pleasurable"

I cannot hear a difference. If it is meaningful, it has the potential to be physically desirable. And if it is physically desirable, it has the potential to be meaningful. I cannot separate out these two concepts.


Quote:
The majority of our time is spent on things that continue our survival and the survival of our species, and these things are appropriately emotionally rewarding.


There is sooooo much variation in this regard. Everyone eats, yes, and it keeps us alive, yes. Does that mean that every time we eat, we do so because we're afraid of death? Really? No one can eat because they want to have energy to pursue x,y, or z? The meaning is inflexible? I don't buy it. That's why I say we're placing meaning onto something that may not hold any inherent meaning. Yes, we have a will to survive. No, I don't have a clue why. I'm more than a little reluctant to say that it is due to a fear of death. That's speculation IMO, and comes from the interaction between observing and then giving meaning. We observe something and assume it has meaning. But, what if it doesn't? People eat for a LOT of reasons. And even when we don't account for the myriad of alternative reasons, when we peel it back to the earliest days of our eating, why would we be assured that eating resulted from a fear of death? Why is hunger not a sufficient reason? Chemicals in the body being released that are metaphorically saying, "hey, this is what I need to fulfill my function". That there is no meaning behind hunger, but rather that it is a function of living tissue. To say that the chemicals are sending signals because they are afraid of death, well, OK, but how the hell do you know that? Seems like a pretty good leap and attribution of meaning to me.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (01/30/10 01:47 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11929625 -

Any one of the possible cravings might be involved with death, or as many as one in twelve (statistically) might be, but not all cravings are related to death, except indirectly through the wheel of life, which relates all 12 points to each other via rim and spokes.

Not indirectly but directly connected. All cravings have there roots in the anxiety of "not having" or loss of which the ultimate loss is of the self.

The idea of right thinking and all that shit are imo religious magical recipes for negation of suffering in the same way that following the Ten Commandments are. But in reality are distractions or shields from the fact of death and an attempt to negate it's effects. Which ultimately is impossible. Imo that's why there was only one "buddha" and millions of buddhists.

Again I would like to see an example of some craving or attachment that is not connected to death anxiety.

btw I got on to this whole idea from Veritas who believes everything is related to death anxiety so that appeal to authority is fail.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929652 -

so I wanna bang chicks becaue im afraid of dying? hmmmmm...


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929708 -

Icelander said:
btw I got on to this whole idea from Veritas who believes everything is related to death anxiety so that appeal to authority is fail.


I don't appeal to Veritas to authorize, but only to embiggen that part of your self which must be neglected for you so to be fixated on death.

this is a known physiological side effect of lack of sex -
a person gets so distracted they think they're gonna die
they embiggen the idea of death!
it's just sex addiction!

you know that,
and if you don't your winkie does.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: soldatheero]
    #11930074 -

soldatheero said:
so I wanna bang chicks becaue im afraid of dying? hmmmmm...


Yup. At least it certainly could be. think on it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11930085 -

this is a known physiological side effect of lack of sex -
a person gets so distracted they think they're gonna die
they embiggen the idea of death!
it's just sex addiction!

Well I'd like to see the links to this specific idea of yours.  Not saying it couldn't be true but lets have the link.

Veritas must have the same addiction cause she seems a little focused on this idea too.:wink: I'll let her know.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11930563 -

Well between you two i think that yes, while attachement is a larger part of this whole death thing it's a bigger part that 1/12 but yes attachement is a great blanket term. Death anxiety is after, all only an attachement to the self, wouldn't you agree?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11930615 -

I'm not in agreement with his position. It's not comfortable to face the the possibility that one is really all about fear and self importance and that all our concerns come down to this.

But I'm not sure what  you mean by "only" an attachment to the self. Everything for us is about ourselves. This has been discussed to death here.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11931378 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11931450 -

Yup I've considered it. You could say that I live in a Buddhist community. There are more Buddhists here than Christians it seems. I've known many as friends so I have experience with them on many levels.

I have no idea what you mean by putting ones life on the line but all religions have had persecution at times. That doesn't mean they are worthwhile.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11931571 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11931674 -

Yeah, what if? That won't get us far however.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11933220 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by rebus_minus (01/31/10 02:22 AM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11933402 -

technically
a claim to truth is not the legacy in buddhism.
though it does claim to the merits of 4 noble truths
(rather like the 4 obvious issues)
and the effectiveness of the middle way (a.k.a. the 8 fold path).
part of which is mediation.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11934339 -

Still waiting.


this is a known physiological side effect of lack of sex -
a person gets so distracted they think they're gonna die
they embiggen the idea of death!
it's just sex addiction!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11934901 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11934908 -

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11934926 -

Death anxiety is very real but to think it cannot be conquered and to think that its always going to have some sort of unconscious effect on what we perceive to be true about this reality is just staight bogus.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11935011 -

Lakefingers said:
Quote:
Plain and simple - the way you are now mis-attributing your death obsession idea to Buddha is in the category of wrong thought & wrong speech & wrong action (i.e. by intent to dominate a conversation and attribute merit by assignment of a reference to a historical figure) this links to your personal fixation and craving, and this leads you additional suffering for you.


Agreed to an extent and if we judge Icelandr from Buddhism's epistemology. BUT this does not disprove Icelander, except out of that epistemological system. Don't hold Christ to the tenets of Judaism, nor Buddha to Hinduism.

If you don't get this then please ask yourself if it's reasonable the Buddhism has its head up its ass with such a magical number as 12 spokes on the wheel of life. Not 11, not 13, but twelve - extremely important in systems and aesthetics of Indo-Europeans since ancient times. The early Buddhists noticed the forces of death anxiety related to suffering, perhaps a few other fundamental/universal issues, but for mystical, aesthetic, etc reasons, had to fill the system out to twelve because it just wouldn't look right up there on the wall, above the altars, in the books... It's an ancient twelve step con-program.


spokes work out well that way.
call it interior design if you like
yet it may have been apprehended in a vision. (mine usually get 8 spokes)
the number 12 - while highly divisible (eg, roundly by 1,2,3,4,and 6) is, in my opinion, arbitrary - importantly it is much larger than 2

also I do hope ice is properly embiggenned soon.

and rebus is so right about release, learned earned and not yearned.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: soldatheero]
    #11935063 -

soldatheero said:
Death anxiety is very real but to think it cannot be conquered and to think that its always going to have some sort of unconscious effect on what we perceive to be true about this reality is just staight bogus.


But thinking that it exists in everyone isn't bogus?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11935081 -

nope


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: soldatheero]
    #11935099 -

Care to explain how?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11935165 -

honestly... nope


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11935205 -

I am just going to drop some ideas, no point really

Aren't sex and death the two theories of human momentum? We have Freud, and for a while I thought death anxiety was a bit underappreciated. This was before I encountered Icelander.

Lets see. Death is the temporarily of life. We do, and do not know that interval. We have a speculative understanding of it, but we are forced to that speculation. Icelander seems to force it with force. I get that

There is also the temporality of experience. What is the connection to that? To what extent does the drum beat, a temporal interval, play to the end of the song? Maybe in an epic, maybe in many classical works, and surely in a tragedy.

But comedy is releasing, Jazz and some other music too, is the endless process of syncopation - (disseminating or seminating) but the important aspect is that it points  inwards or in between. That's syncopation. Maybe this is like RGV's interior design.

Besides tragedy there are real, natural, or uncontrived intervals that are just as significant as works that focus on the whole thing. The whole thing, tends to be tragedy, or maybe crashing waves of personality.

Depends on if you want to make a point (.)

How about (;)?

Sex comes in intervals, and orgasm is alot like death. They are both theories, stretches of intervals where the ends may very well be, but are not necessarily the contrived focus. 

Cool thread everyone, Ive enjoyed following this for the last few days.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11935575 -

also I do hope ice is properly embiggenned soon.

I'm aware of your not responding to me directly and not answering questions put directly to you in connection with your statements about what my addictions are. All I asked was for a link or some evidence of your claims.

RGV for the duck and cover. In the future if you want my respect as a debater in this forum you better back up your assertions with something more than silence and pretending nothing happened.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11935602 -

Yeah sex and death. Perceived by some, sex is the solution to death. All this male heir nonsense to carry on ones name as a sort of immortality. Or just to lose oneself  in the flow state of the sexual act or the pursuit and lust itself. Great shield for death anxiety.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Chronic7]
    #11936479 -

Chronic777 said:
I would say all fears stem from the fear of death as in my experience when i do not fear death, i don't have any other fears at all.

Freedom said:
We humans have mastered the science of objectivity, now we need a scientific method for subjectivity if at all possible. Perhaps the Buddhists have done this already?


Well it seems almost impossible at the moment, talk to any robotics engineer that deals with self awareness & they'll tell you its difficult, almost impossible territory for science to deal with. Science uses consciousness, but it doesnt understand what it is, i don't think it ever will, as its not a measurable tangible 'thing'


What I mean by 'science of subjectivity' is not to have objective knowledge about consciousness, but to have subjective knowledge of consciousness. :smile:

Science has given us the scientific method which is great at verifying a consistent and rigorous perspective for creating abstract concepts from  observations (the analogue sensations are turned into digital concepts automatically by everyone, but the science perspective checks and reforms this), and for creating theories from these formalized observations, theories which themselves are abstract concepts.



But how do we look at something like desire? By its very nature its a totally subjective experience. All subjective experiences have the problem of being influenced by fear, desire and expectation.

So how can we even begin to seriously ask the question of what is the root of desire, or the root of fear, when we haven't at the very least developed some method of dealing with fear, desire and expectation?

Further, in my experience certain things that appear to be unconscious motivators are actually conscious, only they are subtle and fleeting.

What I am suggesting is that instead of forming an abstract concept from limited experience, it may be possible to view what actually happens in the mind. For example, if death is the ultimate motivation behind everything, it may be possible to directly experience that fear of death, and then see the response to that fear of death and how it is transformed into something else.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11941616 -

Since you choose to hit and run I will leave you with this last word cause I get to have it. Your debate technique sucks.:lol:

Here's a quote for you to take home with ya.

Life but leads to doom. Our time is short.
From Decay there's naught can keep us safe.
Contemplating thus this fear of death,
Scorn such worldly bait, seek final peace.
Buddha - Upaneyya.m Sutta


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11941631 -

No but that quote is from Chronic's sig, he doesn't understand the Buddha at all!


--------------------

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Chronic7]
    #11941644 -

Read Epictetus and you will understand what the Buddha was all about.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11941702 -

I thought reading the Buddha would be enough to understand the Buddha? :shrug:

Tbh, i was just joining in the poking at RGV as he's in the past expressed how he doesn't enjoy my interpretations of Buddhas words...


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Chronic7]
    #11941812 -

It's rgv that doesn't "want" to understand imo.

I'm just playing off your statement though. Epictetus came to many of the conclusions that Buddha did but earlier in history I believe. He made it sound more practical however and less mystical or religious. You would like him I think.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11941899 -

"Do not seek to bring things to pass in accordance with your wishes, but wish for them as they are, and you will find them"

Thats pretty epic


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Chronic7]
    #11941905 -

He had a lot of great one liners.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11941933 -

"
To accuse others for one's own misfortunes is a sign of want of education. To accuse oneself shows that one's education has begun. To accuse neither oneself nor others shows that one's education is complete.
Epictetus"



Never in any case say I have lost such a thing, but I have returned it. Is your child dead? It is a return. Is your wife dead? It is a return. Are you deprived of your estate? Is not this also a return?
Epictetus


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11942812 -

one of many (more than 12) meditations that buddha contrived to help people understand life better was the meditation on death.
impermanence.
this meditation type is quite valuable in a balanced program of meditation.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11943081 -

Actually I'm still waiting for a link to back your assertions.

this meditation type is quite valuable in a balanced program of meditation.

Just don't forget the other 11 food groups.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11944632 -

which of my thousands of assertive statements need bolstering for you?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11944660 -

Don't play dumb. I asked you three times.

but only to embiggen that part of your self which must be neglected for you so to be fixated on death.

this is a known physiological side effect of lack of sex -
a person gets so distracted they think they're gonna die
they embiggen the idea of death!
it's just sex addiction!

you know that,
and if you don't your winkie does.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11951004 -

Icelander, what is so different about a sex drive than your death anxiety drive? Neither are a substantial theories, and to my understanding, RGVs just showed a reflection of your theory. Although I cannot know RGV's intent, I can say that I am not speaking about anything personal or psychological, as I will attempt to explain.

Whatever the case, do you actually think death anxiety drive, is any less of a psychoanalytical remark than sex drive?

The problem is, death anxiety should have its own net analogous  to "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". Of course a cigar refers to the phallus, and by that sex drive, while death has no such object, as we have discussed before. This is small detail, much more interesting than problematic to my following argument. I will make the case that the rhetorical weight of death anxiety naturally mirrors the sex drive.

To reconcile the equal of both theories, call your attention to a recent thread of mine that juxtaposed genealogy and evolution. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11540541#11540541. As I recall, you did not grasp my premise for one reason or another, and announced that I was fleeing the debate, much like RGVs is being blamed for here. Also, an interesting side story to this is that I derived this particular idea from RGVs, if only a very small seed of my understanding, which I would have given more credit to him for if I wasn't so sure at the time that I would misrepresent him.

So if you like, consider these entangled communications, as I will now refer to what seems to me to be entanglement in your philosophy.

Quote:
Yeah sex and death. Perceived by some, sex is the solution to death. All this male heir nonsense to carry on ones name as a sort of immortality. Or just to lose oneself  in the flow state of the sexual act or the pursuit and lust itself. Great shield for death anxiety.:thumbup:



Although this is all mixed up to me, you get at the essence of the problem. This bolded remark is precisely what I mean by the inherent problem with substance oriented genealogy, or in other words, the problems with representing evolution by western ontology. Or even as it is represented in art, this is like hamlet concerning the "authentic" genealogy of the king. You at least point out this morbid occupation with the king, but what about fair Ophelia?

The problem is that these representations are not pervasive enough to account for the being that must underlie genealogy. By being we are speaking of the process, or flow of evolution. (So why couldn't hamlet act, even after he revealed the kings genitive corruption? )

Hierarchical schemes are biased to their seated branches, no matter how extensively they are represented. This is evident in that their jutted branches do not present a flow of existence, but represent a jutted interval. This shorthand has its inherent problems. Or, this humanistic (other to animal) understanding of time, disposes us to a temporal representation of evolution, in a logistic sphere where it is impossible to represent the flowing process of being. But this is even manifest in the world for instance, in the generally flowing existence of animals, compared to the human that leaps distances by intervals of their soft and hard technology (techne) of the mind.

But to our representation, specifically, what are these intervals?

They are the human representations of sex or death, whether new branch juts out, or a line ends. They are both equally the representations, as the ostensible consummations of existence. Both sex and death, as representations, are equally contrary to the flow. Even while we may weigh them quite heavily as the drives of particular organisms in a genealogy, this does not substantiate an absolute condition of being. The speculation towards a sexual act or death, does not reveal the meaning of their consummation. Neither sex nor death are substantial to debate, their meaning is not represented in argument, however compelling it may be.

I do not think you can prove your theory, any more than RGVs might. By virtue of representation (dream) Freud can point every dream to sex, just as you will point towards death anxiety. In theory, not substance.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11951023 -

Icelander, what is so different about a sex drive than your death anxiety drive?

It's about what precedes what. IMO sex addiction is due to death anxiety and not the other way around.

I'm not addressing the rest of your post because I didn't read it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11951078 -



Hmm so I guess you could say I'm the middle one...

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11951084 -

daytripper23 said:
I do not think you can prove your theory, any more than RGVs might. By virtue of representation (dream) Freud can point every dream to sex, just as you will point towards death anxiety. In theory, not substance.


It's an unverifiable theory.  Great post though.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11951149 -

you want me to find references on the web about your winkie?
I remember things I should never have seen, but no links sorry.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11951168 -

I want you to back up claims you make, and not make off hand statements as if they are fact and then cut and run when someone asks you to support those claims.:thumbdown:

I remember things I  never have seen,

fixed


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (02/02/10 09:58 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: daytripper23]
    #11951458 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11951594 -

Icelander said:
Well lets go into this (in simple terms please). What would cause you anxiety if you were immortal? No death decay disfigurement, all the time in the world to put any problem off. No survival issues. Now how much would make you anxious?


Give a couple examples if you have them.



Even as an immortal you'd still have human wants and desires.

Thinking of Maslow's heirarchy of needs.  Even if you take out survival needs.  We still have 4 other needs that we need fulfilled.  Not having those needs met creates anxiety.

  I'm immortal, I'm lonely = anxiety
  ----"----------, I'm horny = anxiety
  ----"----------, I'm homeless= anxiety

Simplest explanation I've got.


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11951904 -

Quote:
yeah, might be difficult to prove (depends on criteria), but RGV didn't suggest a theory. He dodged debate for what I see as two reasons: he has no direct solutions for the matter and because he thinks the topic should be dissolved. Either way it's in bad faith to circumvent the issue and not at least admit that you're circumventing it.



I can see my intent was misdirected in that post. I don't quite understand whats going on here.

But might the misunderstanding be due that the process-metaphysics of Buddhism remains (literally) silent on ontological matters? Whether or not this is strategic, buddhism is not a substantialist doctrine.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11951911 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by rebus_minus (02/03/10 12:05 AM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11951952 -

Icelander, how could death anxiety precede sex drive?

While animals show fear, they don't have a tangible death anxiety, as we may.

They definitely have a sex drive though.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11951972 -

rebus_minus said:
I also wonder where curiosity and seeking the "unknown" fit into the picture. Why did I leave a secure job behind to travel if death could be most efficiently avoided by staying put?

I guess you could say curiosity as a trait was developed evolutionary as a form of survival mechanism, but wouldn't this mean that evolution would have developed in us (or at least in certain individuals) a balance between the fear of death and the seeking of novelty?


You're making an assumption when you say death is "most efficiently avoided by staying put."  Death is NEVER efficiently avoided.  It's impossible.  Let the millions of innocents killed in wars attest to that.

I don't understand what you mean by "a balance between the fear of death and the seeking of novelty" to reply to that part.


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11951976 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11952008 -

rebus_minus said:
I should have said postponed.

If I have a steady income and safe living conditions the odds for survival are better than if I live as a hobo.

Seeking novelty... Mountain climbing, tripping, living on the edge.


I don't see the relationship between extremely novel actions/original ideas and the fear of death.


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11952025 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11952040 -

double tap post deleted

Edited by youbreakyoubuy (02/03/10 12:41 AM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11952042 -

I don't see a contradiction because I wouldn't classify all novel experiences as risky behavior.


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11952764 -

daytripper23 said:
Icelander, how could death anxiety precede sex drive?

While animals show fear, they don't have a tangible death anxiety, as we may.

They definitely have a sex drive though.



We were taking about sex addiction. Learn to read.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11952771 -

I also wonder where curiosity and seeking the "unknown" fit into the picture. Why did I leave a secure job behind to travel if death could be most efficiently avoided by staying put?


I can see it but it's my guess of course. Death anxiety is avoided with shields. Boredom gives one time to contemplate internal states. Being distracted with new and novel things and getting into flow states brings one into the present and distracting moment.


And challenging life with risky behaviors is never done by the guy who thinks he isn't going to make it. It's done by the guy who wants to feel invincible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952775 -

What did Becker succumb to?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11952785 -

You mean die from?

He had shields like everyone. I think he recommended an unhealthy shield for death anxiety in the end. Blind faith or religious faith. Even though he showed how it was a shield for death anxiety.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952835 -

I think blind faith is great if it really works on an unconscious level but IMO there are very few if any who can actually do that.

So you were saying maybe in the end the Buddhas shields failed and it was all talk? I'm not entirely sure where your coming from, just trying to get a better understanding of what you meant.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11952853 -

What? Blind faith is easy for many many millions of humans.

No didn't say that about Buddha.

But I was referring to religious belief. He may have broadened his psychological insights into the religious culture of his time.  I was just speculating a bit based on a lot of the religious and superstitious trappings of Buddhism. I do think his original revelations were free of that.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952865 -

I don't know if people could truly believe that their spirits were going to live on then they wouldn't have death anxiety. If I could have an entheogenic experience strong enough to truly convince me I was going to live on then I would take that oppurtunity in a second, that's what I meant about it working on an unconscious level too.

No didn't say that about Buddha. May have used shields too and so was only "enlightened" in the sense that he knew it.

Right, I see but if he thought all his suffering had gone then surely he meant on an unconscious level too? This would mean his POV was very different from Beckers. I haven't really read that much of the Buddha though so I'm not that familiar with his POV.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11952883 -

unconscious means just that. We cannot fully know what goes on unconsciously. We can notice our actions and if they conflict with stated objectives infer unconscious interference but we really can't know all the details.  Not even sure they conceptualized the unconscious mind back then.

Buddha was of course a figure of myth although as a man we know he existed. What he actually knew we will never be able to tell. Was he enlightened? Because he knew the root cause of suffering did he never get caught up in suffering himself? All unanswered questions.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952905 -

unconscious means just that. We cannot fully know what goes on unconsciously. We can notice our actions and if they conflict with stated objectives infer unconscious interference but we really can't know all the details.  Not even sure they conceptualized the unconscious mind back then.

You can still tell how your unconscious affects your conscious as it is still a part of the mind. I've never met any religious people who don't seem neurotic and if Becker was right then this would absolve the neuroticism if they actually believed that the soul would carry on after life on the unconscious level.

Buddha was of course a figure of myth although as a man we know he existed. What he actually knew we will never be able to tell. Was he enlightened? Because he knew the root cause of suffering did he never get caught up in suffering himself? All unanswered questions.

:thumbup: and it's a shame.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11952950 -

You can still tell how your unconscious affects your conscious as it is still a part of the mind.

Isn't that what I just stated in what you  quoted above. And I don't know anyone who is aware of all the ways the unconscious is effecting us.

absolve the neuroticism if they actually believed that the soul would carry on after life on the unconscious level.

I can't make sense of this statement so you better explain it in another way. Are we absolved of our behaviors because they are shields? No not imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952980 -

IMO there is a difference between a shield against a problem and a direct solving of the problem. If one truly believes in the after life then there is no death anxiety to "shield" against, don't you agree?

Isn't that what I just stated in what you  quoted above. And I don't know anyone who is aware of all the ways the unconscious is effecting us.

Yes you did already state that, I was just using it as a lead on to the following statement.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11953244 -


IMO there is a difference between a shield against a problem and a direct solving of the problem. If one truly believes in the after life then there is no death anxiety to "shield" against, don't you agree?

No I don't agree. I have always held the belief that a shield never solves the core problem of death but instead distracts one from the problem. This distraction is often in the form of a faith belief. Now it's arguable how much people actually believe in their unprovable beliefs. If my theory is correct they ultimately don't and have to go to great lengths to bolster those beliefs in various ways such as ignoring or condemning opposing evidence, demanding that others believe in their religion via politics and patriotism etc, or only associating with the like minded. So imo one believes in an after life, or a god, or a great spirit, or whatever, (ever notice how many "whatevers" there are out there?) because of death anxiety since there is often or always no rational or proven evidence for these beliefs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953477 -

Quote:
Now it's arguable how much people actually believe in their unprovable beliefs. If my theory is correct they ultimately don't and have to go to great lengths to bolster those beliefs in various ways such as ignoring or condemning opposing evidence, demanding that others believe in their religion via politics and patriotism etc, or only associating with the like minded. So imo one believes in an after life, or a god, or a great spirit, or whatever, (ever notice how many "whatevers" there are out there?) because of death anxiety since there is often or always no rational or proven evidence for these beliefs.


This is what I meant when I said very few if any are really capable of blind faith and if I had an experience that could allow me to fully believe I would take in an instant. I agree that most faith is a shield but what I am disagreeing with is that if one were to be able to have faith that works on all levels then this would ultimately be a great way to deal with death anxiety however I am sceptical that any can truly attain this level of faith.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953510 -

Some relevant brain biology for you Iceman

Brain structure:
Hypothalamus

Functions:
  • Regulation of the endorcrine system (hormones related to the four F's: Fighting, fleeing, feeding, and fucking)
  • Temperature
  • Hunger and Thirst
  • Defense Reactions (automatic reactions to threat, i.e. hair raising on a cat)
  • Sexual behaviors


That last one is a biggy. You cut out the hypothalamus, you will witness no sexual behaviors. The same is true for hunger. You legion the hypothalamus (a very specific nucleus within it actaully) and you will get no hunger response. You can set whatever delicious food you want in front of a rat with this part legioned, and they will not eat it.

So, simply enough, this is what gives us our sex drive, and this is what gives us our hunger. Without these, nothing says "eat" or "fuck", nothing says "flee" or "fight". Without this part of the brain, everything else in the system fails.

But we're not interested in just those sensations, we're also interested in how they interact with emotions and memory. Because we don't just eat anything that is set in front of us. We eat what we know tastes good, and avoid those things that we know don't. We don't startle at every stimuli, we startle at those that we know can harm us. Knowing that the removal of the hypothalamus will remove any startle response is not going to tell us why we startle only at specific stimuli. It simply tells us where it originates.

The hypothalamus has inputs into the thalamus where it meets up with inputs from the amygdala. The amygdala seems to be related to our interpretation of stimuli as fear invoking ,or not, in accordance with memory. So if we have a memory that suggests "this is scary" the amygdala is going to send the appropriate signals. You legion this part, and fear disappears. So the interaction between the amygdala saying "this is to be feared" and the hypothalamus which says "start the endocrine system" results in our bodily sensations of fearful stimuli. Then this information is passed on to the prefrontal cortex which makes a decision. What do I do with this information? I now know 1) my body is ready to act and 2) something I know I should fear is present

In other words, legion either of those parts of the brain and a fear of death does not exist. Moreover, I can not imagine that they are activated without the presence of something to fear. What we fear can vary greatly from person to person, and often times has no relation to death at all. For example, in social phobia, the amygdala will be activated due to the associated memory of prior social interactions. This will start the fear response and all those anxiety symptoms will quickly emerge. The same process occurs for someone with a gun held to their head. It is possible that some individuals find thoughts of death to be anxiety provoking, just as a social situation can produce thoughts that do the same, but there must be something associated with it.

Perhaps a memory of extreme pain being associated with death, or something that is to be feared from the experience of death (isolation, unknown, whatever). I'm sure that expectations about what death represents is enough to spur a reaction. So yes, in a sense these "shields" you talk about could be ways of avoiding the activation of this system. But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death or faced with the potential of dying. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it (old age, extreme danger, posts about it, etc.). Plus other thoughts can trigger the very same system. It is not a unique phenomena of human experience.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (02/03/10 10:45 AM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953551 -

Shield what? The most basic treatise of Buddhism is not-self.

You are asserting and conditioning the self by the idea of its annihilation.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953566 -

Interesting stuff. I'll run it by V and she can explain it to me.:lol:

So yes, in a sense these "shields" you talk about could be ways of avoiding the activation of this system. But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it (old age, extreme danger, posts about it, etc.).

I believe that a reason we don't think about death all the time is we push it into the unconscious. Death is the biggie. How could one not think about it all the time. You could die at any moment? But one has to not think about it to stay sane and get on with life. So shields, and pushing that trauma underground would ultimately be the best shield.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11953588 -

daytripper23 said:
Shield what? The most basic treatise of Buddhism is not-self.

You are asserting and conditioning the self by the idea of its annihilation.



The idea of not self is the shield. No self, no death.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11953608 -

Quote:
But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death or faced with the potential of dying. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it.


There are a ton of situations in life which could provoke thoughts of death. The examples you provide are a very limited range of these situations. Unless, of course you disagree with the idea of the unconscious mind and think all thoughts have to flitter across the mind consciously to have any impact on the psyche I can't see why you would disagree with the idea of death anxiety affecting us given the rest of your post.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953644 -

Icelander said:
Interesting stuff. I'll run it by V and she can explain it to me.:lol:

So yes, in a sense these "shields" you talk about could be ways of avoiding the activation of this system. But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it (old age, extreme danger, posts about it, etc.).

I believe that a reason we don't think about death all the time is we push it into the unconscious. Death is the biggie. How could one not think about it all the time. You could die at any moment? But one has to not think about it to stay sane and get on with life. So shields, and pushing that trauma underground would ultimately be the best shield.


I don't buy the unconscious bit because I don't think there is anything inherent in death to fear. We attach meaning to death, and that is what we fear. And we can consciously know what meaning we attach to death. Otherwise the fear of death only arises when sufficient stimuli are present to spur a response.

Much in the same way that a person who is afraid of spiders may have the potential to run into a spider at any given point of time, the fear is not always present. It only becomes present when a spider is around, or when they are thinking of a spider, etc.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11953662 -

Grapefruit said:
Quote:
But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death or faced with the potential of dying. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it.


There are a ton of situations in life which could provoke thoughts of death.


Care to give me an example?

Quote:
The examples you provide are a very limited range of these situations.


Yeah, I recognize that. I'm not going to list everything that people can become afraid of. It still relies upon a process of association, though. You don't come to fear driving just because it has the potential to kill you. You come to fear driving after you get into an accident which spurs the knowledge, holy shit, I could have died. Or you witness a brutal car accident, etc. 

edit: And from what we know of association, they can strengthen or weaken over time, depending on how predictive they are. So the associated fear of death when driving will either strengthen (you get in another wreck) or weaken (you drive for a year without anything happening). At that point, the association weakens, which means that your amygdala has no reason to be activated while driving. Meaning you have no fear related to death at that point in time.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953664 -

Death and impermanence are everywhere, damn near constantly. Didn't you notice?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11953669 -

The heart that you feel beating, the tree near; you see wilting. Death is the very fabric of life.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11953682 -

Yeah, but until it is predictive of something, it don't mean shit to you nor your brain. If you want to project yourself years into the future, that's fine. You can feel fear that has no reason to be. Doesn't bother me a bit. I'll stick to keeping myself here and now, and thus, feeling it when it happens in the now.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953705 -

Kickle said:
Icelander said:
Interesting stuff. I'll run it by V and she can explain it to me.:lol:

So yes, in a sense these "shields" you talk about could be ways of avoiding the activation of this system. But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it (old age, extreme danger, posts about it, etc.).

I believe that a reason we don't think about death all the time is we push it into the unconscious. Death is the biggie. How could one not think about it all the time. You could die at any moment? But one has to not think about it to stay sane and get on with life. So shields, and pushing that trauma underground would ultimately be the best shield.


I don't buy the unconscious bit because I don't think there is anything inherent in death to fear. We attach meaning to death, and that is what we fear. And we can consciously know what meaning we attach to death. Otherwise the fear of death only arises when sufficient stimuli are present to spur a response.

Much in the same way that a person who is afraid of spiders may have the potential to run into a spider at any given point of time, the fear is not always present. It only becomes present when a spider is around, or when they are thinking of a spider, etc.



I think you and I have been over this. If you don't agree then you don't. :shrug: I'm not out to convince you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953721 -

But I am out to convince you :evil2:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953732 -

Then you need to try harder. I think we are more run by unconscious motivation then conscious.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953738 -

I show V your post on brain function.

Yes, he is correctly describing the functions of the hypothalamus and amygdala.  However, his "theory" that humans are rarely confronted with evidence of mortality is absurd to the extreme.  Death anxiety can certainly be intensified by overt reminders of death, but one cannot avoid the internal awareness of mortality unless one has never realized it in the first place.

It is this internal awareness which fuels death anxiety, and we carry it with us wherever we go.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953754 -

I don't disagree about there being an unconscious.
I disagree that the unconscious can influence our brain without first going through conscious awareness (in some form).


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953759 -

Quote:
Yeah, but until it is predictive of something, it don't mean shit to you nor your brain. If you want to project yourself years into the future, that's fine. You can feel fear that has no reason to be. Doesn't bother me a bit. I'll stick to keeping myself here and now, and thus, feeling it when it happens in the now.


Fair enough if you can do that, sorry on the passive agression, it happens.



I'm sitting on the banks watchin' life drift away...


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953773 -

Icelander said:
I show V your post on brain function.

Yes, he is correctly describing the functions of the hypothalamus and amygdala.  However, his "theory" that humans are rarely confronted with evidence of mortality is absurd to the extreme.  Death anxiety can certainly be intensified by overt reminders of death, but one cannot avoid the internal awareness of mortality unless one has never realized it in the first place.

It is this internal awareness which fuels death anxiety, and we carry it with us wherever we go.




Perhaps my "theory" was misunderstood.
I'm not suggesting that we don't know we're mortal at any given point and time. I'm suggesting that it does not invoke any form of anxiety until it reaches levels of predictability. When it becomes predictive, the amygdala either runs on information from the hypothalamus which suggests DO SOMETHING or draws on a related memory/association and the appropriate brain functions are activated, giving the sensation of fear/anxiety/whatever you want to call fight/flight responses.

That is what the spider bit was all about. A person never "forgets" they are afraid of spiders, but without the amygdala being activated, no fear is felt. It requires conscious thought or external stimulation before a response is issued from the brain.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (02/03/10 11:46 AM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953808 -


That is what the spider bit was all about. A person never "forgets" they are afraid of spiders, but without the amygdala being activated, no fear is felt. It requires conscious thought or external stimulation before a response is issued from the brain.

OK but reminders abound as was pointed out.  Nature and decay, aging and dying parents and friends, news reports, etc. We pretend not to notice because it is everywhere. Anxiety may be a better term then overt fear. I felt constant anxiety as a kid. Yet I still got my homework done and no one seemed to notice.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11953828 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953861 -

:shrug:
Someone with social phobia might say the same thing about the world around them. There are constant reminders that they may have to interact with someone else.

Does this make it an inescapable reality?

They fear social interactions, and then by extension, see something to fear in anything that reminds them of this. Others may not find these cues so frightening. Why is this? Because these other stimuli do not hold fear within them. The individual who fears social situations brings that fear with them.

Death is all around us, but it doesn't hold any meaning unless it is effecting you in some way. For myself, it spurs anxiety when it threatens well-being to my body. That is what I bring with me, a fear of pain. For others, due to the meaning they have attributed to death (just as a shield attributes meaning) they may fear the mere thought of it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (02/03/10 12:02 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953874 -

Ok so obviously the teachings are not enlightenment itself. You can deny the doctrine, but I would then take issue as to how you reference ideas as if from the intrinsic teachings, as if some kind of pseudo-buddhism was an option in this respect.

Quotes taken from Buddhist Philosophy, Essential Readings:


Quote:
Not-Self teaching is not a bald denial of Self, but a persistent
undermining of any attempt to take anything as “Self,” and thus be
attached to it. It is a contemplative strategy to induce, in the end, a letting
go of everything. To reduce it to a bald “there is no Self” would be to shortcircuit
this process. Indeed, the Buddha was once directly asked “Is there a
s/Self?” to which he responded with silence, as he did to “Is there no s/Self?”
(S. IV.400–401). After the questioner had left, he explained that if he had said
“There is a s/Self,” this would have been to side with the eternalists, and
contradicted his knowledge that “all dhammas are not-Self.” To have said
“There is no s/Self,” would have been to side with the annihilationists, and
make the confused questioner think that he had lost a s/Self he previously
had.



-  Theravada Philosophy of Mind and the Person

Quote:
The following selection from the Sam· yutta-nika¯ya shows that rather than
deny metaphysics, the Dhamma urges one to understand how things are. It
instructs one to avoid wrong views (dit·t·hi), particularly the two extremes
of existence and non-existence that are oftentimes referred to as eternalism
and annihilationism.4 Instead, one should contemplate through meditative
practice the middle way between these two extremes, and the middle way is
articulated in terms of dependent origination and not-self.:

“ ‘All exists’: Kacca¯na, this is one extreme. ‘All does not exist’: this is
the second extreme. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the
Tatha¯gata teaches the Dhamma by the middle: ‘With ignorance as condition,
volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition,
consciousness [comes to be] . . . name-and-form . . . the six sense-bases . . . contact
. . . feeling . . . craving . . . clinging . . . existence . . . birth . . . aging-and-death
[come to be]. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with
the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation
of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations,
cessation of consciousness . . . ’ Such is the cessation of this whole mass of
suffering.”


- Metaphysics and Ontology

So again, I see if you disagree with this, but the intrinsic views of Buddhism are not accessible as you consider them from the point of view of annihilationism. You are not representing buddhist discourse here. This would explain a certain silence you encounter, when the framework of your questioning simply does not have access or reference to an ostensible Buddha or Buddhism.

The death anxiety you speak of, in its substantial demand and imposition, upholds a strict and absolute ontological self by the unheeded speculation of its annihilation. Buddhism on the other hand refers to a conditioned self (i.e by process metaphysics), which followers acknowledge as their fundamental ignorance.

The former conception can never realize its ideal. Death can only be a constant nag, never to be consummated in the world. Further, such a conception of death can only condition the self in its manner.

The latter, coming from the perspective of acknowledged ignorance, might be mistaken as inordinate idealism. But unlike annihilation, its route to realizing not-self can be realized in this world, and in respect to a secular teaching. Accordingly, the Self is considered a delusion, and not self is actual reality.

Edited by daytripper23 (02/03/10 01:43 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11953964 -

rebus_minus said:
Icelander said:
...getting into flow states brings one into the present and distracting moment.



the distracting moment?



Yes, in a flow state one is in the moment and distracted from death anxiety.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11954032 -

Anxiety is NOT the same thing as fear:

"Anxiety is a generalized mood condition that occurs without an identifiable triggering stimulus. As such, it is distinguished from fear, which occurs in the presence of an observed threat. Additionally, fear is related to the specific behaviors of escape and avoidance, whereas anxiety is the result of threats that are perceived to be uncontrollable or unavoidable.[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety


This from V.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11954095 -

Quote:
Anxiety is a generalized mood condition that occurs without an identifiable triggering stimulus


I strongly disagree with such a definition. If this were the case, anxiety disorders would be impossible to treat. Psychologists identify and modify the maintaining conditions [see triggering stimuli] of anxiety all the time.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: daytripper23]
    #11954142 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11954147 -

Oh well maybe wikipedia is wrong.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954151 -

rebus_minus said:
Good post, daytripper. This is what I tried to get at earlier, but it was overlooked (maybe I didn't explain myself well enough).

Why use the Buddha in this thread if one thinks his teachings are unrealistic in  the first place?

Ice even included a quote saying "seek final peace."



I don't think all his teaching are unrealistic.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11954166 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954190 -

I can never understand what he's saying so I usually avoid his posts. Why don't you say it and then I'll debate it with you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11954209 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954214 -

Call it what you want. I have stated this in other threads several times. If you don't like it lump it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11954219 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954230 -

Your English is fine. Just put the idea in simple lay terms and I will respond. I've asked him several times to do this and he actually did it once and I understood him and responded.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11954235 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954258 -

I did and I thought I already addressed it.

I think no thought is impossible as a lifestyle. Same for past lives, the continuation of consciousness past death and lots of other shit Buddhists believe. I was basically referring to his initial realization about suffering and attachment.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11954270 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by rebus_minus (02/03/10 01:11 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954299 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954333 -

"selfing" interests me as well.

For whatever reason :shrug:, it makes me think of this vid:


Particularly around the 2 min mark.


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Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954411 -

rebus_minus said:
i am interested in 'selfing' as a verb. how we make a self around any and everything, and how this can be gradually let go of by repeated effort.

can't hurt to try. i saw a documentary on leonard cohen yesterday night where he talked about what he learnt from staying with his teacher, a japanese roshi. he said the less he became the better he felt.



Becoming less would feel good. Less anxiety and worry and fear. Becoming nothing would solve the problem completely. No more death anxiety. But the fact is it seems, we are something.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11954496 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954663 -

I don't think its about getting rid of conditioning, thats impossible, almost everything that makes up a 'human being' consists of conditioning, except one part, awareness, awareness is never conditioned, so if anything meditation is not to get rid of conditioning, but to see through it with awareness to the extent that conditioning no longer defines who you feel you are

Icelander said:
Becoming less would feel good. Less anxiety and worry and fear. Becoming nothing would solve the problem completely. No more death anxiety. But the fact is it seems, we are something.



Thats beautiful


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Chronic7]
    #11954693 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954776 -

I feel that what people refer to as samadhi is the experience of pure awareness


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Chronic7]
    #11954795 -

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954839 -

:grin: many times, always infact

It may sound confusing or irritating, but id say you experience samadhi all the time, perhaps unconsciously
What people call the samadhi experience is experiencing awareness consciously.

We are always awareness, but not always aware that we are awareness.
What i mean is that the perfect state is always there as the undercurrent of our being, but we are aware of so many temporary things 'out there', we miss whats always 'here'


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: Chronic7]
    #11954873 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Edited by rebus_minus (02/03/10 02:48 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11954926 -

At first it seems you are a person who has glimpses of experiencing the infinte
Eventually you come to see you are the infinite who is experiencing being a person

Like this samadhi seems at first like a passing experience of altered consciousness
Eventually you see that samadhi is unaltered consciousness & that what we take to be 'normal' mental states are infact the altered states

Samadhi is to be in the most natural state of being, infinite perfection


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Chronic7]
    #11954968 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11955028 -

Im pretty sure i said its impossible to 'get rid of' conditioning, transcendence isn't about getting rid of anything really, its just about going beyond things, seeing through conditioning, that is totally possible!

Samadhi is like a feelingless feeling, a stateless state, it can't ever be fully described really, its fun trying though, i could describe it for hours to you if you were sat here next to me


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Chronic7]
    #11955042 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11955045 -

beleive me about what?


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Chronic7]
    #11955075 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11955153 -

Nirvikalpa samadhi is the state of total absorption, if i close my eyes & go into meditation then that is my experience
Sahaja samadhi is what i experience all the time, the natural state
Theres no proof of anyones experience


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Edited by Chronic7 (02/03/10 03:20 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Chronic7]
    #11955241 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11955276 -

He had brain damage during birth and this allows it. It's basically impossible unless you have such a lucky experience.:sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11955317 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11955335 -

My brain was damaged from being on earth with other humans.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11955376 -

rebus_minus said:
you make it all sound too simple to achieve.



Its nothing, literally, not even an acheivement really


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Chronic7]
    #11955519 -

You did it in your sleep.:lol:

If it's so fucking easy they how come all those buddhist's aren't enlightened and you're still hanging around guru's?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11955616 -

I havent seen Mooji for a good few months, hes in India & i don't usually go to the big satsangs anymore, but if he calls me up for tea for sure ill go see him, what a wonderful opportunity as far as i see it :shrug:

My impression was that many Buddhists possibly are enlightened?
I didnt realize their all erratically still searching the globe for peace, i thought most of em had found it...


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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Chronic7]
    #11955749 -

daytripper's post was a pretty good one for reinforcing the middle way and defusing extreme reasoning by observing dependent origination (pratyekkha sambhahava), but I really have to commend you all for working out your anxieties and flogging this problem to death.

what makes a person the weakest link at debate?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Chronic7]
    #11955756 -

Not the one's I know. They go to the temple, they meditate, they whine and complain, get anxious, and get divorced  like everyone else. If they're enlightened, I'm enlightened.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11955777 -

what makes a person the weakest link at debate?

Being disingenuous, refusing to provide evidence of claims, ducking and running. You know the usual true believer shit. Recognize it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11955836 -

you mean turning the other cheek?
i must be a worm


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11955855 -

Not your style.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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