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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11951952 -

Icelander, how could death anxiety precede sex drive?

While animals show fear, they don't have a tangible death anxiety, as we may.

They definitely have a sex drive though.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11951972 -

rebus_minus said:
I also wonder where curiosity and seeking the "unknown" fit into the picture. Why did I leave a secure job behind to travel if death could be most efficiently avoided by staying put?

I guess you could say curiosity as a trait was developed evolutionary as a form of survival mechanism, but wouldn't this mean that evolution would have developed in us (or at least in certain individuals) a balance between the fear of death and the seeking of novelty?


You're making an assumption when you say death is "most efficiently avoided by staying put."  Death is NEVER efficiently avoided.  It's impossible.  Let the millions of innocents killed in wars attest to that.

I don't understand what you mean by "a balance between the fear of death and the seeking of novelty" to reply to that part.


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Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11951976 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11952008 -

rebus_minus said:
I should have said postponed.

If I have a steady income and safe living conditions the odds for survival are better than if I live as a hobo.

Seeking novelty... Mountain climbing, tripping, living on the edge.


I don't see the relationship between extremely novel actions/original ideas and the fear of death.


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Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11952025 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11952040 -

double tap post deleted

Edited by youbreakyoubuy (02/03/10 12:41 AM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11952042 -

I don't see a contradiction because I wouldn't classify all novel experiences as risky behavior.


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Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11952764 -

daytripper23 said:
Icelander, how could death anxiety precede sex drive?

While animals show fear, they don't have a tangible death anxiety, as we may.

They definitely have a sex drive though.



We were taking about sex addiction. Learn to read.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11952771 -

I also wonder where curiosity and seeking the "unknown" fit into the picture. Why did I leave a secure job behind to travel if death could be most efficiently avoided by staying put?


I can see it but it's my guess of course. Death anxiety is avoided with shields. Boredom gives one time to contemplate internal states. Being distracted with new and novel things and getting into flow states brings one into the present and distracting moment.


And challenging life with risky behaviors is never done by the guy who thinks he isn't going to make it. It's done by the guy who wants to feel invincible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952775 -

What did Becker succumb to?


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11952785 -

You mean die from?

He had shields like everyone. I think he recommended an unhealthy shield for death anxiety in the end. Blind faith or religious faith. Even though he showed how it was a shield for death anxiety.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952835 -

I think blind faith is great if it really works on an unconscious level but IMO there are very few if any who can actually do that.

So you were saying maybe in the end the Buddhas shields failed and it was all talk? I'm not entirely sure where your coming from, just trying to get a better understanding of what you meant.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11952853 -

What? Blind faith is easy for many many millions of humans.

No didn't say that about Buddha.

But I was referring to religious belief. He may have broadened his psychological insights into the religious culture of his time.  I was just speculating a bit based on a lot of the religious and superstitious trappings of Buddhism. I do think his original revelations were free of that.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952865 -

I don't know if people could truly believe that their spirits were going to live on then they wouldn't have death anxiety. If I could have an entheogenic experience strong enough to truly convince me I was going to live on then I would take that oppurtunity in a second, that's what I meant about it working on an unconscious level too.

No didn't say that about Buddha. May have used shields too and so was only "enlightened" in the sense that he knew it.

Right, I see but if he thought all his suffering had gone then surely he meant on an unconscious level too? This would mean his POV was very different from Beckers. I haven't really read that much of the Buddha though so I'm not that familiar with his POV.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11952883 -

unconscious means just that. We cannot fully know what goes on unconsciously. We can notice our actions and if they conflict with stated objectives infer unconscious interference but we really can't know all the details.  Not even sure they conceptualized the unconscious mind back then.

Buddha was of course a figure of myth although as a man we know he existed. What he actually knew we will never be able to tell. Was he enlightened? Because he knew the root cause of suffering did he never get caught up in suffering himself? All unanswered questions.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952905 -

unconscious means just that. We cannot fully know what goes on unconsciously. We can notice our actions and if they conflict with stated objectives infer unconscious interference but we really can't know all the details.  Not even sure they conceptualized the unconscious mind back then.

You can still tell how your unconscious affects your conscious as it is still a part of the mind. I've never met any religious people who don't seem neurotic and if Becker was right then this would absolve the neuroticism if they actually believed that the soul would carry on after life on the unconscious level.

Buddha was of course a figure of myth although as a man we know he existed. What he actually knew we will never be able to tell. Was he enlightened? Because he knew the root cause of suffering did he never get caught up in suffering himself? All unanswered questions.

:thumbup: and it's a shame.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11952950 -

You can still tell how your unconscious affects your conscious as it is still a part of the mind.

Isn't that what I just stated in what you  quoted above. And I don't know anyone who is aware of all the ways the unconscious is effecting us.

absolve the neuroticism if they actually believed that the soul would carry on after life on the unconscious level.

I can't make sense of this statement so you better explain it in another way. Are we absolved of our behaviors because they are shields? No not imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11952980 -

IMO there is a difference between a shield against a problem and a direct solving of the problem. If one truly believes in the after life then there is no death anxiety to "shield" against, don't you agree?

Isn't that what I just stated in what you  quoted above. And I don't know anyone who is aware of all the ways the unconscious is effecting us.

Yes you did already state that, I was just using it as a lead on to the following statement.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11953244 -


IMO there is a difference between a shield against a problem and a direct solving of the problem. If one truly believes in the after life then there is no death anxiety to "shield" against, don't you agree?

No I don't agree. I have always held the belief that a shield never solves the core problem of death but instead distracts one from the problem. This distraction is often in the form of a faith belief. Now it's arguable how much people actually believe in their unprovable beliefs. If my theory is correct they ultimately don't and have to go to great lengths to bolster those beliefs in various ways such as ignoring or condemning opposing evidence, demanding that others believe in their religion via politics and patriotism etc, or only associating with the like minded. So imo one believes in an after life, or a god, or a great spirit, or whatever, (ever notice how many "whatevers" there are out there?) because of death anxiety since there is often or always no rational or proven evidence for these beliefs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953477 -

Quote:
Now it's arguable how much people actually believe in their unprovable beliefs. If my theory is correct they ultimately don't and have to go to great lengths to bolster those beliefs in various ways such as ignoring or condemning opposing evidence, demanding that others believe in their religion via politics and patriotism etc, or only associating with the like minded. So imo one believes in an after life, or a god, or a great spirit, or whatever, (ever notice how many "whatevers" there are out there?) because of death anxiety since there is often or always no rational or proven evidence for these beliefs.


This is what I meant when I said very few if any are really capable of blind faith and if I had an experience that could allow me to fully believe I would take in an instant. I agree that most faith is a shield but what I am disagreeing with is that if one were to be able to have faith that works on all levels then this would ultimately be a great way to deal with death anxiety however I am sceptical that any can truly attain this level of faith.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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